130 replies to this topic

[tommy]

hi,

had jioned a long time ago,but didn't write much,but did keep reading the forum. still strubeling with diet and which supplement really work.

lately i read a e-book called eatstopeat by brad pilon. he had some interesting things too say. 1 a 2 times a week 24 our mini fast, you will have the effect of fasting en CR. i saw people talking about this aproach on this forum before. few years back i tried fasting 1 day a week . eat monday skip teusday,eat wednesday again, that came down at 36 our fast and didnt do well on it. with the mini fast i feel good sofar.

did someone read it as well.

tom

[forever freedom]

I'm not into CR/IF (don't know yet which i'll do) mainly because i'm just 19 and i'll wait until i reach 21 y.o.; starting too soon may yield more problems than benefits, even though i think i've already grown as much as i was supposed to (i'm 6'4'' and it's been 3 years since i haven't gained any height anymore), but we never know.


The one reason that could possibly keep me from going into CR/IF is that the benefits on the human lifespan haven't been proven yet. But since i gain more quality of life regardless of the possiblity of increased lifespan may be enough to get me into it. In 2 years i'll decide.

[wootwoot]

The problem is that a CR diet does not fit with most people's diets and most people would rather not have to sacrifice taste for more beneficial foods, at least I wouldn't.

[Johan]

Healthy foods can still be tasty, ne? At least I think so, but I might be biased.

I want to do CR, but I think I'm still a little too young (like sam988, I'm 19 years old). I don't eat that much anyway (maybe 1800-2000 kcal/day of healthy foods), and I haven't gained any height for about 4 years (I'm 5'9").

What are the problems of starting CR too early? Like when you're 19 and haven't gained any height or significant body mass for a couple of years.

[Matt]

If your height has stayed the same in the last 4 years I don't believe there is any reason to not do CR. Some say because of brain development continues well into your mid 20's... but there is no evidence to my knowledge that CR affects this. I lost weight from a healthy diet at age 18, so it was CR, then went on a proper CRON diet at age 20. I never gained any height since I was like 16 and I'm only 5ft 7"

Edited by Matt, 27 December 2007 - 07:36 PM.

[TianZi]

Why aren't most people here doing CR?

Pizza, Beer and Ice Cream

Mmm. That hot gooey cheese and spicy tomato sauce atop a thick soft crust basted in garlic. Top that off with some greasy pepperoni, red peppers, onions, mushrooms and olives. Sprinkle on a few tasty basil leaves and fire it in the brick oven for a bit. Wash down 4 or 5 pieces with a good microbrew or three and then chase that calorie hell with a peanut butter cup laden waffle bowl of chocolate ice cream with hot fudge.

It seems from certain recent studies that CR's benefits likely result from stimulation of the SIRT1 enzyme, and that Resveratrol's life-extending benefits also result from stimulation of this enzyme. In light of this promising research, we *may* be able to enjoy the benefits of CR through supplementation, whilst avoiding the rigors of such a severely restricted diet.

Is anyone aware of a study on mice employing both Resveratrol and CR against control groups employing only one of these interventions? If the life-extension provided by the combined intervention isn't significantly greater than either intervention employed alone, that would be good evidence that we may be able to mimic the effects of CR in humans without the restrictive diet.

Edited by TianZi, 21 January 2008 - 08:12 AM.

[lucid]

It seems from certain recent studies that CR's benefits likely result from stimulation of the SIRT1 enzyme, and that Resveratrol's life-extending benefits also result from stimulation of this enzyme. In light of this promising research, we *may* be able to enjoy the benefits of CR through supplementation, whilst avoiding the rigors of such a severely restricted diet.

Is anyone aware of a study on mice employing both Resveratrol and CR against control groups employing only one of these interventions? If the life-extension provided by the combined intervention isn't significantly greater than either intervention employed alone, that would be good evidence that we may be able to mimic the effects of CR in humans without the restrictive diet.

The animals on CR given resv have a slightly shorter lifespan than those animals which are on CR alone. I read another paper recently suggesting that another class of genes may be responsible for a large part of the CR effect. Hmmm I'll try to go and find it.

[lucid]

study:

MSN2 and MSN4 link calorie restriction and TOR to sirtuin-mediated lifespan extension in Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
Medvedik O, Lamming DW, Kim KD, Sinclair DA.

Paul F. Glenn Laboratories for the Biological Mechanisms of Aging, Department of Pathology, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts, United States of America.

Calorie restriction (CR) robustly extends the lifespan of numerous species. In the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae, CR has been proposed to extend lifespan by boosting the activity of sirtuin deacetylases, thereby suppressing the formation of toxic repetitive ribosomal DNA (rDNA) circles. An alternative theory is that CR works by suppressing the TOR (target of rapamycin) signaling pathway, which extends lifespan via mechanisms that are unknown but thought to be independent of sirtuins. Here we show that TOR inhibition extends lifespan by the same mechanism as CR: by increasing Sir2p activity and stabilizing the rDNA locus. Further, we show that rDNA stabilization and lifespan extension by both CR and TOR signaling is due to the relocalization of the transcription factors Msn2p and Msn4p from the cytoplasm to the nucleus, where they increase expression of the nicotinamidase gene PNC1. These findings suggest that TOR and sirtuins may be part of the same longevity pathway in higher organisms, and that they may promote genomic stability during aging.

PMID: 17914901 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

[Shoe]

I wouldn't be able to pursue my athletic career if I was on CR. To possibly add an extra, say, decade to my lifespan simply wouldn't be worth the sacrifice of it.

[dr_chaos]

Would it be the same thing if there was a certain bodyfat percentage to aim for? It would be less vague.

You'd have the same problems with bodyfat measuring as with calories. Everyone has a different baseline and therefore the same number can have a slightly different meaning in two people.

[Johan]

When you're on CR, what percentage of your daily calories should come from protein, carbs, and fats?
Off the top of my head, I would hazard a guess at something like 30% from protein, 40% from carbs (complex ones) and 30% from (healthy) fats. How does that sound?

I imagine you would need a slightly higher percentage of protein compared to eating ad lib, since your body needs the same amount of protein as it did before CR, except now you eat less. So a larger percentage of your caloric intake has to come from protein to meet the body's needs.

Edited by namingway, 24 January 2008 - 10:42 PM.

[Matt]

I wouldn't be able to pursue my athletic career if I was on CR. To possibly add an extra, say, decade to my lifespan simply wouldn't be worth the sacrifice of it.

you don't know that it would only be a decade. There was a british study recently showing that just eating healthy, not smoking, not drinking a lot and so on can together add 14 years to your life. For all you know, calorie restriction might add 20 - 30 years to your lifespan. If started young enough. The obesity avoidance Rhesus monkey study who had their calories restricted lived on average to 32 years (96 human years)... and that wasn't even real anti aging kind of CR, just a restriction relative to monkeys who totally gorged on food.

[health_nutty]

I'm actually just taking up intermittent fasting.

My version cuts my calories about 40-50 percent every third day. I might to every other day eventually.

Edited by health_nutty, 30 January 2008 - 07:36 PM.

[edward]

Intermittent fasting for me is also the only way I can make CR work for my goals. I want to live a long time (forever would be nice) but I want to live well, and I want to look and feel healthy. I also don't want to weigh out everything I eat and live in what seems to me a jail of structure and rigidity. Taking my supplements 3 times a day is enough rigidity for me. I do a modified fast once or twice a month for two days (I take supplements, drink lots of water and eat protein powder during this time) depending on my schedule. I have also used the CRON-O-METER to track my natural food consumption for nutritional gaps and overall natural energy intake. I have found that my natural (well not natural but the healthy eating habits I have developed over the years, mainly from when my goals were more of the bodybuilding type, maximize muscle mass minimize bodyfat) actually has some calorie restricted periods built in. My net calorie intake per month is restricted even if my daily intake on a given day isn't. Thats as good as it is going to get for me any more and I would begin to look waifish, which I really do not want, not to mention there would be cries of "eating disorder" from family members.

I looked at some lectures on here presenting findings on calorie restriction vs. exercise vs. exercise + CR vs. nothing, I was really impressed with the effects of exercise alone so I figure that with my diet + my exercise routine I am getting almost the same benefit that a full fledged CR program would give me and Ill still look good with my shirt off and have enough energy to work, go to school, play or whatever.

edit: add to this my supplements, including CR mimetics and things are looking pretty good... though I'm still wondering about the CR + Resveratrol yielding reduced lifespan, while Resveratrol alone or CR alone increased lifespan

Edited by edward, 30 January 2008 - 08:20 PM.

[health_nutty]

Edward, I feel exactly the same way.

[pseudo-princess]

I'm quite interested in calorie restriction, and at the moment I do a moderate version of it....I have even before I knew it's benefits.
Why? First, since it is the only proven (well not in humans, but I'd say that primate studies are sufficient evidence for me) method of life extension; I'm interested in anti-aging for cosmetic reasons as much as for medical ones. Second, I have a very slow metabolic rate, so if I've done calorie restriction since my early teen years to avoid obesity.

I'd like to do do a more extreme version of it in a few years, but right now I'm a student and don't have the resources for supplements, etc.
However, I do think it's acceptable to cheat on this diet for social reasons; I don't mean going to McDonalds, but the occasional slice of pizza (if it's made up for by fasting the next day) is fine.

Food on an average day is... (I estimate calories instead of weighing for the most part, since I don't have a scale)

-Breakfast:
-Bran Muffin (390 cal), maybe a few grapes. Water.

Lunch: Kale/spinach/lettuce salad with a mixture of other raw veggies such as tomato, onion, sprouts, radish, peppers etc; protein (chicken breast, fish filet - both cooked in water, tofu, soy cheese); a bit of light vinagrette dressing.

Dinner: A variation of the above as well.

When I crave something sweet, I try to eat grapes or small portions of tapioca pudding - sometimes sugar free, sometimes with sugar.

I estimate that I average about 1500 calories per day.

(I'm female; 4'5")



And a side note about CR and eating with the family....I only cook for myself now, but when I lived with my parents and cooked for them too, or when I make dinner for my boyfriend, I can often manage to eat the same foods as I'm making for them, and adjust the proportions. Almost every meal I cook comes with a low-calorie salad/raw or steamed vegetable dish of sorts, so I "fill up" on that. I normally avoid complex carbohydrates but I'll have like, a table-spoonful of rice or pasta. I don't cook with red meat even for others; I usually use fish or chicken or egg or soy for protein. If the marinade/method of cooking,etc, of it is too high calorie, I'll eat a much smaller portion, and then supplement with a low-calorie protein after. I also try to keep much of my cooking gluten and dairy (do eggs count as dairy?) free as much as possible.

[donjoe]

I don't have the time and equipment to measure and calculate everything that needs to be measured and calculated in order to do CR, to control the amount of CR and to make sure I'm getting enough of all nutrients to stay healthy. It just seems like a full-time job to me.

---

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

Edited by donjoe, 20 February 2008 - 08:21 PM.

[Johan]

It's not as hard as it sounds - what you need to have is a nutrition software (like CRON-O-METER), a gram scale, and some time to put together a set of nutritionally balanced meals. I started CR relatively recently. I eat mostly the same things from day to day, so that means I have to do even less work - once I have my recipe, I can re-use it over and over. It took me some time to decide on the foods I currently eat, but once it was done, that was it, basically.

[senseix]

well

#1) i think very few people in the health section are actually 'immortalists'. most are just looking for advice/discussion on living a balanced and healthy lifestyle

#2) CR in general makes you extremely skinny and waify looking... very different of the standard male archetype that most of us aspire to.

#3) theres not enough evidence to prove that the gains in lifespan would be significantly more than that of a balanced, healthy diet.

Those are good points, i like to be muscular myself, couldn't stand being a 35 year old man and super skinny. When i was 15 it was ok, but these days i prefer having a built look.

[Matt]

When I had a bmi of 20 it felt like I was a tank or something lol. So heavy on my feet and made me feel just awkward. Can never imagine being any higher! I think it's probably because I have a small body frame too.

Edited by Matt, 21 February 2008 - 04:45 AM.

[eldar]

After doing intermittent fasting for about 9-10 months now, I have decided to stop. At least for a while. The reason is that I have develop a weird chronic runny nose syndrome. That is, every time I eat something, I get a runny nose.
I think this might have something to do with body temperature changes, since while on IF my body temperature is much lower while fasting versus during eating periods. So now I'm going to start eating normally and see if this condition goes away.
If it does, I doubt I can go back to IF without making significant changes to my regime. Pity though, as it was going great if it weren't for this condition.

If anyone else has experienced the same effect, I'd like to hear your comments.

Edited by ceth, 21 February 2008 - 06:28 AM.

[eldar]

Ok just a quick update: my condition was indeed caused by IF like I hypothesized. The runny nose problem has mostly disappeared and it has only been three days since I stopped IF.
One thing that I miss is the clarity of mind that I had during fasted state. But this was largely countered by the somewhat foggy mind during the eating period. Now I just feel the same all the time. Not exceptionally wired but not foggy either.

[luminous]

Ok just a quick update: my condition was indeed caused by IF like I hypothesized. The runny nose problem has mostly disappeared and it has only been three days since I stopped IF.
One thing that I miss is the clarity of mind that I had during fasted state. But this was largely countered by the somewhat foggy mind during the eating period. Now I just feel the same all the time. Not exceptionally wired but not foggy either.

This may be exactly what you are doing, but I read about a certain way to practice IF whereby you never go a whole day without a meal. The plan I read about uses 6:00 pm as the on/off time, though any hour would probably work. The plan is to stop eating at 6:00 pm and then go the whole next day without eating--until 6:00 pm. Then you eat that night and throughout the next day--until 6:00 pm. Then the fast begins again. I tried this last week, and it wasn't that hard for one day. I stopped eating after 6:00 pm on Monday night, then went until 6:00 pm on Tuesday night before eating again. I was pretty hungry on Tuesday, but just knowing I'd be able to eat after 6:00 pm made it a bit easier to bear. One issue was that I'd planned to repeat the fast on Thursday/Friday, but then someone at work asked me to go out to lunch on Friday. I'm pretty sociable and just started a new job last week. I didn't want to say no, so I went ahead and broke the fast. (I did have a nice visit.) Will try again. I figure that this sort of thing comes up often, and you just have to get back on track without treating it as a failure. Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone else here has tried this type of IF; if so, please let us know about your experiences.

Edited by luminous, 24 February 2008 - 07:51 PM.

[forever freedom]

After doing intermittent fasting for about 9-10 months now, I have decided to stop. At least for a while. The reason is that I have develop a weird chronic runny nose syndrome. That is, every time I eat something, I get a runny nose.
I think this might have something to do with body temperature changes, since while on IF my body temperature is much lower while fasting versus during eating periods. So now I'm going to start eating normally and see if this condition goes away.
If it does, I doubt I can go back to IF without making significant changes to my regime. Pity though, as it was going great if it weren't for this condition.

If anyone else has experienced the same effect, I'd like to hear your comments.

You stopped doing IF just because your nose gets runny when you eat? Or your fear that other worse consequences could happen?

[kenj]

I'm jumping in & out of cal restriction, so, no, sadly not doing it consistently, - although I hope to reap *some* benefits (for starters lost some 20 pounds over the last year).
ISTM, reaching the 120 year border/mark, via cal restriction does require long-term shifting the body from 'reproduction mode' into 'maintenance mode'. Here's a summary from Robin Holliday (2007):

"All the evidence is combatible with the general view that cell and tissue maintenance is essential for the normal survival of the adult organism, and that ageing is associated with the eventual failure of such maintenance. Moreover, the resources invested in maintenance are inversely related to those invested in reproduction. There is a tradeoff between the two: as one increases, the other decreases, and vice versa. The balance is set by the particular adaptation and life style of the species in question."

Whatttt, - we can't have the cake and ... eat it, too? ;-). Although, interestingly, ISTM we have the possibility to gear our body into a more reproductive state, at (almost) any time, by upping cals for a while.

[xEva]

Periodic fasts, short or long, suite me better. Can't stand routine of any sort and never counted calories. And it's always fun to watch the body renew when you start eating.

[eldar]

Ok just a quick update: my condition was indeed caused by IF like I hypothesized. The runny nose problem has mostly disappeared and it has only been three days since I stopped IF.
One thing that I miss is the clarity of mind that I had during fasted state. But this was largely countered by the somewhat foggy mind during the eating period. Now I just feel the same all the time. Not exceptionally wired but not foggy either.

This may be exactly what you are doing, but I read about a certain way to practice IF whereby you never go a whole day without a meal. The plan I read about uses 6:00 pm as the on/off time, though any hour would probably work. The plan is to stop eating at 6:00 pm and then go the whole next day without eating--until 6:00 pm. Then you eat that night and throughout the next day--until 6:00 pm. Then the fast begins again. I tried this last week, and it wasn't that hard for one day. I stopped eating after 6:00 pm on Monday night, then went until 6:00 pm on Tuesday night before eating again. I was pretty hungry on Tuesday, but just knowing I'd be able to eat after 6:00 pm made it a bit easier to bear. One issue was that I'd planned to repeat the fast on Thursday/Friday, but then someone at work asked me to go out to lunch on Friday. I'm pretty sociable and just started a new job last week. I didn't want to say no, so I went ahead and broke the fast. (I did have a nice visit.) Will try again. I figure that this sort of thing comes up often, and you just have to get back on track without treating it as a failure. Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone else here has tried this type of IF; if so, please let us know about your experiences.

Yeah, I did it this way for couple of months, but I switched to 20 hours fasting, 4 hours eating every night. Both ways worked out just as well. The reason I switched to the 20/4 in favor of what you described, was that it made social events easier, as I could eat every night. It really isn't hard at all, the hunger will go away in a couple of days and you won't feel any need to eat during the fast.

[eldar]

After doing intermittent fasting for about 9-10 months now, I have decided to stop. At least for a while. The reason is that I have develop a weird chronic runny nose syndrome. That is, every time I eat something, I get a runny nose.
I think this might have something to do with body temperature changes, since while on IF my body temperature is much lower while fasting versus during eating periods. So now I'm going to start eating normally and see if this condition goes away.
If it does, I doubt I can go back to IF without making significant changes to my regime. Pity though, as it was going great if it weren't for this condition.

If anyone else has experienced the same effect, I'd like to hear your comments.

You stopped doing IF just because your nose gets runny when you eat? Or your fear that other worse consequences could happen?

I think you are underestimating the severity of the condition. I had to constantly keep wiping my nose the whole time I ate, so it made the whole event of eating pretty awkward. Not to mention any social situations where I had to eat and people kept asking me whether I have caught the cold...

I must add that I was trying to grow muscle at the same time, thus I was forced to eat quite a lot in a small amount of time. But I don't see how this would contribute to the issue that I had.
For now I plan on eating normally for a half a year or so, growing muscle mass and then try some form of IF again with a goal of only maintaining lean muscle mass.

Edited by ceth, 09 March 2008 - 11:28 AM.

[eldar]

Does anyone know what is the current opinion on taking resveratrol while on CR?

Matt, or anyone else actually doing CR, do you take resv?
I tried searching the CR Society archives but I couldn't find anything on the subject. Lot of general discussion on resv, but nothing about whether cronies actually take it.


While I'm at it, another question for you cronies:

How gradually did you start out? I've been reading that it is recommended to drop calories gradually during a time frame of 6 months to 2 years. 2 years seems like an awfully long time...

Edited by ceth, 10 March 2008 - 09:45 AM.