300 replies to this topic

[hippocampus]

no, I've heard and read many anecdotes about psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin) not working when on SSRI or that higher dose was needed. - psychedelics may still work if you take higher dose. but he can still try it, it's not dangerous and shrooms aren't that expensive.

Edited by hippocampus, 05 November 2011 - 06:49 PM.

[manic_racetam]

no, I've heard and read many anecdotes about psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin) not working when on SSRI or that higher dose was needed. - psychedelics may still work if you take higher dose. but he can still try it, it's not dangerous and shrooms aren't that expensive.

That reminds me of this one time I was on bupropion for smoking cessation and took a pretty large dose of mushrooms. I know bupropion isn't an SSRI but I became psychotic and had to be hospitalized for the night. That was when I was much younger and totally ignorant about the possibility of drug interactions (obviously). Anyway, not a good idea to mix Wellbutrin and mushrooms.

In relation to SSRI's and hallucinogens, I guess the SSRI could be blocking the drug from entering the synapse thus stopping reaction with the 5ht2 receptors? Dunno.

[ViolettVol]

Ok, so after I'm done tapering off the zolpidem and benzos - a lot of fun it is proving to be... I decided to try the uridine method Mr Happy recomments and/or maybe piracetam. Now my question would be - which vendor is best for uridine and which for piracetam.? I searched the brand thread but it says sth about phenylpiracetam, i dunno if its the same thing and it seems hard to get. Are there different types of piracetam? Sorry for the noob questions. Is there a site that sells piracetam nowadays?

[MrHappy]

This is my current source of Uridine:
http://www.superiorn...T&Store_Code=SN
They also sell through ebay, which may be a lot easier:
http://www.ebay.com/...s-/310336119467

Here's a bulk piracetam source:
http://www.amazon.co...65P97EJA641QBNQ

The regular 'racetam people here may have better / cheaper sources, but this look pretty reasonable.

You've got local sources for the other things you need to take with these - choline, fish oil (DHS+EPA), berocca, etc. all sorted?

[Ark]

8

Edited by Ark, 06 November 2011 - 10:30 PM.

[Ark]

magic mushrooms are of no use when on SSRI.

No offense but I've used both with postive effects at the same time, I believe the SSRI that I was on at the time was Zoloft. I've found nothing but postive effects.

Can you provide me with studies that indicate that Psilocybin with SSRI's don't work?

He was probably mistakenly referring to MDMA instead of psilocybin

Who me???

MDMA is Garbage for the brain.....

[manic_racetam]

magic mushrooms are of no use when on SSRI.

No offense but I've used both with postive effects at the same time, I believe the SSRI that I was on at the time was Zoloft. I've found nothing but postive effects.

Can you provide me with studies that indicate that Psilocybin with SSRI's don't work?

He was probably mistakenly referring to MDMA instead of psilocybin

Who me???

MDMA is the worst thing you can do for depression, inless your trying to unseed deep problems through some sort of therapy, I really don't see how that's a good thing to take?

No, not you Ark. I was thinking that Hippocampus was thinking of SSRI's blocking the effects of MDMA, but it turns out he was referring to reports that they blocked the effects of hallucinogens

[ViolettVol]

This is my current source of Uridine:
http://www.superiorn...T&Store_Code=SN
They also sell through ebay, which may be a lot easier:
http://www.ebay.com/...s-/310336119467

Here's a bulk piracetam source:
http://www.amazon.co...65P97EJA641QBNQ

The regular 'racetam people here may have better / cheaper sources, but this look pretty reasonable.

You've got local sources for the other things you need to take with these - choline, fish oil (DHS+EPA), berocca, etc. all sorted?

\
I'm thinking about the combo you had for ur wife

250 mg uridine,
4 flaxseed oil caps
1 berocca tablet
a vitamin e cap.
I dont know if i'll be adding the alpha-gpc because I heard it can increase anxiety and thats what I want to avoid.
I have a local source of flaxseed oil caps, but i dont know about berroca - in my country the ingreds in that are sold separately so i'll probably buy from another eurpoean sountry. its not a controlled substance, right? so there shouldnt be a problem. Vitamin e either

As to the stuff that should be taken with piracetam - its choline, right? or sth more? I see vendors although yet again from abroad, but its not controlled either so i think i can manage.
The bill for this plus my zolpidem withdrawal is becom ing soooooo huge I'd appreciate recommendation for the cheapest palces to get all and any of these supps cause i still need cash for my anti-aging supps

One more question - has anyone found sth that helps with night terrors? I keep having these ngithmares in whcih i "wake up" and someones in my home or somethings attacking me, while i know its a dream but its difficult to really wake up - sort of like a lucid dream - you know you're dreaming but you cant control it or wake up, its horrible and exhausting. I read its the effect of zolpidem tolerance/withdrawal, anyone had it and successfully dealt with this?

[JChief]

Your can get uridine here, berocca tablet here and vitamin e cap here, and piracetam and alpha gpc here for starters. Yes it's choline that is often taken with racetams however I do not believe many people need to. Try it without first and in the rare case of a headache try supplementing with choline. Save yourself a little money. No idea about zolpidem.

[ViolettVol]

Ok, so I'm in another stage of my benzos/ zolpidem tapering off, but due to stupid postal services my next batch of pills has not yet arrived so, today i took my last recommended amount of pills and am left tomorrow with zilch of them unless the post actually delivers. I'm scared of the effect this will have on me and wonder if theres any advice you can give me so I dont start going crazy like the last time i stopped cold turkey. I need sth to tie me over until the pills arrive. Any herbal otc stuff I can buy in the pharmacy to help with anxiety? suggestions appreciated.
oh, and it must be stuff that does not clash with ssris.

Edited by ViolettVol, 08 November 2011 - 03:54 PM.

[MrHappy]

GABA is the main issue with Benzos. Crossing the blood brain barrier with GABA is another one.. so you'll have to take something to help you produce it instead.

L-theanine

Eat complex carbohydrates to increase glutamic acid/glutamate which forms glutamine, an amino involved in the production of GABA. Cooking destroys amino acids so eat as many raw foods as possible.

GABA Stimulating Foods
# Almonds
# Tree nuts
# Bananas
# Beef Liver
# Broccoli
# Brown Rice
# Halibut
# Lentils
# Oats, whole grain
# Oranges, citrus fruits
# Rice bran
# Spinach
# Walnuts
# Whole wheat, whole grain

Additionally,
L-tyrosine, magnesium, zinc, b vitamins - b12 in particular .. those should be easy to put your hands on and will help keep you calmer. Try and get extra sleep.

[AbolishtheState]

Ok, so I'm in another stage of my benzos/ zolpidem tapering off, but due to stupid postal services my next batch of pills has not yet arrived so, today i took my last recommended amount of pills and am left tomorrow with zilch of them unless the post actually delivers. I'm scared of the effect this will have on me and wonder if theres any advice you can give me so I dont start going crazy like the last time i stopped cold turkey. I need sth to tie me over until the pills arrive. Any herbal otc stuff I can buy in the pharmacy to help with anxiety? suggestions appreciated.
oh, and it must be stuff that does not clash with ssris.

Since benzodiazepines are GABA_A agonists and zolpidem is a GABA_A potentiator, anything that increases activity at the A receptor subtype would be beneficial in treating withdrawal symptoms:

-Alcohol, l-theanine (from green tea or supplements, if available), kava (probably not deserving of its hepatotoxic reputation), valerian, skullcap, and muscimol (if you happen to have fly agaric mushrooms handy and do not mind "tripping") are all GABA_A agonists, and should thus provide some relief.

-St. John's Wort might also help since its active ingredient, hyperforin, is a GABA reuptake inhibitor, however; combining St. John's Wort with an SSRI may cause serotonin syndrome.

-Lemon balm, as a possible GABA transaminase inhibitor, may inhibit the conversion of GABA into glutamate, possibly increasing GABA levels.

-Picamilon is a combination of niacin and GABA, capable of passing the BBB, which should increase GABA levels in the brain. GABA itself is incapable of passing the BBB and so would provide little benefit, if supplemented.

If you want to read more on these substances and others, visit:

http://en.wikipedia....GABAergic_Drugs

[nupi]

Bacopa and Ashwaghanda are thought to be gaba-ergic.

Bacopa even has some studies showing it as effective as Lorazepam at anxiety control in rats, a slightly bigger dose can easily put you to sleep for 12h without any real breaks.

Ashwaghanda is kind of a weird one, it definitively dulls me and helps me sleep but it does not necessarily make me tired (in fact it says on my bottle to be against fatigue).

[mattblack UK]

My girlfriend has been a long time sufferer of anxiety (social anxiety, health anxiety, OCD) and occasional depression

Through trial and error, I have found the things that work best are:

5-htp 50mg twice a day
Relora 250mg 3 times a day
High Strength EPA 2g a day
Inositol 2g a day
Magnesium. 400mg a day

Which one? I had her on all 5 and she made massive improvements. Gotta give it time to work though, especially the relora and EPA. People write things off far too quickly sometimes.

Never got round to trying kava kava or picamilon, I'd have liked to though.

Edited by mattblack UK, 08 November 2011 - 11:43 PM.

[ViolettVol]

Bacopa and Ashwaghanda are thought to be gaba-ergic.

Bacopa even has some studies showing it as effective as Lorazepam at anxiety control in rats, a slightly bigger dose can easily put you to sleep for 12h without any real breaks.

Ashwaghanda is kind of a weird one, it definitively dulls me and helps me sleep but it does not necessarily make me tired (in fact it says on my bottle to be against fatigue).

Doesnt Ashwaganda also have some rejuvenating/anti inflammatory properties? I'm confused from reading lots on many topics but I think I read this somewhere....

[ViolettVol]

My girlfriend has been a long time sufferer of anxiety (social anxiety, health anxiety, OCD) and occasional depression

Through trial and error, I have found the things that work best are:

5-htp 50mg twice a day
Relora 250mg 3 times a day
High Strength EPA 2g a day
Inositol 2g a day
Magnesium. 400mg a day

Which one? I had her on all 5 and she made massive improvements. Gotta give it time to work though, especially the relora and EPA. People write things off far too quickly sometimes.

Never got round to trying kava kava or picamilon, I'd have liked to though.

Hey, thank you so much for responding!
Cant take 5htp for now because I'm on zoloft, but the rest looks promising
People keep recommending EPA to me. I'm from another country so I dnont know the different types of fish oils mentioned here, I just take my locak brand fish oil but I wonder what brandks of fish oils would you recommend that can be bought online?
Also a cheap provider of inositol and relora would be welcome too - I'm trying to build mjyself a stack that wond cost me too much money, I spent loads on this anxiety thing already :(
Thanks again for your info

[ViolettVol]

Question to MR Happy about my diazepam- assisted zolpidem and benzo withdrawa;l - i made my shopping wrong and have too little zolpidem to taper off properly, is it ok if for some tome I just take small doses of diazepam until the zolpidem arrives to finish off the tapering according to the recommended schedule?

[MrHappy]

I don't think that's the best idea, you may end up feeling pretty bad. How far through your withdrawal program are you and have you started taking any of the other supplements, yet?

[nupi]

You can get NOW Ultra Omega (500mg EPA, 250mg DHA) from iHerb for a pretty decent price - much cheaper than what I have seen in Europe, anyway. For Relora, you can try look at Source Naturals Theanine Serene with Relora (which is really a blend of calming stuff, but aside of the somewhat superfluous GABA, it is all well known), which again can be had at iHerb for a decent enough price (by European standards). Inositol I have never tried, but I'd also check iHerb for starters

As for Diazepam helping with Zolpidem withdrawal that sounds like it should work, after all, they have quite similar mechanisms of action. And Diazepam is a pretty long-lived benzo.

[MrHappy]

nupi - pretty sure she is following this program:
http://www.non-benzo...k/zolpidem.html

I know someone who tried a similar tactic and succeeded.

[MrHappy]

The reason I was asking about the other supps, is that if it was impossible to get soem more zolpidem in time, perhaps a combo of diazepam and one of the GABA related supps might do the job. Depends how far through the schedule she is, though.

[nupi]

Diazepam (even just 10mg) is a FAR stronger GABA agonist (must be the drug I "enjoyed" the most) than any supplement I have ever tried so I do have some doubts whether a supplement is really needed here. The upside with traditional benzos is really that aside of their nasty tolerance issues, they are pretty safe (sure, they do have other, nasty side effects but those can be contained) - it's hard to overdose and if it happens, there are well-established protocols to fix it. There are a few pretty obvious ways to potentiate benzos but I would not recommend anyone going down that path, there are very very nasty dragons at the end of it.

So personally I think I would go for straight Diazepam, perhaps upping the dose a little over the suggested regime if really needed (subject to the disclaimer that I never tried Zolpidem and after reading this, likely will not ever).

Edited by nupi, 14 November 2011 - 10:21 AM.

[MrHappy]

Sure.. I think she's already on the diazepam though. I do know from someone close to me that went off zolpidem that while the diazepam helped, they still had noticable withdrawal from Zol. Got there, though

[ViolettVol]

Sure.. I think she's already on the diazepam though. I do know from someone close to me that went off zolpidem that while the diazepam helped, they still had noticable withdrawal from Zol. Got there, though

Yup, I'm already on the diazepam on the system you recommended. My highest regular dose of zol was 20 mg and I'm in week two of stabilizing that so theres still some way to go. Hadnt had a chance to shop for supps yet cause buying the benzos and zolp is pricey. I'm already appalled how much money goes into these meds. I have fish oil luckily, a brand from my country, dont know how strong it is, but I'll defineitly up my dose of that.

The ironic thing about zolp is that not everyone has the reaction to it that I experienced, guess Im sensitive and funny thing is - I was anxious before ever taking zolp, so zolp didnt cause the anxiety it just alleviated it for a bit but then came tolerance, memory lapses and weird behaviour so not fun. Another ironic thing is - its a sleeping med, but before tolerance, after I took it I could either go to sleep in a great mood or stay awake and feel very motivated, relax, accomplish lots of tasks. I read people's stories with zolp and some of them go through like 6 whole pills a day just to function.. Scared the ***** out of me I dont wanna get there. I think this is why they recommend to go to sleep immediately after taking the pill - then you just experience the relaxed floating off to sleep. If you stay awake, the feeling is so good, like you suddenly believe everything will be allright and you can accomplish anything. The relief from the absence of anxiety is so great it is hard not to get hooked. I actualy accomplished some pretty daring stuff career-wise taking it , but the after-effects of tolerance are nasty. Luckily i read somewhere it does not damage brain but repairs something in it. And its a good thing i took this rather than other euphoria inducing drugs like hard drugs - then I'd really be in the pits....
Here's to hoping I come out of this intact and will become the serene, motivated, happy person I so want to be
And huuuuuuuuge thank you to all of you guys who took and interest in it and are helping me. Just knowing you are there makes me feel better
*hugs*

[nupi]

Benzos should be dirt cheap (I seem to recall paying about the same as for a pack of regular Aspirin) - do talk to your pharmacists about generics if they seem expensive.

[ViolettVol]

Benzos should be dirt cheap (I seem to recall paying about the same as for a pack of regular Aspirin) - do talk to your pharmacists about generics if they seem expensive.

The problem is my doctor did not prescribe any for meafter zolpidem he seems oblivious to the effects of zolpidem withdrawal he sees it as a safe drug you can stop taking cold turkey, so I had to buy mine overseas and the price escalates like hell
I dont know what to do now- should I go to a diifferent psychiatrist, tell him about my withdrawal and ask for the meds? I think he'll just think im a junkie who wants a fix and will send me home with a different benzo or sent me off to a dertox facility.

[nupi]

I'd be wary ordering benzos overseas, I'd expect customs to not look very nicely on that if they catch it. So I'd try another doc. Overall, I have had good experience with getting prescriptions (but I never tried to get anything truly outrageous, but benzos should fall in that category either way)- tell the docs what they want to hear (read the respective DSM-IV chapters if you can get them, otherwise Wikipedia will do) and be on your way. As for detox, I seriously doubt a psychiatrist can commit you if you are not suicidal or otherwise dangerous...

[MrHappy]

.. Or print out the reams of websites showing people's experiences withdrawing from it, or even wikipedia: http://en.m.wikipedi...drawal_syndrome .. ask him if he was aware that withdrawing from heroin would be an easier task to accomplish than zolpidem, because you would have liked to have been made aware of that when he prescribed it to you originally. Tell him you need his assistance following the schedule you have set to get back to 'normal' again and get a new prescription. Yes, it's a little confrontational, but how else is he going to learn, without feedback?

If he doesn't want to help you, go find another doctor - any doctor, doesn't have to be a psychiatrist. Get the items you need to get healthy.. move on with life.. be happy!

[ViolettVol]

.. Or print out the reams of websites showing people's experiences withdrawing from it, or even wikipedia: http://en.m.wikipedi...drawal_syndrome .. ask him if he was aware that withdrawing from heroin would be an easier task to accomplish than zolpidem, because you would have liked to have been made aware of that when he prescribed it to you originally. Tell him you need his assistance following the schedule you have set to get back to 'normal' again and get a new prescription. Yes, it's a little confrontational, but how else is he going to learn, without feedback?

If he doesn't want to help you, go find another doctor - any doctor, doesn't have to be a psychiatrist. Get the items you need to get healthy.. move on with life.. be happy!

Thanks for the suggestions Mr Happy, I'm gonna try with a different doc. This ones a family friend and helped me a lot a few years back with ocd, so I think his fault lay only in underestimating the addictive power of zolp, since I learned they have these seminars for docs where they presnt them with all the crap benzos and antipsychotics do and the present zolp type meds as safest anyway. So he wasnt even aware of the physiological addictin that might occur. And it is my own fault i took id during the day instead of at night so..
I'll try a different doctor for a withdrawal stack and mildly inform my old one that certain people are sensitive to zolp and he should be careful. I don;t want angry confrontations as I know him and he rarely ever prescribes anything so it might have been an honest mistake plus my own naivete.
Now I'm looking into buying the supps you recommended, thanks for the sources, just one question - none of them cause anything that ages skin, right?

[MrHappy]

Actually the opposite. My skin is so much more elastic and my wrinkles have faded. Turns out some of the ingredients are also in some special skin rejuvenation formula recently launched... Guess what's good for brain and nervous tissue is good for epithelial tissue as well!

My stack is a little different to my wife's, although she is taking alpha-gpc.

It's amazing how well she's progressed.

In the last few weeks she's been systematically 'cleaning house' - digging up old issues, thinking and talking about them, having major breakthroughs and resolving them. They don't come up again. No therapist involved, either. Amazing!!

She's confident, calm and happy!

Edited by MrHappy, 18 November 2011 - 10:25 AM.