3083 replies to this topic

[Kalliste]

This Covid thing made me go back on C60 olive oil, have been looking for an excuse to do so ever since 2015. I managed to convince myself my past experience was simply placebo oriented. But being back on 2ml/day with some fatty food is pretty amazing. My gym workouts don't give fatigue and can be redone almost daily, I usually get very tired for 2-5 days (might be bad for hormesis in the long run) and my experience of wine and the powerful UV-b lamp changed a lot (harder to burn or get drunk).

This time I started the C60 after already being on fairly large (5-20g ascorbic acid mixed with water/day) doses since several weeks.

Still the effects of C60 clearly arrived on top of that, so it has to do something profound.

 

My rationale for C60 is it has quite a few anti-viral effects (have not checked ) of the fullerens but mostly wanting to have a good bio-incorporated antioxidant on site in case the viral fever hits me. The autopsies are not done yet but when this thing clears up I am convinved we will find out there was a huge pro-oxidative rampage going on in vivo when Covid kills people or rips up the lungs. I can't believe so many hospitals just give people 1000mg C-vitamin, or a few grams IV-C if you are lucky, and call it a day.

 

It will be hard to stop taking it, this stamina and vitality I have missed so much!

Maybe the effects will decrease as I deplete some stem cells or something... This isn't the C60 thread so I will stop it here.

 

If you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail, I speculated about myo-inositol a few pages back and these guys do too.

 

 

New Therapeutic Perspectives in Counteracting IL-6 Storm ReleaseThese preliminary data support the hypoth-esis of a causative role of IL-6 in driving the in-flammatory response that leads to morbidity and mortality in patients with COVID-19 who develop acute respiratory distress syndrome. Therefore, it has been proposed that monoclonal antibodies targeting IL-6 or drugs able to downregulate IL-6 may be effective in blocking inflammatory storms, therefore representing a potential treatment for se-vere COVID 19 patients. Some promising, albeit unconfirmed, clinical results have shown that to-cilizumab, a specific inhibitor of IL-6 receptor68, can significantly improve oxygenation and clinical outcome of Sars-CoV-2 patients69. However, IL-6 has a role in both the innate and adaptive immune responses that protect the host from a variety of infections. Clinical studies of IL-6 inhibitors, spe-cifically tocilizumab, revealed that their use is as-sociated with an increased rate of both serious and opportunistic infections generally observed with other non-IL-6-directed biologic therapies70. High concentrations of inositol (or its deriva-tives) in surfactant preparations mitigate key in-flammatory pathways in inflammatory lung dis-ease71. Inositol and its metabolites also decrease pulmonary edema after lung injury72. In an ani-mal model of Ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS) – a condition that in some instances can be characterized by life-threatening events, like acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), hypovolemia, ascites, edema, and thrombosis73 – myo-Ins was able to counteract the main clinical features, while significantly reducing a number of inflammatory signatures, including Vascular per-meability, VEGF and COX-2 expressions74.Moreover, inositol specifically down-regulates IL-6 levels42, PI3K75 (a key factor in the transduc-tion of IL-6 signal), as well as many inflammatory parameters – like PGE and COX276 – downstream of PI3K activation in different diseases like cancer and polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS). In this lat-ter condition, myo-Ins supplementation significantly reduces pro-inflammatory cytokines like IL-6 and p-STAT377. A general model has been proposed in which the chemo-protective effect of myo-Ins on lung functionality was directly linked to downregulation of IL-6 and modulation of the microenvironment

immune response78. Again, it should be stressed that myo-Ins administration – both through intravenous route and by oral supplementation – is almost com-pletely devoid of any significant adverse effect.Overall, these findings suggest that IL-6 is a major target of myo-Ins and raise the possibili-ty that Sars-CoV-2 patients with IL-6-driven in-flammation may benefit from myo-Ins treatment.Our laboratory already showed familiarity with the IL-6 release and the underlying mech-anisms that regulate it. Specifically, we showed that IL-6, as well as IL-1b, are epigenetically up-regulated by the hypomethylation of the gene pro-moter region in cell culture models and in human specimens from neurodegenerative disorders79-81. Unpublished preliminary results indicating that myo-Ins seems to exert epigenetic effects, suggest a possible mechanism of action in IL-6 regulation.Overall, these findings indicate that IL-6 is a major target of myo-inositol and raise the possi-bility that Sars-CoV-2 patients with a high level of IL-6-driven inflammation may show benefit from treatment with myo-inositol.

https://www.european...3426-3432-1.pdf

 

 

Quantitative Biology > Biomolecules

[Submitted on 3 Apr 2020]

In Silico Screening of Some Naturally Occurring Bioactive Compounds Predicts Potential Inhibitors against SARS-COV-2 (COVID-19) Protease

Ashok Kumar Mishra, Satya Prakash Tewari

SARS-COV-2 identified as COVID-19 in Wuhan city of China in the month of December, 2019 has now been declared as pandemic by World Health Organization whose transmission chain and cure both have emerged as a tough problem for the medical fraternity. The reports pertaining to the treatment of this pandemic are still lacking. We firmly believe that Nature itself provides a simple solution for any complicated problem created in it which motivated us to carry out In Silico investigations on some bioactive natural compounds reportedly found in the fruits and leaves of Anthocephalus Cadamba which is a miraculous plant found on the earth aiming to predict the potential inhibitors against aforesaid virus. Having modeled the ground state ligand structure of the such nine natural compounds applying density functional theory at B3LYP/631+G (d, p) level we have performed their molecular docking with SARS-COV-2 protease to calculate the binding affinity as well as to screen the binding at S-protein site during ligand-protein interactions. Out of these nine studied naturally occurring compounds; Oleanic Acid has been appeared to be potential inhibitor for COVID-19 followed by Ursolic Acid, IsoVallesiachotamine,Vallesiachotamine,Cadambine,Vincosamide-N-Oxide, Isodihydroamino-cadambine, Pentyle Ester of Chlorogenic Acid and D-Myo-Inositol. Hence these bioactive natural compounds or their structural analogs may be explored as anti-COVID19 drug agent which will be possessing the peculiar feature of cost-less synthesis and less or no side effect due to their natural occurrence. The solubility and solvent-effect related to the phytochemicals may be the point of concern. The In-vivo investigations on these proposed natural compounds or on their structural analogs are invited for designing and developing the potential medicine/vaccine for the treatment of COVID-19 pandemic.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2004.01634

 

 Hi,

 

Thanks for your answer,but I really don't think it's angina; I've had angina b4 I was placed on the BP medication,and the the symptoms were very different.

 

BTW, I'm in the Uk,and we only have ER,where you'd get the full works,or the GP offices where they don't keep much diagnostic equipment,but they're only talking on the phone to patients. Would a doc be able to diagnose fluid on the lungs without much equipment?

 

I don't think you should quit blood pressure meds. The data is inconclusive, here in Sweden they are saying it's possible those medicines will actually decrease mortality by quite a lot (3% on BP vs 10% without). I would add melatonin to your stack, it should not cause any damage whether it is the heart or the covid.

 

 

--

 

This might have been posted already. IIRC thats what melatonin does.

 

 

Kinins and Cytokines in COVID-19: A Comprehensive Pathophysiological Approach

Frank van de Veerdonk ^* , Mihai G. Netea , Marcel van Deuren , Jos W.M. van der Meer , Quirijn de Mast , Roger J. Bruggemann , Hans van der Hoeven

 

Version 1 : Received: 1 April 2020 / Approved: 3 April 2020 / Online: 3 April 2020 (04:13:43 CEST)

How to cite: van de Veerdonk, F.; Netea, M.G.; van Deuren, M.; van der Meer, J.W.; de Mast, Q.; Bruggemann, R.J.; van der Hoeven, H. Kinins and Cytokines in COVID-19: A Comprehensive Pathophysiological Approach. Preprints 2020, 2020040023 (doi: 10.20944/preprints202004.0023.v1). van de Veerdonk, F.; Netea, M.G.; van Deuren, M.; van der Meer, J.W.; de Mast, Q.; Bruggemann, R.J.; van der Hoeven, H. Kinins and Cytokines in COVID-19: A Comprehensive Pathophysiological Approach. Preprints 2020, 2020040023 (doi: 10.20944/preprints202004.0023.v1).

 

Abstract

Most striking observations in COVID-19 patients are the hints on pulmonary edema (also seen on CT scans as ground glass opacities), dry cough, fluid restrictions to prevent more severe hypoxia, the huge PEEP that is needed while lungs are compliant, and the fact that anti-inflammatory therapies are not powerful enough to counter the severity of the disease. We propose that the severity of the disease and many deaths are due to a local vascular problem due to activation of B1 receptors on endothelial cells in the lungs. SARS-CoV-2 enters the cell via ACE2, a cell membrane bound molecule with enzymatic activity that next to its role in RAS is needed to inactivate des-Arg⁹ bradykinin, the potent ligand of the bradykinin receptor type 1 (B1). In contrast to bradykinin receptor 2 (B2), the B1 receptor on endothelial cells is upregulated by proinflammatory cytokines. Without ACE2 acting as a guardian to inactivate the ligands of B1, the lung environment is prone for local vascular leakage leading to angioedema. Angioedema is likely a feature already early in disease, and might explain the typical CT scans and the feeling of people that they drown. In some patients, this is followed by a clinical worsening of disease around day 9 due to the formation antibodies directed against the spike (S)-antigen of the corona-virus that binds to ACE2 that could contribute to disease by enhancement of local immune cell influx and proinflammatory cytokines leading to damage. In parallel, inflammation induces more B1 expression, and possibly via antibody-dependent enhancement of viral infection leading to continued ACE2 dysfunction in the lung because of persistence of the virus. In this viewpoint we propose that a bradykinin-dependent local lung angioedema via B1 and B2 receptors is an important feature of COVID-19, resulting in a very high number of ICU admissions. We propose that blocking the B1 and B2 receptors might have an ameliorating effect on disease caused by COVID-19. This kinin-dependent pulmonary edema is resistant to corticosteroids or adrenaline and should be targeted as long as the virus is present. In addition, this pathway might indirectly be responsive to anti-inflammatory agents or neutralizing strategies for the anti-S-antibody induced effects, but by itself is likely to be insufficient to reverse all the pulmonary edema. Moreover, we provide a suggestion of how to ventilate in the ICU in the context of this hypothesis.

 

Edited by Kalliste, 21 April 2020 - 03:56 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

It looks like they are going to study the relationship between Vitamin D and Covid:

 

https://www.mirror.c...urvive-21895872

 

It is interesting that they state that....the "Public Health of England will soon advise the public to start taking a daily dose of Vitamin D."

 

Pure genius! Maybe we should put bandages on cuts, as well, but I'll wait for their official advice before taking any chances.
 

[joelcairo]

The overall healthy functioning of ALL the cells in the body is important when fighting disease. That's why I would be highly reluctant to avoid vitamin D or take up smoking just because of some of the proposed characteristics of this virus... without good clinical evidence, I mean. At best the results are likely to be biphasic, providing a benefit in some specific situations or at certain stages of the disease, and being harmful in other circumstances.

 

I have more experience researching cancer treatment than viral disease, but I feel the basic principle applies in both cases: If you're fighting disease by making the body's cells unhealthy or dysfunctional, you're probably doing it wrong. The best defense against both cancer and COVID-19 is likely to be rolling back one's biological age.

 

Edited by joelcairo, 21 April 2020 - 05:13 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

 Hi,

 

Thanks for your answer,but I really don't think it's angina; I've had angina b4 I was placed on the BP medication,and the the symptoms were very different.

 

BTW, I'm in the Uk,and we only have ER,where you'd get the full works,or the GP offices where they don't keep much diagnostic equipment,but they're only talking on the phone to patients. Would a doc be able to diagnose fluid on the lungs without much equipment?

 

Hmm strange. I really don't think you have COVID19, but I do think you need a workup. You might be able to buy a stethescope, then work with a doc on video conference to connect the mic to the earpiece (maybe just with your hand) in order to transmit your lung sounds. Or maybe even press the mic directly to particular spots on your chest while you cover it with a cupped hand during inhalation. Telecommuting has been suddenly thrust upon us, and we have to improvise.

 

I'd hate to send you to the ER, only to be stuck waiting for hours with insufficient PPE in a contaminated environment. If you can borrow a painting mask from someone, it might be good to have it on hand in case you end up having to go.
 

[resveratrol_guy]

The overall healthy functioning of ALL the cells in the body is important when fighting disease. That's why I would be highly reluctant to avoid vitamin D or take up smoking just because of some of the proposed characteristics of this virus... without good clinical evidence, I mean. At best the results are likely to be biphasic, providing a benefit in some specific situations or at certain stages of the disease, and being harmful in other circumstances.

 

I have more experience researching cancer treatment than viral disease, but I feel the basic principle applies in both cases: If you're fighting disease by making the body's cells unhealthy or dysfunctional, you're probably doing it wrong. The best defense against both cancer and COVID-19 is likely to be rolling back one's biological age.

 

Vitamin D is a no-brainer. The risk of vascular calcification is long term, and somewhat mitigated by sufficient intake of vitamin K2. I don't think it's a problem to take 1000 IU/d, ideally in liquid form, until we have a compelling treatment for serious patients. This should all be calibrated via blood tests, but the test centers are way too busy and packed with unhealthy patients at the moment.
 

[resveratrol_guy]

This page has some general advice that are relevant here.  The doctor likes ACE2 support but doesn't like zinc.

 

https://www.fox10pho...otection-advice

 

This page has some info about bradykinin and receptors.

 

https://www.preprint.../202004.0023/v1

 

"There is no way that zinc supplementation will impact the level of free intracellular zinc." -- I guess Dr. Galland has never heard of ionophores. To be fair, until recently, neither had I.

 

Speaking as someone with impaired zinc transport, I can assure you that taking 50 mg/d of zinc gluconate has benefitted me. (Over time, this might be toxic to most individuals, but I've stayed with this dose for years.) It makes my skin shine (strong correlation), and seems to quell glutamate excitotoxicity (good correlation) which used to deprive me of sleep. So how it is getting into cells? I've never taken HCQ and have little dietary intake of EGCG or quercetin. I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with the cornucopia of polyphenols I ingest on a regular basis.
 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 21 April 2020 - 05:53 AM.

[Kalliste]

"There is no way that zinc supplementation will impact the level of free intracellular zinc." -- I guess Dr. Galland has never heard of ionophores. To be fair, until recently, neither had I.

 

Speaking as someone with impaired zinc transport, I can assure you that taking 50 mg/d of zinc gluconate has benefitted me. (Over time, this might be toxic to most individuals, but I've stayed with this dose for years.) It makes my skin shine (strong correlation), and seems to quell glutamate excitotoxicity (good correlation) which used to deprive me of sleep. So how it is getting into cells? I've never taken HCQ and have little dietary intake of EGCG or quercetin. I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with the cornucopia of polyphenols I ingest on a regular basis.
 

 

I guess you have to be a trained doctor to think that zinc supplements don't do anything. Over the years I have noticed very clearly how sexual function changes with or without Zinc/Niacin in system (and I eat a lot of red meat as, even then I notice the change). The N=1 evidence is overwhelming for me. 

[shp5]

I guess you have to be a trained doctor to think that zinc supplements don't do anything. Over the years I have noticed very clearly how sexual function changes with or without Zinc/Niacin in system (and I eat a lot of red meat as, even then I notice the change). The N=1 evidence is overwhelming for me. 

 

lots of zinc did nothing for me in this regard, or for the common cold. and I tried it repeatedly...

cordyceps on the other hand works for both sexual function and to intercept a cold, for my n=1

[shp5]

 

Appears that you have many of the supplements that support the immune system.

 

I did some research myself on this which led to my article, How To Boost Your Immune System To Fight Viruses Like Coronavirus (Covid-19).

 

One medicinal mushroom I review that has much promise is Agarikon, which mycologist Dr. Paul Stamets is holding below.

 

 

Here's what I wrote about Agarikon:

 

Perhaps the best known and most accomplished mycologist on the planet, Dr. Paul Stamets, has conducted research about the antiviral properties of agarikon with the U.S. Biodefense program, and his findings were supported by scientists from the US Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID) and the National Institute of Health (NIH). This mushroom, along with chaga, red reishi, and shiitake, fights and prevents the growth of dangerous viruses and bacteria, such as E. Coli, bird flu, and the H5N1 virus.

 

You can go here and see Dr. Stamets discussing Agarikon in a video presented under the subheading "They're called magic mushrooms for a reason"

 

-Joe

 

 

 

thanks. reishi, judas ear & chaga can be found very occasionally here in central Europe, this will be a fine addition.

Edited by shp5, 21 April 2020 - 08:11 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

"A new study in China has found that the novel coronavirus has mutated into at least 30 different variations... of which the most aggressive strains were found to generate as much as 270 times as much viral load as the weakest strains. The aggressive strains also killed the human cells the fastest."

 

Maybe this finally explains why we see such extreme heterogeny among regional epidemics, even after aligning the curves in time (say, from the date of the 100th infection). The reason would be that, when weak strains explode first, they leave some degree of immunity against stronger strains in their wake.

 

In any event, we'd better hope we can find a manageably small set of antibodies to deal with this continually exploding zoo of strains. Something tells me that "the" COVID19 vaccine will never come to be. Worse, it will be harder for any vaccine to pass the FDA bar of 30% effectiveness, given the delay between strain selection and trial conclusion.

 

So, unfortunately, I don't think we're wasting our time focusing on prophylactics and treatments.

 

https://www.jpost.co...dy-finds-625333

 

[Mr Spock]

Hmm strange. I really don't think you have COVID19, but I do think you need a workup. You might be able to buy a stethescope, then work with a doc on video conference to connect the mic to the earpiece (maybe just with your hand) in order to transmit your lung sounds. Or maybe even press the mic directly to particular spots on your chest while you cover it with a cupped hand during inhalation. Telecommuting has been suddenly thrust upon us, and we have to improvise.

 

I'd hate to send you to the ER, only to be stuck waiting for hours with insufficient PPE in a contaminated environment. If you can borrow a painting mask from someone, it might be good to have it on hand in case you end up having to go.
 

 My GP is due to contact me tomorrow to check my condition- I did get a call from the nurse at surgery to come for a ECG, but in 2 weeks time due to self-isolation rules. I will ask if he's willing to do what you suggested. I do have a mask, whether it's N95 as claimed not sure.

 

But I've coughed up phlegm couple of times since this started-this is quite rare for me- I think I read somewhere this is a symptomatic of lung infection. Good or bad? Or no connection?

[Kalliste]

"A new study in China has found that the novel coronavirus has mutated into at least 30 different variations... of which the most aggressive strains were found to generate as much as 270 times as much viral load as the weakest strains. The aggressive strains also killed the human cells the fastest."

 

Maybe this finally explains why we see such extreme heterogeny among regional epidemics, even after aligning the curves in time (say, from the date of the 100th infection). The reason would be that, when weak strains explode first, they leave some degree of immunity against stronger strains in their wake.

 

In any event, we'd better hope we can find a manageably small set of antibodies to deal with this continually exploding zoo of strains. Something tells me that "the" COVID19 vaccine will never come to be. Worse, it will be harder for any vaccine to pass the FDA bar of 30% effectiveness, given the delay between strain selection and trial conclusion.

 

So, unfortunately, I don't think we're wasting our time focusing on prophylactics and treatments.

 

https://www.jpost.co...dy-finds-625333

 

Yeah, s*** even more bad news:

 

 

It is now undisputed that Covid-19 should be taken seriously as a serious illness. How the late effects will have an impact will only become clear step by step. Recovered patients in diving are also at particular risk. The massive changes in the lungs can significantly increase the risk of accidents, said the senior physician of the Innsbruck University Clinic, Frank Hartig.

"" This is shocking, we do not understand what is happening here. "
Frank Hartig, senior physician at the Innsbruck University Clinic

He heads the emergency department in the hospital and is the responsible crisis coordinator for Covid 19 patients. In the clinic, doctors have treated dozens of coronavirus sufferers in recent weeks, from symptom-free spreaders to intensive care patients on the heart-lung machine. Among them were six active divers, all of whom did not have to be treated in hospital, but cured themselves in home quarantines. All of them were not severe cases, their illnesses were five to six weeks ago and they are considered to have recovered. But they can no longer dive. "The damage to the lungs is irreversible," said Hartig in an interview with the APA. And the,even though they were considered to be clinically healthy after several weeks of the control and showed only individual symptoms such as irritable cough or reduced performance.

"This is shocking, we don't understand what's going on here. They are probably lifelong patients, so it doesn't matter whether they dive again or not," said the doctor. The bad news was made clear by lung CTs. "They didn't get any better at all in imaging," said Hartig. "As an emergency doctor with 20 years of experience, you swallow when you see something like this in a 40-year-old patient."

In the control after several weeks, two patients showed significant oxygen deficiency when under stress as a typical sign of persistent lung shunt. In two, the bronchi were still very excitable when under stress, as in asthmatics. Four out of the six divers still showed impressive lung changes on the control CT. "I even called on the X-ray to see if they had swapped the pictures because a healthy patient was sitting in front of us," said Hartig. "When they saw their own pictures, it was shocking for them," said the doctor. "You have to check regularly with such lung damage."

To what extent long-term effects remain on the lungs is unclear according to the doctor and is currently speculative. "We don't know how much of the changes will last," said the doctor. When looking at the findings, however, it is difficult "to believe in complete healing". He therefore published an interim report in the diving magazine "Wetnote" to warn active divers. "After a Covid infection, even if you have only mild symptoms, you should definitely have a dive doctor examine you thoroughly, even if you still have an upright medical examination," said Hartig.

Under no circumstances should former patients practice their sport in the summer without clarification. There is already a debate among doctors about artificial ventilation. More and more medical professionals are observing that the condition of Covid 19 patients deteriorates rapidly as soon as they are inserted into the trachea and connected to a counseling device. Hospitals in the USA have therefore been trying to delay ventilation for as long as possible. The first warnings came from Italy, where the majority of the ventilated patients died.

"If you give them two liters of oxygen, the oxygen saturation will be a little better, but a few hours later, many of them will be in the intensive care unit."
Frank Hartig, senior physician at the Innsbruck University Clinic

Such observations are also made in the Innsbruck clinic. Patients come to the outpatient clinic with low oxygen saturation, except for increased respiratory rate, they are fine according to the circumstances, although according to the textbook they should be intubated immediately in the case of such poor blood gases, Hartig reported. "If you give them two liters of oxygen, the oxygen saturation will get a little better, but a few hours later, many of them are in the intensive care unit with intubation and severe lung failure," said the doctor. Many doctors feel that oxygen triggers cascades.

"It is worrying what we experience and what we do in the intensive care unit and it is clear how little we know," said Hartig. "We are talking to people and feel like they are over the mountain and they are dying two hours later," said the emergency doctor. In the case of seriously ill people, it is sometimes shown that oxygen can also be counterproductive. Divers have a higher level of oxygen when diving, for example if they practice sport with Nitrox, a mixture of nitrogen with oxygen. This could be dangerous if "the lung tissue is still sensitive," warned Hartig. "For this summer we are dependent on expert opinions," he emphasized that studies will only be available next year.

[Daniel Cooper]

Meh, this is entirely expected.

 

When a novel virus jumps a species barrier you typically see a high mutation rate.  Furthermore, this is an RNA virus.  RNA viruses don't utilize the host cell's error correcting mechanisms as they replicate so they normally have a high rate of mutation.

 

However, it's not all bad news.  In a typical viral pandemic, which normally occurs after a species jump, you end up with a number of variants in circulation.  The normal way these things unfold, it is the least deadly variants that get passed around the most.  The reason is simple - the variants that make people sicker also tend to take them out of circulation for spreading the virus.  The people that get the variant that causes a milder disease tend to mingle with other people thus preferentially spreading the milder version.

 

This notably did not happen (in fact the reverse happened) in the 1918 pandemic due to conditions that existed having to do with WWI. 

 

So, the normal progression for a new virus is that it becomes less severe as time evolves. 

 

So long as there is some cross immunity - and there should be some though imperfectly - the tendency over time will be for the virus in circulation to be less deadly and cause less serious illness.

 

Think of it this way - novel virus have been jumping from other species into man since man has existed.  They haven't wiped us out yet.  The other four corona viruses in circulation that normally cause the common cold - they probably jumped from another species into man at some point and initially caused serious illness.

 

 Now, that doesn't mean that any particular one of us might not be taken out by this virus in the short term.  But the long term prospects are not so dire.

 

 

[joelcairo]

I'm still guardedly optimistic about a vaccine being developed and working against all variants of COVID-19. It's only been mutating for a few months, so there must be many antigens shared by all of them. Influenza has been circulating in humans for hundreds if not thousands of years, so it's not too surprising that there are multiple strains requiring separate vaccines.

 

My main concerns are that the vaccine won't be completely protective and won't last more than a year or so.

[Mind]

I'm still guardedly optimistic about a vaccine being developed and working against all variants of COVID-19. It's only been mutating for a few months, so there must be many antigens shared by all of them. Influenza has been circulating in humans for hundreds if not thousands of years, so it's not too surprising that there are multiple strains requiring separate vaccines.

 

My main concerns are that the vaccine won't be completely protective and won't last more than a year or so.

 

Just a reminder that there is a vaccine thread about COVID, in case you want to contribute your thoughts there. Considering that there is no known working human coronavirus vaccine, despite decades of work, makes me doubtful there will be one forthcoming anytime soon. 

[resveratrol_guy]

 My GP is due to contact me tomorrow to check my condition- I did get a call from the nurse at surgery to come for a ECG, but in 2 weeks time due to self-isolation rules. I will ask if he's willing to do what you suggested. I do have a mask, whether it's N95 as claimed not sure.

 

But I've coughed up phlegm couple of times since this started-this is quite rare for me- I think I read somewhere this is a symptomatic of lung infection. Good or bad? Or no connection?

 

Good luck with the GP. Make sure you have a decent mic on hand. I suggest testing the whole process with a friend first, in case the doc is willing to do a video session on short notice.

 

Many doctors, although perhaps only those working privately, are indeed practicing telemedicine these days. You might be able to get a consultation with a respiratory expert in this modality. Consider contacting those in other countries as well. A credit card can get you a long way when everyone is online. Even if you can't get a prescription, you might at least be able to get an opinion (or two) as to the interpretation of your lung sounds.

 

I'm encouraged by your extensive duration of illness, in the sense that every day that passes makes this less likely to be COVID19. While there are plenty of asymptomatic cases, or those involving low-grade chronic fever, I have yet to hear of someone with shortness of breath who doesn't have a temperature (unless it's being suppressed with panadol, etc.). If you're confident that this isn't agina, then yes, the phlegm suggests that it's some sort of bacterial issue. It most likely deserves a course of antibiotics (which may kill your gut bacteria, but that's fixable).

 

A little blood from throat irritation would be unremarkable. A big glob of it would be concerning.

 

Meanwhile, you might wish to look at various mushrooms for the purposes of fortifying your natural killer cells. Shiitake is my personal favorite, but there are plenty more in the mycology literature. I see that cordyceps was mentioned above, for instance. Carbon 60 olive oil is worth considering as well, but dosing optimization is tricky.

[resveratrol_guy]

Yeah, s*** even more bad news:

 

I don't know why your post was labelled as pointless and timewasting. The fact that we have divers, many of whom being of exceptional lung health, demonstrate persistently poor lung imaging after "recovering", is gravely concerning. It also underscores the importance of preventing the damage in the first place, and in particular, the cytokine storm if infection in fact occurs.

 

Perhaps such patients should be treated like cystic fibrosis folks. Perhaps they would benefit from tPA and DNAse. Or perhaps this combo should be administered upon ARDS onset. "Intrapleural tissue plasminogen activator (tPA) combined with deoxyribonuclease has been shown to increase pleural drainage, decrease hospital length of stay, and decrease need for surgery in parapneumonic effusions and empyema."

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 22 April 2020 - 01:27 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

Meh, this is entirely expected.

 

When a novel virus jumps a species barrier you typically see a high mutation rate.  Furthermore, this is an RNA virus.  RNA viruses don't utilize the host cell's error correcting mechanisms as they replicate so they normally have a high rate of mutation.

 

However, it's not all bad news.  In a typical viral pandemic, which normally occurs after a species jump, you end up with a number of variants in circulation.  The normal way these things unfold, it is the least deadly variants that get passed around the most.  The reason is simple - the variants that make people sicker also tend to take them out of circulation for spreading the virus.  The people that get the variant that causes a milder disease tend to mingle with other people thus preferentially spreading the milder version.

 

This notably did not happen (in fact the reverse happened) in the 1918 pandemic due to conditions that existed having to do with WWI. 

 

So, the normal progression for a new virus is that it becomes less severe as time evolves. 

 

So long as there is some cross immunity - and there should be some though imperfectly - the tendency over time will be for the virus in circulation to be less deadly and cause less serious illness.

 

Think of it this way - novel virus have been jumping from other species into man since man has existed.  They haven't wiped us out yet.  The other four corona viruses in circulation that normally cause the common cold - they probably jumped from another species into man at some point and initially caused serious illness.

 

 Now, that doesn't mean that any particular one of us might not be taken out by this virus in the short term.  But the long term prospects are not so dire.

 

I agree on all counts, including the 1918 anomaly (which was supposedly due to milder patients remaining in trenches, while serious ones spread it around on the trains back to the hospital).

 

But the vaccine problem is still vexing. The SARS vaccine never entered human trials because, if I understand correctly, animals would exhibit cytokine storms in response to immune challenge. (Funding dried up once it was eradicated from circulation.) HIV vaccine has never worked, save for a few fleeting cases of modestly enhanced immunity, due in large part to problems with antibodies targetting GP120. COVID19 is the only other virus, so far as I can see, with some form of GP120. That has negative ramifications for vaccine development, especially if the Spike "forest" is dense enough to block antibody access to other antigens on the "golfball" surface of the virus.

 

The other problem is 270X dynamic range of viral load vs. time. That means different mutants behave in a radically different manner; not all mutations are of a trivial nature. On the plus side, that helps us focus our vaccine targetting (but all of them currently in trials were designed in the absence of such information -- oops) but it also means that surviving disease and forming antibodies might not protect against the violent forms. I guess we already knew that, but the differences in behavior are stark, and may well explain why we see such a diversity of patients.
 

[resveratrol_guy]

 It's only been mutating for a few months, so there must be many antigens shared by all of them.

 

Quite possibly. But see my comments above about "forest" density.

 

@Mind: No worries if you want to move my posts to vaccine thread. I thought they fit better in context here. Your call.

[lancebr]

It seem that the MSM is playing up this latest study from the VA concerning hydroxychloroquine in which they say there

appears to be no benefit from Hydroxychloroquine and possible harm caused by it:

 

https://apnews.com/a...dc23423c0bbe2b2

 

https://www.reuters....n-idUSKCN2233AN

 

Some of the basic points are:

 

"28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone"

 

"Hydroxychloroquine made no difference in the need for a breathing machine"

 

"Researchers did not track side effects, but noted a hint that hydroxychloroquine might have damaged other organs."

 

They are also reporting that Trump may be backing away from touting it anymore.

Edited by lancebr, 22 April 2020 - 03:28 AM.

[yz69]

Another HCQ+Zpack+Zinc success story

 

https://losangeles.c...ine-treatments/

[Dorian Grey]

It seem that the MSM is playing up this latest study from the VA concerning hydroxychloroquine in which they say there

appears to be no benefit from Hydroxychloroquine and possible harm caused by it:

 

https://apnews.com/a...dc23423c0bbe2b2

 

https://www.reuters....n-idUSKCN2233AN

 

Some of the basic points are:

 

"28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone"

 

"Hydroxychloroquine made no difference in the need for a breathing machine"

 

"Researchers did not track side effects, but noted a hint that hydroxychloroquine might have damaged other organs."

 

They are also reporting that Trump may be backing away from touting it anymore.

 

 

I haven't read the study, but most of these are done on hospitalized patients who already have an enormous viral load.  The theoretical benefit of HCQ is that when given in EARLY STAGE disease, it prevents viral replication into massive viral load.  

 

From what I gather, HCQ isn't a particularly good salvage med, but more of a prophylactic.  If given early in the disease process, it helps prevent early stage disease from progressing to end stage disease.  

 

These trials are excluding early stage patients, as most of them might clear the disease without treatment. Problem is, once you allow progression to end stage disease, you've past the point of benefit from HCQ.  

 

Doctors treating early have been reporting much better results. 

[Mr Spock]

Good luck with the GP. Make sure you have a decent mic on hand. I suggest testing the whole process with a friend first, in case the doc is willing to do a video session on short notice.

 

Many doctors, although perhaps only those working privately, are indeed practicing telemedicine these days. You might be able to get a consultation with a respiratory expert in this modality. Consider contacting those in other countries as well. A credit card can get you a long way when everyone is online. Even if you can't get a prescription, you might at least be able to get an opinion (or two) as to the interpretation of your lung sounds.

 

I'm encouraged by your extensive duration of illness, in the sense that every day that passes makes this less likely to be COVID19. While there are plenty of asymptomatic cases, or those involving low-grade chronic fever, I have yet to hear of someone with shortness of breath who doesn't have a temperature (unless it's being suppressed with panadol, etc.). If you're confident that this isn't agina, then yes, the phlegm suggests that it's some sort of bacterial issue. It most likely deserves a course of antibiotics (which may kill your gut bacteria, but that's fixable).

 

A little blood from throat irritation would be unremarkable. A big glob of it would be concerning.

 

Meanwhile, you might wish to look at various mushrooms for the purposes of fortifying your natural killer cells. Shiitake is my personal favorite, but there are plenty more in the mycology literature. I see that cordyceps was mentioned above, for instance. Carbon 60 olive oil is worth considering as well, but dosing optimization is tricky.

Hi and thanks for your reply.

 

I'm still waiting for my gp to get back to me,and I don't know if I've time to get a stethoscope to arrange a telemedicine call b4 I have to go to ER

The duration you mention, to me is from this saturday early,when syptoms of breathlessness started, am to today, about 3 days- I've been a little more breathless  since last night.

 

Some questions: Is aspirin ok to use as a bloodthinner-for mucus? or natokinase- I've got both at home.

I've started on lipsomal vit C , how often should I take it.

I'm taking the following: Quercetin LEF 

25mg zinc- picolinate & sulfate

NAC 600mg X 2 

Fish oil LEF

 

I've read citturline and arginine are good, I've got those also.

Read on Mercola.com hydrogen peroxide 3% with diffuser/inhaler works- I've got the HP as well.

[Mr Spock]

Forgot, should I go back on Ramipril, BP med,been off it for about a month?

[resveratrol_guy]

Hi and thanks for your reply.

 

I'm still waiting for my gp to get back to me,and I don't know if I've time to get a stethoscope to arrange a telemedicine call b4 I have to go to ER

The duration you mention, to me is from this saturday early,when syptoms of breathlessness started, am to today, about 3 days- I've been a little more breathless  since last night.

 

Some questions: Is aspirin ok to use as a bloodthinner-for mucus? or natokinase- I've got both at home.

I've started on lipsomal vit C , how often should I take it.

I'm taking the following: Quercetin LEF 

25mg zinc- picolinate & sulfate

NAC 600mg X 2 

Fish oil LEF

 

I've read citturline and arginine are good, I've got those also.

Read on Mercola.com hydrogen peroxide 3% with diffuser/inhaler works- I've got the HP as well.

 

You're well beyond the typical COVID19 progression at this point, which is shortness of breath at day 5 or 6, and ARDS at day 8. If you're still walking around, then you don't seem to be going in the Italian direction. I guess you could have a milder strain that lingers around, which in theory could explain the lack of a fever, although it sounds more bacterial to me.

 

First of all, let's ensure maximum redundancy on the oxygen front. I'm going to be paranoid here because the health system is overstressed.

 

Make sure whoever you are staying with, or even a neighbor, is trained in CPR, just in case. YouTube videos abound.

 

If you have access to a dive shop over the phone, you might ask them to deliver some higher concentration oxygen canisters, along with whatever regulator/mask you might need in order to consume it. That way you have something to keep your system online in case of unexpected deterioration. Oxygen concentrators or CPAP/BiPAP/VPAP devices would be handy, as well. Worst case, if things were to change suddenly, you would just need to hang on for a while until the paramedics show up with their own supply. Of course, all this needs to be weighed against sanitation issues, and cost. It's a total hack. Don't think I don't realize that. But so much of the medical system has been pushed to the brink.

 

Key point: in COVID19 patients, lying face-down (massage table position) with your legs supported by a fat pillow or two so as to create an incline, will open your lungs and direct oxygen to your brain. Plenty of YouTube videos demonstrate its use in such cases. I suppose it should work for pneumonia due to other causes, as well.

 

I would suggest taking a bare minimum of 50 mg of zinc per day. If you can get away with 100 mg without getting brain fog or other intolerable symptoms, do it until you kick this thing. Dr. Zelenko used 220 mg of zinc sulfate in his case study, but it's unclear to me whether that was zinc equivalent, or merely zinc sulfate. Note that zinc compounds tend to be difficult to dissolve. Personally, I shake them vigorously with an acidic juice, such as orange juice. (This requires emptying the powder from the caplet into the juice container.) Have someone else do the shaking; you should be burning minimum possible energy. You'll know you've succeeded when you can no longer see little blobs of zinc powder floating on the surface.

 

I don't expect zinc to help as much for bacterial infections, but under the circumstances, I think it's a low-risk gamble, considering that you might also have viral activity going on.

 

I don't think liposomal vitamin C matters as much as vitamin C, period. There are definitely others here who are more familiar than I am with this approach, but the recurring theme I've heard is "bowel tolerance", as in "keep taking a gram every half hour until you induce dihorrea". Send someone down to the store to grab a massive bottle of the stuff. Ideally, this would be ascorbic acid, full stop, but it might include sodium ascorbate or other ingredients that create kidney challenges at high doses. So it would certainly help to have lots of distilled water on hand, as well.

 

My own view, being more or less vegan but having done low-carb omnivorous diets for months on end, is that it's better to be on a juice diet when threatened with illness. The reason being, one wants maximum performance (as in, sugar), minimum digestive energy expense, and maximum kidney clearance.

 

There have been comments on elderberry, hesperidin, etc. earlier in the thread, so you may wish to read back a few pages while you're stuck in bed. I know how much it sucks to have a nagging illness when the hospital system is somewhere between chaos and total breakdown.

I will just list for you everything I took on my most recent bout of illness (5 days, with fever):

 

unlimited juice (fruit and veggie, no added salt or sugar or other junk)

unlimited hydrogen water (really helped me keep mentally straight during bouts of fever)

carbon 60 olive oil (4 level teaspoons every other day)

moringa (2 level teaspoons daily)

zinc gluconate (50 mg daily)

cordyceps extract (1 level teaspoon daily)

nicotinamide riboside (NAD+ source, about 250 mg/d)

shiitake-maitake pills (maybe 3 per day)

 

For no particular reason other than lack of data awareness, I did NOT take:

 

vitamin C

elderberry

hesperiden

EGCG

quercetin

 

No pharma drugs were involved, and I let my low fever go uncontrolled, deliberately. I even paused my usual Rapamune dosing, so as to allow my immune system off the chains.

 

You can't control mucus with aspirin. (Aspirin is just for anticlotting purposes.) There are some over-the-counter drugs which will, though. A call to the local pharmacy is in order.

 

Your other supplements sound fine.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 22 April 2020 - 10:46 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

Forgot, should I go back on Ramipril, BP med,been off it for about a month?

 

If is isn't COVID19, then I see no reason not to be on your normal BP meds. If this is COVID19, then all the ACE2 debates come to mind, and others are much better informed to answer.

[resveratrol_guy]

I haven't read the study, but most of these are done on hospitalized patients who already have an enormous viral load.  The theoretical benefit of HCQ is that when given in EARLY STAGE disease, it prevents viral replication into massive viral load.  

 

From what I gather, HCQ isn't a particularly good salvage med, but more of a prophylactic.  If given early in the disease process, it helps prevent early stage disease from progressing to end stage disease.  

 

These trials are excluding early stage patients, as most of them might clear the disease without treatment. Problem is, once you allow progression to end stage disease, you've past the point of benefit from HCQ.  

 

Doctors treating early have been reporting much better results. 

 

Hopefully one of those studies lancebr mentioned will finally address the question of early-stage HCQ use with zinc. In the interim, be prepared for viral headlines claiming that HCQ is useless.

 

...oh wait, we're already there.

[pamojja]

I don't think liposomal vitamin C matters as much as vitamin C, period. There are definitely others here who are more familiar than I am with this approach, but the recurring theme I've heard is "bowel tolerance", as in "keep taking a gram every half hour until you induce dihorrea". Send someone down to the store to grab a massive bottle of the stuff. Ideally, this would be ascorbic acid, full stop, but it might include sodium ascorbate or other ingredients that create kidney challenges at high doses. So it would certainly help to have lots of distilled water on hand, as well.

 

Just a small but important correction. If it really is a viral pneumonia, bowel-tolerance could go up to 150 over 200 g a day, meaning with anything less a dose, one never comes even close to it. With 2g during 16 waking hours each amounts to a meager 32g per day. That could never even make a dent. As example, my usual bowel-tolerance due to rhinitis is already 50 g per day.
 

200g per day / 16 waking hours would need 12.5 per hour. If possible, even more frequent, like every 20 min. ~4g, which amounts to an even teaspoon each. The next thing to consider is 3 times 16 hours = 48 doses. Since ascorbic acid usually is disolved in a glass of water, even if one only took 100ml each dose, that would still amount to 4.8 liters of water!

 

If one is determined enough, one of course can just take the teaspoon of AA on one's tongue, and gulp it down with 1-2 sips of water, to avoid becoming hyperhydrated.

 

If one can't tolerate the acididy of pure ascorbic acid, it can easily be turned pH neutral by adding up to half AA's weight as sodium bicarbonate well mixed in water.

 

If you can afford liposomal, use it additionally. Dr. Levy claims for infections it might be 10 times more effective. However, a study done by him found that plasma and intercellular resulted in equal levels with equal doses of liposomal or sodium ascorbate. Only area under the courve intercellular was 50% greater with liposomal. However, even if for an other reason liposomal would still be alledgedly 10 times more effective in infections (Levy speculates because of no energy need for liposomals to enter cells), to get the equivalent of ~200g AA per day would still take 20g liposomal vitamin C per day.

 

However, reaching bowel-tolerance is the sign for both to reduce the next dose by a fifth, and condinue at that level the next days.

Edited by pamojja, 22 April 2020 - 11:23 AM.

[Mr Spock]

You're well beyond the typical COVID19 progression at this point, which is shortness of breath at day 5 or 6, and ARDS at day 8. If you're still walking around, then you don't seem to be going in the Italian direction. I guess you could have a milder strain that lingers around, which in theory could explain the lack of a fever, although it sounds more bacterial to me.

 

First of all, let's ensure maximum redundancy on the oxygen front. I'm going to be paranoid here because the health system is overstressed.

 

Make sure whoever you are staying with, or even a neighbor, is trained in CPR, just in case. YouTube videos abound.

 

If you have access to a dive shop over the phone, you might ask them to deliver some higher concentration oxygen canisters, along with whatever regulator/mask you might need in order to consume it. That way you have something to keep your system online in case of unexpected deterioration. Oxygen concentrators or CPAP/BiPAP/VPAP devices would be handy, as well. Worst case, if things were to change suddenly, you would just need to hang on for a while until the paramedics show up with their own supply. Of course, all this needs to be weighed against sanitation issues, and cost. It's a total hack. Don't think I don't realize that. But so much of the medical system has been pushed to the brink.

 

Key point: in COVID19 patients, lying face-down (massage table position) with your legs supported by a fat pillow or two so as to create an incline, will open your lungs and direct oxygen to your brain. Plenty of YouTube videos demonstrate its use in such cases. I suppose it should work for pneumonia due to other causes, as well.

 

I would suggest taking a bare minimum of 50 mg of zinc per day. If you can get away with 100 mg without getting brain fog or other intolerable symptoms, do it until you kick this thing. Dr. Zelenko used 220 mg of zinc sulfate in his case study, but it's unclear to me whether that was zinc equivalent, or merely zinc sulfate. Note that zinc compounds tend to be difficult to dissolve. Personally, I shake them vigorously with an acidic juice, such as orange juice. (This requires emptying the powder from the caplet into the juice container.) Have someone else do the shaking; you should be burning minimum possible energy. You'll know you've succeeded when you can no longer see little blobs of zinc powder floating on the surface.

 

I don't expect zinc to help as much for bacterial infections, but under the circumstances, I think it's a low-risk gamble, considering that you might also have viral activity going on.

 

I don't think liposomal vitamin C matters as much as vitamin C, period. There are definitely others here who are more familiar than I am with this approach, but the recurring theme I've heard is "bowel tolerance", as in "keep taking a gram every half hour until you induce dihorrea". Send someone down to the store to grab a massive bottle of the stuff. Ideally, this would be ascorbic acid, full stop, but it might include sodium ascorbate or other ingredients that create kidney challenges at high doses. So it would certainly help to have lots of distilled water on hand, as well.

 

My own view, being more or less vegan but having done low-carb omnivorous diets for months on end, is that it's better to be on a juice diet when threatened with illness. The reason being, one wants maximum performance (as in, sugar), minimum digestive energy expense, and maximum kidney clearance.

 

There have been comments on elderberry, hesperidin, etc. earlier in the thread, so you may wish to read back a few pages while you're stuck in bed. I know how much it sucks to have a nagging illness when the hospital system is somewhere between chaos and total breakdown.

I will just list for you everything I took on my most recent bout of illness (5 days, with fever):

 

unlimited juice (fruit and veggie, no added salt or sugar or other junk)

unlimited hydrogen water (really helped me keep mentally straight during bouts of fever)

carbon 60 olive oil (4 level teaspoons every other day)

moringa (2 level teaspoons daily)

zinc gluconate (50 mg daily)

cordyceps extract (1 level teaspoon daily)

nicotinamide riboside (NAD+ source, about 250 mg/d)

shiitake-maitake pills (maybe 3 per day)

 

For no particular reason other than lack of data awareness, I did NOT take:

 

vitamin C

elderberry

hesperiden

EGCG

quercetin

 

No pharma drugs were involved, and I let my low fever go uncontrolled, deliberately. I even paused my usual Rapamune dosing, so as to allow my immune system off the chains.

 

You can't control mucus with aspirin. (Aspirin is just for anticlotting purposes.) There are some over-the-counter drugs which will, though. A call to the local pharmacy is in order.

 

Your other supplements sound fine.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

"You're well beyond the typical COVID19 progression at this point, which is shortness of breath at day 5 or 6, and ARDS at day 8" So essentially, if it was covid-19 I should be experiencing ARDS by now?

 

I am waiting to see the GP tomorrow; after being offered a ECG tomorrow by the nurse there,they cancelled. Anyway, hopefully the doc can do an examination with a stethoscope-or am I expecting too much!

[Mr Spock]

Just a small but important correction. If it really is a viral pneumonia, bowel-tolerance could go up to 150 over 200 g a day, meaning with anything less a dose, one never comes even close to it. With 2g during 16 waking hours each amounts to a meager 32g per day. That could never even make a dent. As example, my usual bowel-tolerance due to rhinitis is already 50 g per day.
 

200g per day / 16 waking hours would need 12.5 per hour. If possible, even more frequent, like every 20 min. ~4g, which amounts to an even teaspoon each. The next thing to consider is 3 times 16 hours = 48 doses. Since ascorbic acid usually is disolved in a glass of water, even if one only took 100ml each dose, that would still amount to 4.8 liters of water!

 

If one is determined enough, one of course can just take the teaspoon of AA on one's tongue, and gulp it down with 1-2 sips of water, to avoid becoming hyperhydrated.

 

If one can't tolerate the acididy of pure ascorbic acid, it can easily be turned pH neutral by adding up to half AA's weight as sodium bicarbonate well mixed in water.

 

If you can afford liposomal, use it additionally. Dr. Levy claims for infections it might be 10 times more effective. However, a study done by him found that plasma and intercellular resulted in equal levels with equal doses of liposomal or sodium ascorbate. Only area under the courve intercellular was 50% greater with liposomal. However, even if for an other reason liposomal would still be alledgedly 10 times more effective in infections (Levy speculates because of no energy need for liposomals to enter cells), to get the equivalent of ~200g AA per day would still take 20g liposomal vitamin C per day.

 

However, reaching bowel-tolerance is the sign for both to reduce the next dose by a fifth, and condinue at that level the next days.

Doesn't C leach minerals from your body? Should it be taken away from food/ other supps?

 

I will nevertheless take both to bowel tollerance