130 replies to this topic

[Lazarus Long]

Technosophy made a few good points here, in particular about the importance of nutritional input changing first and regardless of whether we take on CR. Many of the benefits of CR can be had by a healthy diet.

I also agree that it is important to limit weight gain and among other things that is a benefit of CR in latter life.

However I think that many of you that see life from an exclusively individual perspective don't understand the difficulties when a parent in this situation.

First off given the distribution of labor in our family I am rarely involved in food prep and more important given the tasks I am involved with food prep is difficult. So you are asking someone (usually my wife) to prepare two meals at least and more if one parent sets an example of everyone getting their own different plate.

As a parent if one of my children decided their were vegan or wanted to do CR i would respect it but I would also expect them to undertake the labor of committing to that effort. I would expect no less from myself. I just have no time for it, it is a lot of work to do right in order to eat very little.

I work hard every day. I am involved in manual labor as well as intellectual and I work from almost the moment I wake up. We have to travel over 5 miles to buy food and we must store up to three weeks of staples and a week of perishables for a family of 4 continuously. Food shopping is a serious intermittent labor but we also have fresh produce that we grow ourselves. Food preparation involves planning and prep to do well and the right tools as well but there is no substitute for time.

I am not against CR but my dad was able to adopt the practice late in life because he was an elderly bachelor that completely controlled his life, not merely his diet and he did isolate himself from others and I think you underestimate the social aspects and pressures with meals. Try visiting others or having guests and offering them a CR based meal.

t can be done but it also goes contrary to the cultural definition of being a good host. That is something I can agree requires closer scrutiny but ignoring that fact is naive.

[caston]

Pizza, Beer and Ice Cream

Mmm.  That hot gooey cheese and spicy tomato sauce atop a thick soft crust basted in garlic.  Top that off with some greasy pepperoni, red peppers, onions, mushrooms and olives.  Sprinkle on a few tasty basil leaves and fire it in the brick oven for a bit.  Wash down 4 or 5 pieces with a good microbrew or three and then chase that calorie hell with a peanut butter cup laden waffle bowl of chocolate ice cream with hot fudge.

Well at least you didn't start it off with a refeer or two and finish it off with a $5 cigar and half a bottle of tequila

[s123]

Pizza, Beer and Ice Cream
Mmm.  That hot gooey cheese and spicy tomato sauce atop a thick soft crust basted in garlic.  Top that off with some greasy pepperoni, red peppers, onions, mushrooms and olives.  Sprinkle on a few tasty basil leaves and fire it in the brick oven for a bit.  Wash down 4 or 5 pieces with a good microbrew or three and then chase that calorie hell with a peanut butter cup laden waffle bowl of chocolate ice cream with hot fudge.

Knowing what this does to your body I wouldn't be able to eat it.

[william7]

May be fewer people are doing CR because of addictions to bad foods. Dr. Neal Barnard, President of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) gives an excellent talk on how the addiction process works at http://www.pcrm.org/...ecast081607.wmv. It doesn't make sense to let meat and junk food dealers control and ruin your life. Don't give them a penny.

[Lazarus Long]

US life expectancy has actually begun to decline in recent years and a lot of the blame is reasonably being laid at our diet and our excess (obesity).

While I have no *compunction* against eating meat on either moral or health grounds I do think that we eat too much of it and also the manner of its production for our economy compromises its quality.

I do not eat fast food at all BTW and at the moment we are providing about 10% of our vegetables from our own garden but that is not a sustainable level and is really more symbolic than substantive.

I do reduce my sugar input and I also only eat one significant meal a day but I do graze as demanded by varying levels of exertion, I like a good beer after work on a hot day and wine alternatively with dinner. I will sometimes eat lunch (most often not) or a classic *continental breakfast* of bread (whole grain of course) with coffee, juice and a bit of cheese.

BTW my kids have been brought up on lower sugar levels and eat fruit instead of candy, juice instead of soda, and even will do their own baking for cookies, brownies etc. They love the same trash as other kids but moderate at home and even moderate when in other homes I notice. Neither is overweight, (my son is a near perfect BMI) and both are active star athletes as well as honor roll academics. Yeah, I guess I am bragging but WTH it's a parents' prerogative a bit.

[luminous]

s123--Thanks for the detailed info!

[wydell]

1. I recall CR made the monkeys cranky in CR studies. My assumption is that it may have the same effect in humans.

2. More difficult to be social (not impossible though)


3. More difficult to maintain muscle mass. People might look gaunt and unhealthy.

4. Similar benefits may be available from STACs Sirtuin Activating Components (e.g., resveratrol without as much restrictive)

5. I like to eat (Though my diet is pretty restrictive. It may already be naturally Caloric Restrict, but I eat normal foods sometimes).


6. I recall that the monkies in the studies may have had lower sperm counts or other reproductive issues. That does not sound like a good thing

[maestro949]

Well at least you didn't start it off with a refeer or two and finish it off with a $5 cigar and half a bottle of tequila

I learned in college that those things weren't all that good for me. )

Seriously though, I can't stop eating pizza, ice cream and beer. The pizza's my fault. I crave the cheese the most and have read studies indicating that this is the most difficult thing for people to give up. The ice cream I blame on my wife. She would leave me if I told her we couldn't go for ice cream. She may have to choose some day. All my friends drink beer. I'm working on converting them to red wine drinkers but it's slow going. It's brutal watching them shove down their 80oz of ale, french fries, onion rings and burgers while I noodle away on my salmon, salad and red wine. They may have to go too.

[Shepard]

Pizza, ice cream, beer....that's like the perfect post-workout meal.

[wydell]

My reasons for not doing CR:


-If I look too thin, I look guant and unhealthy.


-Difficulites in maintaining \ increase muscle mass


-I recall that the CR monkies in CR studies were irritable and cranky. If one believes that CR health effects transfer to humans, one might also believe that the crankiness transfers


-I recall that the CR monkies in CR studies may have had difficulty in reproducing. That does not sound like a good thing


- STACs (sirtuin activating compounds, e.g., resveratrol) may also have CR effect, so why go through the difficulty of CR if this turns out to be true. If STACs works in animals like CR does, why would one believe that the CR benefit transfers, and the STAC benefit does not.



- CR may make it more difficult to be social in terms of eating.

[luminous]

I've said this before, but I don't think I expressed it well enough.

With the wide variety of customary dietary intake of everyone throughout the history of human existence--from subsistence living/near starvation through eating habits that lead to morbid obesity...surely every variation of food intake and caloric level has aready been "tried." Don't you think that if an ideal calorie-restricted diet exists that could significantly extend human lifespan, CR would have been already been discovered well before the modiern studies on mice--and widely known by now?

Surely with the billions of people who have walked the face of the earth throughout history, a few of them--perhaps even a miniscule percentage of the population--happened to practice the type of restricted calorie diet that the CR proponents are currently following. If so, I should think that if CR really worked for humans the way it works on fruit flies (or whatever), then we would have seen a fair number of people living beyond 140 years of age by now. Friends and relatives would have surely taken notice of these long-lived individuals and tried to figure out what they did differently than everyone else. It wouldn't be too difficult (for instance) for relatives to make note of whatever eccentric Aunt Petunia, who lived to be 138, did differently--especially if she never weighed more than 90 pounds and refused to ever eat anything but raw food throughout her life, and not much of it at all.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find out that CR really can extend human lifespan, but I just think that if it really did, we'd ALL know about it already.

[Shepard]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find out that CR really can extend human lifespan, but I just think that if it really did, we'd ALL know about it already.

If anything, I'd say the opposite. CR/fasting has been pushed in plenty of old writings. By relying on clinical data instead of anecdotes we're ignoring what many people have said for a long time.

I should note that I can't recall any directly dealing with maximal lifespan, but extended healthy years.

[s123]

My reasons for not doing CR:


-If I look too thin, I look guant and unhealthy. 


-Difficulites in maintaining \ increase muscle mass


-I recall that the CR monkies in CR studies were irritable and cranky.  If one believes that CR health effects transfer to humans, one might also believe that the crankiness transfers


-I recall that the CR monkies in CR studies may have had difficulty in reproducing. That does not sound like a good thing


- STACs (sirtuin activating compounds, e.g., resveratrol) may also have CR effect, so why go through the difficulty of CR if this turns out to be true. If STACs works in animals like CR does, why would one believe that the CR benefit transfers, and the STAC benefit does not.



- CR may make it more difficult to be social in terms of eating.

Is it a problem if you look thin and unhealthy? I think that the life extending effect is more important than how you look.
Why do you need a increased muscle mass if you aren't a professional sport man?
Resveratrol isn't able to replace CR.
I also take resveratrol, but I consider resveratrol as an addition to CR, not a replacement.
Because you have problems to go eating which your friends/family means that you want to give up the benefits of CR?

I don't hear very good reasons why not to do CR.

[DJS]

Immortalism should be about living and embracing life, not avoiding death. I refuse to live my life stooped in fear.

s123: Is it a problem if you look thin and unhealthy?

Yes, it is a problem. In numerous cog-psy studies it has been demonstrated that possessing robust fitness indicators confer inter-personal advantages in both social and professional contexts. Superficial? Perhaps, but it is the world we live in.

s123: I don't hear very good reasons why not to do CR.

Whether or not one practices CR is a personal life style choice. Your prioritization of personal goals may be very different from other individuals. Are you trying to convince others through logical argumentation that CR is *THE rational choice* or are you simply trying to make sense of things for yourself? Remember that personal desire ultimately has little to do with logic*. Sometimes it must be acknowledged that there isn't an "absolutely correct answer".


* Why choose life over death? Why choose truth over falsehood? -- do we not, in the end, simply do what it is in our nature to do?

[efosse]

this is my plan:

1. high-protein, low-glycemic diet with periodic CR alternating with slightly higher caloric intake, thereby promoting muscle mass increase as well as mild ketosis
2. intake of CR mimetics (e.g., resveratrol) and mean life-extending supplements (e.g., fish oil)

now this is a bet -- but i'm willing to bet the above is just as effective as CR. plus psychologically more rewarding...

[eternaltraveler]

Immortalism should be about living and embracing life, not avoiding death. I refuse to live my life stooped in fear.

Very well said. One thing that disturbs me more than anything are so called immortalists who only profess such out of simple fear of death, not out of the love of life.

Don't take this as a statement against CR. It most certainly is not. There are many enjoyments to be had in life besides food, and if you put a lot of work into CR you don't even have to give up that (I've had some absolutely fantastic CR food, that actually filled me up very well, just takes lots of work), it's simply a statement that life should be about a hell of a lot more than avoiding death.

[s123]

Whether or not one practices CR is a personal life style choice. Your prioritization of personal goals may be very different from other individuals. Are you trying to convince others through logical argumentation that CR is *THE rational choice* or are you simply trying to make sense of things for yourself? Remember that personal desire ultimately has little to do with logic*. Sometimes it must be acknowledged that there isn't an "absolutely correct answer".

It was something I noticed. From my point of view these reasons for not doing CR aren't that strong. For example the reason that you don't look good. Why should you look like a bodybuilder? I don't like the idea that you should have muscles to be beauty. Yes, this is the image that is presented by films, fashion,… But should you follow these? And for social contacts, a real friend wouldn’t look at how you’re looking. Do you choice are friends on how there look or on there personality?
There are other ways to enjoy life than only the plessure of eating.

Why choose life over death?

Because you enjoy to live.

[Karomesis]

Matt, as a devout hedonist I adore life and the pleasures it brings.

I maintain an IF regimen of alternate days feast and famine. Which has given me the following stats...... BP 105-110/57-63, RHR - 48 bpm, and an often ignored stat amongst those here at imminst...1400mg/dl axial rigidity. [:o] [lol] all while having a BMI of aprox 30 and being almost 29 years old.

that is not to say I discount CR, I appreciate the benefits it brings, but my constitution on it resembles a holocaust victim. [sick]

I have to compete on multiple levels with VERY proficient businessmen/women and if I'm off my game for even a second, I get chewed up and spit the hell out. I have to be on top at ALL times, when I finally make it maybe I can experiment with CR for long periods of time, until then I have to keep my game face If you know what I mean.

[bgwowk]

karomesis, I asked Matt this once before, and now I'll ask you: Is that low heart rate solely the result of your intermittent fasting, or do you do aerobic exercise too?

[mike250]

Whether or not one practices CR is a personal life style choice. Your prioritization of personal goals may be very different from other individuals. Are you trying to convince others through logical argumentation that CR is *THE rational choice* or are you simply trying to make sense of things for yourself? Remember that personal desire ultimately has little to do with logic*. Sometimes it must be acknowledged that there isn't an "absolutely correct answer".

It was something I noticed. From my point of view these reasons for not doing CR aren't that strong. For example the reason that you don't look good. Why should you look like a bodybuilder? I don't like the idea that you should have muscles to be beauty. Yes, this is the image that is presented by films, fashion,… But should you follow these? And for social contacts, a real friend wouldn’t look at how you’re looking. Do you choice are friends on how there look or on there personality?
There are other ways to enjoy life than only the plessure of eating.



Because you enjoy to live.

whats wrong with being a BB? the fact of the matter is the majority of the population will not become pros or compete in major shows. you don't like muscles for beauty but others may do. looks matter as much as personality I say.

[wydell]

My reasons for not doing CR:


-If I look too thin, I look guant and unhealthy. 


-Difficulites in maintaining \ increase muscle mass


-I recall that the CR monkies in CR studies were irritable and cranky.  If one believes that CR health effects transfer to humans, one might also believe that the crankiness transfers


-I recall that the CR monkies in CR studies may have had difficulty in reproducing. That does not sound like a good thing


- STACs (sirtuin activating compounds, e.g., resveratrol) may also have CR effect, so why go through the difficulty of CR if this turns out to be true. If STACs works in animals like CR does, why would one believe that the CR benefit transfers, and the STAC benefit does not.



- CR may make it more difficult to be social in terms of eating.

Is it a problem if you look thin and unhealthy? I think that the life extending effect is more important than how you look.
Why do you need a increased muscle mass if you aren't a professional sport man?
Resveratrol isn't able to replace CR.
I also take resveratrol, but I consider resveratrol as an addition to CR, not a replacement.
Because you have problems to go eating which your friends/family means that you want to give up the benefits of CR?

I don't hear very good reasons why not to do CR.

Well, maybe I can elaborate on my position. Let me start off by saying that if you do CR, you are happy, and you don't you think you otherwise could have a more satisfying life by changing dietary practices, then by all means stick with CR. If you love what you eat and feel satisfied, and have good relationships with people, then CR is probably good for you. But CR sounds like a bad idea for me and I think most people.

First and foremost, if CR dietary practices make people cranky or unsatisfied, like the effect purported by by one interpretation of one CR monkey study, then that's a good reason not to do it. I think it is fair that if you extend the life extension effects to humans, that one could extend other CR effects to humans.

Second, if CR makes you look worse, then that probably is in fact a good reason not to do it for most people. Let's face it, in the one paragraph intro to this thread, Matt cited looks (i.e., "looking young" )presumably as a reason for doing CR. So, it is probably okay to cite looks as a reason for not doing CR since the intro, by inference, provides "looks" as a reason for doing CR.

CR may cause some people to look emaciated or gaunt, and emaciated and gaunt people do not look attractive to most. I acknowledge that the fashion world sometimes likes the gaunt look on women, so it's not always deemed to be unattractive, especially for waif model types. And I also acknowledge that CR may have a "looks" benefit for people who a natural tendency to carry weight.

Third, I don't think CR is required for a long, happy, and healthy life. Other dietary practices may show some life extension benefits presumably without the dissatisfaction. And we don't really know if a more bio-absorbable form of resveratrol is a good substitute for CR at this point. ( I play around with certain home resveratrol recipes that people here have suggested)


Like many other people on this site, I practice a restrictive diet. I eat broccoli, brussel sprouts, and wakame cooked in nonfat chicken broth for breakfast, to which I later add walnut and brazil nuts, so I have a freaky diet compared to most people. Is my diet low calorie -- probably not. I drink a lot of whey, coffee, cocoa, and eat a lot of nuts, eggs whites, a lot of avocodoes, mixed greens, and lots o olive oil. I add a bit of cheese to my salads. And once a week I get dessert at wholefoods (maybe it's carrot cake, cheese cake, or a fruit tart). I have steaks at barbecues and sometimes when I go out for fine dining, which is not too often. My diet is kind of high in fat, but mostly good fats and very low in sugar. I don't eat grains, bread, cake (except for dessert every now and then as mentioned above) or pasta. My diet is extremely high in phytochemicals that are known to be beneficial.

I run twice a week at a decent pace for 25 minutes and lift 3 times a week for 90 minutes. I am 38 , 6'2'', 180lbs and have probably less than 7% bodyfat. I play sports sometimes on the weekends. If I dropped calories, I would not look good. I am pretty satisfied with my food and I have fun eating with my girl friend, family, and friends. So, it's a good balance for me. The average person could not tolerate my diet though, so trying to sell it to them would be like someone trying to sell CR to me.

Edited by wydell, 27 August 2007 - 03:47 AM.

[bodyhacker_com]

have been on CR for about 10 months, eating 1650 calories a day and can relate to many of the sentiments on both sides of the fence, but hopefully some of my experiences on the different concerns/topics can help


a) you'll be hungry
one of the biggest ironies about CRON diet, is that that you enjoy food even more on the diet than before, much more. everything simply tastes so much better. things that were bland before, now explode with flavor. i never ate vegetables at all, but now they're delicious,even freaking celery tastes good. it's utterly amazing. you become adept at trimming unnecessary calories. if you do things right, new versions taste nearly as good, but since your palate has changed, you'll actually enjoy the lower calorie substitute more than the calorie dense version you ate before.

examples: we make fajitas for 400 that used to be 1200+ (nixing cheese, using flank grass fed beef, using corn tortillas instead of flour, using pico de gailo salsa instead of tostitos salsa, using pam spray instead of oil). banana splits for 150-200 that are like 600-700 at your favorite restaurant (using a type of breyers, and zero calorie walden farms chocolate sauce). Vitamuffin Brownies for 100 instead of your typical 220.

you do tend to nix things like oil, cheese, bread, nuts, and pasta, just so you can eat more, but don't have to. but, when you can either eat a tablespoon of oil for 120 calories, an extremely small amount of cheese, or a bowl of oatmeal, two pieces of fruit, bowl of ice cream, you tend to make the substitute. if you still want cheese, you could use just use a stronger cheese like asiago, but less of it, or a lower fat cheese like Lifetime sharp cheddar, mild mexican, etc. there is a type of pasta we're about to try for 1/3 the calories. we make our own pasta sauce that is just as good but half, etc). you also use different cooking techniques than just putting it in oil. you'd proably grill more, make more sauces, put salsas on fish and pork, use nonstick pans, and use vinegar combinations of dressings than oil and cream based. you begin to despise restaurants for wasting so many calories when they could've made the same dish for much less.

b) you're hungry all the time: if you weighed the amount of food i ate before, to what i eat now, i'd seriously guess i eat much more. the food just isn't as concentrated calorie wise.

you do give up a few things, but not much, and for a potential extra 20+ years for a few things, many of which suddenly look don't look at all appealing, it can be a pretty small sacrifice if you do it right. seriously, i love food more, and enjoy it more than ever. even without the prospect of longevity, i wouldn't go back.

someone asked what one eats, in general, lots of fruit (ex. usually the good stuff from Whole Foods, vegetables (ex. grilled vegetables, heirloom or marinated tomatoes, a nightly large salad has like 100 calories but fills you up and gets your nutrients), and lean meat (grass fed beef, pork tenderloins with a sauce, fish with salsas, egg white omlettes, etc). then maybe a few other random things, like the ice cream with strawberries/choc sauce, vitabrownies/muffins, stallone protein pudding, baked cinammon apples, beef jerky, kashi oatmeal with fruit, waffles with zero cal syrup, are some examples).

example: today, eating pluots, apple, carrots to snack, celery, Stone Crab Claws, bran crisps with heirloom tomatos, some odd melon, Seared Buffalo with a coffee Rub, large salad, Vitamuffin, low cal breyers ice cream with walden farms, along with some other random fruit and vegetables, green tea, diet sodas, coffee with zero cal davinci vanilla sweetner

hungry-girl.com has some good tips on trimming unnecessary calories and recommendations for commercial products.

more...

Edited by bodyhacker_com, 27 August 2007 - 07:17 PM.

[bodyhacker_com]

C) Strength: have always been to the gym. used to weigh 160 lbs, with 10-12% body fat, and benched maybe 245-265lb. to be sure, i'm weaker. now down to 138-140lbs, with 4-5% body fat, and probably max 215-225. on the other hand, people were cheering me on doing pull ups yesterday when i did 30 (was kind of embarrassing). Resting Heart rate is down from 59-60bpm, to as low as 38 bpm. blood pressure from 115/65, to 100/60, cholesteral 115 down from 165, and i could probably do a short triathalon.

D) Appearance concerns about looking frail: obviously much thinner, and have gotten some negative comments, but they might change their mind if they were to see me with my shirt off. have never looked so ripped and never thought i could get this ripped without added performance boosters. definitely suffer from vanity and remain concerned about getting too thin, but am more than happy with appearance now. if it gets too be too bad, may consider the bioidentical horomones or something.

more...

Edited by bodyhacker_com, 27 August 2007 - 05:37 PM.

[bodyhacker_com]

E) Science: for longevity, there has to be more studies showing the benefits on primary and secondary aging on CR than all other aging studies/methods/compounds combined. it's not irrefutable, but at a minimum, even if you don't get to say 100 due to a bad gene (which account for 25% of lifespan according to one study), you'll have almost a 0% chance of dying of a stroke, heart attack, or diabetes, and a much much lower chance of getting cancer. these things kill 75% of the people out there. there are tons of studies showing this in dozens of species, with many human trials showing the same effects. i doubt you'll get the same 40% extension, but even 10-20% is a lot of years. given there are thousands of studies, and gerontologists really don't debate it even more, not wanting to do the diet out of lifestyle considerations is certainly understandable, but lack of supporting research, not so much. there's just too much of it. the worst case scenario is you wouldn't have to worry about diseases that kill 75% of the people, while there is plenty of real evidence to suggest you have a decent shot of making it to 100 in good condition if you take care of yourself, something only 8 in 100,000 people do.

F) negatives: you're cold often. negative stigma from family and society both about appearance and oddness, can create strain on relationships, libido down but not out and might have to supplement later, women can't do it if having children, and you give up some things. in the end, it's a bad idea to tell anyone how to live their life or give unsolicited advice on anything. everyone has different values, beliefs, strengths and weaknesses, and it's not fair to judge. 'judge not, yest ye be judged.' one of the downsides is you do need to be a little obsessive, weigh things, look at packages, think about food more, that type of thing.

hope the above helps

Edited by bodyhacker_com, 27 August 2007 - 06:26 PM.

[Mind]

I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I am repeating a thought. For some people, including myself, it is something of a wager. I know my family history and a lot of the risks associated with my life. I know it is highly likely that I could improve my health by some small degree by adopting CR (although not for sure, because I currently have almost the same exact stats as body_hacker, 36, 6'3", 175 lbs...and I eat 2500 to 3000 calories a day...I have a high metabolism. If I dropped anymore calories I think I might look like a skeleton). So I am placing a personal wager that medical technology will advance enough within the next 20 to 30 years to reverse some of the effects of aging and cure/treat most diseases...so much so to give me another 20 to 30 years, without having to go through CR. My current diet and exercise regimen keeps me healthy and I feel fine. I think about calories a bit, but I don't let it stop me from indulging at times.

[Karomesis]

karomesis, I asked Matt this once before, and now I'll ask you: Is that low heart rate solely the result of your intermittent fasting, or do you do aerobic exercise too?

I actually don't do aerobic exercise in the traditional sense, I use Tabata Protocols (also known as HIIT) as my primary heart maintenance method, 3:50 seconds of pure unadulterated brutality using everything from rowing machines & punching bags to weights and medicine balls. I've been an athlete my entire life with only a few months of sedentary activity so my heart has always been fairly healthy. My IF regimen is responsible for roughly a 4 bpm drop, as my RHR was aporx 52-53 before adopting it.


I use IF for its advantages over regular CR, like these

http://www.pnas.org/...ourcetype=HWCIT

I simply cannot adopt a strategy that will limit my capacity to further myself financially as well as physically and IF allows me the luxury of getting incredible benefits with close to none of the disadvantages. When viewed in light of evolution, one has to concede that we weren't designed to eat every day, this was almost impossible up until very recently in our history. The hormetic changes that occur with IF allow the reproductive process to continue unabated, the most perfect and pristine state of health means nothing to evolution if our ability to procreate is hindered.

[bodyhacker_com]

that's fantastic karomesis and a great example of doing what works for you. psychologically, it would be difficult for me to sustain such an intermittent fasting cycle, however maybe i will give it a shot every once in a while, say go to 3000, then fast the next day or some variation. thx for that link also. haven't read about anyone that has tried the IF technique so am fascinated. do you have the low body temperature as well? your other numbers look CR'd, so that's a great alternative for some, even if they were to fast every third or fourth day.

Edited by bodyhacker_com, 28 August 2007 - 08:32 AM.

[Athanasios]

I use IF for its advantages over regular CR, like these

http://www.pnas.org/...ourcetype=HWCIT

Have you taken a look at MR's critique of IF?:
http://www.imminst.o...t=0

What do you think of his argument?

[david ellis]

luminous

With the wide variety of customary dietary intake of everyone throughout the history of human existence--from subsistence living/near starvation through eating habits that lead to morbid obesity...surely every variation of food intake and caloric level has aready been "tried." Don't you think that if an ideal calorie-restricted diet exists that could significantly extend human lifespan, CR would have been already been discovered well before the modiern studies on mice--and widely known by now?

I don't know about the "widely known" part, but you are right about "throughout the history" Here is Herodotus's take on the matter, c 400 bc.

…..[3.22] …… [W]hereupon he asked what the Persian king was wont to eat, and to what age the longest-lived of the Persians had been known to attain. They told him that the king ate bread, and described the nature of wheat - adding that eighty years was the longest term of man’s life among the Persians. Hereat he remarked, “It did not surprise him, if they fed on dirt, that they died so soon; indeed he was sure they never would have lived so long as eighty years, except for the refreshment they got from that drink (meaning the wine), wherein he confessed the Persians surpassed the Ethiopians.”

[3.23] The Icthyophagi then in their turn questioned the king concerning the term of life, and diet of his people, and were told that most of them lived to be a hundred and twenty years old, while some even went beyond that age - they ate boiled flesh, and had for their drink nothing but milk………

[samtemp07]

In response to Luminous' post:

For a very long time, the longest average lifespan has been held by the people living in the Okinawan islands off of Japan. The Japanese live a long time (lower calorie diets than most), but the Okinawans leave them in the dust.

These are not rich folk. They are simple village folk who have culturally had a very low calorie diet consisting mainly of fish.

Unfortunately, Okinawa is losing its high lifespan berth due to the McDonaldization of even its own island.