b vitamins - the negatives
dear mrclock 01 Aug 2012
so far from reading the thread i found out for a first time that;
b12 - can cause cancer with large doses through extended period
benfotiamine - fat soluble thiamine can cause cancer over long period
folic acid - not sure of natural form, but synthetic can cause cancer with large doses over time
b6 - can cause periperhal neuropathy with large doses over time
couldnt find other negatives of other Bs, if anyone can formulate a complete table with all their ONLY side effects.
tnx
pamojja 01 Aug 2012
dear mrclock 01 Aug 2012
malden 01 Aug 2012
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21867542
Control of prostate cancer associated with withdrawal of a supplement containing folic acid, L-methyltetrahydrofolate and vitamin B12: a case report.
Tisman G, Garcia A.
Source
Whittier Cancer Research Building, 13025 Bailey Street, Whittier, CA 90601, USA. glennmd@gmail.com.
Abstract
ABSTRACT:
INTRODUCTION:
This is the first report of possible direct stimulation of hormone-resistant prostate cancer or interference of docetaxel cytotoxicity of prostate cancer in a patient with biochemical relapse of prostatic-specific antigen. This observation is of clinical and metabolic importance, especially at a time when more than 80 countries have fortified food supplies with folic acid and some contemplate further fortification with vitamin B12.
CASE PRESENTATION:
Our patient is a 71-year-old Caucasian man who had been diagnosed in 1997 with prostate cancer, stage T1c, and Gleason score 3+4 = 7. His primary treatment included intermittent androgen deprivation therapy including leuprolide + bicalutamide + deutasteride, ketoconazole + hydrocortisone, nilandrone and flutamide to resistance defined as biochemical relapse of PSA. While undergoing docetaxel therapy to treat a continually increasing prostate-specific antigen level, withdrawal of 10 daily doses of a supplement containing 500 μg of vitamin B12 as cyanocobalamin, as well as 400 μg of folic acid as pteroylglutamic acid and 400 μg of L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate for a combined total of 800 μg of mixed folates, was associated with a return to a normal serum prostatic-specific antigen level.
CONCLUSION:
This case report illustrates the importance of the effects of supplements containing large amounts of folic acid, L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate, and cyanocobalamin on the metabolism of prostate cancer cells directly and/or B vitamin interference with docetaxel efficacy. Physicians caring for patients with prostate cancer undergoing watchful waiting, hormone therapy, and/or chemotherapy should consider the possible acceleration of tumor growth and/or metastasis and the development of drug resistance associated with supplement ingestion. We describe several pathways of metabolic and epigenetic interactions that could affect the observed changes in serum levels of prostate-specific antigen.
niner 02 Aug 2012
protoject 02 Aug 2012
kismet 02 Aug 2012
Although, I don't think the evidence for this is good at all. Most studies were combinations with folic acid for which we have a good mechanism to explain cancer promotion by itself and at RDAish doses, and the dietary b12 epidemiology finds protective and harmful effects.b12 - can cause cancer with large doses through extended period
Still I wouldn't rule it out... just get 1.5 to 2.0 x the RDA and be done!
folates
http://www.longecity...ick-to-the-rda/
thiamines, benfo-
http://www.longecity...l__benfotiamine
b6
http://www.longecity...ine#entry382705
Edited by kismet, 02 August 2012 - 10:56 PM.
dear mrclock 03 Aug 2012
dear mrclock 04 Aug 2012
Vyse 07 Aug 2012
If I eat a food high in folate, I have no problems at any dose. If I take a folate supplement, I have really horrible depressive mood swings where I become almost suicidal, which is strange because everyone says it's supposed to make you feel better. I notice that with a few B vitamins actually and I dont get the effect otherwise.
you might have histadelia if its a real condition
Edited by Vyse, 07 August 2012 - 01:33 AM.
dear mrclock 15 Aug 2012
Joe Cohen 18 Aug 2012
Edited by Joe Cohen, 18 August 2012 - 04:58 PM.
Hebbeh 18 Aug 2012
High-dose (300 mg) niacinamide causes oxidative stress and impaired glucose tolerance. This dosage isn't much different than regular B complex dosages. Google post by Paul Jaminet.
http://www.longecity...candida-and-b3/
Joe Cohen 19 Aug 2012
i believe niacinamide is the synthetic niacin right ?
Nope. Body produces it in vivo from niacin. Thorne research, a very good company IMO, has 130 mg of it in their B complex. I think it's the best form available. But like anything else the dosage matters. I was surprised to see impaired glucose tolerance at only 300 mg.
Edited by Joe Cohen, 19 August 2012 - 02:29 AM.
Kevnzworld 19 Aug 2012
anyone has idea if only benfotiamine can cause cancer or any thiamines in high doses can do the same, like the mostly synthetic ones like thiamine HCL ?
Benfotiamine does not " cause " cancer. It is a transketolase ( TK ) activator. It is interesting that patients with diabetes have low levels of thiamine and transketolase , but have a higher incidence of cancer. Benfotiamine is often administered to these patients to inhibit glycation and it's Ill affects.
The issue is that existing tumors use TKTL1 to accelerate growth. I haven't found anything in the literature that says that benfotiamine activates this form of TK. It has been shown that Thiamine supplementation in mice with preexisting tumors, showed accelerated tumor growth. Yet, if high dose supplementation started 7 days before the mice had tumors , growth of the tumors were diminished.
A clear thiamine stimulatory effect on tumour growth was found in a range of thiamine concentrations between 12.5 and 75 times the RDA, with a maximum effect (164% of cell proliferation increase with respect to controls) at a dose of 25 times the RDA. Interestingly, the dose–response curve shows a dual thiamine effect depending on the doses. Thus, a high overdose of thiamine, rather than promoting cell growth actually produces a slight decrease in tumour proliferation. To evaluate whether a high thiamine overdose could be of therapeutic interest as a preventive cancer treatment, we performed experiments in which different thiamine doses were administered to mice from day 7 before tumour inoculation until day 8 after tumour inoculation. We found that a thiamine overdose of 2500 times the RDA can produce an inhibitory effect on tumour growth of 36% as compared to control animals.
The does " benfotiamine " cause cancer argument reminds me of the does testosterone hormone therapy cause prostate cancer discussion. The state of the current knowledge is that supplemented testosterone doesn't cause, and may prevent prostate cancer. We also know that existing prostate cancer can use testosterone to grow, hence the use of antiandrogenic drugs to fight prostate cancer.
I am still taking benfotiamine , albeit in smaller (75 mg ) doses.
Edited by Kevnzworld, 19 August 2012 - 05:54 PM.
dear mrclock 19 Aug 2012
Kevnzworld 19 Aug 2012
kevnzworld, how long have you been taking for benfotiamine and is it for diabetes ? can you tell me how you feel on it in general, does it have side effects of any type long run ?
I have been taking 300 mg in divided doses as part of an overall antiglycation regimen for maybe 7 years. My blood sugars were considered normal, but thanks to metformin, chromium, and green coffee bean extract, both fasting and post prandial levels are lower. ( 86, 100 approx ).
My HBA1C is now 5.2 ..I'm working to get it under 5
Ive read about benfotiamine extensively, and I've decided to keep taking it, but at a lower dose. If I contracted cancer I would discontinue it. I think the long term positive's are strong enough , given the current science to continue. I drew the analogy with testosterone because the " does
it cause cancer " arguments are similar. I also supplement testosterone..
This is a supplement that has been used for years in Europe as a prescription before being marketed as a supplement in the US..
As the science evolves, so does my regime!
dear mrclock 21 Aug 2012
are the synthetic thiamine mononitrate vs hydrochloride any different, either one better or one worse ?
i know niacin as niacinamide, but wtf is inositol hexaniacinate ?
whats different between pyridoxine hydrochloride vs pyridoxal 5' phosphate & pyridoxine alpha- ketoglutarate hydrochloride ?
any supplements containing folate natural form vs the usual folic acid synthetic ?
any help greatly appreciated tnx.
dear mrclock 29 Aug 2012
dear mrclock 29 Aug 2012
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22792314
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22446172
those are this year brand new studies and it seems benfotiamine has no positives but suspected negatives from threads on this forum. :/
Nootropic Cat 03 Sep 2012
Any opinions?
hamishm00 25 Sep 2012
ok those two urls fixed this problem ;
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22792314
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22446172
those are this year brand new studies and it seems benfotiamine has no positives but suspected negatives from threads on this forum. :/
Those studies are only relevant to diabetics. In any event that are also studies that had different results to the ones you have linked (such as this one: http://tbinet.org/ds...enfotiamine.pdf although I admit there were a small number of participants in that trial).
There are other studies that have been done on non-diabetic patients which have been encouraging. It seems possible that Benfotiamine administration increases the levels of intracellular thiamine diphosphate, a cofactor necessary for the activation transketolase, resulting in the reduction of tissue level of AGEs.
More studies are needed.
hmm was wondering about benfotiamine... does it help with kidney problems at all ? i read it helps with diebetic kidney related problems but what about general, maybe it benefits kidney disease ?
Thiamine definitely seems to help in relation to diabetic related kidney disease - Have a look here:
http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/7796073.stm
"The journal Diabetologia....study...reported that...300 mg of vitamin B1 taken orally each day consecutively for three months reduced the rate of albumin excretion in type 2 diabetes patients. Albumin excretion rate was dropped by almost 41% from the value noted in the beginning of the study. 35% patients with microalbuminuria restored to normal urinary albumin excretion when treated with thiamine."
dear mrclock 05 Oct 2012
mikeinnaples 10 Oct 2012
If I eat a food high in folate, I have no problems at any dose. If I take a folate supplement, I have really horrible depressive mood swings where I become almost suicidal, which is strange because everyone says it's supposed to make you feel better. I notice that with a few B vitamins actually and I dont get the effect otherwise.
B Vitamins and depression....
A person with a MTHFR mutation (or double mutatation) in which case a folic acid supplement will do nothing for you (a 5-MTHF supplement will however) and the resulting SAMe deficiency could be causing depression.
Also, there is some research out there showing issues with bi-polar disorder and folic acid.....
dear mrclock 01 Dec 2012
MrHappy 03 Dec 2012
is there a way to releive problems arising from high doses of b6 ? i think it needs labels on any supplement containing b6 higher than 50mg amounts so people know what they are doing. cant believe all those years b6 has not been mentioned once on any supplement that too much of it is detrimental. nobody thinks thats extremely unprofesional and there should be lawsuit against any companies that sell megadoses of it and not warn you ??
B vitamins are a balancing act and some are antagonistic to others. B6 should be balanced with sufficient B1-3,B5. B vitamins are critical to DNA repair and methylation and there are a number of papers citing antineoplastic activity in various forms of cancer.
However, badly screw up the balance to the point of depletion and you can end up with DNA transcription errors and genotoxicity.
dear mrclock 04 Dec 2012
MrHappy 04 Dec 2012
The common issues that come into play with B vitamin supplements generally revolve around methylation. Some people are over-methylators, so respond badly to B vitamins, SAM-e, uridine, RNA and other substances that improve methylation. You can check your histamine levels for an indication of whether you are an over-methylator.
There can also be bad reactions for some people who suffer from certain mental illnesses. Some people also have niacin 'flushes' when supplementing.
B12 can cause some people to break out in pimples for a couple of weeks. I suspect it's due to some 'repairs' being carried out, but that's one man's opinion.
Balance is the key and it's a somewhat personal thing.