130 replies to this topic

[Matt]

I've been wondering this for quite a while now, it seems to me a very logical choice to practice calorie restriction, especially if your goal is to 'live forever' or live much longer than the normal human lifespan. As far as I can tell there are very few here that do CR, but I assume that quite a lot eat a reasonably healthy diet. Have anyone here considered doing CR before, and if so, what stopped you? Do you think there is still not enough evidence for human CR? Are you not yet impressed by CR rodent studies, especially the primate studies (which are now showing major differences on the outside (appearance http://www.imminst.o...=237&t=15167&s= ) and inside. From what I can see, quite a few CRers who have been doing it for an extended period of time look quite young for their age, and the studies done by Fontana at WUSTL show that CRONies have remarkably low risk from all major diseases, to the point of having almost 0 chance of developing them, even though the age range is big, up to 80+ years of age.

The single most well studied and effective way to extend maximum lifespan in all species, yet hardly anyone from Imminst has implemented it. Just seems a little odd thats all

Remember there are only ideas and theories on why CR won't work in humans, there is no credible evidence actually showing it doesn't work. The okinawan's although were supposed to be a good model for CR, now there is evidence that their CR was mild, and their calorie intake has kept increasing since the 1960's and haven't been CR'd all their lives. And we know just how rapid metabolic changes can happen when going from low calorie to higher calorie and less nutritious food. So the CR effect in Okinawa is very underestimated in its ability to extend lifespan.

[eternaltraveler]

I agree with you Matt. CR is the best thing one could do right now. Even if it doesn't turn out to have any effect on maximum lifespan (which I doubt), it still reduces drastically the chances of many causes of death, and is certainly infinitely superior to the supplement insanity many members here have been seen to exhibit.

The thing is, it's an awful pain in the ass )

[mike250]

CR doesn't fit my body type.

[ajnast4r]

well

#1) i think very few people in the health section are actually 'immortalists'. most are just looking for advice/discussion on living a balanced and healthy lifestyle

#2) CR in general makes you extremely skinny and waify looking... very different of the standard male archetype that most of us aspire to.

#3) theres not enough evidence to prove that the gains in lifespan would be significantly more than that of a balanced, healthy diet.

[Brainbox]

I'm doing CR, but not in a very consistent way I must admit. More something like "periodic CR" combined with a general healthy lifestyle. Maybe I have something like a "natulal CR bodytype" since I do not have a high apetite. I try to put on some more muscle (I'm quite skinny, BMI is borderline low) which is quite difficult.

I also think that the probability for CR having beneficial health effects is very high but on the other hand... if we want to practice CR, why should we consequently expose ourselfs to a laboratory environment lifestyle? I'm not a rat and I like some of the fun life provides... or am I missing something obvious?

[s123]

I practise the ‘real’ CR for a few weeks now. Which the real CR I mean that I use a computer program to calculate everything that I eat and that I weigh most foods that I eat. For some things like lettuce I guess the weight but other things like oats, pomegranate juice, brown rice,… I always weigh before eat it. On this moment I eat around 1700 Kcal a day. In the past I have sometimes eat only 1596 Kcal a day, but that was too little. I lost too much weight.

[efosse]

2 reasons I'm not doing strict CR:
1. I'd look really, relaly skinny and not be able to get a decent girlfriend, thus increasing my stress levels thereby negatively affecting my longevity
2. it still seems unclear to me whether it's the actual CR or the percent lean body mass that is the primary reason for longevity. check out this article from 2003 in Science:

Extended Longevity in Mice Lacking the Insulin Receptor in Adipose Tissue

Matthias Blüher,1 Barbara B. Kahn,2 C. Ronald Kahn1*

Caloric restriction has been shown to increase longevity in organisms ranging from yeast to mammals. In some organisms, this has been associated with a decreased fat mass and alterations in insulin/insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) pathways. To further explore these associations with enhanced longevity, we studied mice with a fat-specific insulin receptor knockout (FIRKO). These animals have reduced fat mass and are protected against age-related obesity and its subsequent metabolic abnormalities, although their food intake is normal. Both male and female FIRKO mice were found to have an increase in mean life-span of ~134 days (18%), with parallel increases in median and maximum life-spans. Thus, a reduction of fat mass without caloric restriction can be associated with increased longevity in mice, possibly through effects on insulin signaling.

1 Joslin Diabetes Center and Department of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, One Joslin Place, Boston, MA, 02215 USA.
2 Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, 02215 USA.
* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: c.ronald.kahn@joslin.harvard.edu

[Lazarus Long]

I would like to but two factors impede my participation.

The first is that starting older means the direct benefits are reduced (not a good reason in itself) though not eliminated.

The second, aside from a varying energy requirement due to high output labors at times, I am a part of a family and as a family they would have to agree to the same dietary restrictions or I would be forced to eat apart.

Frankly they are aware of CR's benefits and are not going to cooperate and I am not sure, especially in the beginning if I could sit at a robust table of vittles and reduce my intake tot he required minimum.

BTW my wife and children get incredibly irritable when hungry and I have noticed these mood swings all my children's lives and for my wife as long as I have known her.

[suspire]

I also think that the probability for CR having beneficial health effects is very high but on the other hand... if we want to practice CR, why should we consequently expose ourselfs to a laboratory environment lifestyle? I'm not a rat and I like some of the fun life provides...  or am I missing something obvious?

This is precisely my attitude towards most everything. While I want to live a longer, healthier life, I am not interested in becoming a monk or a rat. That is to say: I want to enjoy life. That means a nice, fatty, juicy steak with some heart-stopping potatos smothered in butter on the rare occassion. Or a giant ice-cream sundae, topped in oodles of fudge. Or a buzz-worthy level of drinks on a fun night. Etc. Much as I don't life my life in the eternal pursuit of money, I have no interest in living my life in the eternal pursuit of a...longer life. I'd like to be moderately successful financially, and I'd like to life well/longer, as long as I can *enjoy* both from time to time. I'd rather die sooner than have my entire life become one big gray wasteland of restraint.

[Lazarus Long]

I should add that my wife is a cancer survivor and would benefit even more than I by CR but I cannot get her to adjust to a lower caloric intake but I have been more successful at changing the type of nutrition we count as staple.

BTW. I should add that my father was a physician who practiced CR and lived to 90. His older brother however was a cigar smoking lawyer and successful entrepreneur that lived a *good life*, not excessive but well provided for let us say. He was never overweight and he only appeared to decline to his death at 96 after my aunt died.

I am still not convinced that our individual genes have more to do with it anyway. For more of the record my dad convinced his brother to finally quit smoking cigars in his late 80's but he did cut back after his heart attack in his mid 70's.

[s123]

The second, aside from a varying energy requirement due to high output labors at times, I am a part of a family and as a family they would have to agree to the same dietary restrictions or I would be forced to eat apart.

I eat which my parents but what's on my plate is very different from what is on there's. I have already tried many times to convince my family from changing there diet but unsuccessfully.

[Live Forever]

It just seems really difficult to stay on it long term.

[Brainbox]

I am still not convinced that our individual genes have more to do with it anyway.

Agreed. The laboratory experiments on laboratory rats in laboratory environments are very clinically controlled as far as I understand. Even the rats are a special breed that could eliminate normal occurring genetic diversity thereby biasing results?

[caston]

I think we are all doing CR to some degree. For instance I decided to tuck into a pear after dinner instead of a bowl of ice cream.

I think that most of us here while admitting to enjoy the odd donut, hot fudge sunday or glass of cola don't make a habbit out of filling oursevles with rubbish at every meal. Instead we try to eat more fresh fruit and vegetables that are rich in micronutrients and cut down on high sugar, high salt, trans fatty foods and the like.

In comparsion to a lot of people these days most of us have very healthy diets.
No doubt we are healthier and feel better and we get the added pleasures of enjoying healthy foods that most people do not get to experience.

I can't really cut my food intake by a lot more as I need that energy to work throughout the day and keep myself alert. When I do feel hungry I try to snack on fresh fruit and vegetables if available. Often this involves planning ahead and taking fresh produce with me to work or simply ducking out to the supermarket instead of the hamburger or kebab shop. Greengrocers are great places to shop as well they specialise on fresh produce and not every other processed food available in the supermarket.

I don't cook at all if I can avoid it. Cooking and cleaning up (as well the all the expenses of running a kitchen) take valuable time away from my research into life extension!

[s123]

I think that most of us here while admitting to enjoy the odd donut, hot fudge sunday or glass of cola don't make a habbit out of filling oursevles with rubbish at every meal. Instead we try to eat more fresh fruit and vegetables that are rich in micronutrients and cut down on high sugar, high salt, trans fatty foods and the like.

The previous year I had two days where I have gone too far. New year and Christmas. On Christmas I have eat one bal of ice cream and some cream that contains fructose. On New year I have eat a lot of celeriac puree. But for the rest I'm very fanatic in holding to my CR.

It's not that hard for me because I have never liked fast food. I haven't eat a single hamburger in my hole life. But I like things like ice cream and french fries. But since I become interessed in live extension I haven't eat any french fries.

[Shepard]

I tell myself that it's because I don't want my sports performance to decline. Could be I'm just not ready to consistently limit my food intake that much. I remember watching the CRII DVD and when Doug Younkin was giving his talk, I just wanted to go back in time and hand that man a cheeseburger. I know that was probably due to the level of his caloric restriction, but it just struck me as insanity when I saw his speech.

[suspire]

I'm not a fast food, eater, either. Well, most of the time. I admit to the rare KFC indulgence or the Wendy's craving. But most of the time I eat healthy, with the occassional bowl of ice cream here and there.

I am just not convinced CR really applies to humans. I look at my grandparents. My grandfather lived to 97 and he had a voracious appetite, which included alcohol and sweets. He was nowhere near a CR diet, though he was never fat or overweight. My grandmother is at 88 and going strong, very strong actually, even with a genetic heart disorder and she too does not subscribe to a CR diet--she loves sweets too much for that. My other grandmother is still alive, but doing not quite as well due to diabetes and other environmental factors. And my other grandfather died at 80 and he actually, naturally ate a strict CR diet.

If anything, when I look at my grandparents, it is activity levels that meant the most: The grandfather who lived to 97 took a walk every day, twice a day, morning and evening. My 88 year old grandmother is also highly active.

But in the end, I think it is genetics. I am willing to bet, short of medical intervention, due to my genes, I'll live longer than someone else who is on a strict CR diet, but comes from a family that isn't as long lived. It might not be fair, but from all I've seen and heard, I am convinced living longer without medical intervention is strongly influenced by the genetic lottery(and at least a somewhat sensible, though not fanatical diet).

So I'll keep with my occassional steak and ice cream sundae. Life isn't worth living if you can't enjoy a vice every now and then.

[Brainbox]

But in the end, I think it is genetics

Ok, but not limited to. Like with so many other issues, it is my opinion that we make the mistake to think we should choose between options although in reality it's a combination of "options", general parameters that influence life, but the actual optimal values of the parameters differ for each individual. So I think it is both genetics and eating habits that matter. And a few other issues.

[s123]

But in the end, I think it is genetics

Food can alter the expression of some genes.

[Athanasios]

I see lots of excuses [tung]

From what I have seen, most of the benefits will still be gained if done later in life. This makes sense to me since a lot of the declines in health and pathologies occur at those later periods. MR had a stickied thread on a CR forum about studies on late life onset of CR in mice and the talks you (matt) posted showing the age where CR beats out fitness seem to fit along these lines.

I plan on starting CR later in life to get the most years with the least work and taboo (that is if it is still the best option at that time).

From the thread that you linked to :

He was 41 when he died (123 human years). He wasn't CR'd until the latter part of his life either... equiv to around 50-60 year old human.

I made a side thread on late onset CR here: http://www.imminst.o...T&f=237&t=17438

Edited by cnorwood, 25 August 2007 - 09:41 PM.

[efosse]

Hmmm.... but is it CR or the lean body mass that matters? See the article I referenced above. My goal is to have the lowest possible body fat while managing my caloric intake so I build muscle. I'm betting that this is just as or nearly as effective as CR over the long run. Why wouldn't it be?

[Athanasios]

Hmmm.... but is it CR or the lean body mass that matters?

Check out these talks here:
http://www.imminst.o...=237&t=15552&s=

They did experiements that showed it wasnt the fat that is important. It is about having less calories than you need. The second talk addressed exercise vs. CR.

This thread was developed for the question you have (respond there):
http://www.imminst.o...=237&t=16238&s=

[Matt]

efosse, i'm not sure if you're aware of studies that were done on rodents which looked at this issue of body fat and whether it has a role in CR. Maybe Michael (MR) will pop in this thread at some point and explain this better... but there is a something called a ob/ob mouse, which basically is predisposed to becoming huge, and below is a picture to show this.



Now when this mouse is CR'd, it still is quite fat... but manages to get a huge extension in life and actually OUTLIVES skinny non-cr'd mice with low body fat levels. However, when you look at normal mice and put then under CR, the males actually live longer if they have higher body fat according to Edward Masoro.

more later, thanks for all the ones that replied to this thread so far.

[DJS]

In regards to the thread question, two words: life style.

I'd rather live to 78 and enjoy myself, than live to 82 with all of the negative trade offs that come with CR.

An additional part of my estimation puts the chances that a small potential difference in maximum life span will actually affect whether I reach 'escape velocity' as rather small. Of course, I could be wrong. The major break through could come two years after I die in 2059, but there is no way I would let this remote hypothetical affect my enjoyment of a pint of Ben&Jerrys ice cream from time to time (btw, over all my diet is fairly healthy, no fast food etc).

Personally, I tend to view the CR crowd as being a little...high strung about things. But to each hir own.

[DJS]

btw, over all my diet is fairly healthy, no fast food etc

Also, I think that by just living a healthy life style (no smoking, no excessive drinking, lean meat, reduced sugar intake) you can dramatically reduce the risk factors that lead to painful and sometimes deadly diseases later in life.

To me, CR just looks terribly regimented/restrictive as a life style. Even if practicing it *guaranteed me* an additional 5 years of life I wouldn't do it.

[eldar]

Well, I'm going to take the other potentially beneficial route. That being alternate day fasting. As studies seem to indicate that it shares most of the benefits of CR, without the negative side of becoming extremely skinny and frail, I opt for that.

Ofcourse there is still lot less studies done on alternate day fasting (or intermittent fasting whatever you want to call it) than CR, so it might or might not be as effective. But it is looking good and as it is fairly easy to do and doesn't restrict ones life badly, I see no problem in practising it.

[eternaltraveler]

probably the most important reason I don't do CR is then I wouldn't get heart disease, and then what kind of terrible motivation would that be for my work on lysosens (which is presently focused on heart disease) )

[luminous]

I assume that optimal nutrition and careful planning are of vital importance with bare-minimum caloric intake. But for the life of me, while I can find all kinds of info (on the web) about the concept of CR, I don't see much at all on practical meal planning.

Would any of you who practice CR mind sharing your typical daily meals, total calories, percentages of fat, carbs and proteins, etc.?

[s123]

Today I will eat:

Lunch:

Oats 90g
Soy milk 100g
Iceberg lettuce 760g
Broccoli 200g
Green tea 100g

Diner:

Quinoa 100g
Tomatoes 250g + Yellow pepper 180g + garlic 10g + olive oil 10g --> made to a sauce
Safflower oil 5g
Green tea 100g
Lindt 99% 5g
Broccoli 100g
Salmon 200g
pomegranate juice 50g

A while after diner

Cashew nuts 5g
psyllium 10g

This gives me:

1681 Kcal
98.8g proteins
213.9g cabs
58.2g fats
- 10.0g saturated
- 22.5g monounsatureted
- 21.1g polyunsatureted
- 5.4g omega-3
- 12.0g omega-6
- 126mg cholesterol
- 146.3mg phytosterol
48.5g fibers
34.0g sugars
Vitamin A 8892.7 IU
Lycopene 6432,5 µg 
Lutein+Zeaxanthin 6627,3 µg
Folate 702,2 µg
B1 (Thiamine) 2,4mg 
B2 (Riboflavin) 1,5 mg
B3 (Niacin) 26.6 mg 
B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 9,1 mg 
B6 (Pyridoxine) 3,3 mg
B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 6,8 µg 
Vitamin C 664.8 mg 
Vitamin D 16,0 IU
Vitamin E 10,6 mg 
Vitamin K 521,4 µg
Calcium 528.4 mg 
Copper 2,7 mg 
Iron 22.4 mg 
Magnesium 738.1 mg 
Manganese 9.9 mg
Phosphorus 1982.1 mg 
Potassium 5357.4 mg
Selenium 99.8 µg
Sodium 349.4 mg 
Zinc 12,1 mg

Edited by s123, 26 August 2007 - 04:34 PM.

[maestro949]

Why aren't most people here doing CR?

Pizza, Beer and Ice Cream

Mmm. That hot gooey cheese and spicy tomato sauce atop a thick soft crust basted in garlic. Top that off with some greasy pepperoni, red peppers, onions, mushrooms and olives. Sprinkle on a few tasty basil leaves and fire it in the brick oven for a bit. Wash down 4 or 5 pieces with a good microbrew or three and then chase that calorie hell with a peanut butter cup laden waffle bowl of chocolate ice cream with hot fudge.