72 replies to this topic

[steelsky]

Some of you know me by now.
I've been having a sleepiness problem for 8 years now. I'd say it's borderline narcolepsy as sometimes I get sleepiness "attacks" that I just can't handle (have to find a secluded place (even at the office) to sleep for a while).

Note that I describe "sleepiness" and not "fatigue", as it is mainly a feeling of needing to fall asleep, and not a lack of energy.

I sometimes wake up well rested, but the feeling doesn't last for more than about 6 hours. This is also true for when taking Ritalin or Modafinil, which even when they work great (under the influence is how I'd like to always feel!) they don't last (even Concerta).

I've also tried Bupropion, which was great for a week or so, but doesn't hold up and its main effect seem to have worn off.

I'm not trying Deprenyl (1mg drop under tongue), and while it is a real mood lifer (also re. motivation), it actually seems to make me more sleepy. I haven't yet tried to take it "with" Modafinil or Bupropion, and I hope it might "enhance" their effect so that they'll last longer.

Note that I take Prozac (~40mg daily), but I did try to stop and it didn't help my sleepiness at all.

On the supp front I've tried a lot of stuff, notably:
- ALCAR and ALA
- L-thyrosine
- Melatonin (from 0.5mg to 10mg, with confusing results... sometimes it gets me extremely tired for an entire day or two, sometimes just the opposite... I can't trust it)
- GABA
- Ginkgo, Ginseng, coQ10
- Idebenone, Vinpocetine, Sulbotiamine
- Piracetam, Oxiracetam, Aniracetam
- ATP (the PEAK brand)
- Probiotics
- Chlorella and Spirulina
- Huperzine A
- D-ribose
- Creatine (that one I didn't really asses with much attention, so I should really try noticing if it has any effect)

Haven't tried these but I've seen them mentioned a few times in the forum and they're interesting:
Vyvanse, Pramipexol, Agomelatine or Ramelteon
(Which is most available commercially, and which is most recommended to fight sleepiness)

I desperately seek your help in the matter. I've really tried almost everything and nothing seem to fit the bill. This is probably my ONLY problem in life - the fact that I can't seem to keep myself awake for more than a few hours... and if I don't have any way of sleeping when sleepiness creeps in - I suffer a great deal.

Any suggestions?

[rwac]

Have you tried SAMe in the morning and glycine+5htp at night ?

Really works quite well for me.

Edited by rwac, 21 June 2009 - 08:34 AM.

[steelsky]

Have you tried SAMe in the morning and glycine+5htp at night ?

Really works quite well for me.

Sadly I have no trust in "natural" or "herbal" substances anymore. I do take plenty (my regimen is extensive) for well being, but as far as my sleepiness problem - I doubt there's anything there that might make such a big difference.

(BTW, I did try 5-htp before... nada).

[4eva]

When I started taking melatonin regularly it made me sensitive to not being able to sleep if the sun was shinning.
But I've read that melatonin and SSRIs can be a bad combination.

Have you thought about trying a source of natural light? Do you get outdoors on a regular basis?

Have you ruled out sleep apnea or other sleep-related problems?

[steelsky]

When I started taking melatonin regularly it made me sensitive to not being able to sleep if the sun was shinning.
But I've read that melatonin and SSRIs can be a bad combination.

Have you thought about trying a source of natural light? Do you get outdoors on a regular basis?

Have you ruled out sleep apnea or other sleep-related problems?

Thanks for the input. Melatonin is really a strange one, as sometimes it makes me alert after a couple of hours of sleep (yet very rarely). On other occasions it just makes me incredibly tired, even after a long sleep.

Natural light is not the problem. I regularly go out during the day, and I get sleepy even during mid daytime.

I haven't ruled out anything. My doctors ran some tests and found nothing significant (they found traces of mono, and at the sleep clinic they found irregular movement... but not enough to explain my problem). So now I just go with possible solutions - not possible health issues. Whatever might help - throw it this way.

(btw, today, after a weekend of much sleep, I took 300mg Adrafinil and 10mg Ritalin and woke up 3 hours later, albeit very unwillingly. After waking up I took 200mg Modafinil and felt very vibrant and alert... sadly, this lasted no more than 4 hours, after which I just had to come home and sleep. Note that today I took 1mg of deprenyl (liquid, sublingualy), but that was after the sleepiness attack).

[4eva]

I forgot that B12 is supposed to help with daytime sleepiness. It can make you feel more alert during the day
Its hard to imagine that you've had low B12 levels for 8 years without experiencing any other symptoms.

[steelsky]

I forgot that B12 is supposed to help with daytime sleepiness. It can make you feel more alert during the day
Its hard to imagine that you've had low B12 levels for 8 years without experiencing any other symptoms.

Nice shot, but - I take B12 lozenges under the tongue for a while now, and I eat right. I've also been checked and my levels are higher than average.

[StrangeAeons]

Obviously if there's some sort of underlying cause than that's the most important thing. Have you had a sleep study done?

The fact that stimulants don't last would suggest that you just need to split up the dosage and take some every few hours to keep your levels up (i.e. 50mg of provigil every 4 hours instead of taking a 200mg pill to tide you over the full 16 hours); it could also be tolerance; but if nothing else works you fight tolerance the old fashioned way: higher dosage.

[steelsky]

Obviously if there's some sort of underlying cause than that's the most important thing. Have you had a sleep study done?

The fact that stimulants don't last would suggest that you just need to split up the dosage and take some every few hours to keep your levels up (i.e. 50mg of provigil every 4 hours instead of taking a 200mg pill to tide you over the full 16 hours); it could also be tolerance; but if nothing else works you fight tolerance the old fashioned way: higher dosage.

I've yet to try the high dosage approach except on SSRI (my dear Prozac), which I took 60mg of at hard times. The highest Modafinil dose I've tried so far is 300mg, and not at once. I've tried bupropion at 300mg as well.

Do you think I should try an SSRE (Tianeptine)? I'm not sure since Prozac helped me so much over the years in overcoming depression, so I must need it.

Strangest thing, though. I've recently (about two weeks now) started on Piracetam, which upped my mood (yet trying Oxiracetam and Aniracetam yielded nothing of the sort). I have now (two days now) added Choline and DMAE. I've also went back on Bupropion after starting on liquid deprenyl (1-2mg daily)....
It's been a while since I've felt so alert (un-sleepy). I have absolutely no desire to sleep, which is something I couldn't say before on most times of the day (on which even if the sleepiness was mild - I didn't mind sleeping).
I'm not sure this has anything to do with Choline or DMAE, though I'd appreciate your theories. I believe it is mostly due to the Bupropion+deprenyl, which is a risky combo, I know, but some have reported positive results on it.
Important to note that I have been off Bupropion for a while now, and the first time I took it the results were outstanding, yet after about a week I hardly felt it. My current feeling may be due to the cessation.

[Arc]

Perhaps try some stimulants that have longer half lives? The only problem with this being you probably wont be able to get them very easily (legally) i.e. dextromethamphetamine (do any of the pharms even produce it anymore?) or desoxypipradrol.

Whenever stimulants fail there's always a stronger one you can use...

Otherwise try taking a high dose and see what that does. Also have you ruled out that nothing else is the cause of this, i.e. have you had brain scans done?

Edited by Arc, 22 June 2009 - 08:34 AM.

[rwac]

Have you looked into the possibility of Chronic Infection ?

[steelsky]

Have you looked into the possibility of Chronic Infection ?

I was suggested to possibly have lyme. I consulted the doctor but she thought this makes no sense (but told me she can run tests if I wish). I'm unsure which test to ask for.

[rwac]

I was suggested to possibly have lyme. I consulted the doctor but she thought this makes no sense (but told me she can run tests if I wish). I'm unsure which test to ask for.

You should get the IGeneX Western Blot IgG/IgM.
There are certain bands which the other labs don't report.

Also, generally insurance won't cover Western Blot testing by IGeneX.
You can skip the initial ELISA test to save some money, because it's not very accurate and needs to be followed by the Western Blot anyways.

[steelsky]

I was suggested to possibly have lyme. I consulted the doctor but she thought this makes no sense (but told me she can run tests if I wish). I'm unsure which test to ask for.

You should get the IGeneX Western Blot IgG/IgM.
There are certain bands which the other labs don't report.

Also, generally insurance won't cover Western Blot testing by IGeneX.
You can skip the initial ELISA test to save some money, because it's not very accurate and needs to be followed by the Western Blot anyways.

I will check it out (thanks). I don't live in the US so I'll have to check about insurance, but if you believe I have a strong chance of finding something - I'll pay what it takes. To convince my doctor (and explain to her), ehat other bands might cause this sleepiness other than Lyme?
BTW, I've done vitamins/thyroid/testosterone and similar tests and my results are "better" than the norm (I do have a large daily regimen of supps).

To update - this might be a "couple-of-days" kind of period I've experienced in the past but I feel great. I take 1 Selepryl drop in the morning and 1 in the afternoon. I take 150mg Bupropion in the morning (today I took an extra 10mg of Ritalin cause I didn't sleep much). I also added Choline and DMAE to the mix, together with ~1800mg Piracetam in the morning and ~900mg in the evening, which I've been taking for a month.
I hope the Deprenyl isn't "fighting" with the Bupropion, as many Warned about the combination, but I don't experience any side effects (albeit it being a couple of days trail so far).
I'd appreciate theories.

[djmmm]

First I would get blood work done (CBC) if you haven't already--

Before trying anymore or medications, I would suggest

1)you try a detox/food allergy elimination diet ( for 2 months). I would add a liver/detox (with digestive enzymes) supplement while doing this.

2) increase your protein intake in the morning, and reserve carbs for the evening.

3) eat often and consciously-- to maintain blood sugar.

4) add 30min of exercise a day

5) Preserve your sleep architecture-- go to bed at the same time each night, and wake up at the same time each morning.

I know this sounds simple-- maybe even silly to some people-- but food allergies, and dysbiosis cause inflammation. Inflammation is the leading cause of MOST of the illnesses effecting us today.

good luck

[steelsky]

First I would get blood work done (CBC) if you haven't already--

Will do

1)you try a detox/food allergy elimination diet ( for 2 months). I would add a liver/detox (with digestive enzymes) supplement while doing this.

Allergy elimination diet? I didn't know there was such a thing. However, I did consider allergies as a possible cause.
What do I do?

2) increase your protein intake in the morning, and reserve carbs for the evening.

I've tried many types of diets. Nothing works.

3) eat often and consciously-- to maintain blood sugar.

4) add 30min of exercise a day

That I do already.

I know this sounds simple-- maybe even silly to some people-- but food allergies, and dysbiosis cause inflammation. Inflammation is the leading cause of MOST of the illnesses effecting us today.

I think my "inflammation levels" were indirectly checked and I performed fine. I also take multiple supplements (e.g. omega 3) to reduce inflammation.

Oh, and an update - again I took about 1900mg Piracetam, 800mg DMAE, 800mg Choline Bitartrate, 1mg Deprenyl in the morning and 150mg Bupropion - in the morning. I also took 750mg Aniracetam and a dose of Idebenone (I also take Sulbutiamine every day). I did feel tired close to noon, but it was manageable. I felt very motivated and I pulled through (however, I did take 20mg of Ritalin to releave the sleepiness). I got sleepy again close to the evening. Took 1mg deprenyl and 3mg Melatonin and went to sleep. I woke up NATURALLY 3 hours later. Felt slightly sleepy but tried to do some work. Felt fine (it was late in the evening) for about 3 hours and decided (even though I could have went on) to go to sleep again.
I have a suspicion that the deprenyl might be enhancing the Bupropion and Ritalin.

Edited by steelsky, 24 June 2009 - 02:46 AM.

[rwac]

Have you tried a paleo diet ?
Also, how much Omega-3 do you take ?

Edited by rwac, 24 June 2009 - 04:56 AM.

[steelsky]

Have you tried a paleo diet ?
Also, how much Omega-3 do you take ?

Never heard of that diet.
I'm unsure as to the exact daily dose of Omega-3 but it's relatively high. I take 6-8 cod liver oil pills, each should be about 500mg. I take 400-2,000IU vitamin D, 1g Vitamin C, I take some Spirulina and Chlorella (the former is rich in GLA (Omega-6), which is generally good, yet I've read that the ratio between 3 and 6 is key, and that too much "6" isn't good... still, I take only about 2-3g). Used to take B complex (high bioavailability and regular kind), which ran out, but I don't feel any difference now that I'm off it.

[rwac]

Never heard of that diet.
I'm unsure as to the exact daily dose of Omega-3 but it's relatively high. I take 6-8 cod liver oil pills, each should be about 500mg. I take 400-2,000IU vitamin D, 1g Vitamin C, I take some Spirulina and Chlorella (the former is rich in GLA (Omega-6), which is generally good, yet I've read that the ratio between 3 and 6 is key, and that too much "6" isn't good... still, I take only about 2-3g). Used to take B complex (high bioavailability and regular kind), which ran out, but I don't feel any difference now that I'm off it.

It's similar to a low carb diet, have you tried that ?
Get your body used to burning fat, and you wont need carbs so much.

Paleo diet says you may want to avoid grains and PUFA(corn, canola etc) oils as well.

I'm wondering if your blood sugar is dropping which makes you sleepy.
Does food affect your sleepiness at all ?

[StrangeAeons]

After looking over your posts one of the first things that comes to mind is burnout. I haven't really researched this so it's just intuition, but it looks like you're constantly escalating your energy stack to a ridiculous level. Your body has feedback loops for this kind of stuff, and in the end it's kind of a zero-sum game. You might get some benefit from inducing syngergistic interactions, but if you have to resort to that just to get through the day than perhaps it's time you taper it all back slowly and try to get off all stimulants. I can't say this for sure, and I really think you should consult with a doctor and be completely honest about everything you've been taking. Going off stims will probably suck terribly, but if all you're doing is constantly upping the ante than eventually you'll either go into a cardiac arrhythmia or your liver/kidneys will give.

The "pervasive allergy" stuff and the hype about inflammation are varying degrees of BS if you ask me. Yes, there are some "inflammatory" foods which might be detrimental to long-term health. Thing is, because it's not "mainstream", those who espouse these alternative theories compromise whatever intrinsic validity these things have by going overboard with the claims of what these things can cause, right into the domain of things we have better methods of accounting for first.

[steelsky]

Never heard of that diet.
I'm unsure as to the exact daily dose of Omega-3 but it's relatively high. I take 6-8 cod liver oil pills, each should be about 500mg. I take 400-2,000IU vitamin D, 1g Vitamin C, I take some Spirulina and Chlorella (the former is rich in GLA (Omega-6), which is generally good, yet I've read that the ratio between 3 and 6 is key, and that too much "6" isn't good... still, I take only about 2-3g). Used to take B complex (high bioavailability and regular kind), which ran out, but I don't feel any difference now that I'm off it.

It's similar to a low carb diet, have you tried that ?
Get your body used to burning fat, and you wont need carbs so much.

Paleo diet says you may want to avoid grains and PUFA(corn, canola etc) oils as well.

I'm wondering if your blood sugar is dropping which makes you sleepy.
Does food affect your sleepiness at all ?

I do eat low carb. I just didn't know you can get your body "used to" burning fat.
Anyway, especially due to the Ritalin and Modafinil (and lately also the deprenyl), I don't eat much anyway, and try to eat right.

Food doesn't make me sleepy, except large meals (sometimes), but that's understandable. As for small meals - they don't effect my sleepiness or lack thereof.

Food allergies might be a different story, but I doubt it.

[steelsky]

After looking over your posts one of the first things that comes to mind is burnout. I haven't really researched this so it's just intuition, but it looks like you're constantly escalating your energy stack to a ridiculous level. Your body has feedback loops for this kind of stuff, and in the end it's kind of a zero-sum game. You might get some benefit from inducing syngergistic interactions, but if you have to resort to that just to get through the day than perhaps it's time you taper it all back slowly and try to get off all stimulants. I can't say this for sure, and I really think you should consult with a doctor and be completely honest about everything you've been taking. Going off stims will probably suck terribly, but if all you're doing is constantly upping the ante than eventually you'll either go into a cardiac arrhythmia or your liver/kidneys will give.

I've only started on Ritalin (and the other stimulants are only Modafinil, Bupropion and Deprenyl) a couple of years ago. My sleepiness issue is dated back 8 years. It also doesn't feel like fatigue at all, it's just sleepiness. I can go for a jogg while being sleepy (of course, the run makes me more alert), but when I come back it's the same story all over again.

The "pervasive allergy" stuff and the hype about inflammation are varying degrees of BS if you ask me. Yes, there are some "inflammatory" foods which might be detrimental to long-term health. Thing is, because it's not "mainstream", those who espouse these alternative theories compromise whatever intrinsic validity these things have by going overboard with the claims of what these things can cause, right into the domain of things we have better methods of accounting for first.

I don't think inflammation is the problem. Again - I was checked for it indirectly (other parameters which suggest high or low inflammation tendencies, but I don't remember which exactly), and was found above fine. I also eat right, as stated.

Improtant to note that in my early blood tests were found traces (or indications) of mono. I know it can cause CFS, but if that's the cause - what can be done?

[kilgoretrout]

Have you tried taking Tyrosine in useful amounts in a proper stack that is REQUIRED for it to be converted to Norepinephrine (adrenaline)? 2-4g Tyrosine, 50mg B-6, and 1-2g Vitamin C (preferably in Ester-C form, just because it's better for you and gentle on the stomach).. ON AN EMPTY STOMACH!!!

There are a number of peer-reviewed studies (which I have posted links to in some other thread hear) that verify beyond a doubt that Tyrosine is very effective at erasing fatigue and sleepiness and performance reductions in highly sleep-deprived people.

I can verify absolutely that it works. I have had nights when I got to bed late, only had a few hours sleep, took this in the morning and within 30 minutes I was alert as a bird with lots of energy. Add a little caffeine and you will feel on top of the world.

Now, your condition in not sleep deprivation, but I would bet that the above, plus a bit of caffeine will help you alot.

ALSO: I have found that a nice strong brew (very hot water, steep for 5-10 mins) of YERBA MATTE tea (from a south-american evergreen bush not related to the tea plant) is a revelation! It contains ALTERNATE XANTHINES, i.e., slightly different forms of caffeine that last longer and do not cause "the jitters", as well as high levels of theobromine. I have found it gives me a VERY smooth long lasting especially clear-minded alertness, noticibly superior to coffee or normal caffeine. These claims are NOT hype.

ALSO: Try the sublingual form of Methylcobalamin... this is the ACTIVE FORM of B-12... sublingual or even injected regular B-12 is a SCAM - it is just going to get eliminated from the body by the liver in a couple hours.... since it requires some pretty fancy conversion that most people's livers are very slow or just not very good at.

METHYLCOBALAMIN, however, IS the active form, DIRECTLY AND IMMEDIATELY utilized by the by processes requiring B-12. I think it even crosses the Blood-Brain barrier. Many many benefits and positive effects documented by peer reviewed research.

*** IT -STRONGLY SUPRESSES- THE DAYTIME RELEASE OF THE SLEEP HORMONE MELATONIN FROM THE PITUITARY, an effect which could help your condition.

FINALLY: Have your doctor test your body's sugar reactions. You might have HypoGlycemia... in which high-sugar or high-simple-carbohydrate foods snacks or drinks cause a strong OVER-REACTION by the pancreas, which releases TOO MUCH INSULIN, which results in your blood sugar going through the floor, and you become VERY sleepy and lethargic. This is not some mumbo-jumbo, but a REAL medical medibolic disorder that most physicians know to test for seeing your symptoms. Fortunate you can fix it by following certain dietary rules.

[StrangeAeons]

I'm not very familiar with the CFS/mono theory, but given that it's the only empirical evidence you have so far that points to your symptoms, I would follow that lead; as per there "only" being 4 drugs, that's pretty significant considering two are overt stims and the other two are synergistic; and though I haven't looked it up there's a good chance you've got a hepatic synergy in there somewhere (via CYP450's). As per sleepiness vs. fatigue I don't really differentiate, it just seems that you're describing mental fatigue as opposed to a purely physical one (I get the same thing as well, but that's a whole different story). Obviously if your problems predate the drugs then you're stuck picking the lesser of two evils, but just keep in mind that there are long term consequences of upping the ante, and that these drugs should make your condition tolerable but not eradicate it (similar to narcs for fibromyalgia and benzos for anxiety).

[steelsky]

Have you tried taking Tyrosine in useful amounts in a proper stack that is REQUIRED for it to be converted to Norepinephrine (adrenaline)? 2-4g Tyrosine, 50mg B-6, and 1-2g Vitamin C (preferably in Ester-C form, just because it's better for you and gentle on the stomach).. ON AN EMPTY STOMACH!!!

I'm regularly taking 500mg Tyrosine in the morning. I'll try taking much more tomorrow and the next day, see where it gets me. I also take B-6 and C after taking bioperine (black pepper extract) which supposedly increases absorption.

ALSO: I have found that a nice strong brew (very hot water, steep for 5-10 mins) of YERBA MATTE tea (from a south-american evergreen bush not related to the tea plant) is a revelation! It contains ALTERNATE XANTHINES, i.e., slightly different forms of caffeine that last longer and do not cause "the jitters", as well as high levels of theobromine. I have found it gives me a VERY smooth long lasting especially clear-minded alertness, noticibly superior to coffee or normal caffeine. These claims are NOT hype.

I don't think I'll be able to get it regularly. Also, I should note that caffeine never had much effect on me, if any (even double espresso's).

ALSO: Try the sublingual form of Methylcobalamin... this is the ACTIVE FORM of B-12... sublingual or even injected regular B-12 is a SCAM - it is just going to get eliminated from the body by the liver in a couple hours.... since it requires some pretty fancy conversion that most people's livers are very slow or just not very good at.

METHYLCOBALAMIN, however, IS the active form, DIRECTLY AND IMMEDIATELY utilized by the by processes requiring B-12. I think it even crosses the Blood-Brain barrier. Many many benefits and positive effects documented by peer reviewed research.

*** IT -STRONGLY SUPRESSES- THE DAYTIME RELEASE OF THE SLEEP HORMONE MELATONIN FROM THE PITUITARY, an effect which could help your condition.

Interesting. What I find relevant is the fact that I get sleepiness without general fatigue (not metal or physical), so it raises the question whether something's messed up with my "sleep activating mechanism", which out to be related to melatonin somehow. I'll check it out.

As for my blood levels - I'm pretty sure I've got the necessary test the last time, but I'll do them again.

Also an update: the past 3 days I've been taking 3-10mg melatonin before bed, and some time before that a drop of deprenyl. Firstly - I've been having vivid dreams these past days, and also maintained a manageable sleepiness level (today, for example, I never had a single "attack").
I also note that tonight I had a hard time falling asleep. I've read that this might be a side effect of deprenyl. While I did feel extremely tired, I got up and done some work which distracted me from that. I'm not sure that can be a solution (if the effect is maintained), but it's a start.

[steelsky]

I'm not very familiar with the CFS/mono theory, but given that it's the only empirical evidence you have so far that points to your symptoms, I would follow that lead; as per there "only" being 4 drugs, that's pretty significant considering two are overt stims and the other two are synergistic; and though I haven't looked it up there's a good chance you've got a hepatic synergy in there somewhere (via CYP450's).

Huh? I didn't understand much of that.
Still, the problem started way before I've begun taking the drugs.

As per sleepiness vs. fatigue I don't really differentiate, it just seems that you're describing mental fatigue as opposed to a purely physical one (I get the same thing as well, but that's a whole different story). Obviously if your problems predate the drugs then you're stuck picking the lesser of two evils, but just keep in mind that there are long term consequences of upping the ante, and that these drugs should make your condition tolerable but not eradicate it (similar to narcs for fibromyalgia and benzos for anxiety).

I'm still pretty determined to find a solution (a complete one), either by treating the source or even just the symptoms (sleepiness). As for the difference to physical fatigue - I do feel there is one. All I feel is a desire to sleep, but nothing else. I feel just fine in all other aspects, mental or physical. It's just sleepiness, an overwhelming one at that.

[NDM]

If nothing has worked so far, why don't you run a micro-experiment for a couple of days in which, when you wake up, instead of taking stimulants, you would take the kind of herbs/substances that people normally take to go to bed - Lemon Balm, Ashwagandha, Gotu Kola, Theanine? It would be counterintuitive, but by chemically forcing your body to go to sleep exactly when you wake up naturally, you might launch some physiological counter-response that might fix your rhythms. Call it a wild card.

[kilgoretrout]

steelsky wrote "I don't think I'll be able to get it regularly"

Yerba Matte should be readily available

(1) on the shelf in EVERY health food / vitamin store in the world
(2) online ordering.

http://www.guayaki.com/index.php

Ohh... I see they now have liquid energy shots made from Yerba... I bet they are a powerhouse... as well as yummy.

Anway, give it a try from any manufacuter in any form or flavor... like I said it has a mix of cousins of caffeine, with a nicer effect profile, so you might feel it more. Again this is not "health food nut hype"... I was skeptical before trying it, but it soon it became a favorite... UNQUESTIONABLY different and superior and longer-lasting effects that normal caffeine.

MAKE IT STRONG and I guarantee it will affect you. Caffeine & the Xanthines are VERY VERY potent chemicals at doing what they do. It is not so widely used for thousands of years due to some urban legend, you know!

OOOH OOOOH! Try Yerba-Mint Iced Tea.. WOW!!! Guayakí makes teabags of it combined with Mint. The Yerba is dried by smoking over some kind of aromatic wood, and this gives it a mild but REALLY intriguing and delicious flavor. When combined with the mint in those teabags, brewed very strong, well-sweetened, chilled and served over ice... wow wow wow what a flavor... plus it REALLY makes me feel alert but at the same time HIGHLY calm and focused. Truly brilliant!

Edited by kilgoretrout, 24 June 2009 - 10:24 PM.

[kilgoretrout]

Also an update: the past 3 days I've been taking 3-10mg melatonin before bed, and some time before that a drop of deprenyl. Firstly - I've been having vivid dreams these past days, and also maintained a manageable sleepiness level (today, for example, I never had a single "attack").
I also note that tonight I had a hard time falling asleep. I've read that this might be a side effect of deprenyl. While I did feel extremely tired, I got up and done some work which distracted me from that. I'm not sure that can be a solution (if the effect is maintained), but it's a start.

Uhhh... yea... man look... first Deprenyl is NOT something you ought to be messing with if you are having bizzare "sleep attacks":

From Wikipedia:

"Selegiline (l-deprenyl, Eldepryl, Zelapar, or Anipryl veterinary) is a drug used for the treatment of early-stage Parkinson's disease, depression and senile dementia. In normal clinical doses it is a selective irreversible MAO-B inhibitor, however in larger doses it loses its specificity and also inhibits MAO-A. Dietary restrictions are common for MAOI treatments, but special dietary restrictions for lower doses have been found to be unnecessary.[1] The drug was researched by Jozsef Knoll et al. (Hungary). Selegiline belongs to a class of drugs called phenethylamines. Selegiline consists of a l-desoxyephedrine (levomethamphetamine) skeleton with a propargyl group attached to the nitrogen atom.

For his research, he required a molecule that combined amphetamine-like psychostimulant effect with a "psycho-energic" effect of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI). To do that, he decided to combine in the same molecule the structural features of the MAOI pargyline and the psychostimulant amphetamine...."

Also I tried Melatonin for the supposed anti-aging benefits several years ago, but I always found I woke up a few hours after going to bed with intense bizarre dreams. All the sleep/wake/sleep/wake and the excess REM sleep (i.e., dreaming) left me feeling actually drained by morning instead of rested. DON'T MESS WITH THESE PROCESSES!!! Your brain knows best... let it make these decisions with adding chemical interference. VERY VERY BAD idea in my opinion. Many others have reported bizarre effects from the stuff.

And I think you are nuts to combine it with another hight potent psychactive, Deprenyl! You are just deranging all your natural self-regulation systems, man... that is why you are having these bizarre symptoms! Just CUT OUT all the wierd strong drug & hormone and use at most vitamin type things and adaptogenic herbs.

[kilgoretrout]

More info in Deprenyl side effects:

"Due to the primary metabolites of L-amphetamine and L-methamphetamine, Selegiline shares many side effects seen with these sympathomimetic stimulants. Minor side effects such as dizziness, dry mouth, difficulty falling or staying asleep, muscle pain, rash, nausea and constipation have been seen. More serious side effects such as severe headache, tachycardia, arrhythmia, hallucinations, chorea, or difficulty breathing should be investigated by health professionals immediately"

Dude, don't mess with this stuff.... and right before bed ???!!! Are you nuts? GO TO A DOCTOR!