2 votes
Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:14 AM
Lister: You asked him whether he could prove his entire faith right and whether he will change his religion if he can’t… I would imagine he’ll ask for specific things to prove right or some such thing.
Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:46 AM
mikennaples: I didn't read what you copy and pasted from another website. I asked a question directed towards people that take the bible literally, I did not ask you specifically or say that you own slaves.... complete failure on your part there bud.
Nonsense, you asked me,“Do you own slaves?” As for your ignorant characterization of the hermeneutics used by theists in interpreting the Bible I suppose you think people who read anything take it literally. What do you mean by “literally?” Let me quote another section on Old Testament “slavery,” passages. I know you don’t have time to read it because I suspect you are not interested in an answer.
Again, I didn't read what you cut and pasted from another website. I will only respond to 'your' words as I am more than capable of doing my own google searching if I want to see your regurgitated nonsense.
Again I didn't ask you specifically. I directed the question towards people that take the words if the Bible literally. It is there in my original question for the world to see no matter how much you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and wish it to be otherwise.
Now if you 'do' take the bible literally, then yes it was directed towards 'you' in general. There is a very specific reason why I quoted that verse from the bible. Why are the words of the bible ignored when it comes to things like slavery or the general ideology towards women.... written off as being out dated, or *laughing at this* interpreted to mean something else? Why are they in turn taken literally (or even worse *again laughing at this* interpreted to mean something negative) towards ideologies, lifestyles, or individuals that are 'morally unsound', well according to the church.
An prime example of this is gay marriage. It doesn't matter if the people involved are 'morally' sound in every facet of their lives, devoutly religious, and honest/good people. According to some churches, they are sinners and are going to hell. It is so sad and pathetic. As a heterosexual atheist, I will freely admit that I don't understand how someone could be in that kind of a relationship with a member of the same sex. The difference between me, and say a roman catholic priest... is that I am not threatened by it, afraid of it, nor will I pass judgement of a persons characters or morality based on their love life. There is a key word there that so many miss ... 'Love'.
Quoting one of my favorite people...
"Why is it that Johnny Spaghetti Stain in fucking Georgia can knock a woman up, legally be married to her, and then beat the shit out of her, but these two intelligent, sophisticated writers who have been together for 20 years can't get married?" - Seth Macfarlane
Edited by shadowhawk, 14 August 2012 - 01:52 AM.
Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:06 AM
Edited by Lister, 14 August 2012 - 02:07 AM.
Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:56 PM
Should I take you literally. NOW gay marriage! What do you mean by "literally?" Who ignored slavery?. I posted quite a bit on it but you can't handle books. videos, audio, quotes from anyone, etc. etc.. OK but you are not telling the truth. Sweeping charges of all kinds. Glad you aren't threatened. I didn't say anything about of most of this stuff. Wierd
Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:55 PM
Should I take you literally. NOW gay marriage! What do you mean by "literally?" Who ignored slavery?. I posted quite a bit on it but you can't handle books. videos, audio, quotes from anyone, etc. etc.. OK but you are not telling the truth. Sweeping charges of all kinds. Glad you aren't threatened. I didn't say anything about of most of this stuff. Wierd
Stop frothing and babbling. You are not making any sense.
Posted 15 August 2012 - 02:50 AM
Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:11 PM
More wierd and off topic to boot. Ho Humm
It's not off topic to tell you that your response to me made no sense. Looks like you remembered your meds this time at least.
Edited by Lister, 15 August 2012 - 08:23 PM.
Posted 15 August 2012 - 11:45 PM
Lister: Do you think you could take a stance that is counter to your beliefs? I was willing to stand up and defend Creationism on a logical stand point which is definitely counter to my beliefs. I did this because I don’t want to limit myself to arguments that only support my beliefs. This makes my beliefs weak.
Edit: FYI Shadow I've read how you became a Christian 3 times now. What I get is that due to your family and your surroundings you shut yourself off from your spiritual side. When you finally gave into it everything changed around you and you associated this to meeting God.
Unlike others here I’m not trying to say that God is WRONG or that Religion is Wholly WRONG. What I’m trying to say though is that Spirituality has a place among Atheists.
I didn’t stop being a Christian because I lost my faith. I stopped because I felt it was limiting my faith. To me God isn’t some small thing you can put into a little bubble called Religion. I would argue that I’m more spiritual than you. I’m against much of Religion in an Atheistic way because I think it’s a cap, a burden on faith.
Your Burden of Evidence is a waste of time. Recognize what you see around you and don't assume 100% truths. God being a single entity is just one idea... One possibility. Stop looking everywhere for validation to your beliefs and just believe; or don't.
Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:26 AM
Edited by Lister, 16 August 2012 - 12:27 AM.
Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:00 AM
“Yes you can do this but I prefer to keep my mind involved. There is nothing like 100% proof but that does not mean we need no proof. Atheists claim they need none while demanding 100% from Theists. How convenient!"
True. Hence the point of my topic “Prove me Wrong”.
I guess you like to be a book; I like to be a sheet of paper. I expose myself in a raw, unprepared way. I allow structure to be built and destroyed as I walk the path of my life; whereas you build and repair, disassemble and destroy based on your intake and based on a pre-determined path laid out for you.
In my mind there cannot be 100% proof. Seeking that proof is futile at best. Perfection for example cannot exist. You can’t say that something is perfect because perfection is extremely subjective. The bible has a lot to say about perfection and one could say that only God can know perfection. But then belief in Perfection has to be done without evidence. There is nothing in this world we can call perfect with absolute certainty and thus we have no proof of it. Due to faiths reliance on Proof we’re left with a gap or crack.
God Fearing… Doing right to go to Heaven. Hell as a concept. Angels, Job, Matthew, Exodus… In the end the dots don’t connect. My only choice if I wish to remain spiritual is to fill in those gaps with “I don’t know.” I’m not filling that with God, Miracles or other biblical things because that’s too easy and it really doesn’t answer anything.
I’m patient and I want to know for myself. Instead of looking at the holy books and involving myself in religion I’ve said “Screw it” and exposed myself to life raw and unrestrained.
When I was a Christian I had certainty and safety. It blinded me and restricted me but it allowed me to go on without feeling empty; devoid of answers. I feel now that I can see things as they truly are. And what I see is not sinners and saints; I see people. I see a world that evolved into what it is. I don’t see a Scale with Good on one side and Evil on the other. I see an infinite number of choices and their results.
Grief as we were talking about is an example of something that would restore or strip someone of their faith. I could expand on that and say it’s the unknown that strips or restores someone of their faith. When your wife is killed in a senseless act without answers what do you do?
To me I can almost see reason in everything. It all makes sense. I don’t need God to be involved for the world to exist and continue to exist as it is. I stripped myself of certainty and instead of giving up I search for reason. I found it and that’s Balance. It’s the simplest of ideas. It’s blindingly obvious that logic connects everything. You don’t need God. It’s harmonious and it connects you to deeper meaning in life.
When you can look at the beauty of the world and associate that not to a creator but to the struggles of billions of years of life, you can come to realize something. God didn’t make this, we did. If you take God out of the equation and find a source without him… you can then put him back in and find him in a totally different place.
That’s what it means to Grow Up. Awareness of God is not the highest thing we can do. We need to be aware of ourselves. That’s where we can truly find greatness.
Edited by shadowhawk, 22 August 2012 - 02:05 AM.
Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:24 AM
How do you know your conversion experience was not simple auto-hypnosis or something? I mean, waking up feeling somewhat different does not sound like a miracle to me as it happens quite frequently with no god involved...I was raised an Atheist by two Atheist parents. When I was in the military I had a conversion experience while riding on the back a bus. I have written about it.
Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:40 PM
How do you know your conversion experience was not simple auto-hypnosis or something? I mean, waking up feeling somewhat different does not sound like a miracle to me as it happens quite frequently with no god involved...I was raised an Atheist by two Atheist parents. When I was in the military I had a conversion experience while riding on the back a bus. I have written about it.
I did not say it was a miracle. Where is this coming from? 
Seriously take it however you want!
Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:48 PM
It's actually not off topic but that's ok if you didn't read the whole thing.
Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:36 AM
It's actually not off topic but that's ok if you didn't read the whole thing.
I did read your entire testimony. How does it relate to the topic?
What would it take to reverse an theist's position on the existence of God?
Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:12 AM
How about the realization that religions are largely interchangeable, i.e. almost identical experiences are available through non-compatible religions?I did read your entire testimony. How does it relate to the topic?
What would it take to reverse an theist's position on the existence of God?
Posted 23 August 2012 - 04:03 PM
How about the realization that religions are largely interchangeable, i.e. almost identical experiences are available through non-compatible religions?I did read your entire testimony. How does it relate to the topic?
What would it take to reverse an theist's position on the existence of God?
Edited by DukeNukem, 23 August 2012 - 04:03 PM.
Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:13 PM
DukeNukem: Believers don't seem to be bothered by the idea that there are dozens of significant religions (over 2000 in total), usually based on local beliefs, but science in universal and it doesn't matter where you're born, evolution is still evolution, and quantum physics is still quantum physics.
DukeNukem: This alone should tell anyone that religion is man made.
DukeNukem: If there really was an all-powerful god who wants people to worship him (is he really that needy???), then why would he let people be so scattered and misled in their beliefs worldwide??? Stupid stupid stupid.
Posted 24 August 2012 - 01:02 AM
Reason obviously doesn't play a role for you. So why why would anyone here be interested in a debate with you?
Posted 24 August 2012 - 01:19 AM
Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:21 AM
The Front-Loading theory is interesting and the way Dr. Stephen Meyers puts it down is also interesting... I can see the materials that make up DNA can't just become DNA spontaneously in short periods of time; but it doesn't seem as though Dr. Meyers is willing to dive very far into the theorized age of the universe. (unless he does this in his book)
Given Billions of years couldn't life form on its own? I don't think we know enough to give a definitive theory either way. We KNOW that evolution happens on the short run for sure and this is likely why many Theists are allowing Evolution while retaining their belief in god. But how did such a complex thing as DNA come into existence on its own...
I feel as though you almost need to be a tenured professor to approach some of these issues. Shadow I’d be willing to have a great conversation over these specific videos if you posted only 1 per thread rather than using them to prove your statements. Each video seems to have a thread worth of material in it. Trying to force your reader to watch a half an hour video just to prove 3 lines of what you said right is a bit unreasonable.
Back on topic though as was somewhat requested earlier; If I were gay and wanting to get married to my partner and I wasn’t allowed because people from my church shut the process down I might consider that God doesn’t exist. Why would God not want me to be happy?
Also if I was a religious woman who was accused of adultery and had my hands cut off I might consider that God didn’t exist...
If I was in a war torn area where two sections of Christianity were committing genocide in the name of the lord I may come to believe God doesn’t exist.
The fact “Blasphemy” exists is another example of religion casting out its members.
It’s all well and good when you’ve got evidence to prove that God may exist but if religion is promoting extreme violence, hate and a pursuit of ignorance then you may believe that God doesn’t exist; or at least God has nothing to do with Religion.
Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:29 PM
Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:53 PM
From SCIENCE magazineWhat a mountain of drivel. The decode material has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on issues of religion. His misrepresentation of the supposed previous position of scientists and their subsequent conversion, is a monstrous straw man. Dishonesty on this scale makes it even more difficult to take any pronouncements by such people seriously.
Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:48 AM
Edited by johnross47, 11 September 2012 - 08:38 AM.
Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:37 PM
johross47: The encode project material clearly has major implications for the understanding of genetics, but it has none for religion/superstition or for creationists or any of the other weirdos rushing to reinterpret reality. The idea that these areas of the genome contain switches and other operational material rather than junk has been around for some time now. This is just a massive confirmation of the scale and nature of that material, not something totally new or unexpected. It has no implications for anything here. It has no bearing on a theist's willingness to confront reality.
By the way; which bit of your christianity is it that makes you such a compulsive screamer of irrelevant infantile abuse? If you presented us all with a detailed and erudite analysis of the logical and evidential flaws in other people's arguments we might be more convinced by your claims of superiority, and if you did it politely we would think you were a decent human being as well. It's not the only requirement for a christian but it goes a long way towards it.
Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:03 PM
Posted 12 September 2012 - 11:27 PM
Once again you have shown yourself to be deeply stupidly dishonest. You quoted me in your cheap nasty response. You don't seem to aware that all of this is public so your lies are open to everyone to see. Anyway....I'm off for a six month painting holiday in the south of France. I'll have more amusing things to do than rattling your cage. I don't imagine this topic will have moved on any when I come back.
Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:01 PM
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