78 replies to this topic

[health_nutty]

I really like trap bar deadlifts:

http://www.exrx.net/...TBDeadlift.html

[TianZi]

Just to stir the pot some, I thought I'd link Mike Boyle's recent article and video, "Death of the Squat". Boyle's position is that the conventional back squat has an unfavorable risk/reward ratio for any athlete (other than a power lifter, obviously), and that it more a lower back exercise than a leg exercise.


http://www.functiona...com/squats.html

[Shepard]

All depends on how you squat, and the weak link in the kinetic chain. Generally, most people that use the barbell movements as purely S&C for another sport don't spend the time to become proficient at them.

I do think Boyle's stance may be influenced by the amount of attention it would receive, and he has gotten a lot from it. I don't think he's entirely incorrect, it all depends on the athlete and the sport.

[immortali457]

Just to stir the pot some, I thought I'd link Mike Boyle's recent article and video, "Death of the Squat". Boyle's position is that the conventional back squat has an unfavorable risk/reward ratio for any athlete (other than a power lifter, obviously), and that it more a lower back exercise than a leg exercise.


http://www.functiona...com/squats.html

Thanks for posting this. I've done conventional squats for over 30 years and only recently have I been doing 1-legged movements.
I'm going to do some rear-foot-elevated split squats today.

http://www.tmuscle.c...e..._a_time&cr=

[VidX]

Doing quarter squats to me feels like I'd pull myself just 1/4 or 2/4 of the way when doing pull ups..

[Shepard]

I'm going to do some rear-foot-elevated split squats today.

If you have the mobility, put the rear foot on a bench, elevate the front foot to a similar height on a stack of plates, and rack the bar in the front squat position. It's a very brutal and effective assistance movement.

[immortali457]

I'm going to do some rear-foot-elevated split squats today.

If you have the mobility, put the rear foot on a bench, elevate the front foot to a similar height on a stack of plates, and rack the bar in the front squat position. It's a very brutal and effective assistance movement.

Lil too brutal for me at the moment...lol
Stack of plates??? What if they plates slip???

[immortali457]

I'm going to do some rear-foot-elevated split squats today.

If you have the mobility, put the rear foot on a bench, elevate the front foot to a similar height on a stack of plates, and rack the bar in the front squat position. It's a very brutal and effective assistance movement.

Lil too brutal for me at the moment...lol
Stack of plates??? What if they plates slip???

[nowayout]

Quoting the famous Stuart McGill:

Very few people in North America can perform squats and power cleans with form that minimizes risk and enables superior performance. The Eastern Europeans are technical masters; young Eastern European athletes spend years developing the form by lifting broomsticks. Only when the form is perfect is strength and weight increased. [...] It is interesting to see the emphasis placed on grooving the correct motion and motor patterns long before substantial weight is attempted. Generally, preserving the neutral lumbar spine will solve many of the safety issues, but this depends on the ability to take the shoulders and hips to extremes in the range of motion.

The instructions from our perspective are very simple: If a perfect starting position cannot be obtained, then other means are needed. Many great athletes cannot do these lifts.

Many athletes do not have the hip structure to begin the pull with the necessary hip flexion required to have a neutral spin at the beginning of the pull.

In the former Soviet system, athletes were very carefully selected for the Olympic lifts based on their body segment proportions, natural speed and flexibility. Very few North American men possess these attributes to even obtain the initial "set" at the beginning of the lift where the bar is pulled, to minimize back loading for safety. Further, very few can withstand the cumulative toll on the body of this very demanding event to survive for the necessary amount of time.

Our data showed [...] that [better lifters] were able to obtain a body posture that spared their joints but the posture demands joint positions that are at the extreme range of the population continuum.

... a qualification procedure is absolutely necessary to identify those athletes who are candidates for low risk training, and to restrict those who do not possess the hip, knee and ankle flexibility to perform the lifts with impeccable technique.

Edited by viveutvivas, 24 December 2009 - 09:23 PM.

[Shepard]

Lil too brutal for me at the moment...lol
Stack of plates??? What if they plates slip???

Dunno, I've never had issues with plates slipping, but I use bumper plates.

Reminds me of a Dave Tate video...when asked how do you avoid injury if you fail on a box squat attempt, he answered, "Don't fail on a box squat." Smart man.

Edited by Shepard, 24 December 2009 - 09:55 PM.

[immortali457]

Just got through doing them. Brutal. Did only 1 set so I could walk tomorrow. Used a weight a 10 YO girl might laugh at.

[TianZi]

"Necessary" for what? Unilateral exercises are better for functional strength than the classic squat. And how the risk/reward ratio pans out in terms of whether or not doing squats is worth it for you depends in turn on your personal strength training goals.

If play pro football (or perhaps are a sumo wrestler), you will probably benefit from squats (although even then the risk/reward ratio may favor the front squat rather than the back squat).

If you are a pro tennis player, probably not, and the risk of injury probably outweighs any potential benefit.

If you are a bodybuilder, it's a great exercise to try, but if necessary you probably can find alternative exercises to achieve about the same effect if the strain on back or knee is too great. And don't believe anyone who tells you that squats, if performed perfectly, are perfectly safe for everyone--they aren't. This is why the traditional back squat is being phased out of the typical training regimen for most NBA players.

[TianZi]

"... If you play..."

Typo.

[hypnotoad]

IMO If you're not built for squats, don't worry to much - leg presses and hack squats are fine. Some guys take to squats like fish to water, other guys seem to find them awkward and more trouble than they are worth no matter how much they focus on technique.

I think if you are cross-training for certain sports, lighter squats would be very useful, but if you training them for size, presses and hacks work very very well. Dorian Yates never did any squatting during his pro career and he seemed to keep up in the leg dept with other pros who did. I'm pretty sure Paul Dillet never did heavy squats either, although he is a freak of nature so that probably doesn't count..

Edited by hypnotoad, 25 March 2010 - 03:04 PM.

[thevaughny]

If you watch Rippetoe's Starting Strength video, he will get onto some of the lifters' form for going too low. I haven't watched it in a while but I believe the guidance was: don't squat so low at the expense of losing the lower back and hip tightness. Something like that. I will try to take another look but I think he is definitely for a full ROM to at least parallel but stopped short of ATG if it can't be done while keeping the back tight.

[zorba990]

Anyone else having an issue with the reply button? Doesn't seem to put a cursor in the box.

Ah well, IMHO full parallel is better than ATG or partials. ATG might work but to get in to that position
most males will have to round the lower back which I think is more risky when rising with the weight. I go as low
as I can with keeping lower back and hips properly rotated which incidentally is top of the legs parallel to the
ground for me. After I finish my sets I 'sit' in full squat with my ass nearly on the floor and my lower back
rounded for about a minute. My reasoning for doing this is that at the end of sets the lower vertebre may
be slightly compressed. To pull them apart and allow full flexibility there I sit on my heels.

I could go 400 with partials but only about 235 this way.

[Shepard]

Rippetoe's stance is that you should not sacrifice hamstring tightness for the sake of depth, but there is no reason that anyone shouldn't be able to get to parallel or 2" or so below after working on it. At that point, don't sacrifice weight for depth once you're getting a couple inches below parallel.

[rephore]

Went to the gym today for the first time in a while. I was thinking about doing squats but thought to myself that it's too painful and tiring. I've lost 80% of my tear drop from not squatting. But girls don't really look at that anyway...

I guess deep squats are NOT necessary. (I've ass to grassed for years)

Edited by rephore, 13 May 2010 - 08:42 AM.

[ken_akiba]

I'm surprised there still are personal trainers demanding deep squats. Never do it.

Edited by ken_akiba, 13 May 2010 - 04:17 PM.

[gregandbeaker]

A guy I was talking to at the gym suggesting putting a bench in the rack with me and squatting until my ass just touches it. Its just a bit below parallel for me. It really helped me get comfortable going to the right position each time without worrying about form and the heavy weight on my shoulders each time. I never have any knee or hip pain so I think squats are fine for my body type. I routinely see guys practically touching their asses to the ground--rounding their lower back, and twisting their knees in the process. I think THAT is dangerous.

Zorba990's idea about sitting in a traditional squat after worksets really feels good. Thanks for the tip!

[Shepard]

Mendes squats deep. You should, too.

[ajnast4r]

Mendes squats deep. You should, too.

good lord that guy is a beast

[goatz]

A guy I was talking to at the gym suggesting putting a bench in the rack with me and squatting until my ass just touches it. Its just a bit below parallel for me. It really helped me get comfortable going to the right position each time without worrying about form and the heavy weight on my shoulders each time. I never have any knee or hip pain so I think squats are fine for my body type. I routinely see guys practically touching their asses to the ground--rounding their lower back, and twisting their knees in the process. I think THAT is dangerous.

Zorba990's idea about sitting in a traditional squat after worksets really feels good. Thanks for the tip!

agreed, flexibility/mobility is a huge factor here. If they cannot be done correctly, deep squats can be extremely bad. Also bear in mind that it only takes roughly an inch below parallel to engage the hamstrings. No need for true ATG.

Once flexibility/mobility/technique is correct, deep squats will help maintain flexibility too, and also translate to functional strength rather than just strength in the gym.

I would recommend a stretching routine of :
pre workout
dynamic rotational squat dynamic stretches
dynamic lateral squat dynamic stretches
leg swings
side to side leg swings

some dynamic ankle mobility drills

glute activation (i.e. clams, supine bridges, etc)

post workout
bulgarian squat stretch
seated 90/90 stretch
any static hamstring stretch (needed from personal experience of a popliteal injury)


Oh, and ditch the trainers. Go for some chuck taylors or Oly shoes for extra stablilty. The heel on the Oly shoes can also help achieve depth when flexilibity is an issue (I beleive Mendes in the above link is wearing Adidas Ironworks)
G

Edited by goatz, 18 May 2010 - 11:52 PM.

[gregandbeaker]

Mendes squats deep. You should, too.

Wow. The bar looks like its made out of balsa wood with all of that weight on it! Looks like its full too. He's gonna have to start paying people to hang on the ends of the bar to add more weight

[rephore]

Mendes squats deep. You should, too.

I started deep squats today again, haven't done them in about six months. I've been having difficulty gaining weight that I have lost. We'll see if squats can help.

[yoyo]

WHAT vidx said.

Although since my thighs and ass are already too big for most trousers, i just get a leg workout with sprints on hills.

[gregandbeaker]

Mendes squats deep. You should, too.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-6mRbQG-PL4

Update on Mendes: He's up to 800lbs now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7m6I5m6gY&

[RighteousReason]

Mendes squats deep. You should, too.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-6mRbQG-PL4

Update on Mendes: He's up to 800lbs now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7m6I5m6gY&

Dude I've seen this video a few times now. Didn't know it was Mendes.

Just did some deep squats today. New PR. feelsgoodman.jpg :D

[Solarclimax]

Haven't read this thread.. Mainly because i don't need to. It's simple, if you squat to parallel with heavy weight you're gonna f your knees up. When you squat below parallel, IE ass to floor the weight transfers from the knees to the hip flexors. That's a fact. You don't want to be still with heavy weight loaded on your knees for more than a split second if you can help it. And Rippetoe definitely knows what he's talking about when it comes to these kinds of things, more than anyone in this thread by a long shot.

Edited by Solarclimax, 28 September 2010 - 05:52 PM.

[Shepard]

If you compete in a sport for long enough, or even lift weights heavy enough for long enough, you're going to need surgery at some point. It's an unavoidable consequence of striving for excellence.