121 replies to this topic

[EmbraceUnity]

The results from studies on intermittent fasting seem even more positive than normal caloric restriction. Has anyone heard anything to the contrary?

I have seen studies done for mice that alternate daily between 50% calorie diet and 150% calorie diet. The results were nearly as positive as those for intermittent fasting. This seems much easier to do.

I am a 20 year old male. I am 6'0" and weigh 160 pounds, with 5.2% body fat. I was thinking of trying something like 500 calories one day, 2500-3000 calories the next day, and so on.

Considering my age, gender, and level of activity, some nutritional calculators that I have used recommend 3500 calories per day, and though I love food and can eat quite a lot when I want to, I just naturally have always needed less (2000ish).

Exercise should be done on days were one is not fasting, correct? Or should it be done early in the day during a fast? I hear the benefits of a fast and exercise come from the body learning to cope with stress, but I don't know if they should be done together.

Furthermore, how would one's supplementation regimen be affected? Would less, more, or different supplements be needed? Any supps to avoid while fasting? Any to increase?

[eldar]

I have seen studies done for mice that alternate daily between 50% calorie diet and 150% calorie diet. The results were nearly as positive as those for intermittent fasting. This seems much easier to do.

I remember reading some studies where the results very not nearly as good for the 50% calorie diet group than the one that had near 0% calories during the fast day. And yes there are also studies that show benefits with both 50% and 0% regime. So it seems there might be
some benefits with the 0% regime that are not achieved with 50% regime. I really can't say anything for certain as I haven't read the studies that thoroughly.(Which I should and intend on doing when I have time).

As for it being easier to do, I really don't see that as an issue. I follow a 24h fast/24h free eating schedule and other than the first few days when starting out, I have not felt any hunger nor food cravings during the fast.
I use 4pm as a cut off time at which point I start or end my fast. Doing it like this makes it easier, as I do get to eat every day. The first day from 4pm onwards and the next day from morning till 4pm.

Exercise should be done on days were one is not fasting, correct? Or should it be done early in the day during a fast? I hear the benefits of a fast and exercise come from the body learning to cope with stress, but I don't know if they should be done together.

Personally I wouldn't do any heavy training on fasting days. Even more so if one intends on building muscle. For my schedule I see the optimal time for training being soon after the eating period has started. This way I have almost 24h to eat and build muscle before the next fast.

Also I like to break the fast with something light, like a salad, around 4pm and maybe an hour or so later take my pre-workout shake/meal. This isn't based on any strong science, but more on a gut feeling that it might be better to start with something lighter and slowly digesting.

Furthermore, how would one's supplementation regimen be affected? Would less, more, or different supplements be needed? Any supps to avoid while fasting? Any to increase?

This is something I've been wondering myself. As of now I do not take any supplements during the fast except vitamin c(and green tea if you can call that a supplement). I do take supplements every day though, but I take them during my eating periods.


I strongly suggest you head over and check out the Intermittent fasting group on yahoo
http://tech.groups.y.../group/fasting/

The group is quite active and there is also a fair share of posts regarding the science behind IF.

[luv2increase]

Hey whatever floats your boat. Personally, it just seems like a scary, freaky, and odd way of living one's life.

[niner]

Hey whatever floats your boat. Personally, it just seems like a scary, freaky, and odd way of living one's life.

Until ten thousand years ago, intermittent fasting was the way everyone lived their life.

[Matt]

I'm not sure that it's proven that IF extends lifespan more than calorie restriction without the CR being part of IF. IF might have some improved benefits over CR, but I haven't seen any information showing equivalent maximum lifespan extension in the absence of CR.

I tried IF for a little while, it's easy... but it also seemed pointless because I'm doing CR for almost 3 years now and having ZERO issues with hunger. Although this may not be everyones experience of course

[eldar]

IF might have some improved benefits over CR, but I haven't seen any information showing equivalent maximum lifespan extension in the absence of CR. 

I tend to agree.
I'm only doing this over CR because of vanity issues. CR makes you skinny while on IF you can actually gain muscle. If it weren't for that I would choose CR.

[william7]

Hey whatever floats your boat.  Personally, it just seems like a scary, freaky, and odd way of living one's life.

I thought for sure you were a faster. What about the Scriptures? That's what the people of the Book did.

IF, combined with a vegan diet, is superior to CR in my opinion. I was on CR against my will under very stressful conditions for about four years. I frequently suffered from hunger during this period but gutted it out.

I would strongly urge you young college people involved in medical studies to take a serious look at the fasting literature and experiment with it.

I strongly suggest you head over and check out the Intermittent fasting group on yahoo
http://tech.groups.y.../group/fasting/

Thanks for posting this Yahoo IF group link Ceth! I'm going to start following their posts closely.

[luv2increase]

Hey whatever floats your boat.  Personally, it just seems like a scary, freaky, and odd way of living one's life.

I thought for sure you were a faster. What about the Scriptures? That's what the people of the Book did.

I am. I believe in maybe 2-3 juice fasts for 3-5 days each a year. Not eat food one day and completely abstain the next and repeat the cycle indefinitely.

[Ghostrider]

Why does food make me sleepy? I had a very light breakfast (instant breakfast) and had nothing else until dinner. I enjoyed great energy and concentration. I have kind of a large (for me, but not for the average person) dinner and now I just want to sleep. Sucks.

[luv2increase]

Food allergens, low blood sugar, or starchy/sweet foods can cause this.


It could be one of these or a mixture of them. Try staying away from starchy or sweet foods and see if that helps. If it doesn't, I would get your blood sugar levels checked out to see if you have diabetes. If you have allergies to the foods being consumed, it can cause these problems too.

[Matt]

Why does food make me sleepy? I had a very light breakfast (instant breakfast) and had nothing else until dinner. I enjoyed great energy and concentration. I have kind of a large (for me, but not for the average person) dinner and now I just want to sleep. Sucks

Why we snooze after Sunday lunch

University of Manchester researchers have discovered how the nerve cells in the brain that keep us alert become turned off after we eat...

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/5037720.stm

[Ghostrider]

The human body has an in-built mechanism which means that when the body needs fuel, the brain chemistry creates alertness.

This makes sense. It also explains why I feel dumber after college because I ate less in college (not intentionally, just due to laziness (no refrigerator meant that I had to go some place for food + class schedule or busyness meant that I skipped a meal sometimes), I come home and have food in fridge whenever I want, well, more food = less concentration. I definitely felt the improved concentration today while fasting, far outpaced any nootropic and probably even coffee. And I did not feel starved either, just felt like I was very productive with good concentration.

[electric buddha]

I strongly suggest you head over and check out the Intermittent fasting group on yahoo
http://tech.groups.y.../group/fasting/

The group is quite active and there is also a fair share of posts regarding the science behind IF.

Another post of thanks for that link. I'm on every day CR right now, and I have to admit that IF seems like it has a high potential for adding additional benefits.

[luv2increase]

I think intermittent fasting is more healthy psychologically more so than just physically than CR. Think about it for a moment. If you are practicing CR, people 'may' think that you are sickly, unhealthy, and/or anorexic. This has to mess with the mind of the CR practicer. This, in turn, will cause depression and can cause all sorts of problems with their lives in various aspects.

I think it can cause problems whether they like it or not. If it doesn't cause problems on the outside, it is possibly being suppressed into the subconscious.

I don't think monkeys had to worry about this yet humans do. I wonder what would happen if that factor could have been introduced (I know it is impossible) into the experiments of CR. I am sure there would have been a different result!

[electric buddha]

If you are practicing CR, people 'may' think that you are sickly, unhealthy, and/or anorexic.  This has to mess with the mind of the CR practicer.  This, in turn, will cause depression and can cause all sorts of problems with their lives in various aspects. 

I think it can cause problems whether they like it or not.  If it doesn't cause problems on the outside, it is possibly being suppressed into the subconscious. 

I don't think monkeys had to worry about this yet humans do.  I wonder what would happen if that factor could have been introduced (I know it is impossible) into the experiments of CR.  I am sure there would have been a different result!

I've never met anyone on CR in person, aside from myself, but I think one of the main points is muscle. If someone isn't working out, the result is skin and bones when CR removes the fat. I only have myself ot offer up as an example, but I've been able to maintain a fair amount of muscle mass, at least more than any of my friends who get moderate exercise. I have a bit more freedom than most in being able to schedule my workouts and supplement with creatine on top of it, but assuming I'm not too unusual a case it's certainly possible to be on CR and not be skinny.

[Matt]

The rhesus monkeys in the NIA studies have apparently become quite depressed in their little cages. We all know just how bad stress is when it comes to longevity and diseases like cancer, heart disease etc... However the Wisconsin monkeys are doing better.

[Mind]

I find intermittent fasting much easier than CR (although I have not practiced either for a long priod of time)...and if IF it has the same or greater benefits then I would opt for IF.

For me it has to do with the fact that if I eat several very low calorie meals I am constantly hungry all day and even when I sleep. It is really annoying. I find that when I fast for a day, I am only hungry when I wake up for maybe an hour and then it mostly goes away.

[metavalent]

Why does food make me sleepy?  I had a very light breakfast (instant breakfast) and had nothing else until dinner.  I enjoyed great energy and concentration.  I have kind of a large (for me, but not for the average person) dinner and now I just want to sleep.  Sucks.

Personally, I've found the pursuit of the right diet a lifelong [dance | battle | interaction] with individual body chemistry. Along these lines, I found the book "You Are What You Eat" (ISBN-10:0452287170 ISBN-13:978-0452287174) surprisingly practical and helpful on a very rudimentary (in the positive foundational sense of the term) level. Particularly, the concept of food combining on pages 78 to 80 is very straightforward and has worked well for helping me better understand various food sensitivities. "Tired All The Time" is page 103. There's more to it, but a handy side-bar explains:

"Afternoon [well, anytime] energy slumps are a sign of poor adrenal function, poor metabolism of carbohydrates and sugars, natural or otherwise, as well as nutrient-depleted foods."

I speculate that one of the greatest disservices to the health of U.S. citizens over the past 50 years have been these various "Food Pyramid" type devices which tend to reinforce the idea of a One-Size-Fits-All solution for managing something as complex as the diversity of individual human body chemistries. While I can fully understand the right-minded desire to reduce dietary complexity down to some kind of general guidelines (if for no other reason that to help ensure a healthy workforce), like so many good deeds, this one too goes well-punished by various misinterpretations and hypervigilent misapplications.

For instance, my 78 y.o. mother-in-law still insists that anyone who does not comply with the 3 "square" meals a day regimen, complete with Meat-n-Potatoes (a terrible chemical combination for anyone who suffers bloating) for dinner, is fatally flawed and of suspect moral character. IF or CR? Absurd!

It's almost funny until we pause to realize just how many 48 year olds were trained up by that cohort and have passed it on, uncritically and unwittingly to their 18 y.o.'s.

[Brainbox]

Hmmmm....

Varady KA, Roohk DJ, Loe YC, McEvoy-Hein BK, Hellerstein MK.
Department of Nutritional Sciences and Toxicology, University of California at Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720.

Calorie restriction (CR) affects adipocyte function and reduces body weight. However, the effects of alternate-day fasting (ADF) on adipose biology remain unclear. This study examined the effects of ADF and modified ADF regimens on adipocyte size, triglyceride (TG) metabolism, and adiponectin levels in relation to changes in body weight and adipose mass. Twenty-four male C57BL/6J mice were randomized for 4 weeks among 1) ADF-25% (25% CR on fast day, ad libitum on alternate day), 2) ADF-50% (50% CR on fast day), 3) ADF-100% (100% CR on fast day), and 4) control (ad libitum). The body weight of ADF-100% mice was lower than that of the other groups (P < 0.005) after treatment. Adipose tissue weights did not change. Inguinal and epididymal fat cells were 35-50% smaller (P < 0.01) than those of controls in ADF-50% and ADF-100% animals after treatment. Net lipolysis was augmented (P < 0.05) in ADF-100% mice, and the contribution from glyceroneogenesis to alpha-glycerol phosphate increased in ADF-50% and ADF-100% mice, whereas fractional and absolute de novo lipogenesis also increased in ADF-50% and ADF-100% animals, consistent with an alternating feast-fast milieu. Plasma adiponectin levels were not affected. In summary, modified ADF (ADF-50%) and complete ADF (ADF-100%) regimens modulate adipocyte function, despite there being no change in body weight or adipose tissue weight in the former group.

PMID: 17607017 [PubMed - in process]

[william7]

Hmmmm....

Varady KA, Roohk DJ, Loe YC, McEvoy-Hein BK, Hellerstein MK.
Department of Nutritional Sciences and Toxicology, University of California at Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720.

Calorie restriction (CR) affects adipocyte function and reduces body weight. However, the effects of alternate-day fasting (ADF) on adipose biology remain unclear. This study examined the effects of ADF and modified ADF regimens on adipocyte size, triglyceride (TG) metabolism, and adiponectin levels in relation to changes in body weight and adipose mass. Twenty-four male C57BL/6J mice were randomized for 4 weeks among 1) ADF-25% (25% CR on fast day, ad libitum on alternate day), 2) ADF-50% (50% CR on fast day), 3) ADF-100% (100% CR on fast day), and 4) control (ad libitum). The body weight of ADF-100% mice was lower than that of the other groups (P < 0.005) after treatment. Adipose tissue weights did not change. Inguinal and epididymal fat cells were 35-50% smaller (P < 0.01) than those of controls in ADF-50% and ADF-100% animals after treatment. Net lipolysis was augmented (P < 0.05) in ADF-100% mice, and the contribution from glyceroneogenesis to alpha-glycerol phosphate increased in ADF-50% and ADF-100% mice, whereas fractional and absolute de novo lipogenesis also increased in ADF-50% and ADF-100% animals, consistent with an alternating feast-fast milieu. Plasma adiponectin levels were not affected. In summary, modified ADF (ADF-50%) and complete ADF (ADF-100%) regimens modulate adipocyte function, despite there being no change in body weight or adipose tissue weight in the former group.

PMID: 17607017 [PubMed - in process]

What this mean in plain English?

[Matt]

I speculate that one of the greatest disservices to the health of U.S. citizens over the past 50 years have been these various "Food Pyramid" type devices which tend to reinforce the idea of a One-Size-Fits-All solution for managing something as complex as the diversity of individual human body chemistries

Although the food pyramid isn't good... I would argue that if you compare the 'actual' American diet diet to what is recommended, then you will see that very few people use any of the advice from that food pyramid. So in effect, it hasn't really done anything.

[EmbraceUnity]

By the way, this is a heads up for anyone wishing to try intermittent fasting, I highly recommend eating lots of fiber, chlorophyllin, and other healthy stool softeners.

[resveratrol]

OK, I'm now a 100% convert to intermittent fasting.

I can't believe how easy it is and how effective it is for weight loss. I'd expected hunger cravings and the like, but I haven't had any of that.

I'm 35, 6'1", and had gotten up to 206 lbs after the last few stressful months of my most recent project (tons of very late nights at work and massive milkshakes provided by our Producer at 3 AM added about 15 pounds over my normal weight). I spent more than 2 months after that trying to work it off at Gold's (3000 calories per week + CLA supplementation) and didn't lose a pound.

Then, in the last 4 weeks, I tried fasting:

Thursday: 204 lbs
the following Thursday, Friday, and Saturday: 199 lbs
the following Thursday and Saturday: 194 lbs
the following Thursday: 189.5 lbs

In a month, I've lost almost every pound I gained and I'm 0.5 pounds above my weight in college.

I can't believe so few people are doing this. It's really the easiest thing I've done in my life.

[Live Forever]

You guys got me curious, so I started googling around a bit on this. The first site that popped up was this one which recommended instead of waking up and starting the "day on/day off" which would end up being 14 hours on/34 hours off if you sleep for 8 hours a night, to set the cutoff for 6 pm. (eat all day up till 6 pm one day, then start fasting, and keep doing so until 6 pm the next day when you can eat dinner) The benefit being that you can eat each day, but you are doing a 24 on/24 off schedule still. (which was what was done with the rats that were tested) The guy writing it says it is much easier to do it that way.

The part where he discusses it:

Most rodents feed throughout the day and night, so restricting them for 24 hours does just that: it restricts them for 24 hours. In humans, however, the situation is different. We humans, for the most part, eat only during our waking hours. So if we fast for a day, we end up fasting for about 34 hours and eating for 14, which isn’t the same as 24 on, 24 off.

Let me show you what I mean.

Let’s say you pick a day to start. You eat all day, then go to bed, wake up in the morning and fast all day, then go to bed. You wake up the next morning and eat all day, then go to bed and start again. So, assuming you eat until 10 PM on your eat day, once you quit eating you don’t eat again until 8 AM 34 hours later. If you eat from 8 AM that day until 10 PM, you’ve eaten for 14 hours. so, you’re on (eating) for 14 hours and off (fasting) for 34. MD and I spent a couple of weeks doing it that way, and I’m here to tell you, it’s no fun. At least not on the fast days. The eating days were a different story; they were great, but we would spend the entire day dreading the fast day coming up.

We fooled around with a number of different eat-fast-eat regimens and came up with something that works pretty well. We set up our cutoff time as 6 PM. On the day we started, we ate until 6 PM, then fasted until 6 PM the next day. On the next day we ate supper right after 6 PM and ate breakfast and lunch (and a few snacks) the next day until 6 PM when we started fasting again.

The advantage of this regimen is that we were able to eat every day. One day we would get supper–the next day we would get breakfast and lunch. On no days would we go entirely without food. This schedule worked the best for us.

The rest of the article is kind of interesting too, but I found that most interesting.

[resveratrol]

Interesting, but it seems a bit pointless. I've found it extremely easy to fast for a full day at a time, particularly once you've done it once or twice and gotten past the psychological barrier and realized it's well within your capabilities.

[Shepard]

Hmmmm....

Varady KA, Roohk DJ, Loe YC, McEvoy-Hein BK, Hellerstein MK.
Department of Nutritional Sciences and Toxicology, University of California at Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720.

Calorie restriction (CR) affects adipocyte function and reduces body weight. However, the effects of alternate-day fasting (ADF) on adipose biology remain unclear. This study examined the effects of ADF and modified ADF regimens on adipocyte size, triglyceride (TG) metabolism, and adiponectin levels in relation to changes in body weight and adipose mass. Twenty-four male C57BL/6J mice were randomized for 4 weeks among 1) ADF-25% (25% CR on fast day, ad libitum on alternate day), 2) ADF-50% (50% CR on fast day), 3) ADF-100% (100% CR on fast day), and 4) control (ad libitum). The body weight of ADF-100% mice was lower than that of the other groups (P < 0.005) after treatment. Adipose tissue weights did not change. Inguinal and epididymal fat cells were 35-50% smaller (P < 0.01) than those of controls in ADF-50% and ADF-100% animals after treatment. Net lipolysis was augmented (P < 0.05) in ADF-100% mice, and the contribution from glyceroneogenesis to alpha-glycerol phosphate increased in ADF-50% and ADF-100% mice, whereas fractional and absolute de novo lipogenesis also increased in ADF-50% and ADF-100% animals, consistent with an alternating feast-fast milieu. Plasma adiponectin levels were not affected. In summary, modified ADF (ADF-50%) and complete ADF (ADF-100%) regimens modulate adipocyte function, despite there being no change in body weight or adipose tissue weight in the former group.

PMID: 17607017 [PubMed - in process]

What this mean in plain English?

Eat less, lose weight. Your body doesn't necessarily like that.

[Shepard]

The 24/24 that Dr. Eades talks about above is pretty damn easy and nice if you're exercising daily.

[Live Forever]

Interesting, but it seems a bit pointless.  I've found it extremely easy to fast for a full day at a time, particularly once you've done it once or twice and gotten past the psychological barrier and realized it's well within your capabilities.

Did you do an every other day approach?

The term "intermittent fasting" seems like a bit of a misnomer for an every other day approach. To me, intermittent means coming and going at odd intervals, not something that is a continuous pattern like every other day is. A better name would be "alternating fasting" or "every other day fasting" or something like that. (of course, this is probably just another example of me splitting hairs, haha)

[Live Forever]

The 24/24 that Dr. Eades talks about above is pretty damn easy and nice if you're exercising daily.

That is exactly what I was thinking. One could just eat dinner slightly before 6 pm one day, and slightly after 6 pm the next day. (or you could use any time, 7 pm, noon, whatever) It would be like you got to eat every day with the benefits of 24 hours on/24 hours off that they were doing in the rat studies.

[Shepard]

The term "intermittent fasting" seems like a bit of a misnomer for an every other day approach. To me, intermittent means coming and going at odd intervals, not something that is a continuous pattern like every other day is. A better name would be "alternating fasting" or "every other day fasting" or something like that. (of course, this is probably just another example of me splitting hairs, haha)

Which is the point De Vany makes. He puts the benefits of randomness above the benefits of the fasting itself.