570 replies to this topic

[geigertube]

Nootropi,

What do you get from them? They seem pretty pricey on most stuff.

Steven

[nootropi]

Nootropi,

What do you get from them? They seem pretty pricey on most stuff.

Steven

Who do you refer to? SHF? SHF, please note, has many products USP made in the USA. I would happily pay twice the price for a USP product than buy something that came from China and is likely to contain deadly levels of contaminants. And if you go to, say, 1fast400, that is exactly what you get: a Chinese, low quality import likely with contaminants; 1fast400 does not permit his customers to run quality control tests on his products, so I do not buy from him as a result. I am going to be running several assays this month of products sold at smi2le.biz. Smi2le.biz also imports several products from China; happily, he lets me run quality control tests on his products in exchange for store credit I will gladly share the results with the members of this forum.

Here are some earlier results of Rizzer's products:





I just got quote from Analytical Labs in Anaheim: they want $1475 to run 7 tests on

L-carnosine
Piracetam
Oxiracetam
Aniracetam
Acetyl-l-cartinine
Pyritinol
L-Theanine

I am going to probably stick with IBC; simply because they have better prices and are the most reputable third party lab in the country, hands down.

[ozone]

If you want to have Rizzer cap them for you, he uses the ProFill Capsule Filling Machine; that could be affordable.

But is not... It's interesting you mention that; I have a Size 1 cap filler, but still that's pretty large (250-500mg). There is NO (zero, zilch, nada, none) size 4 filler under $800 (that's the price of the ProFill). Seriously... you'd think someone would have made one already. I mean, with all the "small dose" items out there, how come we don't have a cap filler that can handle sizes UNDER 1, that are on the cheap?

I smell a potential market for a product (time to put the engineering + patent skills to work) [thumb]

OH, by the way guys. I ordered from the Rizza on Dec 6th, and I got it today. Just a FYI though, Idebenone is outta stock (it will ship when he gets it) but I got my other stuff today (Piracetam, AGPC, KRALA, ALCAR).

[nootropi]

Nope, I just think some of you cause too much labor cost for the small profit he may earn from your business. In other words, if you are a $30.00 customer, expect be to treated as so.

I don’t know that I agree with that Nootropi, My order was for over 200 (although the current claim is that it wasn’t received), not a large order but for a first order that should have got some attention. But seriously Nootropi, if I ordered just 30 dollars worth, I would expect that order to be treated with the same attention as a 200 dollar order. I would have placed a larger order, but I was concerned about getting it.

You might as well shop somewhere else if you intend to spend so little at smi2le.biz. He is more aimed at the "hard core/cutting edge" life extensionist/nootropic user.
You can't expect him to stay in business if everybody he dealt with only purchases a $30 item and requires so much attention to be satisfied (as many of the complaints are generated and posted here by customers placing such trivial orders); personally, I spend over $3,000 a year on life extension/nootropic supplements. I spend at least 1/2 of that sum at smi2le.biz because he treats me with the repect that I demand from my supplier.

I budget about 10 grand a year, with Life Extension Foundation taking about 90% of that. I’m sure that’s trivial to Life Extension, I doubt they would miss my order, yet if I order one item, it gets here just as fast as when I order a box of them. With the added nootropics, that budget will swell this year with an adding a few thousand dollars to that budget at least. Smile could have gotten a piece of that action, and also, because I love a good deal, I would have explored the whole loan thing with him. Extremely high interest rates, free smart drugs, discount items, that would have been nice.
http://www.smi2le.biz/bulkinvest.shtml

Sorry to be so rude, but you have to realize that a vendor has the right to refuse business to any individual.

Nootropi, I fully agree with you on that. I just don’t think a vendor has the right to hold someone’s money if they are not going to business with someone. Some people here need to be made whole again.

Firstimmortal:

We have spoken on the telephone already; give me a call, we will place a confrence call to Rizzer, on my bill (as you seem to be concerned about this cost; which I consider to be a trivial cost in my budget); I will make sure you get your order.

Take care.

[todd_lee]

1FAST400, can you put the COA up for aniracetam?

[stellar]

Why the hell would 1FAST400 and I be online at the same time?  Obviously we are not the same person.

Okay, I have edited my posts according to this new data. I just do hope that you other members see that nootropic stole my avatar and went ahead with a line of questioning that was only directed at 1fast400 and this member had never contributed anything else to the discussion here.

Wow, nootropi. I'm reading through this whole thread again, and it looks as though Nootropic isn't using your avatar anymore. It's quite interesting, how all of these new "posters" started joining on this thread, and never were heard from again, ie todd lee (who i challenged), nootropic, and so on. 1FAST400 says to "check the ip" as if that's some sort of solid proof. all anyone needs is an anonymizer, they're easy to find...and it changes your IP.

after what i witnessed in this threadregarding his need to advance a lie about rizzer, and use you as an excuse to do so.....i fully believe based on what i've read that "todd lee" and "nootropic" were 1FAST400.

[stellar]

1FAST400, can you put the COA up for aniracetam?

LOL!!!!! Hey there 1FAST400, how's it going?

[stellar]

For anybody who is concerned with the matter of SMI2LE's 'raid', I am currently acquiring evidence of the event.  I've been in touch w/ a DEA field office agent out of Atlantic City who says he recalls some smi2le investigation(s).  He suggested that, to his knowledge, smi2le had been cleared and was a legitimate business to purchase from, that any unfulfilled orders should be handled through merchant arbitration procedures (ie credit card companies).

He said he'd be emailing me in the next day or two after he gets in touch with people at the Camden office to confirm the investigation, but thinks it had to do specifically with one of smi2le's customers and the acquisition of information on the third party.  *shrug*  Hopefully an edited email will qualify as acceptable evidence.

This is absolutely incredible. Hyoomen, I hope we hear a report back from you as soon as you know.

I would like to now introduce to you the "respectable" behavior of 1FAST400 (Rizzers direct competitor).
11 posts of his in this thread were direct questions regarding the DEA raid, that it never happened, that Rizzer is a liar liar liar, and on and on and on. No one made a very big deal out of it but me. Like I said before, regardless of whether Rizzer goes down or not I will never, ever purchase anything from 1FAST400 because of the crap he pulled in this thread.


1FAST400 at his finest hour:

1fast400
Posted: Nov 20, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55

Does anyone have proof that the DEA deal even happened?



1fast400
Posted: Nov 22, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55
I'll ask again. Does anyone have proof the DEA did anything to this guy? I would assume there would be public record info if they actually did anything to him. Did the information about the DEA thing come straight from him or did someone have proof?




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1fast400
Posted: Nov 23, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55
Chain of custody is something nootropi doesn't understand. I've tried to explain it to him 100x.

I ask the DEA question simply because that is the sole reason people are told his business is backed up and not shipping. Anything I do is asked to be backed up with triple lawyer certification, yet this guy claims (or someone did) that he got raided by the DEA and everyone believes him. The odds the DEA would raid him seem very far fetched. I've had the DEA on site at my place before. I know what it is like to deal with them. I was just curious if anyone had any proof or if everyone believed him just "because".
------

1fast400
Posted: Nov 23, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55
I just find it funny that people bust my balls on my products yet nobody seems to question rizzer. Anyone find it odd that nootropi is the only one that has really tested anything? He is also the one that defends rizzer to such an extreme that it turns people off? What about the DEA, we have some proof it never happened? I have COA's of all my products. You guys just make me laugh sometimes.

---

1fast400
Posted: Nov 24, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55




You do realize this thread started with "another smi2le.biz horror story". Meaning there was another thread that started out as an original. People just want their stuff delivered, rizzer seems to have a problem with that. He has lied about the DEA raiding his place. The DEA doesn't even know who he is. Who is the liar again?
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1fast400
Posted: Nov 28, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55
It still hasn't been proven the DEA even showed up. If anything, the DEA website said he hasn't had anything done to him. I don't need to discredit him, seems he does a good enough job himself. Look through previous post of mine on Avant and elsewhere, I've never attacked Rizzer, just nootropi for telling lies. This DEA deal finally started sounding way to fishy. Everyone seems to trust he is telling the truth on this, yet there is no proof. Hmmmmmm

As far as envy, that is quite funny.

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1fast400
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55



QUOTE
So if he didn't need to be discredited, then why did you go on to say that you believe the DEA raid was ficticious?QUOTE


There is no proof it happened. If he woudl lie about something like this, then it would speak volumes about his character.

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1fast400
Posted: Dec 7, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55
The DEA deal never happened. It isn't listed on any DEA sanctioned site. It was a story.

----

1fast400
Posted: Dec 7, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55

QUOTE
Please elaborate, I am not sure I understand. Should it be on a sanctioned site? Perhaps DEAbusts.com? Oh perhaps that URL is not sanctioned?QUOTE


As mentioned, a member already did a search within the DEA and found nothing involving him or his operation.

QUOTE
OK, I am not saying you are wrong...Perhaps you are right. But please if you are going to make a claim like that back it up with facts. That is a really serious accusation.QUOTE


The irony that people believe him about the DEA thing is shocking. He has ZERO proof it happened, just his word. Everyone will believe that, because he posted it on his site. Yet he seems to lie to his customers about sending orders. All that can be done to prove nothing happened is to simply look at the DEA site.

The DEA thing sure does make a good excuse not to send orders.
-----------------
1fast400
Posted: Dec 8, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55

QUOTE
Once again, another baseless accusation from a direct competitor of Rizzer.QUOTE


How is it baseless? You got anything showing this happened? You guys put your full trust into this guy. He post no COA's of his materials, you just take his word. You take his word he is going to ship products. You take his word that the DEA deal happened, yet there is no proof of it. If he lied about the DEA deal would you still trust this guy? If trust is such a huge part of all this I think I would want to know.


QUOTE
A DEA raid is likely, given that which Rizzer sells. Trying to prove that the raid didn't happen by pointing out that it wasnt "listed" on the DEA website is laughable.QUOTE


Then show 1 thing that shows the DEA deal happened. You just believe it because he said so? What does he have that the DEA would be interested in? I have more experience with the DEA than anyone on this board. I can't wait for you to defend this one.



-----------------------

1fast400
Posted: Dec 8, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55

QUOTE
It is baseless because you have no proof!QUOTE


Um, how would you expect me to prove he WASN'T raided? There is no proof he WAS raided, hence the proof he WASN'T. Simple concept.

QUOTE
A DEA website is your "proof"? Again, laughable...and flimsy.
Again, a DEA raid is likely, given that which Rizzer sells. Rizzer has a small operation.QUOTE


Don't you think I would have been raided way before rizzer. I've been doing it for over 2 years to his few months. Also, where is the proof he was raided. Oh wait, he said he was, that's right.



QUOTE
I certainly don't trust a businessman who goes around internet messageboards to discredit a direct competitor.
Trust is a big issue. However, I don't appreciate direct competitors attempting to diminish trust in Rizzer by going around and repeating baseless charges.QUOTE


I understand that you would much rather support someone who doesn't answer emails or phone calls. Lies in his advertising of products. Lies about his DEA deal. I totally see why you would trust him.

-------------------------------------------

[nootropi]

You are really really funny stellar.

I don't know about COA's of Aniracetam meaning anything whatsoever about a product that may be available at 1fast400. All that means is that the Chinese seller who sold that powder printed out some form that said something that may or may not be true about that powder. In a perfect world the powder would be safe. In the real world, the powder that is at 1fast400 may be deadly. So watch out. If you can't test it, that is, if the seller won't grant you credit for the test, then don't buy it if you are the least bit concerned for your livelyhood. That is my advise at least.

The only important, relevant data is independent results from a third party testing labratory conducted by an individual not affiliated with the respective vendor. That is why I am conducting these tests; to verify that the products that I am purchasing are not only safe, but effective and what they are advertised as being.

[Mike M]

I'll speak to dsade2 tomorrow about the COA you requested.

Stellar, I think most could make a case that you are nootropi figuring you only defend him and rizzer. You also seem to post either right after me or nootropi as well.

You should ask RTP Labs in Raleigh, NC about Rizzer's stuff. He would give you the results, but Rizzer never sent the products. Maybe he knew the lab was going to test it?

[thefirstimmortal]

You are trusting this guy to sit with a cap-em quick and make your products?  Just think about that for a second.

No, I'm asking you if you can cap em' and charge me extra.

[thefirstimmortal]

thefirstimmortal,

There are reasons to be concerned about the safety of taking Idebenone at all.  I'm afraid I've forgotten the molecular details but it was discussed in previous posts.

I'll cross it off the list, thanks

[nootropi]

You are trusting this guy to sit with a cap-em quick and make your products?  Just think about that for a second.

No, I'm asking you if you can cap em' and charge me extra.

Most companies use the same tools Rizzer does to cap his products. So I have no idea what 1fast400 is trying to convey.

[nootropi]

thefirstimmortal,

There are reasons to be concerned about the safety of taking Idebenone at all.  I'm afraid I've forgotten the molecular details but it was discussed in previous posts.

I'll cross it off the list, thanks

No, you can take idebenone, in low doses safely.

[thefirstimmortal]

Firstimmortal:

We have spoken on the telephone already; give me a call, we will place a confrence call to Rizzer, on my bill (as you seem to be concerned about this cost; which I consider to be a trivial cost in my budget); I will make sure you get your order.

Take care.

Tell ya what, let's hang back and make sure nothing shows up on my credit card first. If no billing, then I'll consider that something went wrong with the order not getting there. As for the call, it's not the price of the call that get's me, it's the time that get's under my skin. And the notion that I have to chase my stuff. But again, if no billing happened, than I'll give Rizzer the benefit of the doubt, and we'll take it from there.

...to be continued

[nootropi]

Firstimmortal:

We have spoken on the telephone already; give me a call, we will place a confrence call to Rizzer, on my bill (as you seem to be concerned about this cost; which I consider to be a trivial cost in my budget); I will make sure you get your order.

Take care.

Tell ya what, let's hang back and make sure nothing shows up on my credit card first. If no billing, then I'll consider that something went wrong with the order not getting there. As for the call, it's not the price of the call that get's me, it's the time that get's under my skin. And the notion that I have to chase my stuff. But again, if no billing happened, than I'll give Rizzer the benefit of the doubt, and we'll take it from there.

...to be continued

No offense to you, firstimmortal, but we could have already resolved this issue had you called me. You will spend more time posting here about it, that's for sure.

[thefirstimmortal]

If you are too busy to do all of the capping, you will not be able to afford the effective nootropics, no matter where you go.

I suggest that you learn as soon as possible this crucial, yet simple skill.  It is really very simple and requires little skill to learn.  If you want to have Rizzer cap them for you, he uses the ProFill Capsule Filling Machine; that could be affordable.

Ahhh, I dunno Nootropi, that looks like work, can't I just throw money at the problem? I like problems that I can solve with my wallet.

[stellar]

Stellar, I think most could make a case that you are nootropi figuring you only defend him and rizzer.  You also seem to post either right after me or nootropi as well. 

Nice try to dodge the issue. Do not fret, the issue is not going away anytime soon (probably ever?).

We have evidence from a poster on this site. He took the time out to call the DEA just to settle this.
But......I didn't see an apology from you anywhere?
You promised twice.

-----


1fast400
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55

QUOTEI'm sure if he offered up some proof, you would still find a way to criticize him. It seems like he's back up to speed, we'll know more in the coming months.QUOTE


Not at all, I would GLADLY retract any/all statements in regard to this.
----

1fast400
Posted: Dec 9, 2004 | link


Group: Basic Member
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Posts: 55
Credible real proof he was raided or not. Just willing to show people I'll put my money where my mouth is.

I will gladly make a public apology and retraction of statements if it is proven he was raided.

------------------



It's fairly easy to figure out I'm not nootropi by reading my posts both here and at avantlabs.

[stellar]

1FAST400, you should make a seperate thread and issue an apology to Rizzer for what you did.
Hopefully you will learn your lesson from this. It doesn't make you look like a good businessman to advance lies in an effort to discredit your competitors.
In the future, I hope you spend your time improving upon your own business instead.

[scottl]

Nootropi,

Thanks for the info on the place above.

"No, you can take idebenone, in low doses safely."

How did you decide this, and is the low/safe dose enough to be beneficial?

Thanks.

[nootropi]

Nootropi,

Thanks for the info on the place above.

"No, you can take idebenone, in low doses safely."

How did you decide this, and is the low/safe dose enough to be beneficial?

Thanks.

Read this article.

While there may be some evidence saying idebenone may raise ROS in mitochondria in vitro, the in vivo results implicate that this probably is not in fact happening; given the excellent results idebenone delivers to those suffering from mitochondrial disorders.

[hyoomen]

FWIW, I do not believe that the post I gave before acts as 100% credible evidence of the DEA 'raid'. The person I spoke to simply mentioned that he recalled the site name and that he would contact another field office for me to locate some more information and seek evidence for the sake of consumer trust.

While I think we can all agree that there is some concern about a competitor making baseless accusations about or seeking to defame an 'underdog' on the scene, I do not believe that 1fast400's inquiry was wholly unwarranted given the persistent customer service issues of smi2le. By his own admission, 1fast400 stated he had no veritable evidence that the DEA event never happened, and nor do we have any evidence that it did happen.

We do, however, have specific evidence suggesting that smi2le has founded his business on somewhat erroneous information and shrouded his communication and promotional materials in elusive and sometimes incoherent flourishes of language. Through presenting a series of fake physical addresses (domain name registration as well, I believe, as the address on his 'About Us' section -- I have not been able to personally verify his suite address) he undercuts the trust factor for any person who may in the future seek remuneration. Through lack of invoicing and apparently a lack of proper order tracking system he presents his intents and expertise as that of a naive hobbyist -- another issue for anybody interested in purchasing large amounts of consumable chemicals. The language on his site reeks of the stench of snake oil charlatans, though we are able to safely weed through the hullabaloo simply by the grace of our grandiose information networks. He does, however, comp for COA's of his product and maintains some of the best nootropic prices anywhere.

Overall, it makes sense for people to want to shop with Rizzer -- it also makes sense for people to demand honesty and business integrity as a part of any exchange or trade. If the evidence comes back affirmative of smi2le's entanglement with the DEA, then I believe we will have a more appropriate time for a response from 1fast400. If the evidence comes back that the investigation was a paltry knock on the door and that there should have been no interruption in service (which is specifically the context I phrased my questioning towards), I do doubt sincerely anything will be presented by smi2le in the way of an apology -- it would be inconsistent with his current business practices.

In the mean time, everybody should relax and be thankful for what we have offered to us. Y'all need to go get some kava or some GABA enhancers and try to initiate some positive change through increased competition and constructive interfacing with the vendors. Just 02.

[hyoomen]

PS: I appreciate the concerns over purity and hope a third party will seek analytical results on some of the other vendor's products. If money becomes available to me, I will try to seek such information. In the mean time, any discussion of purity of non-third party COA's materials is acknowledgeable only from the perspective of a valid concern without factual evidence. Much like perceived allegations of Rizzer's DEA investigation, concern over the purity of foreign sources of nootropics tentatively hinges on crass generalizations and a vast lack of trust which is concomitant with unregulated products. I sincerely hope we are capable of resolving these issues and thoroughy enjoying their free use quickly, because further concerns of this nature can only result in drastic regulation or prohibition by the US government. In other words, let's get our shit together before our shit gets taken.

[magr]

1fast400

So 1fast400, you have listed on your site, Aniracetam, 250grams for 70 dollars. That’s bulk of course, and Smile sells his for 69.99 for 240grams. About equal.

But Smile gets my first consideration over you because he lists something you don’t, 70 500mg caps for 17.99. I’m just too lazy to do all the cappin’. Soooo, keeping in mind that I don’t mind paying more, what can you do for a years supply of capped Aniracetam, with 365 1,000mg pills if possible. My understanding is that 1gram a day is the best dose.

Also, I’m going to review your whole site. There may be more items that I might want.

Do not order capped powders from smi2le!

I posted earlier in this thread a quote from an Avant topic.
Someone ordered capped powders and some of them was full some wasn't even half.

[Mike M]

http://forum.avantla...1&t=13536&st=60

Read the post by chemicallyminded

VERY interesting

[AORsupport]

"No, you can take idebenone, in low doses safely."

How did you decide this, and is the low/safe dose enough to be beneficial?

Read this article.

While there may be some evidence saying idebenone may raise ROS in mitochondria in vitro, the in vivo results implicate that this probably is not in fact happening; given the excellent results idebenone delivers to those suffering from mitochondrial disorders.

No, quite to the contrary: as I've documented previously, the fact that idebenone relieves the symptoms of mitochondrial disorders is not only consistent with, but actually constitutes evidence supporting, the in vivo significance of the in vitro finding that idebenone increases mitochondrial free radical generation, because the mechanism ("slipping" electrons past Complex I and on to Complex III) is one and the same:

Arch Biochem Biophys.  1996 Jun 15;330(2):395-400. 
The interaction of Q analogs, particularly hydroxydecyl benzoquinone (idebenone), with the respiratory complexes of heart mitochondria.
Esposti MD, Ngo A, Ghelli A, Benelli B, Carelli V, McLennan H, Linnane AW.

Idebenone is ...  clearly a poor substrate for  ... complex I. Indeed, idebenone is a strong inhibitor of both the redox and proton pumping activity of complex I, showing effects in part similar to those of coenzyme Q-2. However, the mechanism of idebenone interaction with complex I may be different from that of Q-2 because of its different sensitivity to inhibitors. The possible relevance of the present findings to the therapeutic use of idebenone is discussed ...

Idebenone promotes a redox bypass of complex I, allowing NADH to be oxidized and enhancing the concentration of quinol substrate for complex III, and at the same time functions as an excellent substrate for succinate oxidation. Both of these effects could result in a potentiation of the bioenergy production of the respiratory chain. ... Nevertheless, our biochemical data suggest that the clinical use of idebenone should be exercised with caution, especially because idebenone could stimulate oxygen radical production in mitochondrial electron transport. Our results also indicate how idebenone may ameliorate mitochondrial defects due to functional impairment of mitochondrial complex I as in the case of LHON [Leber’s hereditary optic neuropathy] (LHON).

Anyone who has missed previous discussion on this topic, please see here, here (the link won't actually bring you to the correct post; go to my post of Jun 9, 2004 on page 4 of the thread), and here.

All life extensionists should also be critically aware of the fallacy of presuming that because something is good for correcting a dysfunction in people with a disease, it will enhance the equivalent faculty in healthy people. We don't administer chemo drugs to healthy people to prevent cancer.

To your health!

AOR

[Lazarus Long]

Anyone who has missed previous discussion on this topic, please see here, here (the link won't actually bring you to the correct post; go to my post of Jun 9, 2004 on page 4 of the thread), and here.

Not to interrupt this discussion but you should all know that if you use the link immediately to the right of the post date you will have a URL that will provide an embedded link directly to a post and not just the beginning of the thread or the top of a page.

The address in your browser will not reflect this info but it is possible in this forum format to link directly to posts.

For example AORSupport is this the post you are referring to?

Sorry for the interruption, carry on please )

Arummmphhhh! [ang]

Well that is how it is supposed to work and the link does refer to the number sequenced post but the window that opens is not the actual post. I just tested my example and it isn't working.

Dang another glitch.

Bruce oh Bruce!

I'll get back on this. [glasses]

[scottl]

Lazarus,

It used to work, but has not for a while.

[Lazarus Long]

As I just discovered by investigating it further with the help of others the function is fickle and works sometimes and on some threads but not others.

That is an even stranger glitch [8)]

[Lazarus Long]

As a follow up I have been advised by the powers that be (Bruce [!] ) that the function works on the First page of a thread only. It doesn't seem to recognize the subsequent (where it would be most useful IMHO) pages and reverts to the top of the first page. [angry]

While we are working on a fix for this glitch I recommend you use the link from the address bar in your browser for the specifically referenced page and that will at least shorten the process by opening at the top of the relevant page instead of the beginning of the entire thread, which can be very annoying in very long threads. [wis] [hmm]