209 replies to this topic

[Athanasios]

Most probably not. I have a lot of life to live, I can get more accomplished without them and can let others pop them out. If I want to spread my seed I will go to a sperm bank and get paid for it, not as romantic I know. If I absolutely feel the need, Ill volunteer at a daycare or bigbrother where I will likely spend more time with the kids than their parents.

The situation in which I would have kids is if the mother is capable and willing to take much of the burden for the first ten years or so.

[donjoe]

The situation in which I would have kids is if the mother is capable and willing to take much of the burden for the first ten years or so.

That nods in the direction of my own idea of a situation where I'd seriously consider having kids: if there was a cheap/free educational system wherein androids programmed with my core values and principles could do all the parenting with no direct involvement necessary on my part.

Edited by donjoe, 28 December 2007 - 06:58 PM.

[shuffleup]

I have one child already so my answer has to be 'yes'. Probably will have one more.

The objections to having kids are all correct but they are a lot of fun and what else are we here for, biologically speaking, anyway?

[DJS]

In the "real world" I bet this poll would be at least 2/3rds *definitely yes*. Quite a disparity in relation to the respondants of this thread. Interesting.

what else are we here for, biologically speaking, anyway?

Reminds me of that trainspotting quote:

Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life...

What makes us human - and of a higher order than the rest of the natural world - is our ability to commit to abstraction in a wide variety of areas. Turn this abstraction in upon oneself, turn oneself into a recursion, and you gain the choice/the ability/the freedom to embrace or override some of your psychological imperatives depending on whether or not they are in harmony with a pain stakingly conceived of goal set. At least to some degree. This is a higher plain of existence than the one inhabited by both the animals and the sheeple.

I can think of much more lofty goals than being biological ballistic material. So I guess I'll take fecundity of imagination, while others will satiate themselves with just plain fecundity.

Edited by Technosophy, 29 December 2007 - 02:50 AM.

[Grimm]

In the "real world" I bet this poll would be at least 2/3rds *definitely yes*. Quite a disparity in relation to the respondants of this thread. Interesting.

what else are we here for, biologically speaking, anyway?

Reminds me of that trainspotting quote:

Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life...

What makes us human - and of a higher order than the rest of the natural world - is our ability to commit to abstraction in a wide variety of areas. Turn this abstraction in upon oneself, turn oneself into a recursion, and you gain the choice/the ability/the freedom to embrace or override some of your psychological imperative depending on whether or not they are in harmony with a pain stakingly conceived of goal set. At least to some degree. This is a higher plain of existence than the one inhabited by both the animals and the sheeple.

I can think of much more lofty goals than being biological ballistic material. So I guess I'll take fecundity of imagination, while others will satiate themselves with just plain fecundity.

So what you are basically saying is that reproducing, ensuring the survival of the species is a worthless endeaver to be carried out by unenlightened sheep? How kind of you!

It was my understanding that the ultimate purpose of life was to continue life, to ensure that your species continues after your death! I must be an unenlighted sheep! Oh no!

[DJS]

Technosophy:
The world would be a lot better place if instead everyone just took a "live and let live" mentality

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” ~ Nietzsche

Both quotations contradict the spirit of your messages (with which I wholeheartedly concur). Otherwise luv's and your posts would count as equally valid and progress would never prevail. I would have speculated you are running for office if it weren't for the rather radical stance.

Which brings us to the distinction between morality and ethics, ilanso. Of course I am espousing a progressive ethic, with a strong emphasis on individual rights. I am not a relativist. However, at the same time (and I suppose this fusion of two separate trains of thought may have confused things) I don't operate according to a Kantian Categorical Imperative. Personal morality is, as far as I can tell, without ultimate justification.

Edited by Technosophy, 29 December 2007 - 03:10 AM.

[DJS]

So what you are basically saying is that reproducing, ensuring the survival of the species is a worthless endeaver to be carried out by unenlightened sheep? How kind of you!

It was my understanding that the ultimate purpose of life was to continue life, to ensure that your species continues after your death! I must be an unenlighted sheep! Oh no!

No. Please don't put words in my mouth that aren't remotely accurate. With the term sheeple I wished to communicate the notion of cognitions that follow cultural norms without even being consciously aware that they are doing so.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a breeder, IMO. Although, to be clear, my ultimate purpose in life is certainly not the continuation of the human species. With that said, I do sincerely hope that our cultural evolution doesn't result in an event of cataclysmic self destruction, as that would not be in my self interest.

So yes, I do wish humanity the best of luck in making further cultural/technological progress. I just don't have any delusions about my place in the scheme of things, or in my ability to influence macro-level events. As a consequentialist and a rational egoist I simply carry on fullfilling my desires, ever mindful of the cost/benefit.

Edited by Technosophy, 29 December 2007 - 03:30 AM.

[eternaltraveler]

does a super intelligence born out of me count as my child?

[basho]

... what else are we here for, biologically speaking, anyway?

Hopefully we can gain freedom from the limits of our biology, and thereby become so much more. Ultimately we're probably here for no purpose at all, its just the way things have turned out, which gives us as a species and as a society the freedom to define our own meaning to existence and our own direction into the future.

[basho]

...reproducing, ensuring the survival of the species is a worthless endeaver

You may not have noticed, but we're pretty much our own worst enemy at the moment when it comes to ensuring the survival of the species. I don't think anyone is arguing that there are not enough humans on the planet. If you want to do something at the scale of species survival, try thinking of ways to establish viable populations beyond Earth. Having all our eggs in one basket is a big risk if you're concerned about the future of the human species.

It was my understanding that the ultimate purpose of life was to continue life, to ensure that your species continues after your death! I must be an unenlighted sheep! Oh no!

Where did this "ultimate purpose" come from? Unless someone booted up the Universe with a specific intent and foreknowledge that we'd evolve, there's really no ultimate purpose to life at all. We're here, that's it. What we do with this opportunity is up to us.

[basho]

does a super intelligence born out of me count as my child?

Only if it unexpectedly explodes out of your chest in a particularly bloody way during dinner

But seriously, I imagine we will need to expand the definition to cover more than just the relationship between a set of traditional biological animals. Bringing a conscious, feeling entity into existence should impose certain responsibilities on the creator/parent for its initial care, development and wellbeing.

[sorellasotero]

For me it's too late - I'm 54 with 4 grown children. Yes, I gave birth 4 times in six years on purpose. I had been infertile, and had surgery, which apparently worked and my husband at the time wanted a big family and I wanted to go along and please him. As an only child I had no firm opinion on what the ideal family size was or knowledge of what life was like in a household with siblings. Besides, we were Mormon at the time. I had a vision of what my fourth would look like as a toddler before he was born, and that vision came true (a little Mormon doctrine reference here).

Then my husband left us, and we went through 4 years of divorce and divorce-related litigation, and many more years than that of poverty and hardship. There was a custody battle that the kids won for me. There were - and are - lengthy, white knuckle commutes, financial ups and downs and perils of every sort. My youngest did something stupid and had to beat a felony rap with two years of probation, but his record is now sealed and he is set to graduate this spring in mechanical engineering. My middle son had a speech impediment and was slow to learn to read - but they worked with him in school and one year he just 'kindled' and became a voracious reader - and just graduated last spring from a renowned program in EHS. I could have died giving birth to him - the placenta didn't detach. My oldest son developed life-threatening allergies, which are now under control, and dropped out of his first college to join the Army in the spring of 2000. To get an interesting line of work he had to sign up for four years ... and nearly died several times in both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. He's back now, almost engaged, and working in the defense industry as well as going back to school - this time, computer science. It took him a long time to heal - people don't come home normal from wars. My daughter almost dropped out of high school and got pregnant, but was rescued by a devout friend who introduced her to a Lutheran business college in a small town in Kansas. She did great, had a lot of fun, and her career is doing well, and she is also almost engaged.

Once not too long ago, my youngest son asked me, "Mom, if you had to do it all over again, would you still have us?" And I had trouble finding words to tell him how glad I was that he was alive.

Not every childbearing story turns out well. A lady I work with is coming to terms with the realization that her grown son is a sociopath who has flim-flammed several family members out of tens of thousands of dollars - each - and nearly burned her house down when he torched his car in her garage for the insurance.

So, I would say that those who say it's way too much work and likely to end badly are right, and those who say it's a wonderful miraculous experience are also right. And as for having more than one or two, the Mormons had a joke about that, that having one baby completely changes your life, eats up all your money, ruins your sleep, takes up all your time and energy, messes up your house and drives you crazy. So, they say, once you have one you may as well keep going.

For me the key thing was to live long enough to see that I hadn't just had babies or children, but that I had caused the existance of new people. Now that they are grown, that is what takes my breath away. Today I attended the funeral of a friend of mine, who died at 57 of lung cancer (no, she never smoked). To see and hear from all the people that loved her, all the things she did, all the stories, compounded the tragedy of mortality for me. Hers is the first funeral that has ever caused tears, not even my grandmother's got me crying. I have had two friends die young in the last 7 years and they were both people who were a blessing to the world and our society. And I know rat bastards who are living on. Is human life worth immortality, is human life worth it even without immortality? Those are hard questions for me, especially today.

Mormons are dyed-in-the-wool natalists, and also great believers in building, planting, and organizing things. To them, the privilege of reaching the highest heaven means that you get to go on doing the same things that gave your life on earth meaning, joy and purpose, only on a much, much grander scale - forever. It was the first description of an eternal life I encountered that any appeal for me. (I'm not Mormon any more, btw)

Edited by sorellasotero, 30 December 2007 - 11:15 AM.

[Karomesis]

I already have 2 spawn.


while that's it for me, I appreciate the grounding they gave me. without which I'd be a far more extreme person, and I DEFINITELY don't need to be more extreme.


I didn't "choose" to have children, they are a direct result of my stratospheric sex drive, and a remnant of my previous impulsive behavoir. (that is now corrected)

Edited by karomesis, 30 December 2007 - 04:03 AM.

[cyborgdreamer]

There seems to be a trend where scientifically minded immortalists aren't having many children while ultra-religious people "go forth and multiply". To the extent that certain mindsets are genetic, this makes me worry about the future of human evolution. What if human rationality goes the way of the dodo?

[mike250]

There seems to be a trend where scientifically minded immortalists aren't having many children while ultra-religious people "go forth and multiply". To the extent that certain mindsets are genetic, this makes me worry about the future of human evolution. What if human rationality goes the way of the dodo?

well we can always go forth and multiply

Edited by mike250, 01 January 2008 - 07:19 AM.

[DJS]

There seems to be a trend where scientifically minded immortalists aren't having many children while ultra-religious people "go forth and multiply". To the extent that certain mindsets are genetic, this makes me worry about the future of human evolution. What if human rationality goes the way of the dodo?

It seems to me that this kind of concern is unwarranted, considering that there has been a clear upswing in "rationality" over the past few hundred years. Although a major influence on an individual's psychology, the family structure is still only one influence among many (friends, school, work, the internet, etc). Indeed, it does appear that irrationality continue to dominate, but I can't foresee an "Idiocracy" scenario as it represents an overly simplistic view of cultural evolution and the sorts of memetic transmission that make it possible.

[Shannon Vyff]

Sorellasotero -- thank you for sharing, I love learning from other people's experiences.

Probably people were expecting me to post in this thread

I have 3 children and am going to be having more. I started when I was 21 for many reasons.

1. I'd volunteered in nursing homes since I was aged 6 or so. I'd take my dog when I was little, and continue to do visit people now that I have children, I take my children along. I was horrified with the aging process when I was a child, watching people at the end of their life--I knew some day it would happen to me, that there was nothing I could do. Since I've grown I of course have learned otherwise, and teach my own children such. (am a cryonicist, practice Calorie Restriction, exercise, continue my education, support M Prize--along with other things ) When I was a child I also had witnessed some elderly people living in their grown children's homes, and this to me seemed preferable. At 21 I had the idea that if I had children, I'd have help in my older age. I have since learned that adult children in their 40'- and 50's help their aging parents in a myriad of ways. So there was selfish reason # 1.

2. I wanted to raise my children to be extraordinarily smart. I had been identified as having a high IQ as a child, and was always interested in what made children super smart, smarter than many adults. I studied these methods before I had my first child at 21. I figured that if I raised my children well they may become successful in society or benefit society in a way that would benefit me someday, or that I would be proud of. I have never been bored with my children, I teach them to read and write when they are still 2 years old, I teach as much as I can--even now that they are 6, 8 and 11. I take them to documentaries, give them travel, discuss world events daily, let them meet and listen to intelligent and fascinating people. So, that is my selfish reason number 2... be better at parenting than others (not know if this is possible really! I certainly have made many many mistakes along the way--but I'm fiercely proud of them and love them).

3. I had more that one, in case one died. I currently want 6, because I had 3 with my first husband and now want 3 with my new husband --mainly for the previous reasons but also to see how the new bio dad genes mix-up So yeah, I love them in the baby stage, and while the breastfeed till they are several years old--and love watching them develop into interesting kids, and can't wait to see how they do in life. Now, since I had the money to have children when I was 21, and still do--and love raising children, I have entertained the idea of adopting. I'm a god parent to two children, that if anything happens to their adoptive parents--I'd be the legal guardian. Since I love raising children, I may choose to adopt them when I'm older--I like the idea of raising more kids with having the option to be set up for cryonics if they want, and generally teaching them about world religions, science, and our millions of possibilities for the future--and how they can make a place for themselves in it. Will I benefit some day, from a child that I raised--perhaps? Selfish reason 3...

4. Studies I've read in the past (and not taking the time to look up right now, but with the wording I give-probably could be found if you want) People are happier with children. Men that have more than 4 children live longer (that one looked at men only--but I've seen ones that say women have brain growth after having children, they certainly are challenging ) Having children keeps me from being a hypocrite with my healthy living--of body and mind. I got a certificate in holistic nutrition, because of them--I do more that I would normally do--for them, they keep me from being lazy . Yes I want to model an exemplary life, but I also wrote them a book "21st Century Kids" and have started another, with a new angle of how to teach regular children with no idea about Transhumanist themes, all the causes I hold dear--in a more 'now' way, with a minimum of sci-fi... So my children, and wanting to make the world a better place for them, keep me going--but also increase my empathy with other humans.

5. I have always wanted to pass on my genes. I've picked men I was attracted to --so I would have good looking kids, I think being 'good looking' has benefited me, and has a lot of benefits in society--so I wanted to give that advantage to my children. (selfish reason 5--but I love my god children for all the reasons 1-4, and would have adopted if I could not have had biological children due to the 24 abdominal surgeries I had as a child)

6. Due to those abdominal surgeries I live with chronic pain, nerve damage where my small intestine was re-attached to my large intestine. Loving in general gives me something beyond my body, my husband, my children--their needs, override my own fatigue and pain at times. I may appreciate this if I did not have the chronic pain, because I love loving, and I think we all deal with many problems being human anyway (Like fatigue, having to sleep--etc., limitations even when we exercise, eat healthy etc.) So, yes even though I had my children to possibly benefit me in my old age, I also had them to love. Selfish reason 6...

Parenting is hard, Parenting is euphoria--I don't recommend it for everyone--and I really wish only people who wanted children, and took it as one of the most serious undertakings of their life--would do it. I studied early childhood education in college, and the education of gifted and talented--in preparation for having my own, and have continued reading books, taking classes and listening to what experts have to say on the subject --ever since, including wonderful parents such as Sorellasotero

Oh and you don't have to have millions to have children, you can be a great parent by giving your time and your love. When you have a partner, you also can share that time spent, you do not have to do it all--but if you are single you can use the support of a community such as a church (I teach at a Unitarian Universalist church, that is where I met the parents who adopted babies when they were 57, and the other at age 60-- if something happens to them, I will raise the children they've adopted, but they are wonderful parents--in good health with many resources and time to give) There are all sorts of ways that community helps with raising children though, including various school districts--public and private. In the early years, I think there is more of a burden of time on the woman, but of course this is not true in all families--including gay dads that adopt . I strongly believe that the more time you invest when they are young, will pay off and make parenting easier when they get older--but of course mine are not yet teens, so I'll have to get back to you all on that one.

[missminni]

Sorellasotero -- thank you for sharing, I love learning from other people's experiences.

Probably people were expecting me to post in this thread

I have 3 children and am going to be having more. I started when I was 21 for many reasons.

1. I'd volunteered in nursing homes since I was aged 6 or so. I'd take my dog when I was little, and continue to do visit people now that I have children, I take my children along. I was horrified with the aging process when I was a child, watching people at the end of their life--I knew some day it would happen to me, that there was nothing I could do. Since I've grown I of course have learned otherwise, and teach my own children such. (am a cryonicist, practice Calorie Restriction, exercise, continue my education, support M Prize--along with other things ) When I was a child I also had witnessed some elderly people living in their grown children's homes, and this to me seemed preferable. At 21 I had the idea that if I had children, I'd have help in my older age. I have since learned that adult children in their 40'- and 50's help their aging parents in a myriad of ways. So there was selfish reason # 1.

2. I wanted to raise my children to be extraordinarily smart. I had been identified as having a high IQ as a child, and was always interested in what made children super smart, smarter than many adults. I studied these methods before I had my first child at 21. I figured that if I raised my children well they may become successful in society or benefit society in a way that would benefit me someday, or that I would be proud of. I have never been bored with my children, I teach them to read and write when they are still 2 years old, I teach as much as I can--even now that they are 6, 8 and 11. I take them to documentaries, give them travel, discuss world events daily, let them meet and listen to intelligent and fascinating people. So, that is my selfish reason number 2... be better at parenting than others (not know if this is possible really! I certainly have made many many mistakes along the way--but I'm fiercely proud of them and love them).

3. I had more that one, in case one died. I currently want 6, because I had 3 with my first husband and now want 3 with my new husband --mainly for the previous reasons but also to see how the new bio dad genes mix-up So yeah, I love them in the baby stage, and while the breastfeed till they are several years old--and love watching them develop into interesting kids, and can't wait to see how they do in life. Now, since I had the money to have children when I was 21, and still do--and love raising children, I have entertained the idea of adopting. I'm a god parent to two children, that if anything happens to their adoptive parents--I'd be the legal guardian. Since I love raising children, I may choose to adopt them when I'm older--I like the idea of raising more kids with having the option to be set up for cryonics if they want, and generally teaching them about world religions, science, and our millions of possibilities for the future--and how they can make a place for themselves in it. Will I benefit some day, from a child that I raised--perhaps? Selfish reason 3...

4. Studies I've read in the past (and not taking the time to look up right now, but with the wording I give-probably could be found if you want) People are happier with children. Men that have more than 4 children live longer (that one looked at men only--but I've seen ones that say women have brain growth after having children, they certainly are challenging ) Having children keeps me from being a hypocrite with my healthy living--of body and mind. I got a certificate in holistic nutrition, because of them--I do more that I would normally do--for them, they keep me from being lazy . Yes I want to model an exemplary life, but I also wrote them a book "21st Century Kids" and have started another, with a new angle of how to teach regular children with no idea about Transhumanist themes, all the causes I hold dear--in a more 'now' way, with a minimum of sci-fi... So my children, and wanting to make the world a better place for them, keep me going--but also increase my empathy with other humans.

5. I have always wanted to pass on my genes. I've picked men I was attracted to --so I would have good looking kids, I think being 'good looking' has benefited me, and has a lot of benefits in society--so I wanted to give that advantage to my children. (selfish reason 5--but I love my god children for all the reasons 1-4, and would have adopted if I could not have had biological children due to the 24 abdominal surgeries I had as a child)

6. Due to those abdominal surgeries I live with chronic pain, nerve damage where my small intestine was re-attached to my large intestine. Loving in general gives me something beyond my body, my husband, my children--their needs, override my own fatigue and pain at times. I may appreciate this if I did not have the chronic pain, because I love loving, and I think we all deal with many problems being human anyway (Like fatigue, having to sleep--etc., limitations even when we exercise, eat healthy etc.) So, yes even though I had my children to possibly benefit me in my old age, I also had them to love. Selfish reason 6...

Parenting is hard, Parenting is euphoria--I don't recommend it for everyone--and I really wish only people who wanted children, and took it as one of the most serious undertakings of their life--would do it. I studied early childhood education in college, and the education of gifted and talented--in preparation for having my own, and have continued reading books, taking classes and listening to what experts have to say on the subject --ever since, including wonderful parents such as Sorellasotero

Oh and you don't have to have millions to have children, you can be a great parent by giving your time and your love. When you have a partner, you also can share that time spent, you do not have to do it all--but if you are single you can use the support of a community such as a church (I teach at a Unitarian Universalist church, that is where I met the parents who adopted babies when they were 57, and the other at age 60-- if something happens to them, I will raise the children they've adopted, but they are wonderful parents--in good health with many resources and time to give) There are all sorts of ways that community helps with raising children though, including various school districts--public and private. In the early years, I think there is more of a burden of time on the woman, but of course this is not true in all families--including gay dads that adopt . I strongly believe that the more time you invest when they are young, will pay off and make parenting easier when they get older--but of course mine are not yet teens, so I'll have to get back to you all on that one.

How refreshing. I applaud you. Hope you get through the teens without too much trouble. Girls at 14...not easy.

[maxwatt]

...but I've seen ones [studies] that say women have brain growth after having children, they certainly are challenging

I believe every vertebrate that engages in child rearing, that has been studied, shows brain-growth on having children. There are hormonal changes, that go beyond a response to challenging circumstances.

Having two children, I can say also that it connects you to the next generation, as well as to your peers who are also engaged in child-rearing.

[StrangeAeons]

having kids is something I want to do when I'm financially secure and have found somebody I truly love, so it's largely contingent upon that. I can't rationally justify the desire, I suppose, but I would like to bring something into the world that I feel could contribute. High intelligence and neuroses both run in my family, and if I can't get the better of the latter to take advantage of the former myself (which I will, it's just taking some time right now) I know I can at least raise a child with mitigation of the latter and enhancement of the former.

[jonano]

well father vs. women

some father are fighting for their children, and mothers dont give them.

personally I dont want kids, I am more concerned about earning money, that's my job, the job of women is to raise children. that's why there are 2, one bring money in the family, one to raise the children to learn them to do the same, if it's a boy, the mother learn him to earn money, if it's girl, the mother learn her to raise children. that's why there are 2 parents, to be effective.

personally I will get a copy, or many if possible of my brain instead to have children, if I succeed to live long enough.

--Jon

[sorellasotero]

What I noticed after motherhood: lighter sleeping, more acute hearing, more anxiety. After pregnancy my comfort/balance going down stairs was shakey.

[cyborgdreamer]

personally I dont want kids, I am more concerned about earning money, that's my job, the job of women is to raise children. that's why there are 2, one bring money in the family, one to raise the children to learn them to do the same, if it's a boy, the mother learn him to earn money, if it's girl, the mother learn her to raise children. that's why there are 2 parents, to be effective.

You have every right to focus on earning money if you want to but you don't have to bring gender into it. Plenty of women have sucessful careers and plenty of men would rather be stay at home dads. Other people raise children and develop their careers (and some do neither). Gender roles are pointless restrictions that only serve to limit personal freedom and individuality.

[health_nutty]

Too late to choose, I already have two

[maestro949]

I chose Definitely Not but when significant life extension emerges (1000+ years) I may change my mind. I'd rather spend my time working towards buying more time.

One idea that has merit is to have children and raise them as prodigies highly specialized in microbiology and computational theory. This is probably not a good enough reason to have children but then neither is "because it's natural and what we're biologically programmed to do so."

[platypus]

The longer you intend to live the more sense it makes to have kids. With a mere 20-year time-investment you can seed your own "tribe" that will surely be helpful in the coming centuries.