130 replies to this topic

[rshack]

CR exerts its effects by inducing proteins such as SirT1 and nicotinamide phosphoribsyltransferase. These proteins are also induced by flavoinods like quercetin and the green tea flavonoid EGCG. A diet high in plants and low (lower) in "greesy cheeseburger-type foods" would somewhat mimic CR. SirT1 is also induced at least in skeletal muscle by exercise, so a good diet and exercise will go a long way. Not very dramatic advice, but the molecular biology underlying this is well-established. If anyone wants references, I'll give them.

[sentrysnipe]

Because I am already too skinny to begin with to do CR. I blame my thyroid levels. Matt, the last photo of yours that I saw you look quite emaciated. :(

[Matt]

Because I am already too skinny to begin with to do CR. I blame my thyroid levels. Matt, the last photo of yours that I saw you look quite emaciated. :(

The last photo, I'm not sure which one you're talking about. I have a few on my website though here:
http://www.matthewla....com/photos.htm

By the way I've gained since July 2007. I went from 105lbs to 110lbs.

This photo was actually me at my very lowest weight of about 105 lbs. I think that be somewhere around a BMI of 16.4
http://www.matthewla...mages/matt6.JPG

The problem with starting skinny is you end up even skinnier... however I'm quite happy now with a BMI above 17, and no one really says anything anymore.

Edited by Matt, 11 March 2008 - 05:52 PM.

[sentrysnipe]

Because I am already too skinny to begin with to do CR. I blame my thyroid levels. Matt, the last photo of yours that I saw you look quite emaciated. :(

The last photo, I'm not sure which one you're talking about. I have a few on my website though here:
http://www.matthewla....com/photos.htm

By the way I've gained since July 2007. I went from 105lbs to 110lbs.

This photo was actually me at my very lowest weight of about 105 lbs. I think that be somewhere around a BMI of 16.4
http://www.matthewla...mages/matt6.JPG

The problem with starting skinny is you end up even skinnier... however I'm quite happy now with a BMI above 17, and no one really says anything anymore.

Thanks for sharing, I saw your site, and it reads 95/60 was your Avg BP last April 07? That's uh borderline hypotension... GSE, Idebenone, and Resveratrol are vasodilators, you think you're taking too much of them? Or too little of EPA/DHA?

[Matt]

My blood pressure can go as low as 90/60 and I've never had symptoms associated with it. I'd rather keep my blood pressure really low anyway to offset the risk of hemorrhagic stroke which is found in more people who have low cholesterol levels (like me). I think I've always had a low pressure really considering I have always been athletic since I was a kid. But my Sister and father who is over 50 now and has the same blood pressure as me and they do nothing special lol.

Edited by Matt, 11 March 2008 - 07:11 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

How do you practice Cr if you are already skinny?Should you gain a lot of weight until e.g a bmi of 22 and then start reducing from that point,I don't really understand how you measure your percent cr?

Matt:Do you think it is a good idea to combine cr with consuming large amounts of antioxidants like Vitamin C, E,antocyanids and beta caroten? Wouldn't it slow down the aging process even more through neutralizing more free radicals?
Another question,I have naturally a body temperature of 36.0 C,is that a good thing?How low someones body temperature be naturally without side effects?
Sorry if the questions are too simple

[Matt]

How do you practice Cr if you are already skinny?Should you gain a lot of weight until e.g a bmi of 22 and then start reducing from that point,I don't really understand how you measure your percent cr?

No, you don't gain weight, some people might actually be on some version of CR for some of their life without actually trying anyway. You know I believe I've been on a CR (not CRON) diet for a lot of my teen years. I practically lived on cereals, I never got many calories and I was real skinny. I was also underweight on and off throughout my childhood. Plus my height is less than the average male here in the UK. I would just say don't go to a BMI below 16 and you should be fine. 17 feels good for me and i don't look terribly skinny like I did back then.

Matt:Do you think it is a good idea to combine cr with consuming large amounts of antioxidants like Vitamin C, E,antocyanids and beta caroten? Wouldn't it slow down the aging process even more through neutralizing more free radicals?

No it probably wont help. What helps is a healthy diet. If there is any supplement right now that I would always consider having with a CR diet, that is Vitamin D3. Others probably one do much I don't think. However I take them lol

Another question,I have naturally a body temperature of 36.0 C,is that a good thing?How low someones body temperature be naturally without side effects?
Sorry if the questions are too simple

First it depends on the site of your measurement. ear, rectal, oral, under arm all have different readings. If that is your oral temperature then this is good for longevity and anti cancer benefits according to research/. My under arm temperature has been as low as 34.8 degrees C and I never had no problems, though this is smack bottom of the safe range, later in the day it rises obviously. Most CRers tend to land around 36.0 degrees C oral temperature though.

[Esoparagon]

Imagine you died at 80 and 5 years later they cure aging. That'd be such a shame. That's why I think I will most definitely start CR when I turn 20 or 21.

[DrEvil]

Two weeks ago I reduced my meat intake from 5 times a week to once a week. I started on CR a week ago.
Not sure how long I will keep up CR but at least to 10% weight loss.
So far so good..my allergy has disappeared. I knew this would happen, since I have been on CR before 25% weight loss,
for about a year. I was really skinny, people thought I had aids.

If I was a girl I would go CR and get boob implants and would still be quite hot. For a guy going CR and looking all skinny really sux.
Not eating is the easy part.. I can go without food for 24h not problem.. I actually prefer it, saves time . However being all gaunt in the face and the constant disapproval of everybody is the worst.
Are there any girls out there that are into CR guys?
Should we form a CR town?

[Matt]

So far so good..my allergy has disappeared. I knew this would happen, since I have been on CR before 25% weight loss,
for about a year.

Yeah I noticed the same thing So do many other people that go on CR.

I was really skinny, people thought I had aids.

For a guy going CR and looking all skinny really sux.

Yeah, I think I look a little unhealthier when I'm at my lowest weight. I can easily see it in the face for example. Though I try not to think about it anymore and just get on with life.

Are there any girls out there that are into CR guys?

Well that don't just depend on weight does it. But still I guess its definitely harder to get a girl being so skinny.

The problem now is that people are getting fatter all the time, so we appear even smaller. I've noticed that UK websites in the comment sections when the topic of weight and celebs come up, the comment section is full of nasty comments for skinny but healthy looking celebs, whereas there is all praise for women that just imo look flabby or on the heavier side of normal. Here's an recent example.

Top picture. she says being heavier is the best shes been. It's probably not healthy in the long run than if she had a good diet and maintained low body weight. Everyone seems to be praising more fat these dayshttp://www.dailymail...1-5-stones.html

Cheryl Cole. The majority of the comments are all negative. I think she looks fine, and hot...
http://www.dailymail...ns-Glasgow.html

Generally it seems that there is now much bad talk about being skinny and more people praising the flab. Maybe men now like bigger ladies because they're fat or obese themselves. Or maybe it also works there other way in which now I prefer skinny women because Im skinny . hmmm

Definitely a difficult time to be skinny

Edited by Matt, 14 June 2009 - 05:09 PM.

[JLL]

People hating on skinny celebrities just want to make themselves feel good about being fat. I say shrug the haters off, it ain't nuttin' but envy.

[1kgcoffee]

Main reasons I'm not doing CR:
1. My job is physically demanding. I wouldn't have enough energy.
2. I'm short (5'6") and the only advantage I have with the ladies and society is all that extra muscle mass. If I were pinner, I'd get less respect from both.
3. I'm already taking resveratrol along with other health improving substances. Combined with a healthy diet, I don't see enough benefit.

[singularityFan]

I have read two pages worth of threads and will finish off the rest, but just wanted to give my reason for not doing calorie restriction.

As I'm currently in my late 20s, I think that I could easily last until the following come: drugs, more advanced biotech, and even advanced nanotech.
In other words, I think I stand a good chance at reaching longevity escape velocity as long as I take good care of myself, even without calorie restriction.

Seems like the least advanced part of this list (drugs) has a good probability of simulating calorie restriction within a decade or two, if not sooner, to give me a boost.

I view the most important things are to dodge life threatening diseases by having a healthy diet + exercise regimen, as well as be careful so as to avoid accidents.

[Ghostrider]

Main reasons I'm not doing CR:
1. My job is physically demanding. I wouldn't have enough energy.
2. I'm short (5'6") and the only advantage I have with the ladies and society is all that extra muscle mass. If I were pinner, I'd get less respect from both.
3. I'm already taking resveratrol along with other health improving substances. Combined with a healthy diet, I don't see enough benefit.

Same here with number 2. If you fall below around 5'10" as a male, your weight matters more or at least that's how it seems. At 5'7" and around 120 pounds, I already feel far too light, almost sick looking in a t-shirt and shorts. I may actually be practicing CR without knowing it. I don't watch my calories, but I would not be surprised if I am averaging 1500 or below. I spoke with a psychologist and he mentioned that the number one physical trait women are insecure about is their weight. I blame the media for that one. Anyway, it makes sense, if women are insecure about their weight, then they will need someone who makes them feel more feminine -- someone significantly bigger. What can I say, size matters for both men and women.

Seems like the least advanced part of this list (drugs) has a good probability of simulating calorie restriction within a decade or two, if not sooner, to give me a boost.

I hope so too. However, even if they do become available, we would have to wait more than a lifetime to determine if CR would provide any additional benefit on top of the drugs. If you knew you were going to make escape velocity, you would still want to be as youthful as possible to be preserved in your best possible state. Aging is damaging us and it might be a long time before the damage can be fully reversed (cognitive decline).

Edited by Ghostrider, 24 June 2009 - 08:49 PM.

[russianBEAR]

I don't believe that humans have any control over their longevity.

I think the time of death is encoded in your DNA or on some basic level like that, so when it's time to go, it will interact with the external environment and kill you one way or another. It's an esoteric sort of a belief, it's not really based on anything.

Also wouldn't it suck if you're limiting "caloric pleasures" like the beer/pizza the poster above me described and then you die anyways while doing CR after gettin ran over by a car or some bs like that. 

Some of these centenians or whatever are probably into shamanic rituals - they may already be half dead, just the will of the spirit is keeping their projection here

On top of all that I'm about 6'1 and weigh about 165-170 pounds when dressed in 100 pounds of steel Since I do a lot of basketball, and my job is mentally demanding, I'd probably die. I don't ever gain weight no matter what I eat either, I think it's because I smoke weed.

Edited by russianBEAR, 03 July 2009 - 08:04 AM.

[bacopa]

Russian bear there are alot of promising studies explaining that CR could make us live longer. And you will always have the risk of accidents. So why bother living longer at all? That's not a solid argument. I basically was only eating a meal a day due to my depression. I guess that is CR. however I now eat much more and don't think I could starve myself. I get extremely uncomfortable and anxious when I'm hungry. That's why I can't do it. Maybe if I took a supplement that surpressed my appetite I could do it. Does anyone know of any good appetite surpressing supplements?

What about those three, or more, studies that show chubby people live longer?

[russianBEAR]

Russian bear there are alot of promising studies explaining that CR could make us live longer. And you will always have the risk of accidents. So why bother living longer at all? That's not a solid argument. I basically was only eating a meal a day due to my depression. I guess that is CR. however I now eat much more and don't think I could starve myself. I get extremely uncomfortable and anxious when I'm hungry. That's why I can't do it. Maybe if I took a supplement that surpressed my appetite I could do it. Does anyone know of any good appetite surpressing supplements?

What about those three, or more, studies that show chubby people live longer?

That IS the argument though there's no point in trying to live longer, none whatsoever. I mean, I didn't come to this forum for the immortality/anti-aging part at all. Just saw that yall are into nootropics and shared my experiences with some of them. So it was never my goal to try to increase my lifespan (which if you want to do anyways, I think it is only possible if you live very very far away from any civilization, because "the big city" is killing you daily anyways and you're never in your natural habitat as a species but rather around blocks of concrete and polluted streets).

All these studies change too - one day it's "coffeee is horrible for you" the next month it's "coffee increases lifespan! breakthrough study!" in the same newspaper on the same page. Same with everything else. I thought anti-oxidants were a gift from god, and a panacea, but some years ago people started criticizing them big-time etc. etc. Wouldn't it suck if you do something for a long time, then a new study comes out saying it was actually very very detrimental to your existence ?

[bacopa]

Russian bear there are alot of promising studies explaining that CR could make us live longer. And you will always have the risk of accidents. So why bother living longer at all? That's not a solid argument. I basically was only eating a meal a day due to my depression. I guess that is CR. however I now eat much more and don't think I could starve myself. I get extremely uncomfortable and anxious when I'm hungry. That's why I can't do it. Maybe if I took a supplement that surpressed my appetite I could do it. Does anyone know of any good appetite surpressing supplements?

What about those three, or more, studies that show chubby people live longer?

That IS the argument though there's no point in trying to live longer, none whatsoever. I mean, I didn't come to this forum for the immortality/anti-aging part at all. Just saw that yall are into nootropics and shared my experiences with some of them. So it was never my goal to try to increase my lifespan (which if you want to do anyways, I think it is only possible if you live very very far away from any civilization, because "the big city" is killing you daily anyways and you're never in your natural habitat as a species but rather around blocks of concrete and polluted streets).

All these studies change too - one day it's "coffeee is horrible for you" the next month it's "coffee increases lifespan! breakthrough study!" in the same newspaper on the same page. Same with everything else. I thought anti-oxidants were a gift from god, and a panacea, but some years ago people started criticizing them big-time etc. etc. Wouldn't it suck if you do something for a long time, then a new study comes out saying it was actually very very detrimental to your existence ?

Have you done much reading on the real things that could allow us to live radically longer lives like SENS Foundation and the Methuselah Mouse Prize? You should read up on aging theories and you'll find out that they are already making progress growing new organs and one article said something like they kept a liver living indefinitely. So if they can do this with organs why not with entire people? Life extension is real science and there is already alot that is being thought of and being worked on to combat the aging process. Of course things like uploading our brains, or the information from our brains, into a silicon substrate could one day prevent most accident from happening. Don't give up on living longer just because of accidents.

Russian bear there are alot of promising studies explaining that CR could make us live longer. And you will always have the risk of accidents. So why bother living longer at all? That's not a solid argument. I basically was only eating a meal a day due to my depression. I guess that is CR. however I now eat much more and don't think I could starve myself. I get extremely uncomfortable and anxious when I'm hungry. That's why I can't do it. Maybe if I took a supplement that surpressed my appetite I could do it. Does anyone know of any good appetite surpressing supplements?

What about those three, or more, studies that show chubby people live longer?

That IS the argument though there's no point in trying to live longer, none whatsoever. I mean, I didn't come to this forum for the immortality/anti-aging part at all. Just saw that yall are into nootropics and shared my experiences with some of them. So it was never my goal to try to increase my lifespan (which if you want to do anyways, I think it is only possible if you live very very far away from any civilization, because "the big city" is killing you daily anyways and you're never in your natural habitat as a species but rather around blocks of concrete and polluted streets).

All these studies change too - one day it's "coffeee is horrible for you" the next month it's "coffee increases lifespan! breakthrough study!" in the same newspaper on the same page. Same with everything else. I thought anti-oxidants were a gift from god, and a panacea, but some years ago people started criticizing them big-time etc. etc. Wouldn't it suck if you do something for a long time, then a new study comes out saying it was actually very very detrimental to your existence ?

Have you done much reading on the real things that could allow us to live radically longer lives like SENS Foundation and the Methuselah Mouse Prize? You should read up on aging theories and you'll find out that they are already making progress growing new organs and one article said something like they kept a liver living indefinitely. So if they can do this with organs why not with entire people? Life extension is real science and there is already alot that is being thought of and being worked on to combat the aging process. Of course things like uploading our brains, or the information from our brains, into a silicon substrate could one day prevent most accident from happening. Don't give up on living longer just because of accidents.

[russianBEAR]

It's not really all about accidents, that was just part of it. As you saw my main theory is that people's lifespan is in the DNA and there's nothing you can do about it. Some are encoded to die at 6 years old, others get to have until 100 years old. It's kinda like people have different height and weight type of thing.

Also I don't believe living way too long is beneficial, it's actually very very selfish - at some point you have to succumb to nature and give way to younger generations. I'd hate to be taking up space with my 200+ years old of accumulated snobbery, so others don't get their chance in the sun.

My view is that life is a quest, once you complete your particular one, you're good to leave the planet and make room for others, so I really don't have a goal to live longer at all.

[bacopa]

It's not really all about accidents, that was just part of it. As you saw my main theory is that people's lifespan is in the DNA and there's nothing you can do about it. Some are encoded to die at 6 years old, others get to have until 100 years old. It's kinda like people have different height and weight type of thing.

Also I don't believe living way too long is beneficial, it's actually very very selfish - at some point you have to succumb to nature and give way to younger generations. I'd hate to be taking up space with my 200+ years old of accumulated snobbery, so others don't get their chance in the sun.

My view is that life is a quest, once you complete your particular one, you're good to leave the planet and make room for others, so I really don't have a goal to live longer at all.

That's cool and I respect your opinion. But no one said we can't figure out the population overload problem. If we were to live to 300 even we would just have to have less children. That's the obvious solution. Plus of course how long we live is in our DNA, no one is arguing that and it's a pretty accepted reality now. Scientists are looking for ways to repair damages on the molecular level to DNA and everything related to it. There are seven known causes of aging like Mitochondria Mutation, Nucleur Mutation, Intra and extra cellular junk accumulating and some others. There are also different aging theories such as free radical accumulation theory, Somatic Mutation Theory, wear and tear theory and programmed death theory, (which is pretty much been disproven.) Aubrey De Grey thinks that repairing cellular damage like an engineer would maybe the easiest way of going about the problem and it may in fact be easier to reverse the aging process rather than slow it down. I don't know the reasoning behind this. And as I said earlier there may not be a need to worry about overpopulation because the longer lived we get also the wiser. And I'd rather have long lived people who have a chance to practice their professions that they've spent their whole lives learning to do. I think it's a shame that you spend most of your life perfecting a skill set and than are forced to die as a result. Besides look at it this way Tortoises live sometimes well over two hundred years and they have no population problems? So instead of thinking of just the negative things that longevity will cause try thinking of all the good that can come with it. Aging is a degenerative disease itself that causes Cancer, diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimer's and many more. Vast majority of people who die of aging, which is most people, suffer terribly in their final years. There is nothing selfish about wanting to continue the journey that we started! This is our lives and if you're like me I don't believe anything happens after we die except decomposing in the ground. In a potentially godless universe human beings make the morals I believe. It's morally wrong to have to suffer old age and die I think.

Sorry one more thing I thought of. For many people like me they suffer with all kinds of debilitating illnesses. For instance I have chronic depression. It might not get solved for another twenty or more years? I refuse to suffer most of my life and only become happy in the last twenty or so years, if that even happens. Instead if I lived another hundred or more years I could buy more time to fix my chronic problem. There are many people with physical health problems that are suffering as we speak, and would just love to have much more time to live finally a good and happy life! I believe life is a rare thing and for those lucky enough to have it should hang on to it as long as they can. Because it only happens once. Someday we will colonize other planets and solar systems so we will have plenty of space to live happy and fulfilling lives. Don't you want to be around for that time?

Edited by dfowler, 03 July 2009 - 09:36 AM.

[russianBEAR]

These are also solid arguments you presented, but  I believe if we were meant to be immortal then we would be already. Some fish live like, what...two weeks? Some monkeys less than half of humans? I'd say we're pretty fortunate anyways

I really don't agree that aging is some kind of a disorder/disease. If it is - then so is growth, I don't think anyone says all this hormone transactions and gaining height/weight are a pathology, and since aging is the reverse of that it seems pretty balanced to me. I'm definitely repulsed by the idea of gettin old, but I'm pretty sure once it happens I'll just embrace the inevitable and go from there.

Tortoises are kind of slow, they're still trying to get together for a date they scheduled 6 years ago... both are almost there Becoming wiser and limiting newborns becasue there are a gazillion people who are 1000 years old taking up all the resources also sounds like some book I read about the older elite taking out youngster's organs so they can live forever...it's like you have your day in the sun, now move on and let other do so

The rest is just typical human nature - of course you want something to happen that is beyond your lifespan, but still be able not to miss out on anything. That's why people come up with end of the world theories - it'd be nice if the world ends now then I'm one of the last people to ever live, and there's noone after me so I'm not missing nothing it's great ; )

Edited by russianBEAR, 03 July 2009 - 09:44 AM.

[bacopa]

These are also solid arguments you presented, but  I believe if we were meant to be immortal then we would be already. Some fish live like, what...two weeks? Some monkeys less than half of humans? I'd say we're pretty fortunate anyways

I really don't agree that aging is some kind of a disorder/disease. If it is - then so is growth, I don't think anyone says all this hormone transactions and gaining height/weight are a pathology, and since aging is the reverse of that it seems pretty balanced to me. I'm definitely repulsed by the idea of gettin old, but I'm pretty sure once it happens I'll just embrace the inevitable and go from there.

Tortoises are kind of slow, they're still trying to get together for a date they scheduled 6 years ago... both are almost there Becoming wiser and limiting newborns becasue there are a gazillion people who are 1000 years old taking up all the resources also sounds like some book I read about the older elite taking out youngster's organs so they can live forever...it's like you have your day in the sun, now move on and let other do so

The rest is just typical human nature - of course you want something to happen that is beyond your lifespan, but still be able not to miss out on anything. That's why people come up with end of the world theories - it'd be nice if the world ends now then I'm one of the last people to ever live, and there's noone after me so I'm not missing nothing it's great ; )

t
sorry Russian bear I just erased my reply! I'll do it again. As for your statement of whether we were "meant to be immortal we would be already," I'll begin there. Humans evolved and succeeded due in large parts to our bigger heads which gave rise to bigger and better brains. We are not a particularly robust species and in fact are very fragile and prone to disease. Don't forget just over a hundred years plus ago we were dying from the common cold at ages like 40! But did we say that's our lot in life and there's nothing we can do? Hell no! Instead we used science to find cures to those diseases that we think nothing of now. So now we live about twice as long and often more. But what I'm really saying is that things will continue to progress, perhaps exponentially, so trying to make the argument that it is selfish to want to live longer is futile because it's going to happen as people's number one fear is death. Living longer will create much wiser people exponentially so when we have brain implants and better medicines for the brain. Being super smart and super knowledgeable from living much longer will only yield much better solutions to all of the problems you are bringing up. We will have the time and save money on health care for the elderly and insurance and actually save trillions of dollars being wasted on aging populations as of now. If that isn't incentive and proves not to be selfish I don't know what is!

As for why I said aging is a disease it's basically because it acts on the body as a disease. It mutates our cells, kills cells, and eventually destroys the body like rust destroys a car. In the end we all succumb to age related diseases like cancer, etc. When we age we grow frail, our bones become weaker, our brains slower and our physical movements much slower. All this is in keeping with a disease type of explanation.

As for resources I would say nanotechnology which is on the horizon now will create unlimited resources which can be used for energy and food etc. I don't know much about it but nanofactories could allow for materials to be created from a molecular level and I don't see why this couldn't be a huge machine in the growth of new resources. If anyone else knows more about this feel free to chime in.

Finally on a very personal level I've never wanted to die myself. Maybe you are more comfortable with it but I don't trust there is a God and am sure there is no afterlife, so I'll do anything possible to stay alive as long as I can. Is this selfish? I don't think so and I stated my reasons for why. But I do think death is selfish it kills a hundred thousand people a day from aging alone. That's one hundred thousand brains full of information, personalities, and dreams and hopes destroyed in an instant. Even if I was being selfish this is completely intolerable to me and I will not stand for it anymore. Death has never seemed like a reasonable solution for me and I have always known that there has to be an alternative.

[Mind]

I saw this LEF update about not grilling food in order to avoid cancer and it made me think about this thread again. For a great many people, grilled food, in particular grilled red meat, is a great pleasure in life. The news about the association with cancer is widespread now but people continue the practice of grilling because they want to enjoy the particular aspect of life called eating. I know most of you are familiar with this. lol.

I think that is the main reason most people do not take up CR, even Imminst members. Eating is a great pleasure. Sometimes people want to eat a big meal or some particularly delicious food that has a negative effect on lifespan. I do it (although less than most). As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I look at the trade-off and am willing to take a few chances. If I can't enjoy life than I don't want to live it. Of course, many Americans take eating too far, and are obese, tilting the balance of enjoyment vs. longevity way out of proportion (IMHO). But I am not one to force people to stop eating - as long as they pay for their own healthcare.

Anyway, there are other possible methods of life extension besides semi-starvation. What about the hypoxic response? What about hypothermia?

So your average person looks at the prospect of semi-starvation (and not eating delicious foods when you do eat - no grilling), being cold, and depriving you body of oxygen, and come to the typical conclusion that it is not worth it.

[electricbuddha]

All these studies change too - one day it's "coffeee is horrible for you" the next month it's "coffee increases lifespan! breakthrough study!" in the same newspaper on the same page.

There really aren't any newspapers out there with really good science/medicine news. It just seems contradictory because pop science reporters either don't have the background to understand both the methodology and context of the study or not enough time to write a proper review of it.

[Hedrock]

> Why aren't most people here doing CR?

Because we don't want! We fasted one million years and now we want to eat!

One million years of history humen beings were caloric restricted. They died early in their thirties or fourties . Maybe without diseases they would have lived a hundred years.

But no immortal has been ever created by caloric restriction!

Take a look to africa: People are hungry when they go to bed. But do african people live longer than people in the US or people in Europe?

No!

"Caloric restriction" (=hunger) is the biggest field experiment in the world, but has not worked yet. Sorry for my cynism.

Better and more food and better live conditions make us live longer. This does not mean that obesity is a good thing.

CR might be good for some health and aesthetic points. And it will give you maybe 5 years to live longer.

But immortality is not about living 5 years longer.

The medicine is the key for immortality, not CR!

Edited by Hedrock, 18 July 2009 - 08:21 AM.

[neuronex]

> Why aren't most people here doing CR?

Because we don't want! We fasted one million years and now we want to eat!

One million years of history humen beings were caloric restricted. They died early in their thirties or fourties . Maybe without diseases they would have lived a hundred years.

But no immortal has been ever created by caloric restriction!

You're right, but immortality has not been created by medicines either. The trick is to extend lifespan long enough so that if these 'immortality medicines' were to be discovered in the future, you'd be there to receive it. Hence Life Extension. Immortality is the surprise around the corner.

Take a look to africa: People are hungry when they go to bed. But do african people live longer than people in the US or people in Europe?

No!

"Caloric restriction" (=hunger) is the biggest field experiment in the world, but has not worked yet. Sorry for my cynism.

I'm sure that most advocates of CR would include the words ...with optimal nutrition in their pitch. The Africans you mention hardly have access to foods which provide optimal nutrition. How can you reasonably compare the two?

But immortality is not about living 5 years longer.

Right again. But living five years longer might mean being around when immortality is realized.

[Hedrock]

You're right, but immortality has not been created by medicines either. The trick is to extend lifespan long enough so that if these 'immortality medicines' were to be discovered in the future, you'd be there to receive it.

Sure? Maybe we have already the philosophers stone with our telomere lengtheners.

Telemore lengtheners have been discovered recently. Testing now. There haven't been too much studies.

Maybe these compounds are the key. We can't be sure without waiting for the results.

But I'm very sure, CR is not the key! And that's the difference.

Right again. But living five years longer might mean being around when immortality is realized.

Yes! This could be a good reason for CR.

Also there could be some health indications for that.

Im not against CR principially. I just think it has nothing to do with immortality and longvity by CR is a bit relative, couse you have less energy in the time you win. It's just an normal effect described in the "Rate-of-living-theorie".

[neuronex]

From a life extension point of view - I can understand why people practice it. However, I don't practice CR because:

I've no idea how it affects things like, for example, cognition. If 100 of those CR Rhesus monkeys were put into a room - would Shakespeare's works still appear? I've no basis for this assumption - but I'd prefer a diet tailored to optimal bodily function, than one tailored to providing a few additional years.

I find it difficult to apply myself sincerely to a practice like CR, while simultaneously being deeply involved with family, friends and work/studies. I find I'm more productive if I eat healthily - so that I can eat when I feel hungry and enjoy the time-out which I find eating a meal provides. I enjoy the social bonding which sharing a common meal with other people provides.

The thing is, it's an awful pain in the ass )

Maybe CR does provide the boost to lifespan to see me around when Immortality is a viable option - but seriously, I'm still not seeing immortality as something that I'm that dedicated to. Not at the (possible) cost to my interaction with this experience of life.

[quasi13]

From a life extension point of view - I can understand why people practice it. However, I don't practice CR because:

I've no idea how it affects things like, for example, cognition. If 100 of those CR Rhesus monkeys were put into a room - would Shakespeare's works still appear? I've no basis for this assumption - but I'd prefer a diet tailored to optimal bodily function, than one tailored to providing a few additional years.

I find it difficult to apply myself sincerely to a practice like CR, while simultaneously being deeply involved with family, friends and work/studies. I find I'm more productive if I eat healthily - so that I can eat when I feel hungry and enjoy the time-out which I find eating a meal provides. I enjoy the social bonding which sharing a common meal with other people provides.



Maybe CR does provide the boost to lifespan to see me around when Immortality is a viable option - but seriously, I'm still not seeing immortality as something that I'm that dedicated to. Not at the (possible) cost to my interaction with this experience of life.

That's pretty good insight from my experience. Did you ever try it, or is this just how you imagine it to be? I gave CR a trial run, and the negatives you mentioned were what I found but I may be atypical.

I gradually worked into it over ~6 months. As most people advise, I shot for optimal nutrition first and then cut calories. I stopped lifting weights at the onset, but I kept up my other exercise regimens (core + cardio). I lost ~25 lbs over that time periods, I'd say half fat half muslce (I'm 5'10", now 150lbs). I was never hungry, but I found myself food-obsessed. My life revolved around it. I found that I was no longer enjoying anything after about 4 months, but I never really pinned that on CR (and still haven't directly). I also had less and less energy by the day and I was less and less interested in socializing, school, and work. And my libido completely vanished!

It recently occurred to me that I was becoming depressed. I went through a bout of it in my late teens so I know I'm susceptible. Plus it runs in my family. I don't know if CR led to depression or v.v. or whether CR just made my ultra mild depression less mild. It could be a total coincidence. But for me, I now consider CR to be playing with fire. It would probably lead to a longer life, but it seems too costly in that it lowers my overall enjoyment of life. I envy those of you that can do CR without it taking a mental toll as it seemingly did to me!

[kismet]

I've no idea how it affects things like, for example, cognition. If 100 of those CR Rhesus monkeys were put into a room - would Shakespeare's works still appear? I've no basis for this assumption - but I'd prefer a diet tailored to optimal bodily function, than one tailored to providing a few additional years.

That's because you did not follow the science. Most studies suggests that CR improves cognition and quite obviously the delta will only increase in the long term. There is no one diet tailored for "optimal bodily function". The opportunities of our body are too different (running marathons, writting poems, living forever or bodybuilding are not likely to involve the same diet and body composition)

Maybe CR does provide the boost to lifespan to see me around when Immortality is a viable option - but seriously, I'm still not seeing immortality as something that I'm that dedicated to. Not at the (possible) cost to my interaction with this experience of life.

That is a very common argument and in a sense I think alike, but where do we draw that arbitrary line? Why not do all those neat drugs? It sure would be enjoyable in the short term, damn would it be enjoyable in the short term! But apparently we're not doing something that will shorten our life (a lot), even if it makes it (a lot) more enjoyable. Why not? I think it has got more to do with being afraid of change. Afraid of changing from baseline. Because both accelerating your demise to enjoy life some more or slowing it down while enjoying life somewhat less, would involve (drastic) change. We are much better at dealing with subtle changes.

It recently occurred to me that I was becoming depressed. I went through a bout of it in my late teens so I know I'm susceptible. Plus it runs in my family. I don't know if CR led to depression or v.v. or whether CR just made my ultra mild depression less mild. It could be a total coincidence. But for me, I now consider CR to be playing with fire. It would probably lead to a longer life, but it seems too costly in that it lowers my overall enjoyment of life. I envy those of you that can do CR without it taking a mental toll as it seemingly did to me!

Again, quite unlikely (not impossible). Anecdotes are certainly worthwhile to some degree, because we're not animals, but I don't think your blaming CR for depression can be backed up by science. I think it might be a case of confirmation bias & post hoc ergo propter hoc. Or you simply had bad luck (statistics and all that, not everyone lives under the bell curve...)

http://www.imminst.o...p;hl=happy mice

Edited by kismet, 18 July 2009 - 04:41 PM.