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b vitamins - the negatives

b vitamins

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#1 dear mrclock

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:23 AM


can you guys help me compile all the negatives (nevermind the mostly positive of them) in one thread so we can always keep be aware that b vitamins no matter how good they can be and help they also can have really bad negative effects.

so far from reading the thread i found out for a first time that;

b12 - can cause cancer with large doses through extended period

benfotiamine - fat soluble thiamine can cause cancer over long period

folic acid - not sure of natural form, but synthetic can cause cancer with large doses over time

b6 - can cause periperhal neuropathy with large doses over time



couldnt find other negatives of other Bs, if anyone can formulate a complete table with all their ONLY side effects.

tnx

#2 pamojja

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:35 AM

Seems like you are mostly asking about really negative effects animals under poor lab conditions have to endure? ;)

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#3 dear mrclock

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:50 AM

uh ? im asking about negative effects on the most widely used supplement like the b vitamins. they are in EVERYTHING now days. and no, the negative effects for those i posted i got from urls to ncbi on this exact forum. i guess when im not too lazy ill go through the forum and repaste the urls. unless others add more to it before that.

#4 malden

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:02 AM

if there is nothing.. mayby it leads to nothing. if there something it will only make it worst

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21867542

Control of prostate cancer associated with withdrawal of a supplement containing folic acid, L-methyltetrahydrofolate and vitamin B12: a case report.

Tisman G, Garcia A.

Source

Whittier Cancer Research Building, 13025 Bailey Street, Whittier, CA 90601, USA. glennmd@gmail.com.

Abstract

ABSTRACT:
INTRODUCTION:

This is the first report of possible direct stimulation of hormone-resistant prostate cancer or interference of docetaxel cytotoxicity of prostate cancer in a patient with biochemical relapse of prostatic-specific antigen. This observation is of clinical and metabolic importance, especially at a time when more than 80 countries have fortified food supplies with folic acid and some contemplate further fortification with vitamin B12.
CASE PRESENTATION:

Our patient is a 71-year-old Caucasian man who had been diagnosed in 1997 with prostate cancer, stage T1c, and Gleason score 3+4 = 7. His primary treatment included intermittent androgen deprivation therapy including leuprolide + bicalutamide + deutasteride, ketoconazole + hydrocortisone, nilandrone and flutamide to resistance defined as biochemical relapse of PSA. While undergoing docetaxel therapy to treat a continually increasing prostate-specific antigen level, withdrawal of 10 daily doses of a supplement containing 500 μg of vitamin B12 as cyanocobalamin, as well as 400 μg of folic acid as pteroylglutamic acid and 400 μg of L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate for a combined total of 800 μg of mixed folates, was associated with a return to a normal serum prostatic-specific antigen level.
CONCLUSION:

This case report illustrates the importance of the effects of supplements containing large amounts of folic acid, L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate, and cyanocobalamin on the metabolism of prostate cancer cells directly and/or B vitamin interference with docetaxel efficacy. Physicians caring for patients with prostate cancer undergoing watchful waiting, hormone therapy, and/or chemotherapy should consider the possible acceleration of tumor growth and/or metastasis and the development of drug resistance associated with supplement ingestion. We describe several pathways of metabolic and epigenetic interactions that could affect the observed changes in serum levels of prostate-specific antigen.

#5 dear mrclock

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:19 AM

yeh i read this last week i believe. thanks for posting it.

#6 niner

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 03:50 PM

Here is some information on possible problems with B vitamins. I'm not in favor of megadosing anything. In most cases, the RDA, along with consideration of your diet via a tool like Cron-O-Meter is the best starting point for supplementation. I would be particularly leery of synthetic folate, which isn't even the same molecule as natural folate. There is an attempt to distinguish the two by calling one of them "folate" and the other one "folic acid", but that is a hijacking of chemical terminology that attempts to change the meaning of said terminology, and is patently bogus. I don't remember which is which anyway. Synthetic folate is associated with a lot of problems, but I don't think there has ever been a problematic association made with food folate. "Food folate" doesn't mean the supplemental folate that's added to candy breakfast cereals; that's synthetic, and it's added to a lot of industrial food that is best avoided for a number of reasons.

#7 protoject

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:07 PM

If I eat a food high in folate, I have no problems at any dose. If I take a folate supplement, I have really horrible depressive mood swings where I become almost suicidal, which is strange because everyone says it's supposed to make you feel better. I notice that with a few B vitamins actually and I dont get the effect otherwise.

#8 kismet

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:48 PM

b12 - can cause cancer with large doses through extended period

Although, I don't think the evidence for this is good at all. Most studies were combinations with folic acid for which we have a good mechanism to explain cancer promotion by itself and at RDAish doses, and the dietary b12 epidemiology finds protective and harmful effects.

Still I wouldn't rule it out... just get 1.5 to 2.0 x the RDA and be done!

folates
http://www.longecity...ick-to-the-rda/

thiamines, benfo-
http://www.longecity...l__benfotiamine

b6
http://www.longecity...ine#entry382705

Edited by kismet, 02 August 2012 - 10:56 PM.

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#9 dear mrclock

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 02:04 AM

thanks for the urls. if anyone has any other info on the other b vitamins please always share.

#10 dear mrclock

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:04 AM

i was reading about benfotiamine being cancer causer, what about other thiamine supplements ? any ideas...

#11 Vyse

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:20 AM

If I eat a food high in folate, I have no problems at any dose. If I take a folate supplement, I have really horrible depressive mood swings where I become almost suicidal, which is strange because everyone says it's supposed to make you feel better. I notice that with a few B vitamins actually and I dont get the effect otherwise.


you might have histadelia if its a real condition

Edited by Vyse, 07 August 2012 - 01:33 AM.


#12 dear mrclock

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:07 AM

anyone has idea if only benfotiamine can cause cancer or any thiamines in high doses can do the same, like the mostly synthetic ones like thiamine HCL ?

#13 Joe Cohen

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:55 PM

High-dose (300 mg) niacinamide causes oxidative stress and impaired glucose tolerance. This dosage isn't much different than regular B complex dosages. Google post by Paul Jaminet.

Edited by Joe Cohen, 18 August 2012 - 04:58 PM.


#14 dear mrclock

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:49 PM

i believe niacinamide is the synthetic niacin right ?

#15 Hebbeh

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:30 PM

High-dose (300 mg) niacinamide causes oxidative stress and impaired glucose tolerance. This dosage isn't much different than regular B complex dosages. Google post by Paul Jaminet.


http://www.longecity...candida-and-b3/

#16 Joe Cohen

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

i believe niacinamide is the synthetic niacin right ?


Nope. Body produces it in vivo from niacin. Thorne research, a very good company IMO, has 130 mg of it in their B complex. I think it's the best form available. But like anything else the dosage matters. I was surprised to see impaired glucose tolerance at only 300 mg.

Edited by Joe Cohen, 19 August 2012 - 02:29 AM.


#17 Kevnzworld

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:53 PM

anyone has idea if only benfotiamine can cause cancer or any thiamines in high doses can do the same, like the mostly synthetic ones like thiamine HCL ?


Benfotiamine does not " cause " cancer. It is a transketolase ( TK ) activator. It is interesting that patients with diabetes have low levels of thiamine and transketolase , but have a higher incidence of cancer. Benfotiamine is often administered to these patients to inhibit glycation and it's Ill affects.
The issue is that existing tumors use TKTL1 to accelerate growth. I haven't found anything in the literature that says that benfotiamine activates this form of TK. It has been shown that Thiamine supplementation in mice with preexisting tumors, showed accelerated tumor growth. Yet, if high dose supplementation started 7 days before the mice had tumors , growth of the tumors were diminished.


A clear thiamine stimulatory effect on tumour growth was found in a range of thiamine concentrations between 12.5 and 75 times the RDA, with a maximum effect (164% of cell proliferation increase with respect to controls) at a dose of 25 times the RDA. Interestingly, the dose–response curve shows a dual thiamine effect depending on the doses. Thus, a high overdose of thiamine, rather than promoting cell growth actually produces a slight decrease in tumour proliferation. To evaluate whether a high thiamine overdose could be of therapeutic interest as a preventive cancer treatment, we performed experiments in which different thiamine doses were administered to mice from day 7 before tumour inoculation until day 8 after tumour inoculation. We found that a thiamine overdose of 2500 times the RDA can produce an inhibitory effect on tumour growth of 36% as compared to control animals.


The does " benfotiamine " cause cancer argument reminds me of the does testosterone hormone therapy cause prostate cancer discussion. The state of the current knowledge is that supplemented testosterone doesn't cause, and may prevent prostate cancer. We also know that existing prostate cancer can use testosterone to grow, hence the use of antiandrogenic drugs to fight prostate cancer.
I am still taking benfotiamine , albeit in smaller (75 mg ) doses.

Edited by Kevnzworld, 19 August 2012 - 05:54 PM.


#18 dear mrclock

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:25 PM

kevnzworld, how long have you been taking for benfotiamine and is it for diabetes ? can you tell me how you feel on it in general, does it have side effects of any type long run ?

#19 Kevnzworld

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:16 PM

kevnzworld, how long have you been taking for benfotiamine and is it for diabetes ? can you tell me how you feel on it in general, does it have side effects of any type long run ?


I have been taking 300 mg in divided doses as part of an overall antiglycation regimen for maybe 7 years. My blood sugars were considered normal, but thanks to metformin, chromium, and green coffee bean extract, both fasting and post prandial levels are lower. ( 86, 100 approx ).
My HBA1C is now 5.2 ..I'm working to get it under 5
Ive read about benfotiamine extensively, and I've decided to keep taking it, but at a lower dose. If I contracted cancer I would discontinue it. I think the long term positive's are strong enough , given the current science to continue. I drew the analogy with testosterone because the " does
it cause cancer " arguments are similar. I also supplement testosterone..
This is a supplement that has been used for years in Europe as a prescription before being marketed as a supplement in the US..
As the science evolves, so does my regime!



#20 dear mrclock

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:22 PM

for the experts, i have several questions regarding b vits.

are the synthetic thiamine mononitrate vs hydrochloride any different, either one better or one worse ?

i know niacin as niacinamide, but wtf is inositol hexaniacinate ?

whats different between pyridoxine hydrochloride vs pyridoxal 5' phosphate & pyridoxine alpha- ketoglutarate hydrochloride ?

any supplements containing folate natural form vs the usual folic acid synthetic ?


any help greatly appreciated tnx.
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#21 dear mrclock

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:31 AM

hmm was wondering about benfotiamine... does it help with kidney problems at all ? i read it helps with diebetic kidney related problems but what about general, maybe it benefits kidney disease ?

#22 dear mrclock

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:05 AM

ok those two urls fixed this problem ;

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22792314

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22446172

those are this year brand new studies and it seems benfotiamine has no positives but suspected negatives from threads on this forum. :/

#23 Nootropic Cat

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 08:22 AM

I'm currently taking methylfolate (1000mcg/day) P5P (50mg/day) and methylcobalamin (500mcg/day) with the idea of improving my cholesterol profile (it's not terrible but could be better) and bringing homocysteine down (likely necessary though I haven't got tested yet). Decided that the risk/reward justified using these forms/doses temporarily.

Any opinions?

#24 hamishm00

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:55 AM

ok those two urls fixed this problem ;

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22792314

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22446172

those are this year brand new studies and it seems benfotiamine has no positives but suspected negatives from threads on this forum. :/



Those studies are only relevant to diabetics. In any event that are also studies that had different results to the ones you have linked (such as this one: http://tbinet.org/ds...enfotiamine.pdf although I admit there were a small number of participants in that trial).

There are other studies that have been done on non-diabetic patients which have been encouraging. It seems possible that Benfotiamine administration increases the levels of intracellular thiamine diphosphate, a cofactor necessary for the activation transketolase, resulting in the reduction of tissue level of AGEs.

More studies are needed.

hmm was wondering about benfotiamine... does it help with kidney problems at all ? i read it helps with diebetic kidney related problems but what about general, maybe it benefits kidney disease ?


Thiamine definitely seems to help in relation to diabetic related kidney disease - Have a look here:

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/7796073.stm


"The journal Diabetologia....study...reported that...300 mg of vitamin B1 taken orally each day consecutively for three months reduced the rate of albumin excretion in type 2 diabetes patients. Albumin excretion rate was dropped by almost 41% from the value noted in the beginning of the study. 35% patients with microalbuminuria restored to normal urinary albumin excretion when treated with thiamine."


#25 dear mrclock

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:27 PM

what you posted doesnt state what form of thiamine has been used. is it benfotiamine or some of the other either natural or various synthetic compounds ??

#26 mikeinnaples

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:37 PM

If I eat a food high in folate, I have no problems at any dose. If I take a folate supplement, I have really horrible depressive mood swings where I become almost suicidal, which is strange because everyone says it's supposed to make you feel better. I notice that with a few B vitamins actually and I dont get the effect otherwise.


B Vitamins and depression....

A person with a MTHFR mutation (or double mutatation) in which case a folic acid supplement will do nothing for you (a 5-MTHF supplement will however) and the resulting SAMe deficiency could be causing depression.

Also, there is some research out there showing issues with bi-polar disorder and folic acid.....

#27 dear mrclock

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:47 AM

is there a way to releive problems arising from high doses of b6 ? i think it needs labels on any supplement containing b6 higher than 50mg amounts so people know what they are doing. cant believe all those years b6 has not been mentioned once on any supplement that too much of it is detrimental. nobody thinks thats extremely unprofesional and there should be lawsuit against any companies that sell megadoses of it and not warn you ??

#28 MrHappy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:32 PM

is there a way to releive problems arising from high doses of b6 ? i think it needs labels on any supplement containing b6 higher than 50mg amounts so people know what they are doing. cant believe all those years b6 has not been mentioned once on any supplement that too much of it is detrimental. nobody thinks thats extremely unprofesional and there should be lawsuit against any companies that sell megadoses of it and not warn you ??


B vitamins are a balancing act and some are antagonistic to others. B6 should be balanced with sufficient B1-3,B5. B vitamins are critical to DNA repair and methylation and there are a number of papers citing antineoplastic activity in various forms of cancer.

However, badly screw up the balance to the point of depletion and you can end up with DNA transcription errors and genotoxicity.

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#29 dear mrclock

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:30 AM

mrhappy i know all about the positive of b vitamins. quite one sided tho how people always concentrate on the positive when it comes to b vitamins. this thread was made to add anything negative about them and it seems people are either unwilling, scared maybe, or just ignorant of the possibility that something we consume in huge amounts in anything available out there can impact them in negative way. sad but true

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#30 MrHappy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:42 PM

I was trying to be balanced (pun intended), as well as outlining the connection with cancer.

The common issues that come into play with B vitamin supplements generally revolve around methylation. Some people are over-methylators, so respond badly to B vitamins, SAM-e, uridine, RNA and other substances that improve methylation. You can check your histamine levels for an indication of whether you are an over-methylator.

There can also be bad reactions for some people who suffer from certain mental illnesses. Some people also have niacin 'flushes' when supplementing.

B12 can cause some people to break out in pimples for a couple of weeks. I suspect it's due to some 'repairs' being carried out, but that's one man's opinion.

Balance is the key and it's a somewhat personal thing.





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