78 replies to this topic

[Ben]

A while ago I started a topic inquiring whether squats qua squats were necessary.

After being advised by Shepard to have a look at Mark Rippetoe's starting strength, I did, and in it I found a piece of advice in conflict with what I'd been told by trainers, that deep squats are unnecessary, that they may even be dangerous, and if you can't do them, just forget about as they're not too important anyway.

Rippetoe's view, however, is that if the squat isn't deep enough you wont get enough hamstring activation and you will be increasing the stress on a certain part of the knee joint.

I'm wondering if anyone knows about this or can point me to some good resources that'll help me find out more. Also, I'm having trouble doing deep squats. Is there anyway I train to be able to do them?

Edited by Ben - Aus, 27 August 2009 - 01:36 PM.

[RighteousReason]

I'm doing some squats today, I'm going to try to get down to *at least* a 90 degree angle. I may do some box squats, too. I just got a new weight and bench set so I'm still experimenting a bit

[Shepard]

Also, I'm having trouble doing deep squats. Is there anyway I train to be able to do them?

Attempting to do them is the best way to be able to do them correctly.

[RighteousReason]

Box squats + power cleans. Ah, yeah. That'll do it

[eternaltraveler]

an orthopedic surgeon I worked with treated a lot of athletes with squat related knee injury. In his opinion hack squats were the orthopedic surgeon's best friend. This opinion may or may not be due to selection bias.

I'd like to see some real data.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 28 August 2009 - 12:06 AM.

[VidX]

Ass To The Grass or it's not squatting sir. Believe me - it may be uncomfortable and unusual at first, but when you get it going - it's one of the best exercises out there. Just be sure to read at least 3 different articles about proper squatting and pay attention to the details as the bar position on traps, stretching, hands position, head position, weight center control on your heels, etc..

[eternaltraveler]

Ass To The Grass or it's not squatting sir. Believe me - it may be uncomfortable and unusual at first, but when you get it going - it's one of the best exercises out there. Just be sure to read at least 3 different articles about proper squatting and pay attention to the details as the bar position on traps, stretching, hands position, head position, weight center control on your heels, etc..

do you have data on the safety and effectiveness of this technique?

[RighteousReason]

Box squats + power cleans. Ah, yeah. That'll do it

Actually what I was doing was doing some kind of clean and jerk. I have no idea. Took something really heavy off the floor and put it over my head really fast

Edited by RighteousReason, 28 August 2009 - 04:07 AM.

[rephore]

Ass to grass is the way to go. All the way down until your calves touch your butt. If you can't do that, then start with the bar. If you can't even do that, then do body weight squats all the way down. Then progress with the bar. Then add weight.

Here's the data that says deep squats are just as safe as above parallel:
http://www.tmuscle.c...g_myths_exposed

[VidX]

do you have data on the safety and effectiveness of this technique?

Yep, just do a quick search on google, plenty of articles discussing this matter. BTW - that's the most natura; position for a human, look at babies - how they pick something up from the ground. Just we loose flexibility with age so it gets harder (but u can stretch in a matter of a month and squat deep with ease). And that's what an olympic athletes does, according to one study I can't remember at the moment - their knees are healthier then average joes who hasn't touched a barbell in his life. Keep in mind - most of them goes for strenght, that adds up the stress, as in multiple reps you need a lower weight, etc...

And actually the good way to damage your knees are these quarter squats, believe me, I almost did that at one point. When started deep (PROPER technique) squats - no pains or discomfort in knees, nor doing them, nor after. Generally - it's a different level of squatting, a much better one. Don't let your ego to stand in your way, if the lower weight may seem a "problem". I used to "squat" 400lb, after adjusting to proper form - 220is plenty at the moment.

Edited by VidX, 28 August 2009 - 11:15 AM.

[Ben]

Ass to grass is the way to go. All the way down until your calves touch your butt. If you can't do that, then start with the bar. If you can't even do that, then do body weight squats all the way down. Then progress with the bar. Then add weight.

Here's the data that says deep squats are just as safe as above parallel:
http://www.tmuscle.c...g_myths_exposed

Sadly the author cites no sources :(


So.. I went and did some searching myself:

"Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100° knee flexion. Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee."

http://journals.lww....p;type=abstract

"We conclude that knee joint load can be limited by doing parallel instead of deep squats and that this will not decrease quadriceps muscle activity. To limit hip moment, the squat should not be deeper than 90°."

http://linkinghub.el...268003301000171

This all supports what Rippetoe says about getting parallel.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 28 August 2009 - 11:45 AM.

[Shepard]

The NSCA's position on the squat: http://www.nsca-lift...s/SQTforWeb.pdf

Now, I don't think this means much as I don't think much of the NSCA. These are the same people that published a paper saying the hamstrings aren't activated in a squat. And there is one of the huge flaws in exercise research, there are so many different positions one can get into with a barbell, exercises are nothing but categorizations and not descriptions of a specific movement across a population.

As far as an Olympic vs. hip-dominant squat, I think it's obvious which ones puts more stress across the knee joint. Your squatting volume will determine which should be done long-term. I have to use the Olympic squat for my sport, but I probably wouldn't if I were just looking for general strength. At the tail end of a squat cycle, doing 5x10 three times per week or 6x6 @ 80%, the knees get pretty rough-feeling.

[Logan]

Ass to grass is the way to go. All the way down until your calves touch your butt. If you can't do that, then start with the bar. If you can't even do that, then do body weight squats all the way down. Then progress with the bar. Then add weight.

Here's the data that says deep squats are just as safe as above parallel:
http://www.tmuscle.c...g_myths_exposed

You're kidding right?

[Logan]

Ass to grass is the way to go. All the way down until your calves touch your butt. If you can't do that, then start with the bar. If you can't even do that, then do body weight squats all the way down. Then progress with the bar. Then add weight.

Here's the data that says deep squats are just as safe as above parallel:
http://www.tmuscle.c...g_myths_exposed

Sadly the author cites no sources :(


So.. I went and did some searching myself:

"Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100° knee flexion. Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee."

http://journals.lww....p;type=abstract

"We conclude that knee joint load can be limited by doing parallel instead of deep squats and that this will not decrease quadriceps muscle activity. To limit hip moment, the squat should not be deeper than 90°."

http://linkinghub.el...268003301000171

This all supports what Rippetoe says about getting parallel.

You don't have to touch your calves to your buttocks to get properly parrallel. A good squat is very simple. Back straight, pelvis in, weight on heels, feet slightly turned outward, knees shoulder width or a little more apart, and squat down to ninety degrees.

I suggest trying lunges as they are a nice alternative to squats. You can do squats one week and lunges the next. This way you keep your muscle guessing and get the most out of your workouts.

Edited by morganator, 28 August 2009 - 12:29 PM.

[RighteousReason]

I am feeling pretty sore from the box squats in my quads and glutes

[Shepard]

Box squats + power cleans. Ah, yeah. That'll do it

Actually what I was doing was doing some kind of clean and jerk. I have no idea. Took something really heavy off the floor and put it over my head really fast

Power Clean: http://www.performan.../powerClean.mov
Clean & Jerk: http://www.performan...leanAndJerk.mov

Or were you doing some sort of snatch?

Power Snatch: http://www.performan...powerSnatch.mov
Snatch: http://www.performan...deos/snatch.mov

[RighteousReason]

Box squats + power cleans. Ah, yeah. That'll do it

Actually what I was doing was doing some kind of clean and jerk. I have no idea. Took something really heavy off the floor and put it over my head really fast

Power Clean: http://www.performan.../powerClean.mov
Clean & Jerk: http://www.performan...leanAndJerk.mov

Or were you doing some sort of snatch?

Power Snatch: http://www.performan...powerSnatch.mov
Snatch: http://www.performan...deos/snatch.mov

It most closely resembled the power snatch, although it was a little clean-and-jerky. thanks for the videos.

All I have to say is, it was an awesome work out session. I've never done any kind of power lifting other than squats, and I'm new to those. This stuff is amazing though, it just makes you feel awesome. I'm definitely making this kind of power lifting a staple in my work out regimen.

Edited by RighteousReason, 28 August 2009 - 04:52 PM.

[VidX]

So.. I went and did some searching myself:

"Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100° knee flexion. Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee."
http://journals.lww....p;type=abstract

"We conclude that knee joint load can be limited by doing parallel instead of deep squats and that this will not decrease quadriceps muscle activity. To limit hip moment, the squat should not be deeper than 90°."
http://linkinghub.el...268003301000171

This all supports what Rippetoe says about getting parallel.

Well good luck to them in developing a good quads by parallel (as it supposedly "does not decrease quadriceps activity"). The actual feeling is a day and night, the pump, etc... And you actually keep your knee joint in permanent tension with parallel/above parallel, though when u go deep - the dynamics changes, but u must be sure not to "rest" on your hams when down. Keep the steady control all the way down and then explode at the bottom from your heels, glutes.


Training for strenght with just parallel is a nonsense, unless u incorporate them here and there, or something like one leg squats, etc.. Anybody who'd feel strong on parallel squats would get smashed by somebody who goes all the way down, as powerlifters do in competitions.

Not goind deep on squats is the same as working your chest in the upper quarter of rom. U just wont "fire off" all the fibers no matter what..

Did some squats today actually. 220lbx10 x 4, all the way down. Then jumped on leg press 600lbx8 x3. feels awesome. Quarter squats I did a few years ago looks like a joke now.

Edited by VidX, 28 August 2009 - 11:01 PM.

[Shepard]

Which powerlifters are you talking about that go all the way down? There are many federations, with different rules and equipment. The biggest squats can only be considered parallel if you're looking at them while drunk, laying on your side.

Only the IPF really goes below parallel consistently, and those guys still don't do anything like an Olympic squat.

But, strong men around the world have big thighs, whether they squat high or low.

Edited by Shepard, 28 August 2009 - 11:43 PM.

[RighteousReason]

Actually the box squats hit my glutes a lot harder than deep squats did, maybe only a little less intense on the thighs.

[VidX]

But, strong men around the world have big thighs, whether they squat high or low.

I've been training with various "caliber" of them (no international stars) for almost 10 years. And if I've saw guys with big quads doing quarter squats, it was mainly from drugs. They'd fail very bad at strenght on proper squat. Though anybody who has/had an impressive quads AND strenght - goes below parralel hands down. I'd put this simple - if u r lucky and have plenty of drugs on hands - you may avoid the need (though it's a pure pleasure when u get the form down) to squat deep, otherwise - u'll need a lot of luck.. Not to mention that good squat involves most of the muscles in your body, no other exercise gives this all over workout. Overall you can grow your quads with partial squats, that's for sure, load a lot of weight (as you'll be able to "lift" a lot more to compensate for the lack of depth, what ironically just adds to the stress on the knees and spine) and that's it. But if some guy next to you with a similar potential will go deep - you'll see a difference pretty soon, believe me.

And the actual movement of squat is very natural position to humans. 



RighteousReason>Can't disagree/agree as I haven't tried. I try to keep everything as simple as possible. 

 


p.s. - oh, btw -

Edited by VidX, 29 August 2009 - 12:40 AM.

[Shepard]

People use quarter squats for various reasons, mostly just to get used to heavy weight. No exercise is inherently good or bad, just depends how it's programmed into an overall scheme. I suppose we use what some would consider quarter squats from time to time to work on the drive for the jerk. Useful exercise.

Can you explain the difference you're talking about? If I'm training an athlete in a contact sport, I'd rather him be explosive off a box 2" above parallel with 545lbs. than do an Olympic squat with 365.

[VidX]

Well as I'm a bodybuilder I tend to look at "difference" from this perspective. And I agree that quarter squats, or one legged squats can be used from time to time with various golas in mind as there are techniques to increase your strenght with these and the get back to a "normal" one. I can't really tell what's better - higher weight box, or lower deep ones, I'd need to do some thinking on this in terms of slow twich, fast twich fibers, general way of how strenght works in explosive movements, etc.. but I'm too tired at the moment. Anyway I'd guess box squats can be a good thing for the reason u mentioned.

[rephore]

I injured my back and won't be able to squat for a while. At least I'll see if machines will still be able to help me pack on muscle.

[immortali457]

Ah good ole box squats. Takes me back to the early/mid 80's. At a bodyweight of 168, I box squatted 585lbs for 2 reps.
Just above parallel.

[nowayout]

Deep squats (for that matter any squats, but especially deep squats and box squats) are dangerous to the spine if there is any spine flexion. They are great recipes for disc herniation. Experts know how to avoid flexion, of course, but the average gymgoer going deep or on the box for the first time usually does not. McGill's back fitness books should be required reading for anyone before embarking on squats.

I speak from experience. I herniated two discs from box squatting.

As for snatches, according to McGill, only a limited set of preselected athletes should even be doing snatches at all. They are not for everyone.

[immortali457]

Deep squats (for that matter any squats, but especially deep squats and box squats) are dangerous to the spine if there is any spine flexion. They are great recipes for disc herniation. Experts know how to avoid flexion, of course, but the average gymgoer going deep or on the box for the first time usually does not. McGill's back fitness books should be required reading for anyone before embarking on squats.

I speak from experience. I herniated two discs from box squatting.

As for snatches, according to McGill, only a limited set of preselected athletes should even be doing snatches at all. They are not for everyone.

Good point. Years after school, I often thought of how much better a couple of power racks would have been at school compared to the boxes.

[VidX]

Deep squats (for that matter any squats, but especially deep squats and box squats) are dangerous to the spine if there is any spine flexion. They are great recipes for disc herniation. Experts know how to avoid flexion, of course, but the average gymgoer going deep or on the box for the first time usually does not. McGill's back fitness books should be required reading for anyone before embarking on squats.

True. There's a very precise from u must learn to squat properly. If you learn it - the risk is minimal. It's important to train spine erectors and abdominals for additional spine support too.

[Shepard]

Sure, just like people should learn to use a fork and chew before attempting to eat a meal.

[the_eternal]

Deep squats are necessary for strength development. Most personal trainers in Australia are taught bodybuilding techniques and the above parallel squat almost entirely focuses on the quads, what most bodybuilders aim to train when squatting. As previously stated you can move a lot more weight with a 1/4 or 1/2 squat which is why you'll often people doing those rather than full depth. So if your goal is strength you should really be going parallel or below, you'll know how deep since your stretch reflex from your hammies will stop you, higher squats should be used to train sticking points or sparingly to train the quads. I personally feel a front or zercher squat or lunges are better for training the quads, no real evidence for that though stopping high just feels awkward to me after time spent going below parallel.