579 replies to this topic

[wing767]

Eva, thank you for your answers, much appreciate your opinion. Eva, i am tempted to use Azelaic Acid, shall i introduce it with the night retinol regime or will it be too harsh for the skin? I also want to ask you, what do you think about the dermo roller using at home? Does it worth trying?

[mustardseed41]

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks. All the info you'll ever need is at owndocdotcom

[sthira]

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks.

It's your skin, of course, but please do be very careful about deliberately puncturing your face with hundreds (thousands?) of tiny wounds. This creates inflammation and tiny scars. Scarred tissue may appear differently than unscarred tissue. And those tiny, real wounds are also each open to infection.

[GhostBuster]

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks.

It's your skin, of course, but please do be very careful about deliberately puncturing your face with hundreds (thousands?) of tiny wounds. This creates inflammation and tiny scars. Scarred tissue may appear differently than unscarred tissue. And those tiny, real wounds are also each open to infection.

I don't think that the (micro)inflammation will be a problem, but I am more concerned of tiny pieces of metal from the spikes that are left in the skin after dermarolling.

[mustardseed41]

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks.

It's your skin, of course, but please do be very careful about deliberately puncturing your face with hundreds (thousands?) of tiny wounds. This creates inflammation and tiny scars. Scarred tissue may appear differently than unscarred tissue. And those tiny, real wounds are also each open to infection.

I suggest you do more research. Perfectly safe and effective if done correctly.

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks.

It's your skin, of course, but please do be very careful about deliberately puncturing your face with hundreds (thousands?) of tiny wounds. This creates inflammation and tiny scars. Scarred tissue may appear differently than unscarred tissue. And those tiny, real wounds are also each open to infection.

I don't think that the (micro)inflammation will be a problem, but I am more concerned of tiny pieces of metal from the spikes that are left in the skin after dermarolling.

Wow I've never once heard of metal spikes left in the skin. And I've read a ton on the subject.

[GhostBuster]

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks.

It's your skin, of course, but please do be very careful about deliberately puncturing your face with hundreds (thousands?) of tiny wounds. This creates inflammation and tiny scars. Scarred tissue may appear differently than unscarred tissue. And those tiny, real wounds are also each open to infection.

I suggest you do more research. Perfectly safe and effective if done correctly.

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks.

It's your skin, of course, but please do be very careful about deliberately puncturing your face with hundreds (thousands?) of tiny wounds. This creates inflammation and tiny scars. Scarred tissue may appear differently than unscarred tissue. And those tiny, real wounds are also each open to infection.

I don't think that the (micro)inflammation will be a problem, but I am more concerned of tiny pieces of metal from the spikes that are left in the skin after dermarolling.

Wow I've never once heard of metal spikes left in the skin. And I've read a ton on the subject.

I red about when I was studying dermarolling, it was a study in pubmed (?)maybe, but I don't have a reference for it now. But it is kind of logical when you think about it. The metal has to go somewhere when the spikes lose their sharpness. And when you dermaroll, you have to buy a new device quite often.

[mustardseed41]

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks.

It's your skin, of course, but please do be very careful about deliberately puncturing your face with hundreds (thousands?) of tiny wounds. This creates inflammation and tiny scars. Scarred tissue may appear differently than unscarred tissue. And those tiny, real wounds are also each open to infection.

I suggest you do more research. Perfectly safe and effective if done correctly.

I've been using a derma roller for over a year now. It is a fantastic tool if used properly. I mainly use the 1.0 and 1.5mm sizes done once every 4-7 weeks.

It's your skin, of course, but please do be very careful about deliberately puncturing your face with hundreds (thousands?) of tiny wounds. This creates inflammation and tiny scars. Scarred tissue may appear differently than unscarred tissue. And those tiny, real wounds are also each open to infection.

I don't think that the (micro)inflammation will be a problem, but I am more concerned of tiny pieces of metal from the spikes that are left in the skin after dermarolling.

Wow I've never once heard of metal spikes left in the skin. And I've read a ton on the subject.

I red about when I was studying dermarolling, it was a study in pubmed (?)maybe, but I don't have a reference for it now. But it is kind of logical when you think about it. The metal has to go somewhere when the spikes lose their sharpness. And when you dermaroll, you have to buy a new device quite often.

No it's not logical when I think about it. Sure it's possible, but it's also possible that asprin can kill you. Highly likely that won't happen.

[sthira]

Microbes are more risky than metal pieces from the spikes. This blasé attitude to microbes many people have comes from the comfort that sulfas and antibiotics have given us since their invention. But antibiotics can't stop all microbes so be careful about taking care of our defense mechanisms -- the skin is one of the most important defenses we have.

Have you seen what infection can do? The idea that you need to repeatedly wound the skin barrier to make it appear younger seems like a bad idea. But good luck! Post your before & after pictures if you take this risk.

[Eva Victoria]

Azelaic Acid is an AHA and it should not be mixed directly with Tretinoin. It is going to be far too harsh for your skin.
If you absolutely want to use it then get acclimatized to Tretinoin first (3-6 months) and then incorporate Azelaic Acid in the morning.

I forgot about the derma roller. It enhances the effect of (externally applied) skin care products by transporting the product deeper in the skin. One should, however, ask oneself whether it is a good thing since it also enhances the delivery of all the other (functional) ingredients.

Eva, thank you for your answers, much appreciate your opinion. Eva, i am tempted to use Azelaic Acid, shall i introduce it with the night retinol regime or will it be too harsh for the skin? I also want to ask you, what do you think about the dermo roller using at home? Does it worth trying?

Edited by Eva Victoria, 28 November 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[wing767]

Azelaic Acid is an AHA and it should not be mixed directly with Tretinoin. It is going to be far too harsh for your skin.
If you absolutely want to use it then get acclimatized to Tretinoin first (3-6 months) and then incorporate Azelaic Acid in the morning.

I forgot about the derma roller. It enhances the effect of (externally applied) skin care products by transporting the product deeper in the skin. One should, however, ask oneself whether it is a good thing since it also enhances the delivery of all the other (functional) ingredients.

Eva, thank you for your answers, much appreciate your opinion. Eva, i am tempted to use Azelaic Acid, shall i introduce it with the night retinol regime or will it be too harsh for the skin? I also want to ask you, what do you think about the dermo roller using at home? Does it worth trying?

Thank you for all the answers. Dermaroller with be put on hold . I have ordered on line and tried Kanebo Allie: Moisture Gel SPF 50+ PPD +++ 2012 . It's really invisible and very nice on the skin as a simple moisturiser, much more thiner than Obaji Nu Derm (Nu derm is also nice ). Thank you for advising it.

[JBForrester]

Eva, what do you think of the following sunscreens:

Neova DNA Damage Control
http://www.neova.com...2&productid=210

Elta MD Skincare, EV Physical SPF 41
http://www.eltamd.co...detail.aspx?p=9

These were two sunscreens that were recommended for me, and I wonder if they have much protection? Thank you!

[JeremyPJme]

Hi Eva,

As you understand more than a lot of dermatologist out there, it is not a surprise that I trust more in your opinion than my doctor's (she wouldn't even bother to know what is in a product before stating that is good).

So, do you think SkinCeuticals in general is a reliabe brand?

And in specific their 'Physical Fusion UV Defense SPF50'.

(It's tinted and according to them: PPD=21). Taken from their website:

Key Ingredients
1: Translucent color spheres: Provide universal tint for all skin tones and repel oil to minimize sebum appearance.
2: Zinc oxide (Z-Cote®*): Microfine zinc oxide provides broad spectrum protection against burning UVB as well as aging UVA rays without leaving white residue.
3: Titanium dioxide: Microfine titanium dioxide forms a protective barrier over the skin to protect against UVB and short UVA rays.
4: Artermia salina: Boosts skin’s defense and resistance to UV and heat stress while protecting

*Z-COTE HP-1 is a Registered Trademark of BASFcollagen from UV damage, based on in-vitro testing.

Active Ingredients: Titanium Dioxide 6%, Zinc Oxide 4.9%.

Other Ingredients: Water, Dimethicone, Isododecane, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Undecane, Triethylhexanoin, Isohexadecane, Nylon-12, Caprylyl Methicone, Butyloctyl Salicylate, Phenethyl Benzoate, Styrene/Acrylates Copolymer, Silica, Tridecane, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Dicaprylyl Ether, Talc, Dimethicone/Peg-10/15 Crosspolymer, Aluminum Stearate, Pentylene Glycol, Peg-9 Polydimethylsiloxyethyl Dimethicone, Alumina, Polyhydroxystearic Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Magnesium Sulfate, Caprylyl Glycol, Iron Oxides, Peg-8 Laurate, Disteardimonium Hectorite, Triethoxycaprylylsilane, Tocopherol, Propylene Carbonate, Artemia Extract, Benzoic Acid, C9-15 Fluoroa.

What do you think of it? And if you don't like, could you recommend us some physical sunscreens that don't leave a lot of white cast and have high UVA protection?

ps.: I tried to highlight the main aspects since the post is big and not abuse you so much, thank you for your time Eva!

Edited by JeremyPJme, 10 December 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

Hi JB Forrester,

Neova DNA Damage Control
Active Ingredients: Octinoxate 6.5%, Octisalate 2.5%, Zinc Oxide 8.5%.

Inactive Ingredients: Allantoin, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Butylene Glycol, Cetearyl Glucoside, Citric Acid, Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone, Ergothioneine, Ethyl Hexyl Isononanoate, Glycereth-26, Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyldimethyl Taurate Copolymer, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Isopropyl Palmitate, Lecithin, Micrococcus Lysate, Octyl Stearate, Oleth-3 Phosphate, Panthenol, PEG-7 Trimethylolpropane Coconut Ether, Phenoxyethanol, Plankton Extract, Polyether-1, Polyisobutene, Purified Water, Retinyl Palmitate, Sodium Hyaluronate, Sodium Hydroxide, Tocopheryl Acetate, Triethoxycaprylylsilane.

It has enough ZnO (at least for winter/early spring), but I do not like Ascorbyl Palmitate. The ingredients are listed alphabetically because sunscreens are classified as OTC drugs and can declare the ingredients in this way. (While cosmetics have to have it according to amount.) This makes it extremely difficult to guess how this sunscreen is. I see a Seppic polymer (Sepiplus S) that can be used in O/W and W/O compositions. (This does not help either). However, I am 99% sure that this is an O/W creme. This polymer gives a very pleasant skin-feel to finished products. (Sometimes have a tacky, stingy feel). It does uses some excellent anti-oxidants: Ergothioneine (Barnet/AGI Derm.), Micrococcus Lysate (Barnet/AGI Derm.) and Plankton Extract (ISP/Ashland). All of these have documented effects of protection (Plankton Extract, Ergothioneine) or repair of DNA damage (Micrococcus Lysate).

"Transparent zinc, a highly effective physical sunscreen, defends against broad-spectrum UVA/UVB exposure. Octinoxate and octisalate filter UVB rays." Mostlikely they use Zinc Clear from Dow. It does not have full UVA protection (hence the invisibility on the skin and high SPF (UVB protecting) values.

Minus for lack of other anti-oxidants (like vitamin C in stabilized form -Ascorbyl Glucoside or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate).

Elta MD Skincare, EV Physical SPF 41
Active Ingredients: 9.0% Zinc Oxide, 7.0% Titanium Dioxide

Inactive Ingredients: Aluminum Hydroxide, Butylene Glycol, Citric Acid, Dimethicone/Methicone Copolymer, Hydrated Silica, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Iron Oxide, Isopropyl Palmitate, Lecithin, Linoleic Acid, Octyldodecyl Neopentanoate, Octyl Stearate, Oleth-3 Phosphate, Perfluorononyl Dimethicone, Phenoxyethanol, Polyacrylate 13/Polyisobutene/Polysorbate 20, Purified Water, Quercetin, Sodium Hydroxide, Thioctic Acid (Alpha Lipoic Acid), Triethoxycaprylylsilane.

The ingredients are listed alphabetically here as well.
It contains higher amount of ZnO and uses TiO2 as UVB filter. Another Seppic polymer is used (Sepiplus 400) which gives highly stable emulsions (O/W) even in the presence of electrolytes (as in sunscreen). Almost certain they use Z-Cote (BASF) that also have higher/better UVA protecting values than that of Zinc Clear. Has documented SPF-boosting ingredient (Octyldodecyl Neopentanoate). Very good multifunctional antioxidant: Quercetin.
Minus for Aluminum Hydroxide (SPF booster), and for lack of other anti-oxidants.

Conclusion: I think both will do a good job in the winter/early spring although I would go for Neova DNA Damage Control because it has better (and several) anti-oxidants. The polymer used can give a cushiony, more moisturizing, long-lasting-comfort-feeling on skin. This can be very pleasant in colder winter climates.

Eva, what do you think of the following sunscreens:

Neova DNA Damage Control
http://www.neova.com...2&productid=210

Elta MD Skincare, EV Physical SPF 41
http://www.eltamd.co...detail.aspx?p=9

These were two sunscreens that were recommended for me, and I wonder if they have much protection? Thank you!

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Jeremy,

Thank you for your consideration and for your kind words! Although I am sure your derm. knows more about skin than I do!

I do not know much about Skinceuticals except that it belongs to L'Oreal. And as part of a big concern it is inevitable that all products are developed under strict budget. This is no good new for consumers though. (Private labels where increase of production costs $ 0.1-1(and higher) per item will have no impact, it is tremendously important for big companies to keep cost at the necessary minimum).

But I would say that Skinceuticals is a reliable brand since it is sold through dermatologists.

The Physical Fusion UV Defense SPF50 comes in a tinted version and a non-tinted version. L'Oreal uses the same technology for the emulsion as in La Roche-Posay Anthelios sunscreen fluids with Mexoryl, both in the US and in the EU). They even have the exact same formula under LRP Mineral Sunscreen SPF 50 (11%TiO2, marketed in the US with the exact same claims as Skinceuticals).

I think it is an elegant and affordable sunscreen which is mild and even sensitive skin can use it. (This is also valid for LRP Mineral Sunscreen SPF 50.) The only thing I do not like about this sunscreen is that it could have an even more elegant finish with a tiny bit of silicone elastomer added to the formulation (but again costs, would have risen about $ 0.01 per item).
It has one antioxidant, beside Vit. E: Artemia Extract, which is an excellent highly researched active with almost "miraculous" effects. But again, a blend of several antioxidants would do a better job than one alone ever can. It has an excellent UVB and UVA protection enhancer (Styrene/Acrylates Copolymer) also.

I do have two favorite sunscreens that I can warmly recommend (especially for the winter/early spring). One is MAC: Studio Moisture Fix SPF 15 (6.7% ZnO and 3.5% OMC). It has a balanced UVB/UVA protection. (The ZnO they use is from Grant Industries and has a reliable UVA protection-profile). It is invisible on the skin. Is packed with modern anti-oxidants (among others: Thermus Thermophillus Ferment, and it also has stabilized vitamin C -MAP) in a very elegant base that dries to a silky finish on the skin. Affordable and available in the US. Minus for fragrance though. (It is a bit too masculine fragrance as well). Price: $ 31, 1.7 OZ/50 ml.

Active: Zinc Oxide 6.7%, Octinoxate 3.5%, Other: Water, Dimethicone, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Butylene Glycol, Silica, Isononyl Isononanoate, Glycerin, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cholesterol, Astrocaryum Murumuru Butter, Caffeine, Sodium RNA, Sodium Hyaluronate, Phytosphingosine, Barley Extract, Chinese Mushroom Extract, Thermus Thermophillus Ferment, Polygonum Cuspidatum Root (Chinese Root) Extract/Saccharomyces Lysate Extract, Yeast Extract, Wheat Germ Extract, Sucrose, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Polysorbate 20, Polysorbate 80, Squalane, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Steareth-21, PVP, Sodium Citrate, Citric Acid, Disteardimonium Hectorite, Cetyl Esters, Hexylene Glycol, Polyethylene, Polyhydroxystearic Acid, Acrylamide/Sodium Acryloyldimethyltaurate Copolymer, Ammonium Acryloyldimethyltaurate/VP Copolymer, Isohexadecane, Caprylyl Glycol, Triethoxycaprylylsilane, Linoleic Acid, Disodium EDTA, Propylene Glycol Dicaprate, Fragrance, BHT, Phenoxyethanol, Chlorphenesin

My other old-time favourite is La Mer The SPF 30 Fluid with 10% ZnO and 7.5% OMC in an extremely elegant very fluid Japanese type sunscreen fluid.

It has some good anti-oxidants (though the amount should be higher). It should be applied after a regular moisturizer where it will dry to a silky smooth finish. More like a skin-perfecting veil. completely invisible. It has an excellent UVB and UVA protection enhancer (Styrene/Acrylates Copolymer and Octyldodecyl Neopentanoate, along with all the silicone elastomers) also.
Minus for the high price and fragrance though. (Sells for $ 70, 1 OZ/30 ml).

Active Ingredients: Zinc Oxide 10% Octinoxate 7.50%
Water/Aqua/Eau, Cyclopentasiloxane, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Phenyl Trimethicone, Methyl Trimethicone, Octyldodecyl Neopentanoate, Vinyl Dimethicone/Methicone Silsesquioxane Crosspolymer, Butylene Glycol, Methyl Methylacrylate Crosspolymer, Glycerin, Dimethicone, Chondrus Crispus (Carrageenan) Extract, Laminaria Ochroleuca Extract, Magnesium Sulfate, Crithmum Maritimum Extract, Pantethine, Yeast Extract/Faex/Extrait de Levure, Malachite, Cetyl PEG/PPG-10/15 Dimethicone, Ethylhexylglycerin, Lauryl PEG-9 Polydimethylsiloxyethyl Dimethicone, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Polysilicone-11, Dimethicone/Vinyl Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Dipentaerythrityl Tri-Polyhydroxystearate, Tourmaline, Dimethicone/PEG-10/15 Crosspolymer, Tocopheryl Acetate, Caprylyl Glycol, Quaternium-18 Bentonite, Styrene/Acrylates Copolymer, PEG-8 Laurate, Propylene Carbonate, Isostearic Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Geraniol, Hydroxycitronellal, Limonene, Linalool, Citronellol, Sorbic Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Green 5 (CI 61570)

Hope it could be of any help!

Hi Eva,

As you understand more than a lot of dermatologist out there, it is not a surprise that I trust more in your opinion than my doctor's (she wouldn't even bother to know what is in a product before stating that is good).

So, do you think SkinCeuticals in general is a reliabe brand?

And in specific their 'Physical Fusion UV Defense SPF50'.

(It's tinted and according to them: PPD=21). Taken from their website:

Key Ingredients
1: Translucent color spheres: Provide universal tint for all skin tones and repel oil to minimize sebum appearance.
2: Zinc oxide (Z-Cote®*): Microfine zinc oxide provides broad spectrum protection against burning UVB as well as aging UVA rays without leaving white residue.
3: Titanium dioxide: Microfine titanium dioxide forms a protective barrier over the skin to protect against UVB and short UVA rays.
4: Artermia salina: Boosts skin’s defense and resistance to UV and heat stress while protecting

*Z-COTE HP-1 is a Registered Trademark of BASFcollagen from UV damage, based on in-vitro testing.

Active Ingredients: Titanium Dioxide 6%, Zinc Oxide 4.9%.

Other Ingredients: Water, Dimethicone, Isododecane, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Undecane, Triethylhexanoin, Isohexadecane, Nylon-12, Caprylyl Methicone, Butyloctyl Salicylate, Phenethyl Benzoate, Styrene/Acrylates Copolymer, Silica, Tridecane, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Dicaprylyl Ether, Talc, Dimethicone/Peg-10/15 Crosspolymer, Aluminum Stearate, Pentylene Glycol, Peg-9 Polydimethylsiloxyethyl Dimethicone, Alumina, Polyhydroxystearic Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Magnesium Sulfate, Caprylyl Glycol, Iron Oxides, Peg-8 Laurate, Disteardimonium Hectorite, Triethoxycaprylylsilane, Tocopherol, Propylene Carbonate, Artemia Extract, Benzoic Acid, C9-15 Fluoroa.

What do you think of it? And if you don't like, could you recommend us some physical sunscreens that don't leave a lot of white cast and have high UVA protection?

ps.: I tried to highlight the main aspects since the post is big and not abuse you so much, thank you for your time Eva!

[JeremyPJme]

...See why I trust your opinion?

It's funny how some people arrive here with almost some kind of desperation. Marketing induces you to think that the higher SPF, the better the product is, and that's what only matters in a sunscreen. They make low SPF sound like you aren't getting enough protection.
Scientists must live under pressure to balance the ideal formula from a dermatologist perspective and from the marketing perspective, both pressured by the company.

Sometimes it is difficult for the ones that don't know much about skin to find proper skin care products. And you're helping a lot with that, Eva.

Thank you for the answer!

[JBForrester]

Thank you very much, Eva! Really interesting information. Neova it is.

One last question, considering these are good for winter/early spring, do you have any specific sunscreens you'd recommend for the summer? If only I'd find you before I had went to Australia last year lol! Thanks again.

- JB

Hi JB Forrester,

Neova DNA Damage Control
Active Ingredients: Octinoxate 6.5%, Octisalate 2.5%, Zinc Oxide 8.5%.

Inactive Ingredients: Allantoin, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Butylene Glycol, Cetearyl Glucoside, Citric Acid, Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone, Ergothioneine, Ethyl Hexyl Isononanoate, Glycereth-26, Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyldimethyl Taurate Copolymer, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Isopropyl Palmitate, Lecithin, Micrococcus Lysate, Octyl Stearate, Oleth-3 Phosphate, Panthenol, PEG-7 Trimethylolpropane Coconut Ether, Phenoxyethanol, Plankton Extract, Polyether-1, Polyisobutene, Purified Water, Retinyl Palmitate, Sodium Hyaluronate, Sodium Hydroxide, Tocopheryl Acetate, Triethoxycaprylylsilane.

It has enough ZnO (at least for winter/early spring), but I do not like Ascorbyl Palmitate. The ingredients are listed alphabetically because sunscreens are classified as OTC drugs and can declare the ingredients in this way. (While cosmetics have to have it according to amount.) This makes it extremely difficult to guess how this sunscreen is. I see a Seppic polymer (Sepiplus S) that can be used in O/W and W/O compositions. (This does not help either). However, I am 99% sure that this is an O/W creme. This polymer gives a very pleasant skin-feel to finished products. (Sometimes have a tacky, stingy feel). It does uses some excellent anti-oxidants: Ergothioneine (Barnet/AGI Derm.), Micrococcus Lysate (Barnet/AGI Derm.) and Plankton Extract (ISP/Ashland). All of these have documented effects of protection (Plankton Extract, Ergothioneine) or repair of DNA damage (Micrococcus Lysate).

"Transparent zinc, a highly effective physical sunscreen, defends against broad-spectrum UVA/UVB exposure. Octinoxate and octisalate filter UVB rays." Mostlikely they use Zinc Clear from Dow. It does not have full UVA protection (hence the invisibility on the skin and high SPF (UVB protecting) values.

Minus for lack of other anti-oxidants (like vitamin C in stabilized form -Ascorbyl Glucoside or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate).

Elta MD Skincare, EV Physical SPF 41
Active Ingredients: 9.0% Zinc Oxide, 7.0% Titanium Dioxide

Inactive Ingredients: Aluminum Hydroxide, Butylene Glycol, Citric Acid, Dimethicone/Methicone Copolymer, Hydrated Silica, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Iron Oxide, Isopropyl Palmitate, Lecithin, Linoleic Acid, Octyldodecyl Neopentanoate, Octyl Stearate, Oleth-3 Phosphate, Perfluorononyl Dimethicone, Phenoxyethanol, Polyacrylate 13/Polyisobutene/Polysorbate 20, Purified Water, Quercetin, Sodium Hydroxide, Thioctic Acid (Alpha Lipoic Acid), Triethoxycaprylylsilane.

The ingredients are listed alphabetically here as well.
It contains higher amount of ZnO and uses TiO2 as UVB filter. Another Seppic polymer is used (Sepiplus 400) which gives highly stable emulsions (O/W) even in the presence of electrolytes (as in sunscreen). Almost certain they use Z-Cote (BASF) that also have higher/better UVA protecting values than that of Zinc Clear. Has documented SPF-boosting ingredient (Octyldodecyl Neopentanoate). Very good multifunctional antioxidant: Quercetin.
Minus for Aluminum Hydroxide (SPF booster), and for lack of other anti-oxidants.

Conclusion: I think both will do a good job in the winter/early spring although I would go for Neova DNA Damage Control because it has better (and several) anti-oxidants. The polymer used can give a cushiony, more moisturizing, long-lasting-comfort-feeling on skin. This can be very pleasant in colder winter climates.

[Eva Victoria]

Agree with you completely! It is all about money, sadly.
Thank you again for all your kind words, Jeremy!
Hope you'll like the sunscreen you will pick

...See why I trust your opinion?

It's funny how some people arrive here with almost some kind of desperation. Marketing induces you to think that the higher SPF, the better the product is, and that's what only matters in a sunscreen. They make low SPF sound like you aren't getting enough protection.
Scientists must live under pressure to balance the ideal formula from a dermatologist perspective and from the marketing perspective, both pressured by the company.

Sometimes it is difficult for the ones that don't know much about skin to find proper skin care products. And you're helping a lot with that, Eva.

Thank you for the answer!

Edited by Eva Victoria, 13 December 2012 - 10:04 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

I think Allie Gel Sunscreen SPF 50+ is a very good alternative for the summer. It is extremely light, leaves a matte finish and has a reliable UVA protection (ZnO and Uvinul A). It is also mild for the skin (which is important when one uses it every day.)

Thank you very much, Eva! Really interesting information. Neova it is.

One last question, considering these are good for winter/early spring, do you have any specific sunscreens you'd recommend for the summer? If only I'd find you before I had went to Australia last year lol! Thanks again.

- JB

Hi JB Forrester,

Neova DNA Damage Control
Active Ingredients: Octinoxate 6.5%, Octisalate 2.5%, Zinc Oxide 8.5%.

Inactive Ingredients: Allantoin, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Butylene Glycol, Cetearyl Glucoside, Citric Acid, Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone, Ergothioneine, Ethyl Hexyl Isononanoate, Glycereth-26, Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyldimethyl Taurate Copolymer, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Isopropyl Palmitate, Lecithin, Micrococcus Lysate, Octyl Stearate, Oleth-3 Phosphate, Panthenol, PEG-7 Trimethylolpropane Coconut Ether, Phenoxyethanol, Plankton Extract, Polyether-1, Polyisobutene, Purified Water, Retinyl Palmitate, Sodium Hyaluronate, Sodium Hydroxide, Tocopheryl Acetate, Triethoxycaprylylsilane.

It has enough ZnO (at least for winter/early spring), but I do not like Ascorbyl Palmitate. The ingredients are listed alphabetically because sunscreens are classified as OTC drugs and can declare the ingredients in this way. (While cosmetics have to have it according to amount.) This makes it extremely difficult to guess how this sunscreen is. I see a Seppic polymer (Sepiplus S) that can be used in O/W and W/O compositions. (This does not help either). However, I am 99% sure that this is an O/W creme. This polymer gives a very pleasant skin-feel to finished products. (Sometimes have a tacky, stingy feel). It does uses some excellent anti-oxidants: Ergothioneine (Barnet/AGI Derm.), Micrococcus Lysate (Barnet/AGI Derm.) and Plankton Extract (ISP/Ashland). All of these have documented effects of protection (Plankton Extract, Ergothioneine) or repair of DNA damage (Micrococcus Lysate).

"Transparent zinc, a highly effective physical sunscreen, defends against broad-spectrum UVA/UVB exposure. Octinoxate and octisalate filter UVB rays." Mostlikely they use Zinc Clear from Dow. It does not have full UVA protection (hence the invisibility on the skin and high SPF (UVB protecting) values.

Minus for lack of other anti-oxidants (like vitamin C in stabilized form -Ascorbyl Glucoside or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate).

Elta MD Skincare, EV Physical SPF 41
Active Ingredients: 9.0% Zinc Oxide, 7.0% Titanium Dioxide

Inactive Ingredients: Aluminum Hydroxide, Butylene Glycol, Citric Acid, Dimethicone/Methicone Copolymer, Hydrated Silica, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Iron Oxide, Isopropyl Palmitate, Lecithin, Linoleic Acid, Octyldodecyl Neopentanoate, Octyl Stearate, Oleth-3 Phosphate, Perfluorononyl Dimethicone, Phenoxyethanol, Polyacrylate 13/Polyisobutene/Polysorbate 20, Purified Water, Quercetin, Sodium Hydroxide, Thioctic Acid (Alpha Lipoic Acid), Triethoxycaprylylsilane.

The ingredients are listed alphabetically here as well.
It contains higher amount of ZnO and uses TiO2 as UVB filter. Another Seppic polymer is used (Sepiplus 400) which gives highly stable emulsions (O/W) even in the presence of electrolytes (as in sunscreen). Almost certain they use Z-Cote (BASF) that also have higher/better UVA protecting values than that of Zinc Clear. Has documented SPF-boosting ingredient (Octyldodecyl Neopentanoate). Very good multifunctional antioxidant: Quercetin.
Minus for Aluminum Hydroxide (SPF booster), and for lack of other anti-oxidants.

Conclusion: I think both will do a good job in the winter/early spring although I would go for Neova DNA Damage Control because it has better (and several) anti-oxidants. The polymer used can give a cushiony, more moisturizing, long-lasting-comfort-feeling on skin. This can be very pleasant in colder winter climates.

[happy lemon]

Hi Eva,

One of my friends bought this sunscreen a while ago. She likes it very much because it leaves no white cast on the skin.

From the net, some people claimed that they got sunburn after doing outdoor activtiies, even though they did not go swimming.

I cannot recall if it is you who have said that oil in the sunscreen can speed up oxidization and are no good ingredients in sunscreen.

25% ZnO

Sunscreen Lotion Ingredients: Purified Water, Zinc Oxide, Oryza Sativa (Organic Rice Bran Extract), Carthamus Tinctorius (organic Safflower Seed Oil), Butyrospermum Parkii Seed (Organic Shea Butter), Organic Grapeseed Oil

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Happy Lemon,

I think what I sad that natural oils in sunscreen will contribute to oiliness and less staying power on the skin. The oils in this sunscreen seem to be more stable to oxidation than other natural oils. But it is true that natural oils will oxidize faster than esters that actually stable against oxidation.
The reason for burning when using a sunscreen with 25% ZnO can be that the ZnO used in this sunscreen might be an excellent UVA protector but a less efficient UVB (burning) protector. Might be that the sunscreen has an in vitro SPF of 15? And if it is midday sun in a Southern climate, maybe even summer, then it will infortunately not be sufficient enough to protect for several hours. If the UV index is higher than 4 and one would wish to spend longer hours outside, I would go for a sunscreen that has an SPF of 50+ and a high PPD (20).

I think this sunscreen your friend has used can be an excellent everyday sunscreen (minor activities outside) but not something that one should use when one needs more and longer protection.
One more thing, I would not recommend this sunscreen because of the high oil content, which can be difficult to create an acceptable cosmetic finish. (And the lack of anti-oxidants.)

One should also remember that sunscreens will not give 100% protection. And they should not be used as sole defense against UV-exposure. Wide brimmed hat, sunglasses and protective clothing additionally to sunscreen are much more reliable and also provide more even protection against UVB and UVA rays than conventional sunscreens can.
Of course, the best and most efficient protection against UVR is to avoid it (=staying inside or in the shade; although the shade will provide only 50% reduction in UVR. However this 50% is always a huge reduction and it is an even reduction of the UVB and UVA rays! While most sunscreens will always reduce UVB rays more that UVA rays. This is why we call them UVB-biased protection.

On this thought I would mention that the ideal sunscreen would reduce UVB and UVA equally -or close to equal- very much like shade does.) ZnO is a type of sunscreen that has almost equal reduction in UVB and UVA rays (as long as it is not nano-size, of course). (But ZnO is a week UVB protector and a sunscreen that is composed of non-micro or micronized ZnO as the only UV-filter, will have a low SPF but almost equal PPD.

To formulate high SPF product with non-nano ZnO is impossible because the amount of ZnO needed will result in a white mask on the skin which would not be very flattering. It would also be very drying so more oil would be needed to compensate. This would also make that the product would be a paste and very unpleasant to apply and wear. Not to mention the costs. Since ZnO is an expensive raw-material and the additional costs for the oils that will have to compensate the dryness, it would result in much higher costs than necessary (or most companies are willing to invest). It is much wiser to combine 10-20% micronized and coated ZnO with OMC (and/or other UVA filters like Tinosorb S, Tinosorb M, Uvinul A) to achieve a synergistic UV-protection with a significantly higher UVB protection (even when combined only with one UVA-filter). It would also result in boosted UVA protection when combined with (a) UVA-filter(s) even in small amounts. (The latter would also result in a balanced UVB, UVA protection; while combination with a UVB filter will tilt the balance to a stronger UVB protector than UVA-protector.
F.ex. 5% ZnO + 3% Tinosorb M will give an SPF 10-15 and UVA 8-12, depending on the formulation. While 5% ZnO and 3.5% OMC will result also in an SPF 13-15 but UVA around 5, depending on the formulation. The first sunscreen will be a more balanced protector but more expensive to produce (not to mention that it would not be allowed to sell in the US). The other sunscreen would be more economical to produce, more gentle on the skin, easier to formulate a more elegant sunscreen and it would be possible to sell world-wide (in the EU the ZnO could not be claimed as a contributor to the UVA protection and nor could it claim the 1/3 UVA protection (even though in real-life it does have 1/3 UVA protection!).

This answer is very much off-topic but I hope it can serves as some information about sunscreens generally.

Here is a link to an article about a new molecular UVA-sunscreen

http://www.cosmetics...ewsletter+Daily

Hi Eva,

One of my friends bought this sunscreen a while ago. She likes it very much because it leaves no white cast on the skin.

From the net, some people claimed that they got sunburn after doing outdoor activtiies, even though they did not go swimming.

I cannot recall if it is you who have said that oil in the sunscreen can speed up oxidization and are no good ingredients in sunscreen.

25% ZnO

Sunscreen Lotion Ingredients: Purified Water, Zinc Oxide, Oryza Sativa (Organic Rice Bran Extract), Carthamus Tinctorius (organic Safflower Seed Oil), Butyrospermum Parkii Seed (Organic Shea Butter), Organic Grapeseed Oil

[happy lemon]

Eva,

Wow, thanks for your reply; the info you provided was really helpful & informative. I will ask my friend to check out this post.

If I go to the States, I will try this sunscreen to see how it goes.

Have a good weekend!

[BDon]

Eva,

My mother and my sister are really into the "skinceuticals" in your knowledge what are the very very important! supplements/ingredients ~ regimen to follow that really do work for anti-aging, keeping the skin young, great color, baby-like skin and all that. So far they do

~ Hot olive oil on skin
~ Sauna every two days for long session
~ Diuretic foods, drinks
~ High intake of H2o (Water) daily.
~ Argan oil but expensive.
~ Baby-oil
~ They take a shower and use a scrubber to scrub skin all over the body with a Natural Soap that has no chemical...

[Eva Victoria]

Sunscreen is one proven weapon against aging. Along with sun-avoidance. See my previous post in this thread there is more explained about sun protection.
The list you have written, I cannot see that any of these "remedies" are proven as preventing aging nor repairing damage. High water intake and sauna are also very controversial. Oils alone will not provide much moisture, would they?

Eva,

My mother and my sister are really into the "skinceuticals" in your knowledge what are the very very important! supplements/ingredients ~ regimen to follow that really do work for anti-aging, keeping the skin young, great color, baby-like skin and all that. So far they do

~ Hot olive oil on skin
~ Sauna every two days for long session
~ Diuretic foods, drinks
~ High intake of H2o (Water) daily.
~ Argan oil but expensive.
~ Baby-oil
~ They take a shower and use a scrubber to scrub skin all over the body with a Natural Soap that has no chemical...

[JeremyPJme]

Hello Eva,


I have another question for you, this time about retinoids:

There are a lot of misleading information about tretinoin interacting with uv rays. If you are familiar with it, could you give us your point of view?

and there are also very few material about long-term usage of it.

What is the best way (mainly in terms of efficacy and safety), in your opinion, to use tretinoin in long-term?


Have a nice day!

Edited by JeremyPJme, 28 December 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[JeremyPJme]

The girl in your avatar is you?

I can't tell exactly because the picture is a bit blurry but, if it's you, you look very pretty. And the hand gives an extra feminine touch to it haha. Couldn't help to say it!

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Jeremy,

Thank you for the complements. It is me in the picture. (Although it is not a very good one.)
What I know bout Tretinoin is that it does interact with UVR and should not be, in any circumstances, used in the presence of UVR. (Use it at night and wash it off first thing in the morning.)
It is a very efficient medication against acne and photo-damage. (The emphasis is on medication!) Increasing collagen production and has positive effects on other biological functions of the skin. (Attaching some files where you can read more about the effect.)

It has many side-effects, among others irritation. This is significant in the first 6 months and tend to lessen afterwards.
I have seen some studies about the long term use and they all agree on recommending a lower usage (0.05%) creme (no gel) and using it every night. A small portion (like a half pea size) should be sufficient for the whole face. Visible effects on photo-aging are said to be seen after 6 months and dramatic changes from 3 years of usage.

I think sun avoidance, combined with regular use of sunscreen will prevent photo-aging and the use of Tretinoin and other medications can be prevented/postponed, unless one needs to medicate acne.
But if you choose to use Tretinoin, I would advise you to wait as long as possible (at least till 30). Start gradually. Use Tretinoin Creme 0.05% (Retin-A) once or twice a week, only at night, half a pea-size amount, and when tolerated, increase usage up to 5 to 7 times a week. This may take about 6 month to be able to use it every night.
Always use a sunscreen of at least SPF 15 every day while using Tretinoin.

I would advice not to use it with other products, like AHA/BHA/Azaleic Acid or cosmetics.
A very mild cleanser AM and PM followed by a gentle Vitamin C serum/ anti-oxidant serum in the morning (when skin is accustomed to Tretinoin), a light-medium moisturizer with a broad spectrum sunscreen (preferably one that contain ZnO; it is also soothing) in the morning; at night follow Tretinoin with a mild medium/rich moisturizer that is fragrance-free and very mild. (Like Avene: Skin Recovery Creme Rich).

Avoid products that are fragranced and/or have far too many ingredients on the ingredients declaration. Keep it simple. At least your skin will have a surviving chance.

Hope, it was of some help

PS: I don't manage to upload all files because of their size. If you send me your mail address in a PM, I'll mail them to you. (The two files are about a study of increase of collagen and other fibers by Kligman, illustrated with pictures.)

Hello Eva,


I have another question for you, this time about retinoids:

There are a lot of misleading information about tretinoin interacting with uv rays. If you are familiar with it, could you give us your point of view?

and there are also very few material about long-term usage of it.

What is the best way (mainly in terms of efficacy and safety), in your opinion, to use tretinoin in long-term?


Have a nice day!

Attached Files

•  Effects.on.Photo.Aging.pdf   1.34MB   20 downloads
•  UVeffect.pdf   335.25KB   14 downloads

[happy lemon]

......Avoid products that are fragranced and/or have far too many ingredients on the ingredients declaration. Keep it simple. At least your skin will have a surviving chance......

Hi Eva,

Knowing that you are also a consultant of skin care products, I would like to know if you think that the serum has too many active ingredients; if so, what would you take it/them away?


I found this DIY recipe in a forum & people who had mixed it claimed that it was good.

Kinetin 0.10%
Genistein 1.00%
Bisabolol 0.50%
EtOH 3.00%
Borage oil 10.00%
Lecithin 5.00%
CoQ10 0.50%
citric acid 2.00%
Niacinamide 5.00%
Glucosamine 2.00%
Sea Emollient 6.00%
Vit E 1.00%
H20 51.35%
Myrtus communis 3.00%
L carnosine 1.00%
Ginger extract 1.00%
Biotin 0.25%
Scooter gum 0.80%
NaOH 1.00%
coffeeberry extract 1.00%
L-Proline 1.00%
N-Acetyl-L-Hydroxyproline 2.00%
Retinol 1.00%
Phenoxyethanol 0.50%
100.00%

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Happy Lemon,

First of all this formula has far too high percentage of actives. Unnecessary and not too good for your skin. It has also an insane amount of Citic Acid. It is used as a chalater or/and as a PH adjuster (but in a much much lower concentration, 0.01-0.05%). I would replace it with Disodium EDTA 0.1%.

I will write my suggestions after the given percentage of this formula.

Kinetin 0.10% OK
Genistein 1.00% 0.1% (if it is powder, you will need Alcohol to dissolve it. Alcohol 0.1%)
Bisabolol 0.50% OK
EtOH 3.00% If it refers to Alcohol, I would NOT use it at all.
Borage oil 10.00% I would replace it with Dimethicone (3-6%) and Squalane (4-7%) for more elegant finish for the serum.
Lecithin 5.00% Very good but unnecessary at so high concentration. My suggestion 1-3%. Remember to hydrate in the oil-phase for at least 15-30 min.
CoQ10 0.50% OK, although 0.1-0.3% is more than enough. Has to be dissolved in a polar solvent like Alkyl Benzoate.
citric acid 2.00% I would replace it with Disodium EDTA 0.1%.
Niacinamide 5.00% Far too high concentration for a serum when skin is not accostummed to Vit. B3. First, I would start with 1% and gradually increase it up to 3%.
Glucosamine 2.00% Good.
Sea Emollient 6.00% Assuming it is Algae Extract. You can use 10% or even more. It will give a very nice light feeling to your serum and will norture the skin with its high content of minerals and other beneficial ingredients.
Vit E 1.00% I would start with 0.2-0.6%. 1% might be far too high esp. when skin is not accustomed.
H20 51.35% Up to 100%.
Myrtus communis 3.00% Is it the Extract of the plant? I would not add any! It has no proven benefits for skin.
L carnosine 1.00% If it is powder and not sollution, it is a far too high concentration. 0.1% is more than enough.
Ginger extract 1.00% It is a circulation enhancer with other benefits for the skin. 0.3% would be sufficient.
Biotin 0.25% Excellent! 0.2-0.5% is perfect.
Scooter gum 0.80% Is it Sclerotium Gum? If it is, it is excellent for your skin! But it is very difficult to dissolve, you will need a homogenizer. The max. you can use is 1% of the water needed in the product. (Here it would be about 0.5%). You can replace it with Xanthan Gum (0.1-0.2%) or Polysorbate-20 (0.8-1%). Polysorbate-20 is easier to use and it will emulsify the product easier if you don't have access to a homogenizer.
NaOH 1.00% Would not use it unless you will need for PH adjustment. PH of the final product should be about 5.5 but in some of the actives in this serum will require PH 6.5. Measure PH of the final product and adjust with NAOH 10% solution accordingly. (TEA is easier to use.) Should addition of a PH elevator be neccessary and you add too much so the PH is far too high, you can adjust with the addition of Citric Acid in very small amount (0.01%).
coffeeberry extract 1.00% If it is powder, you will need much less, 0.1%. Have to be dissolved in alcohol or polar solvent.
L-Proline 1.00% If it is powder, you will need much less, 0.01%.
N-Acetyl-L-Hydroxyproline 2.00% If it is powder, you will need much less, 0.01%.
Retinol 1.00% I assume it is already dissolved and the final concentration is 0.1% of Retinol. If it is powder, you will need 0.01%. Has to be dissolved in a polar solvent!
Phenoxyethanol 0.50% Alone it will not be enough. Add glycols to water-phase additionally for better microbial stability. Glycols are also humectants (bind moisture to the skin ithout feeling oily or heavy. Butylene Glycol, Propylene Glycol, Pentylene Glycol are easily obtained. Use between 4-10. Glycerin can also be added additionally. Use 1-3%.
Additional preservatives can also be added. Benzyl Alcohol, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate or combination of these, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, or parabens.

You will need an emulsifier (or rather several) to obtain a homogenous product that will stay homogenous in the long run.
Be aware, that it might take several trials before you end up with the desired final product.

I will send you a simpler base formula that you can add water soluble ingredients to (deceasing the total amount of the water in the final formula). The formula is much easier to make, you will not need a homogenizer or other lab equipment and special knowledge to make it. And the ingredients are much easier to obtain (even from a decent pharmacy has them); the desired actives (and preservatives, although my suggested preservative-system can be bought from a pharmacy) can be bought online.

It is fun to make your own serums (and easy)!

......Avoid products that are fragranced and/or have far too many ingredients on the ingredients declaration. Keep it simple. At least your skin will have a surviving chance......

Hi Eva,

Knowing that you are also a consultant of skin care products, I would like to know if you think that the serum has too many active ingredients; if so, what would you take it/them away?


I found this DIY recipe in a forum & people who had mixed it claimed that it was good.

Kinetin 0.10%
Genistein 1.00%
Bisabolol 0.50%
EtOH 3.00%
Borage oil 10.00%
Lecithin 5.00%
CoQ10 0.50%
citric acid 2.00%
Niacinamide 5.00%
Glucosamine 2.00%
Sea Emollient 6.00%
Vit E 1.00%
H20 51.35%
Myrtus communis 3.00%
L carnosine 1.00%
Ginger extract 1.00%
Biotin 0.25%
Scooter gum 0.80%
NaOH 1.00%
coffeeberry extract 1.00%
L-Proline 1.00%
N-Acetyl-L-Hydroxyproline 2.00%
Retinol 1.00%
Phenoxyethanol 0.50%
100.00%

[happy lemon]

Hi Eva,

Wow, thanks for your precious time in writing up such useful and informative comments.

[spirilla01]

Hi Eva,
first of all, thanks for your time and excellent advice on skin care which are highly appreciated by all of us.
I´ve been using retin a for more than 5 years with excellent results. My skin is tone is very even and my wrinkles has decreased a lot. I´m still using retin a on a daily basis 0.05% but was wondering if I should include some sort of peptides like skinbiology ? I have very fair, dry and sensible skin and it has taken me some time to find the optimal combo of retin a at night and moisturizer in the morning and during the day. I would be very grateful for any suggestion as how to move on from here ?
thanks