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What would it take to reverse an theist's position on the existence of God?

god theists religion

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#121 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:21 AM

As far as I can tell, Christianity is a fairy tale. And I don't think anyone has come forward with proof that Christianity is rooted in events of history, as opposed to rooted in misrepresentations of eye-witness accounts, and unverified stages in a gradually evolving myth. If you can prove this, then you've done better than any scholar to date. To put it bluntly, in your words, I believe the evidence renders it probable that Christianity (like other religions) is a human invention.


Evidence, and you are without any. This is simply empty and baseless charges. I am not better than any scholar but who are you speaking for all scholars. Evidence, you have provided none. Here are a few internal and external sources on the text itself. This is off topic and you need to show why this is wrong and a theist should change their minds.

BIBLICAL - INTERNAL EVIDENCE

http://winteryknight...peter-and-paul/
http://www.apologeti...pologetics 315)


BIBLICAL - EXTERNAL EVIDENCE


#122 gamesguru

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:27 AM

Christian dogmas are so similar to Jewish ones that it must probably have been lifted directly, with only a few minor changes as the times saw fit.

You're placing demands on us that we simply don't have time for. If you refuse to answer our questions or explore our resources, why should we answer yours? Refusing to answer questions isn't proof that we don't have evidence...it's just proof that we're lazy humans working with a limited intellect.

#123 Ben

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:40 AM

Such a fucking troll. Fellow fearers should not be baited into this adolescent physics debate on the metaphysical.
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#124 mikeinnaples

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:42 PM

Evidence, and you are without any. This is simply empty and baseless charges. I am not better than any scholar but who are you speaking for all scholars. Evidence, you have provided none. Here are a few internal and external sources on the text itself. This is off topic and you need to show why this is wrong and a theist should change their minds.


Still waiting for your evidence that there is a god by the way. And no, evidence is not you linking in some video created by a quack job theorizing that there 'may' be a god.

Until you provide evidence, you really shouldnt be crying about other lacking it.
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#125 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:25 PM

Christian dogmas are so similar to Jewish ones that it must probably have been lifted directly, with only a few minor changes as the times saw fit.

You're placing demands on us that we simply don't have time for. If you refuse to answer our questions or explore our resources, why should we answer yours? Refusing to answer questions isn't proof that we don't have evidence...it's just proof that we're lazy humans working with a limited intellect.

Every writer of the New Testament is a Jew. Obviously you don’t know what you are talking about. If you don’t have time, fine. Nice excse. I have not refused to answer any question. Where and what? Who is the plural “us?” Ad hominian attacks again. Ben is right except for his language. CU

#126 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:48 PM

Evidence, and you are without any. This is simply empty and baseless charges. I am not better than any scholar but who are you speaking for all scholars. Evidence, you have provided none. Here are a few internal and external sources on the text itself. This is off topic and you need to show why this is wrong and a theist should change their minds.


Still waiting for your evidence that there is a god by the way. And no, evidence is not you linking in some video created by a quack job theorizing that there 'may' be a god.

Until you provide evidence, you really shouldnt be crying about other lacking it.

No argument here except your usual Ad hominian attack. “What would it take to reverse an theist's position on the existence of God,,” is the topic. You are the one who gives no reasons. What a joke.

Here is a rule I think Longecity should adapt.
No insulting people. This means not calling them abusive names or making insulting insinuations about them which according to my judgment unnecessarily demean them as a person or which I take to be intended to demean them as a person. You may charge that people’s ideas are false, harmful, irrationally derived, etc. You may substantiate charges that someone’s personal behavior deserves moral disrepute where that’s relevant. You may critique an individual’s standards of evidence or question their commitment to reason. But when you do things like this, stick to substantiatable charges. Use words which clearly specify what specific thing makes a person or institution’s ideas, beliefs, behaviors, attitudes, etc. worthy of criticism. Abusive names (like “stupid”, “moron”, “asshole”, “jerk”, “douchebag”, “idiot”, “motherfucker”, “dick”, “cunt”, “nigger”, “Feminazi”, “shitbag”, “mental midget”, “twat”, “fuckwad”, “retard”, “homo”, “fag”, “tranny”, “bitch”, “nutcase”, “crazy”, etc.) are emotional expressions meant solely to hurt other people. They are social equivalents of physical assaults. ‘

Ben is right. CU

#127 gamesguru

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:01 PM

Shadowhawk, the only reason you're posting in this thread is because it's one of the only questions that atheists can't satisfactorily answer. If we opened another thread asking "what it would take to raise doubt in Theists", I'd wager your presence would be conspicuously absent. If I hear you say I'm going off topic once more when I try to disprove your claims, I'll leave you alone with your unsound dogmas. You are the one using ad hominem attacks, you just don't realize what an ad hominem is. Continue mindlessly accusing others of fallacies in every single post and I'll leave this debate...I don't need you to cause me anger and stress, I have enough from life already. Go dump your anger on people who are stupid enough to believe you understand what constitutes a fallacy.

One of my many questions was what makes Christianity any more reliable than, say, Islam, which also has gospels. You refuse to look at an encyclopedia of arguments against theism, claiming it's too long. You dismiss the Homeric Gods with the same dogmatic pretentiousness that I dismiss the Christian Gods with. You're hypocritical in these respect. You avoid our real arguments and difficulties, and post low quality resources.

Who was Ben talking to? He's not clear on that.

Also, when I said Jewish, I meant not written by people of Jewish decent, but inspired by Judaism, which I maintain preceded Christianity, and which I maintain is the progenitor of it. So thanks for committing a straw man fallacy on me :D.

Edited by dasheenster, 02 August 2012 - 09:03 PM.


#128 shadowhawk

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:04 AM

dasheenster: Shadowhawk, the only reason you're posting in this thread is because it's one of the only questions that atheists can't satisfactorily answer. If we opened another thread asking "what it would take to raise doubt in Theists", I'd wager your presence would be conspicuously absent. If I hear you say I'm going off topic once more when I try to disprove your claims,


Nonsense. I have posted in many threads and topics. This isn’t the only topic Atheists have trouble answering. See
http://www.longecity...ce-for-atheism/
http://www.longecity...tes-in-england/
Atheists have been given their fair chance by me and I presented both sides. I have also posted elsewhere on all kinds of topics.

dasheenster I'll leave you alone with your unsound dogmas. You are the one using ad hominem attacks, you just don't realize what an ad hominem is. Continue mindlessly accusing others of fallacies in every single post and I'll leave this debate...I don't need you to cause me anger and stress, I have enough from life already. Go dump your anger on people who are stupid enough to believe you understand what constitutes a fallacy.


More Logical Fallacies and name calling. I don’t think you know what you are talking about.
http://www.fallacies.ca/welcome.htm
http://www.nizkor.or...ures/fallacies/
http://carm.org/logi...s-argumentation
http://afterall.net/illogic

I have many more good sources and books but you told me you don’t have time. I know, I quoted a source rather than writing it all out. I hope you (we) can handle it without to much anger. Not enough time.

dasheenster: One of my many questions was what makes Christianity any more reliable than, say, Islam, which also has gospels. You refuse to look at an encyclopedia of arguments against theism, claiming it's too long. You dismiss the Homeric Gods with the same dogmatic pretentiousness that I dismiss the Christian Gods with. You're hypocritical in these respect. You avoid our real arguments and difficulties, and post low quality resources.


I don’t recall this about Islam. Where and when. As far as your web site of problems. I asked you to chose one issue out of the hundreds and you chose the presumption of atheism.. Want to follow that argument again? Start here

http://www.longecity...post__p__519002
http://www.longecity...od/page__st__60
I answered your questions beginning above and as I recall you disappeared. I am disinclined to go over it again and anyone interested can see the fallacy of your statement. I didn’t refuse to look at the arguments and started answering them based on your choice. Your statement and representing, is false. Are you now defending the Homeric Gods or asking me to defend everything called “God?” Calling a tree a car doesn’t make it so. Everything called God, isn’t.

dasheenster: Also, when I said Jewish, I meant not written by people of Jewish decent, but inspired by Judaism, which I maintain preceded Christianity, and which I maintain is the progenitor of it. So thanks for committing a straw man fallacy on me :D.


Christ and early Christians were good Jews. What did I say, that you disagree with? Identify it. I agree totally with what you are saying here but there must be something else to inspire this response. How did I commit a straw man fallacy?
:|?
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#129 shadowhawk

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:34 AM


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#130 mikeinnaples

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:04 PM

Here is a rule I think Longecity should adapt.

<Whole lot of crying>


What you don't get is that it is your attitude, martyr crying, and hypocrisy that is causing the problem. You are pointing fingers everywhere else when you should be pointing them at yourself. You could be the greatest guy in the world for all I know, but when you complain about personal attacks in one sentence and then direct your own towards someone else in the next, I have an extremely hard time taking you seriously or treating you with any respect. That and your refusal to actually post your own thoughts and make your own debate, opting instead to regurgitate someone else's words 95% of the time... it is borderline maddening. You make it extremely difficult to treat you as anything other than a random forum troll.
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#131 shadowhawk

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:12 PM

Here is a rule I think Longecity should adapt.

<Whole lot of crying>


What you don't get is that it is your attitude, martyr crying, and hypocrisy that is causing the problem. You are pointing fingers everywhere else when you should be pointing them at yourself. You could be the greatest guy in the world for all I know, but when you complain about personal attacks in one sentence and then direct your own towards someone else in the next, I have an extremely hard time taking you seriously or treating you with any respect. That and your refusal to actually post your own thoughts and make your own debate, opting instead to regurgitate someone else's words 95% of the time... it is borderline maddening. You make it extremely difficult to treat you as anything other than a random forum troll.


nonsense. :sleep:
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#132 mikeinnaples

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:12 AM

Here is a rule I think Longecity should adapt.

<Whole lot of crying>


What you don't get is that it is your attitude, martyr crying, and hypocrisy that is causing the problem. You are pointing fingers everywhere else when you should be pointing them at yourself. You could be the greatest guy in the world for all I know, but when you complain about personal attacks in one sentence and then direct your own towards someone else in the next, I have an extremely hard time taking you seriously or treating you with any respect. That and your refusal to actually post your own thoughts and make your own debate, opting instead to regurgitate someone else's words 95% of the time... it is borderline maddening. You make it extremely difficult to treat you as anything other than a random forum troll.


nonsense. :sleep:


Nice response and thanks for providing an example of why people consider you a troll.

#133 johnross47

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:40 PM

I notice that nothing has changed since I got bored with this topic being dominated by shadowhawk's repetitive bad behaviour. His presence makes the effort required to answer the question fairly pointless, since no matter what anyone posts he will just dig into his very small bag and throw out a permutation of its limited contents. You could take any of his posts from any of the other topics he has spoiled and randomly swap them with the posts here without seeing any difference. It's a general rule of life; if shadowhawk joins a topic, it's time to abandon it because it's going nowhere.

#134 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:59 PM

Ad hominian, and off topic. You guys say the same tired thing over and again. Guess this is your best shot at convecting a theist to change. Lets watch a good video of another approach at changing Theists. :)


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#135 johnross47

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:20 PM

you continue to ignore the point of people's posts. Why don't you go and join the other god botherers on a god bothering site and leave this one to people who actually enjoy a proper discussion. The fact that you are clearly here only to be obnoxious is what makes it obvious you are a troll.

#136 shadowhawk

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 10:01 PM

Here is a rule I think Longecity should adapt.

<Whole lot of crying>


What you don't get is that it is your attitude, martyr crying, and hypocrisy that is causing the problem. You are pointing fingers everywhere else when you should be pointing them at yourself. You could be the greatest guy in the world for all I know, but when you complain about personal attacks in one sentence and then direct your own towards someone else in the next, I have an extremely hard time taking you seriously or treating you with any respect. That and your refusal to actually post your own thoughts and make your own debate, opting instead to regurgitate someone else's words 95% of the time... it is borderline maddening. You make it extremely difficult to treat you as anything other than a random forum troll.


What you don’t get is this is completely off topic and all you seem capable of is ad hominem attacks. What does my attitude have to do with anything. I don’t care if you respect me. Off topic again. All your posts are the same old personal attacks. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest but is to boring to engage in. I expect you to relate to the topic and stop the same old content less Balgonie.. Say something on topic and I will relate to it.
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#137 shadowhawk

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 10:13 PM

' post='528114'][/size]
you continue to ignore the point of people's posts. Why don't you go and join the other god botherers on a god bothering siteand leave this one to people who actually enjoy a proper discussion. The fact that you are clearly here only to be obnoxious is what makes it obvious you are a troll.


What is your point? None! :laugh:

I am the one who has related to the topic. This is nothing but an ad hominem, off topic, name calling by a bigot who dislikes Theists. It is not a discussion.

Edited by shadowhawk, 08 August 2012 - 10:19 PM.

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#138 mikeinnaples

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:53 PM

What you don’t get is this is completely off topic and all you seem capable of is ad hominem attacks. What does my attitude have to do with anything. I don’t care if you respect me. Off topic again. All your posts are the same old personal attacks. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest but is to boring to engage in. I expect you to relate to the topic and stop the same old content less Balgonie.. Say something on topic and I will relate to it.


1. Silly to whine about Ad Hom attacks when you constantly and consistently make them yourself.

2. Silly to whine about how people treat you on forums, when you say you don't care about respect. If people respect you via the posts you make, the ad hom attacks you cry about will most likely magically stop.

3. For someone that says it is boring to engage in, you are sure quick to do so. If it really bores you like you say, stop responding. Simple.

This is nothing but an ad hominem, off topic, name calling by a bigot who dislikes Theists.


The sad thing about this quoted section is that you are so self righteous and deluded that you can't even grasp the irony of it. Sad.

#139 mikeinnaples

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:38 PM

Just a question for those Theists out there that take the bible literally....

Leviticus 25:44 - "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you."


Do you own slaves?

#140 shadowhawk

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 10:04 PM

Just a question for those Theists out there that take the bible literally....

Leviticus 25:44 - "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you."


Do you own slaves?


Are you serious about me owning slaves? Spoken like a ignorant.

I am not going to write a book on slavery, especially when debating with someone who is too lazy to deal with the issues or look at materials presented. So here is a response from a Christian scholar on the subject you can look at and you can pick out what issues inspire you. The Christian position was championed by William Wilberforce, in history, which we can also discuss. Here is an overview, and we can relate to individual scriptures next time. Remember the topic.

Upon what moral basis do you judge slavery?

Is there anything worse than slavery for an Atheist? What?

To the issue of slavery.

Does the Old Testament Endorse Slavery? An Overview

If Bible-believing Southerners had followed Israel’s law code, antebellum slavery would not have existed or been much of an issue.

By Paul Copan

Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811–96) is the famed author of the Uncle Tom’s Cabin. When Abraham Lincoln met her when she came to the White House, he purportedly said, “So you’re the little woman who wrote the book that started this great war!” Stowe described the nature of antebellum (pre-Civil War) slavery: “The legal power of the master amounts to an absolute despotism over body and soul,” and “there is no protection for the slave’s life.”1

When Christians and non-Christians read about slaves or slavery in Israel, they often think along the lines of antebellum slavery, with its slave trade and cruelties. This is a terrible misperception, and many — including the New Atheists — have bought into this misperception. Sam Harris writes that slaves are human beings who are capable of suffering and happiness. Yet the Old Testament regards them as “farm equipment,” which is “patently evil.”2

In this and two successive articles, I will address slavery in Scripture. In the first two articles I focus on slavery in the Old Testament. The third will address slavery in the New Testament. For a more detailed discussion, see my book, Is God a Moral Monster? (Baker, January 2011).
Hebrew Servanthood as Indentured Servitude

We should compare Hebrew debt-servanthood (many translations render this “slavery”) more fairly to apprentice-like positions to pay off debts — much like the indentured servitude during America’s founding when people worked for approximately 7 years to pay off the debt for their passage to the New World. Then they became free.

In most cases, servanthood was more like a live-in employee, temporarily embedded within the employer’s household. Even today, teams trade sports players to another team that has an owner, and these players belong to a franchise. This language hardly suggests slavery, but rather a formal contractual agreement to be fulfilled — like in the Old Testament.3

Through failed crops or other disasters, debt tended to come to families, not just individuals. One could voluntarily enter into a contractual agreement (“sell” himself) to work in the household of another: “one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself” (Leviticus 25:47). A wife or children could be “sold” to help sustain the family through economically unbearable times — unless kinfolk “redeemed” them (payed their debt). They would be debt-servants for 6 years.4 A family might need to mortgage their land until the year of Jubilee every 50 years.5

Note: In the Old Testament, outsiders did not impose servanthood — as in the antebellum South.6 Masters could hire servants “from year to year” and were not to “rule over … [them] ruthlessly” (Leviticus 25:46,53). Rather than being excluded from Israelite society, servants were thoroughly embedded within Israelite homes.

The Old Testament prohibited unavoidable lifelong servanthood — unless someone loved his master and wanted to attach himself to him (Exodus 21:5). Masters were to grant their servants release every seventh year with all debts forgiven (Leviticus 25:35–43). A slave’s legal status was unique in the ancient Near East (ANE) — a dramatic improvement over ANE law codes: “Hebrew has no vocabulary of slavery, only of servanthood.”7

An Israelite servant’s guaranteed eventual release within 7 years was a control or regulation to prevent the abuse and institutionalizing of such positions. The release-year reminded the Israelites that poverty-induced servanthood was not an ideal social arrangement. On the other hand, servanthood existed in Israel precisely because poverty existed: no poverty, no servants in Israel. And if servants lived in Israel, this was voluntary (typically poverty-induced) — not forced.
The Dignity of Servants in Israel

Israel’s servant laws were concerned about controlling or regulating — not idealizing — an inferior work arrangement. Israelites entered into servitude voluntarily — though not optimal. The intent of Israel’s laws was to combat potential abuses, not to institutionalize servitude. The Old Testament punished forced slavery by death. Once a master freed a person from his servant obligations, the former servant had the “status of full and unencumbered citizenship.”8

Old Testament legislation sought to prevent voluntary debt-servitude. God gave Mosaic legislation to prevent the poor from entering, even temporarily, into voluntary indentured service. The poor could glean the edges of fields or pick lingering fruit on trees after their fellow Israelites’ harvest (Leviticus 19:9,10; 23:22; Deuteronomy 24:20,21; cp. Exodus 23:10). Also, God commanded fellow-Israelites to lend freely to the poor (Deuteronomy 15:7,8), and to not charge them interest (Exodus 22:25; Leviticus 25:36,37). And when the poor could not afford sacrificial animals, they could sacrifice smaller, less-expensive ones (Leviticus 5:7,11). Also, people were to automatically cancel debts every 7 years. And when a master released his debt-servants,he was to generously provide for them — without a “grudging heart” (Deuteronomy 15:10). The bottom line: God did not want there to be any poverty (or servanthood) in Israel (Deuteronomy 15:4). So, servant laws existed to help the poor, not harm them or keep them down.

Rather than relegating treatment of servants (“slaves”) to the end of the law code (commonly done in other ANE law codes), the matter is front-and-center in Exodus 21. For the first time in the ANE, God’s legislation required treating servants (“slaves”) as persons, not property. Genesis 1:26,27 affirms that all humans are God’s image-bearers. Job states that master and slave alike come from the mother’s womb and are ultimately equals (Job 31:13–15). As one scholar writes: “We have in the Bible the first appeals in world literature to treat slaves as human beings for their own sake and not just in the interests of their masters.”9
Three Remarkable Provisions in Israel

A simple comparison of Israel’s law code with those of the rest of the ANE reveal three remarkable differences. If Bible-believing Southerners had followed these three provisions, antebellum slavery would not have existed or been much of an issue.

1. Anti-Harm Laws: One marked improvement of Israel’s laws over other ANE law codes is the release of injured servants (Exodus 21:26,27). When an employer (“master”) accidentally gouged out the eye or knocked out the tooth of his male or female servant/employee, he/she was to go free. God did not allow physical abuse of servants. If an employer’s disciplining his servant resulted in immediate death, that employer (“master”) was to be put to death for murder (Exodus 21:20) — unlike other ANE codes.10 In fact, Babylon’s Hammurabi’s Code permitted the master to cut off his disobedient slave’s ear (¶282). Typically in ANE law codes, masters — not slaves — were merely financially compensated. The Mosaic Law, however, held masters to legal account for their treatment of their own servants — not simply another person’s servants.

2. Anti-Kidnapping Laws: Another unique feature of the Mosaic Law is its condemnation of kidnapping a person to sell as a slave — an act punishable by death (Exodus 21:16; cp. Deuteronomy 24:7). Kidnapping, of course, is how slavery in the antebellum South could get off the ground.

3. Anti-Return Laws: Unlike the antebellum South, Israel was to offer safe harbor to foreign runaway slaves (Deuteronomy 23:15,16) — a marked contrast to the Southern states’ Fugitive Slave Law. Hammurabi’s Code demanded the death penalty for those helping runaway slaves (¶16). In other less-severe cases — in the Lipit-Ishtar (¶12), Eshunna (¶49-50), and Hittite laws (¶24) — fines were exacted for sheltering fugitive slaves. Some claim that this is an improvement. Well, sort of. In these “improved” scenarios, the slave was still just property; the ANE extradition arrangements still required that the slave be returned his master. And not only this, the slave was going back to the harsh conditions that prompted him to run away in the first place.11 Even upgraded laws in first millennium BC Babylon included compensation to the owner (or perhaps something more severe) for harboring a runaway slave. Yet the returned slaves themselves were disfigured, including slitting ears and branding.12 This isn’t the kind of improvement to publicize too widely.

Old Testament scholar Christopher Wright observes: “No other ancient near Eastern law has been found that holds a master to account for the treatment of his own slaves (as distinct from injury done to the slave of another master), and the otherwise universal law regarding runaway slaves was that they must be sent back, with severe penalties for those who failed to comply.”13

If the South had followed these three clear laws from Exodus and Deuteronomy, slavery would have been a nonissue. What’s more, Israel’s treatment of servants (“slaves”) was unparalleled in the ANE.

Next issue, I will look at some sticky “slavery” passages.

Richard L. Dresselhaus

PAUL COPAN, Ph.D., West Palm Beach, Florida, is professor and Pledger Family Chair of Philosophy and Ethics at Palm Beach Atlantic University in West Palm Beach, Florida. He is author and editor of a number of books, including When God Goes to Starbucks, True for You, But Not for Me, That’s Just Your Interpretation, Creation Out of Nothing, and Is God A Moral Monster? Making Sense Of The Old Testament God.He is also president of the Evangelical Philosophical Society.

Notes

1. Harriet Beecher Stowe, A Key to Uncle Tom’s Cabin; Presenting the Facts and Documents Upon Which the Story Is Founded, Together With Corroborative Statements Verifying the Truth of the Work (Boston: John P. Jewett, 1853), I.10, 139.

2. Sam Harris, The End of Faith (New York: W.W. Norton, 2004), 18.

3. Douglas Stuart, Exodus (Nashville: B&H, 2009), 474,5.

4. From Tikva Frymer-Kenski “Anatolia and the Levant: Israel,” in A History of Ancient Near East Law, vol. 2, ed., Raymond Westbrook (Leiden: Brill, 2003).

5. See Gregory C. Chirichigno, Debt-Slavery in Israel and the Ancient Near East, JSOT Supplement Series 141(Sheffield: University of Sheffield Press, 1993), 351–54.

6. See Gordon Wenham, “Family in the Pentateuch,” in Family in the Bible, eds.Richard S. Hess and Daniel Carrol (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2003), 21.

7. J.A. Motyer, The Message of Exodus (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity, 2005),239.

8. John I. Durham, Exodus (Waco, Tex.: Word1987), 321.

9. Muhammad A. Dandamayev, s.v. “Slavery (Old Testament),” in Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 6, ed. David Noel Freedman (New York: Doubleday, 1992).

10. See Christopher Wright, Old Testament Ethics and the People of God (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 2006), 292.

11. ANE legal texts references are from William W. Hallo, ed., The Context of Scripture: Volume II: Monumental Inscriptions From the Biblical World (Leiden: Brill, 2003); Martha T. Roth, Law Collections From Mesopotamia and Asia Minor, 2nd ed. (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1997). See also Elisabeth Meier Tetlow, Women, Crime, and Punishment in Ancient Law and Society: Volume 1: The Ancient Near East (New York: Continuum 2004).

12. Raymond Westbrook, ed., s.v. “Neo-Babylonian Period,” A History of Ancient Near Eastern Law, 2: 932.

13. Wright, Old Testament Ethics, 292.

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#141 mikeinnaples

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:35 PM

Just a question for those Theists out there that take the bible literally....

Leviticus 25:44 - "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you."


Do you own slaves?


Are you serious about me owning slaves? Spoken like a ignorant.


I didn't read what you copy and pasted from another website. I asked a question directed towards people that take the bible literally, I did not ask you specifically or say that you own slaves.... complete failure on your part there bud.

#142 johnross47

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:06 PM

You have to give him one point though....he has actually acknowledged his source for the first time in history. That might be the begining of a humanisation program.

#143 shadowhawk

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:58 PM

mikennaples: I didn't read what you copy and pasted from another website. I asked a question directed towards people that take the bible literally, I did not ask you specifically or say that you own slaves.... complete failure on your part there bud.


Nonsense, you asked me,“Do you own slaves?” As for your ignorant characterization of the hermeneutics used by theists in interpreting the Bible I suppose you think people who read anything take it literally. What do you mean by “literally?” Let me quote another section on Old Testament “slavery,” passages. I know you don’t have time to read it because I suspect you are not interested in an answer.

“Does the Old Testament Endorse Slavery?
Examining Difficult Texts (Part 2)


By Paul Copan

In “Does the Old Testament Endorse Slavery? An Overview” (Enrichment journal, Spring 2011), I discussed the general nature of Old Testament servitude. In this essay, I examine three of the most challenging Old Testament servitude texts. For a more in-depth treatment, see my book, Is God a Moral Monster?
Beating Slaves to Death?

“If a man strikes his male servant or his female servant with a staff so that he or she dies as a result of the blow, he will surely be punished [naqam]. However, if the injured servant survives one or two days, the owner will not be punished [naqam], for he has suffered the loss” (Exodus 21:20,21, NET1).

Is the servant here merely property? The Old Testament affirms each person’s full dignity (e.g., Genesis 1:26,27; Deuteronomy 15:1–18; Job 31:13–15). Exodus 21:20,21 proves no exception. If the servant died after “one or two days,” the Law gave the master the benefit of the doubt that he had no murderous intent. But if the master’s striking his servant caused immediate death, the courts would charge the master with capital punishment: “He shall be avenged” (ESV2). The verb naqam always involves the death penalty.3

This theme reinforces the “life for life” theme (21:23,24), which follows this servant-beating passage. The master was to not treat his servant as property, but as a dignified human being.
Leaving Wife and Children Behind?

“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years, but in the seventh year he will go out free without paying anything. If he came in by himself he will go out by himself; if he had a wife when he came in, then his wife will go out with him. If his master gave him a wife, and she bore sons or daughters, the wife and the children will belong to her master, and he will go out by himself. But if the servant should declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever” (Exodus 21:2–6, NET).

In my spring 2011 article, I noted that, out of desperation, a man might hire out temporarily (“sell”) his wife, children, or even himself to help get the family out of debt — a voluntary servitude, quite unlike antebellum slavery. The man, wife, and children would have a roof over their heads with food and clothing supplied by the employer (“master”). As for this particular law in Exodus 21:2–6, some critics complain that a woman and children are disadvantaged — even trapped. To them, since the man gets to go free, this reflects an antiwoman, antichild bias — or it traps the man into staying with the master if he marries a fellow servant woman.

Three responses are in order:

First, we have good reason to think this passage is not gender specific.This is an example of case law (“if such-and-such a scenario arises, then this is how to proceed”). Case law was typically gender-neutral. Furthermore, Israelite judges were quite capable of applying laws to male and female alike. An impoverished woman, whose father did not give her as a prospective wife to a (widowed or divorced) man or his son (Exodus 21:7–11), could perform standard household tasks,4 and she could go free by this same law.5

Various scholars suggest this legitimate, alternate reading: “If you buy a Hebrew servant, she is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, she will go out free. … If her master gives her a husband, and they have sons or daughters, the husband and the children will belong to her master, and she will go out by herself.” This reading makes perfect sense, and does not violate the law’s spirit.

Second, this scenario is not as harsh as it first appears.Let us stick with a male servant scenario. In this case, the employer arranges for a marriage between this unmarried male servant and a female servant. (In debt servitude, the employer’s family could engage in marriage negotiations.) By taking the male servant into his home to work off a debt, the boss has made an investment. He would stand to suffer loss if the servant walked out on the contract. In military service, even if a soldier marries, he cannot simply walk away because he still owes the military his time. So it would not make sense to let the man go with his family without paying off the debt.

Third, the released man has three options: (a) He could wait for his wife and kids to finish their term of service while he worked elsewhere. His wife and kids were not “stuck” in the employer’s home the rest of their lives. They could be released when the wife worked off her debt. Yet, if the newly freed man worked elsewhere, he would have been separated from his family, and his boss would no longer supply him with food, clothing, and shelter. On the other hand, if he lived with his family after release, he would still need to pay room and board. So this scenario created its own set of financial challenges.

(b) He could get a decent job elsewhere and save his shekels to pay his boss to release his wife and kids from contractual obligations. The problem is that it would have been very difficult for the man to support himself and to earn enough money for his family’s debt-release.

© He could commit himself to working permanently for his employer — a lifetime contract (verses 5,6). He could stay with his family and remain in fairly stable economic circumstances, formalizing his intent in a legal ceremony before the judges (“God”) by having his ear pierced with an awl.

Westerners should not impose modern solutions on difficult ancient problems; rather, we need to better grasp the nature of Israelite servitude and the social and economic circumstances surrounding it. We are talking about voluntary servitude in unfortunate circumstances during bleak economic times. Israel’s laws provided safety nets for protection, not oppression.
Owning Foreign Slaves?

“[Israelites] are not to be sold in a slave sale. … As for your male and female slaves whom you may have — you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves” (Leviticus 25:42–46, NASB6).

This text troubles many, but consider the following points. First, according to Leviticus 19:33,34, Israel was to love the stranger in the land.Also, Exodus’ laws (Exodus 21:20,21,26,27) protect all persons in service to others — not just Jews —from abuse.7

Second, the verb acquire [qanah] in Leviticus 25:39–51 need not involve selling or purchasing foreign servants as property. This verb appears in Genesis 4:1 (Eve’s having “gotten a manchild,” KJV); and 14:19 (God as “possessor of heaven and earth,” KJV);8 and Boaz “acquired” Ruth as a wife (Ruth 4:10) — clearly a full partner and not inferior.

Third, the “aliens” in servitude (Leviticus 25:45) are the same ones capable of sufficient “means” to purchase their own freedom (verse 47). They were not inevitably stuck in lifelong servitude. The text continues: “if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient” (verse 47). The terms stranger (ger)and sojourner (toshab) are connected to the terms used in verse 45. That is, these “acquired” foreign servants could potentially better themselves to the point of hiring servants themselves. (Of course, an alien’s hiring an Israelite servant was prohibited.) In principle, allpersons in servitude within Israel could be released, unless they had committed a crime.9

Fourth, in some cases, foreign servants could become elevated and apparently fully equal to Israelite citizens.For instance, Caleb’s descendant — Sheshan’s daugher — ended up marrying an Egyptian servant: “Now Sheshan had no sons, only daughters. And Sheshan had an Egyptian servant whose name was Jarha. Sheshan gave his daughter to Jarha his servant in marriage, and she bore him Atta” (1 Chronicles 2:34,35, NASB). Here we have marriage between a foreign servant and an established freeperson with quite a pedigree. The key implication is that inheritance rights would fall to the servant’s offspring, Atta.

Fifth, God required Israel to give foreign runaway slaves protection within Israel’s borders and not let them be returned to their harsh masters (Deuteronomy 23:15,16); kidnapping slaves was also prohibited (Exodus 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7).Thus, we need to understand Leviticus 25 with these general humanizing protections in mind.

Sixth, since non-Israelites were not to acquire land in Israel, homeless and landless foreigners would not have much choice but to attach themselves to Israelite households as servants, which might have been the only alternative possible — and not necessarily a bad alternative.John Goldingay writes: “Perhaps many people would be reasonably happy to settle for being long-term or lifelong servants. Servants do count as part of the family.” He adds: “One can even imagine people who started off as debt servants volunteering to become permanent servants because they love their master and his household” (cp. Deuteronomy 15:16,17).10

Seventh, various scholars see the “Hebrew” servant of Exodus 21:2 as a foreigner without political allegiances who has come to Israel.Note thathe was not locked in to lifelong servitude (unless he chose this); he had to be released in the seventh year — presumably to go back to his country of origin.

These, then, are some of the sticky Old Testament servitude passages, and reasoned explanations for them. In the next issue of Enrichment, I will look at slavery in the New Testament.

Richard L. Dresselhaus

PAUL COPAN, Ph.D., West Palm Beach, Florida, is professor and Pledger Family Chair of Philosophy and Ethics at Palm Beach Atlantic University in West Palm Beach, Florida. He is author and editor of a number of books, including When God Goes to Starbucks, True for You, But Not for Me, That’s Just Your Interpretation, Creation Out of Nothing, and Is God A Moral Monster? Making Sense Of The Old Testament God.He is also president of the Evangelical Philosophical Society.

Notes

Scripture quotations marked NET are taken from New English Translation [computer file]: NET Bible. — electronic edition. — Dallas, Texas: Biblical Studies Press, 1998. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
Scripture quotations marked (ESV) are from The Holy Bible, English Standard Version® (ESV®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
Gregory C. Chirichigno, “Debt-Slavery in Israel and the Ancient Near East,” JSOT Supplement Series 141 (Sheffield: University of Sheffield Press, 1993), 155–63.
This passage incorrectly implies polygamy or concubinage. The daughter was to be married either to the master (who was divorced or widowed) or to the master’s marriageable son — not as a backup wife to provide offspring. We are already told in verse 8 that the man does not choose to take the servant woman as his wife. In that case, we should understand verse 10 to mean that he marries another instead of the servant woman. Also, verse 11 is sometimes misleadingly translated “conjugal rights”; it more likely means “oil” or “shelter/protection.” On this, see chapter 11 in Paul Copan, Is God a Moral Monster?
Chirichigno, Chapter 6.
Scripture quotations taken from the New American Standard Bible®, Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission (www.Lockman.org).
Roy Gane, Leviticus, Numbers, NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2004), 441–2.
Goldingay,Israel’s Life (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity, 2009), 464 and note.
Walter C. Kaiser, “A Principlizing Model,” in Four Views of Moving Beyond the Bible to Theology, eds. Stanley N. Gundry and Gary T. Meadors (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2009), 40.
Ibid., 465–6.

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#144 Lister

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:04 PM

@_@; this thread is making me dizzy.

You could spend a long time (and it seems many of you have) reviewing what is said in holy texts, what is said by authorities on holy texts, and what is said by authorities within Atheism... Seems like a good idea if you want to completely miss the whole point of Faith and Non-Faith.

Shadow, they’re attacking you because you get so totally hung up on details. You get so hung up that they in turn get just as hung up! Then you guys go back and forth... bunch of people ganging up on Shadow and then him breaking every single detail down and trying his best to refute it.

It must drive you guy’s nuts!

There are plenty of details in the Bible to argue over and there are plenty of inconsistencies between religions and within religions. It would drive me bonkers to delve into all that detail and to be honest it doesn’t look like doing this is helping any of you.

Shadow if you didn’t agonize over every little detail you wouldn’t be ganged up on like you are being presently.

Let me try and turn the conversation if I may (or start over)...

I would say if you wanted to reverse a Theists position on the existence of God you would only have to expose them to some horrible trauma that would break their faith; or show them directly (through their own personal experience) that God is somehow not right for them.

I still maintain that no reasonable person will ever believe completely that God does not exist unless they had experienced said Trauma to force them into that belief. (And if you ask me for proof Shadow... so help me FSM!)

But really what is faith anyways? You guys are so hung up on bloody evidence why don’t you tell me how you actually feel for once. What is faith to you? Drop that dictionary Shadow!

To me faith is the belief in something without having proof for it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that unless you use it to justify a personal or social wrong or force that belief on others. Sadly people don’t usually go along with that hence why much of modern religion is vehemently opposed by Atheists.

This personal and social wrong committed by Theists (like 911 for example) is a perfect example of how you could turn a Theist into an Atheist.

#145 shadowhawk

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:06 AM

Lister: I would say if you wanted to reverse a Theists position on the existence of God you would only have to expose them to some horrible trauma that would break their faith; or show them directly (through their own personal experience) that God is somehow not right for them.



I have found that trauma can increase ones faith. Christ should have been an Atheist if you are right.

I still maintain that no reasonable person will ever believe completely that God does not exist unless they had experienced said Trauma to force them into that belief. (And if you ask me for proof Shadow... so help me FSM!)



Proof? ;)

But really what is faith anyways? You guys are so hung up on bloody evidence why don’t you tell me how you actually feel for once. What is faith to you? Drop that dictionary Shadow!


I have shared what God is like to me. How I experienced becoming a Christian.
http://www.longecity...306#entry500306

To me faith is the belief in something without having proof for it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that unless you use it to justify a personal or social wrong or force that belief on others. Sadly people don’t usually go along with that hence why much of modern religion is vehemently opposed by Atheists.


That is not faith for Christians. Faith is belief in the evidence. No evidence is exhaustive.

This personal and social wrong committed by Theists (like 911 for example) is a perfect example of how you could turn a Theist into an Atheist.


Every human group has sinned in the Christian view, even Atheists. Do Atheists turn into Theists because of their sins? Some do.

#146 Lister

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

You are absolutely right Shadow that Trauma can turn someone towards faith. But if you were to use a horrible movie as an example “Signs” you would see the example of a husband that lost his wife to a horrible accident and that ended his faith. At the same time after the Aliens left (Another Trauma) he returned to his faith which proves us both right... even if it is a pretty bad movie.

I know that when I was going to church there were plenty of Christians who believed that Faith meant believing in something without evidence. I don’t know if every Christian believes that but I can certainly attest to being involved with large communities of people who believed that.

At least the community of born again Christians that I was a part of believed that about faith. We’re talking 1000s of people here. Even my minister would stand up and preach that.

If you’re saying Faith is the belief in Evidence (the bible and such) then I can say you’re insulting a lot of Christians who believe otherwise.

By the way, from the dictionary: “Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof...”

#147 gamesguru

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:14 AM

For the record, not all personal criticisms constitute ad hominems, but only those which are unfounded.

And yes, trauma disheartens at least as many people as it inspires. It can invigorate with vital force, or drain the same force. Personally, my own battle with lingering depression has, at times, led me to hope there is a fatherly figure who is watching out for me, and who will guarantee me a splendid afterlife, but, on the other hand, at different times, it has also led me to feel as if life is brief and powerless, only to be followed by a slow, sure, pitiless, dark, dreamless sleep...death...inexorable and unmitigated despair. I just have difficulty convincing myself that a caring God would create so many people who reckon that "whatever I dislike is bad (evil) for me". Why wouldn't he make everyone like everything? This would, in my view, resolve the problem of evil by dispelling misery and despair caused by undesired life situations.
And simply believing in the afterlife doesn't guarantee a person will be cheery about this life; indeed many Christians suffer from depression and a miserable conception of life...they sometimes feel as if this life is worthless, since the myths claim that in order to be a means to the afterlife, this life must be lived in strict accordance with Christian morals, which are frankly boring and worthless. Sometimes they also question the idea of the afterlife, suggesting immortality is a disgusting concept, since something can only be useful as a means to something else, and if that something else is neither a means to something greater nor to an end to be valued in itself, then its usefulness is illusory, and since the afterlife is an end in itself, with nothing greater to be ever obtained.

I also agree with Lister on his point that Christians often have faith in God aside from belief in the legitimacy of Biblical claims. To simplify the job of forming a seemingly coherent belief system, they discard the hope of proving the truth of their creeds; for them it is enough to hope that they are true, that God exists, that Jesus is our savior, and that the Biblical accounts are valid and sound. They do not seem to realize that human testimony is fallible, and therefore unreliable, so that all religious hymns and books and proverbs are not the original message, but have been potentially conflated with countless falsehoods along their journey. While your definition of faith might not agree with Nietzsche's (and the Christians to which Lister refers) that "faith means not wanting to know", if you're going to insist that faith means knowing through logic and evidence, then for the sake of the self-consistency of your belief system, as a prerequisite for your belief you'll have to prove the validity of biblical tales through logic and evidence...a task which you as yet appear not to have completed.
This gets back to the burden of proof and the presumption of atheism. For the sake of clarity, Shadowhawk, please answer one question. Would raising doubt about your theistic conviction be sufficient to reverse your position to theism, or would that only put you in the middle...agnosticism, where I currently reside...or would it not even put you in the middle?

Edited by dasheenster, 11 August 2012 - 03:18 AM.


#148 Lister

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:37 AM

Yeah Dash I don’t know. Shadow probably has a doubting voice in his head to which he has to constantly silence by watching an ever increasing amounts of documentaries and reading loads of written info proving that his position is correct.

He keeps shutting down that doubting voice and he treats other external doubters in a similar fashion. You could asking him to prove his faith all day and he will… on and on he will go and he will get more and more frustrated along the way.

You asked him whether he could prove his entire faith right and whether he will change his religion if he can’t… I would imagine he’ll ask for specific things to prove right or some such thing.

No. Shadow won’t change his mind by the burden of evidence. I would say his faith is based on the burden of evidence according to his responses thus far. So asking him to provide more evidence is just asking him to strengthen his faith further.

But that’s really a bottomless pit isn’t it? You could keep proving things right all day by spending enormous amounts of time convincing yourself that what your hearing is correct. But why do you need to prove everything right? If you’re faithful then it’s right. Leave it alone!

#149 mikeinnaples

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:48 PM

mikennaples: I didn't read what you copy and pasted from another website. I asked a question directed towards people that take the bible literally, I did not ask you specifically or say that you own slaves.... complete failure on your part there bud.


Nonsense, you asked me,“Do you own slaves?” As for your ignorant characterization of the hermeneutics used by theists in interpreting the Bible I suppose you think people who read anything take it literally. What do you mean by “literally?” Let me quote another section on Old Testament “slavery,” passages. I know you don’t have time to read it because I suspect you are not interested in an answer.


Again, I didn't read what you cut and pasted from another website. I will only respond to 'your' words as I am more than capable of doing my own google searching if I want to see your regurgitated nonsense.

Again I didn't ask you specifically. I directed the question towards people that take the words if the Bible literally. It is there in my original question for the world to see no matter how much you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and wish it to be otherwise.

Now if you 'do' take the bible literally, then yes it was directed towards 'you' in general. There is a very specific reason why I quoted that verse from the bible. Why are the words of the bible ignored when it comes to things like slavery or the general ideology towards women.... written off as being out dated, or *laughing at this* interpreted to mean something else? Why are they in turn taken literally (or even worse *again laughing at this* interpreted to mean something negative) towards ideologies, lifestyles, or individuals that are 'morally unsound', well according to the church.

An prime example of this is gay marriage. It doesn't matter if the people involved are 'morally' sound in every facet of their lives, devoutly religious, and honest/good people. According to some churches, they are sinners and are going to hell. It is so sad and pathetic. As a heterosexual atheist, I will freely admit that I don't understand how someone could be in that kind of a relationship with a member of the same sex. The difference between me, and say a roman catholic priest... is that I am not threatened by it, afraid of it, nor will I pass judgement of a persons characters or morality based on their love life. There is a key word there that so many miss ... 'Love'.

Quoting one of my favorite people...

"Why is it that Johnny Spaghetti Stain in fucking Georgia can knock a woman up, legally be married to her, and then beat the shit out of her, but these two intelligent, sophisticated writers who have been together for 20 years can't get married?" - Seth Macfarlane

#150 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:50 AM

You are absolutely right Shadow that Trauma can turn someone towards faith. But if you were to use a horrible movie as an example “Signs” you would see the example of a husband that lost his wife to a horrible accident and that ended his faith. At the same time after the Aliens left (Another Trauma) he returned to his faith which proves us both right... even if it is a pretty bad movie.

I know that when I was going to church there were plenty of Christians who believed that Faith meant believing in something without evidence. I don’t know if every Christian believes that but I can certainly attest to being involved with large communities of people who believed that.

At least the community of born again Christians that I was a part of believed that about faith. We’re talking 1000s of people here. Even my minister would stand up and preach that.

If you’re saying Faith is the belief in Evidence (the bible and such) then I can say you’re insulting a lot of Christians who believe otherwise.

By the way, from the dictionary: “Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof...”



All of our beliefs, no matter what they are, rest ultimately on beliefs accepted by faith. Everything ultimately comes from God including everything a human is capable of comprehending. Everything, Faith is both a gift of God in that it is a way of seeing the cosmos and is involved in comprehending everything. Faith is not separate from evidence but is a gift from God, involved in understanding the evidence. Without evidence there would be little for the spirit to grasp. Christians argue this is one reason science rose in the west and one reasons so many leading scientists were Christians.

Born Again Christians believe in a reasonable faith. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/ This faith is not without evidence.

I am sure that you can find a small percentage of Christians that have the view you express but it is very small. It is one thing to not demand proof for faith but another to say faith does not care about proof.





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