LONGECITY

Is Sunifiram nevertheless a small molecule like Noopept?

I am wondering how it can be so potent in such a small dosage.

Yes, going by the definition linked by Isochroma, sunifiram and noopept are both small molecules, but not all small molecules are peptides. While noopept is a peptide, sunifiram is not because it is not a chain of amino acids. Peptides are often vulnerable to stomach acid and warm temperatures. A source of the confusion is that the term "peptide" has been incorrectly/unclearly used to mean "illegal secretagogue" and "peptide hormones" in sports doping - we should try to use the term correctly.

Being a small molecule itself doesn't grant a drug access into the brain. There are small molecule drugs that specifically don't work in the brain, e.g. atenolol. The section https://en.wikipedia...eting_the_brain may be of some interest. I forgot where I read this, but drugs like sunifiram induce a conformational change (structural change) in the NMDA and AMPA receptors making them more easily activated. (citation needed)

Thank you for bringing up these concerns.

Wow! Thanks!

Many factors involved, then.

What you say about stomach acid and warm temperatures suggests to me that sublingual administration of a peptide might be preferred over oral administration.

Seeing the reference on conformational change, I wonder if that correlates positively with the long (apparent) half-life of sunifiram. Another question about sunifiram is whether one sunifiram molecule can induce conformational change at multiple sites. I am guessing that is not the case, but if so could be an additional factor contributing to the unusual potency of sunifiram.

I am quite struck by the potency of sunifiram. 1-3 mg sublingually seems to be felt for well over a day. I have developed considerable respect for the potency of the substance!

I am not a chemist by any means, but this stuff is pretty interesting.

Thank you again for your informative reply.

FYI

Over the past few weeks, the user ssplash has been messaging several users from this thread. She complained of persistent headache side effects from a single low dose of sunifiram - not combined with any stimulants. By her description of the symptoms, I do believe she was telling the truth about her side effects. I requested her to post her experience here herself, but she lied to me that she already did this, and then blocked me when I called her out on her lie. I also urged her to do regular cardiovascular exercise which has been helping my side effect symptoms greatly, but she was lackadaisical about it, and preferred to use impure DXM instead which is not a great idea. Well, there is a saying - don't do the crime if you can't do the time. I am posting this advisory here requesting users to be cautious in communicating with her.
Edited by Climactic, 01 November 2013 - 11:45 PM.

FYI

Over the past few weeks, the user ssplash has been messaging several users from this thread. She complained of persistent headache side effects from a single low dose of sunifiram - not combined with any stimulants. By her description of the symptoms, I do believe she was telling the truth about her side effects. I requested her to post her experience here herself, but she lied to me that she already did this, and then blocked me when I called her out on her lie. I also urged her to do regular cardiovascular exercise which has been helping my side effect symptoms greatly, but she was lackadaisical about it, and preferred to use impure DXM instead which is not a great idea. Well, there is a saying - don't do the crime if you can't do the time. I am posting this advisory here requesting users to be cautious in communicating with her.

Although Longecity is a public site, nonetheless I believe it identifies as a user support group based on a common understanding that people empower other users, are supportive with each other and share valuable personal and general information. This only happens because users adhere to a certain degree of privacy, safety and freedom of speech. I fail to understand why the user Climactic has betrayed my trust after I exchanged messenger messages with him, and has decided to rudely air out a few of the things that I told him in a confidential way. He is actually mistaken in the way he has presented the facts. He has bullied me and laughed at me with no reason, and I am dismayed that his message will remain on the site as posts are easily googled.

He chooses to interpret the information I exchanged with him in a strange paranoid fashion. For instance, he advised me to do exercise to mitigate the effects of a constant migraine I was experiencing since taking sunifiram. I don't really have to explain this, but I broke my knee last year and I've suffered two bereavements in my family within the past year, the latest being in September (which I mentioned to him, despite him being a complete stranger, my mistake of course). I thanked him for his suggestions, and told him I don't really feel like exercising.

Also, he seems to have erupted in rage when he demanded I posted on the forum with my symptoms. I declined because obviously it's my prerrogative! Also, I told him I had already posted in various support forums on the internet, and I didn't want to flood Google with my name in all of them. He knows that I have contacted other users (again, I made the mistake of saying this), and he has also referred to this in a mocking way in his latest post, argueing that people should be "wary" of me, as I am some type of a liar. I have actually submitted a post to Longecity, which I failed to tell him about after his bullying. To be honest, I didn't remember and I couldn't find it, as I use Longecity with an old pda. It is here:

http://www.longecity...pt/#entry618342

Then again, his behaviour is entirely unacceptable. I have been polite, supportive and kind at all times with him. I don't know what his trolling is all about. I thought I could ignore his post entirely, but I actually feel that I don't have any reason to leave Longecity after years of having a great experience with everybody on the site. I have given advice as well as taken it, and it has been up until now one of my favourite support sites, it is not about people who seek some kind of personal pleasure trolling about and telling others what they should do in a nazi fashion or else they'll be damned ... I don't own Climatic any explanations, but I feel that, since he has vented out this ghastly post on the forum, I could add these details. Climactic has created an issue out of nowhere which doesn't really add to the discussion on sunifiram. I would really like him to not speak about me as a "topic", surely Longecity is no one's private playground or patronising toy. I have no interest in any kind of flame wars, and I'll just leave the site if I get any more communications from him or if he posts stuff about me without having the slightest inkling of my problems, what I'm like or what I'm about. I am extremely grateful to all those other users that have exchanged experiences and helpful tips with me. I wonder why Climactic feels the need to tell them how to behave. It doesn't make any sense to me. People on this site don't need any flagging nor recommendation to isolate me or quit talking to me, surely they don't need his patronising advice!! I would like to remind him that he is a total stranger to me in a site contributed to by thousands of other people who are keen on getting along and establishing a friendly, equal, supporting environment.
Edited by ssplash, 02 November 2013 - 09:01 PM.

He chooses to interpret the information I exchanged with him in a strange paranoid fashion. For instance, he advised me to do exercise to mitigate the effects of a constant migraine I was experiencing since taking sunifiram. I don't really have to explain this, but I broke my knee last year and I've suffered two bereavements in my family within the past year, the latest being in September (which I mentioned to him, despite him being a complete stranger, my mistake of course). I thanked him for his suggestions, and told him I don't really feel like exercising.

Also, he seems to have erupted in rage when he demanded I posted on the forum with my symptoms. I declined because obviously it's my prerrogative! Also, I told him I had already posted in various support forums on the internet, and I didn't want to flood Google with my name in all of them. He knows that I have contacted other users (again, I made the mistake of saying this), and he has also referred to this in a mocking way in his latest post, argueing that people should be "wary" of me, as I am some type of a liar. I have actually submitted a post to Longecity, which I failed to tell him about after his bullying. To be honest, I didn't remember and I couldn't find it, as I use Longecity with an old pda.

Face it - the primary reason why people shirk from exercise is laziness. I suggested it only as a step before starting a medication like memantine which you outright rejected even though there is a fair chance that it'll help. There are many things you can do which don't involve your knee. Moreover, it has been one year anyway since your injury - how much longer will it work as an excuse? I wouldn't stress it if it didn't help.

As it is, you have been contacting multiple users from this thread. These users have been communicating. If you don't post your experience here, i.e. in the main Longecity sunifiram thread, then people can't effectively help you or learn from you. People need to know about possible side effects. Finally, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for any information exchanged on this website unless a prior agreement was made.

And please get a real computer.
Edited by Climactic, 02 November 2013 - 08:40 PM.

Perhaps you both can agree to edit the posts there. This thread is now the 2nd result on google for "sunifiram" with potentially thousands of viewers. It should be clean and professional and not off-topic like that.
Edited by JoshW, 05 November 2013 - 02:09 PM.

Perhaps you both can agree to edit the posts there. This thread is now the 2nd result on google for "sunifiram" with potentially thousands of viewers. It should be clean and professional and not off-topic like that.

It is not possible to edit old posts. They contain some on-topic information and IMO shouldn't be deleted unless the info is safely reposted first.

Thousands? Are you serious? Not one person should be considering this potentially excitotoxic+neuropathic+carcinogenic drug, but given the naivete of many here, I wouldn't be surprised if they ignore all the safety alerts altogether.
Edited by Climactic, 05 November 2013 - 03:04 PM.

So seriously it's like you have ended the thread ? I can't understand the constant lack of rigour from people that are taking nootropics. I never had the chance to be blowed by a smart consensus of any substance it's like people here switch every week from one to the other drug without any consistant intellectual or therapeutic approach.

Mmm so one is currently taking Sunifiram ?
Edited by Babychris, 03 December 2013 - 07:35 AM.

I still take it, every other day, alternating with more "conventional" nootropics such as aniracetam and oxiracetam. I find it hard to take every day now, because it builds up too quickly in my system (or its effects do), and more is not better with this drug. For me it also loses its positive effects if I take it every day without a break. Hence the every-other-day strategy, to try to fool whatever homeostatic mechanism stops it from working well with continuous exposure. As an ampakine, or ampakine-like substance (as the research puts it), it does seem to have stimulant effects which the brain ends up adapting to, as it does with all other stimulants. This story more or less gets repeated with every nootropic I try. I think this explains why people on this forum hop around from one substance to the next. It would be good to hear from Isochroma as to whether he has had any "adaptation" issues with sunifiram (or any others with or without this issue, of course).

Geoffrey, what,s your current dose of sunifiram? Thanks

it does seem to have stimulant effects which the brain ends up adapting to, as it does with all other stimulants. This story more or less gets repeated with every nootropic I try. I think this explains why people on this forum hop around from one substance to the next.

The brain does not rapidly become tolerant to all stimulants. To give you two independent examples, nicotine and armodafinil are two drugs that the brain does not become tolerant to even after months of daily use. An unreliable stimulant like sunifiram would never be approved for use as a stimulant by the FDA because market drugs are expected to keep working everyday for years. People who hop from one stim to the next have just become used to getting a crappy deal.
Edited by Climactic, 03 December 2013 - 02:44 PM.

I'm still taking sunifiram. I just stopped posting in this thread since it became pretty negative. I did actually stop using it a number of months ago when I became worried about the potential harm it could be doing since a lot about it is unknown. Then some time passed I started to think about all the stuff I was able to do while I WAS taking it. I had finally moved out of my parents house and was actively looking for jobs (I had been having problems with all these things as I have social anxiety disorder and it's been pretty out of control since I graduated and realized I had to start looking for jobs and going to job interviews etc.). So when I went off sunifiram my motivation pretty much went back to normal...which was really low, and I was accomplishing much less.

So about two months ago I started taking sunifiram again and boom, I'm once again making progress in my life. I started applying to jobs way more, went to interviews, and just recently started working at a new job. So for me sunifiram is pretty much a dream drug. It doesn't make everything perfect but I can cope with much more anxiety and also just enjoy stuff more. And I don't get any tolerance with it or major withdrawal(only withdrawal I've noticed it that a day or two after I stop taking it I have a slightly lower mood than baseline but that goes away after a day) I haven't noticed any side effects that last after I stop taking the drug. The thermogenesis that I'd get when I first started has gone away or I just don't notice it anymore.

I generally take it 5days on 2 off or 4 on 3 off as otherwise I start getting exhausted from not getting proper sleep or I start getting irritated from its stimulation (like semi-loud noises start to irritate me). Also every 3-4 weeks I've noticed I need to take a break of about a week since I get this feeling of it building up too much in my system. My dose is 1 of those small red scoops (that you can get off amazon, I think its 10mg?) twice a day. Also taking curcumin twice a day with it and fish oil. I don't mess with mixing anything else with it, had a not-so-good reaction with sunifiram+noopept, and theres too many horror stories of mixing it with other random drugs.

<snip> So about two months ago I started taking sunifiram again and boom, I'm once again making progress in my life. <snip>

That's a great account -- thanks so much for sharing it! I think I need to wash out for a week, and then try again with a similar schedule and dosing. Looking back, I have been doing my alternation of sunifiram and aniracetam/oxiracetam or noopept (on alternate days) now for about three months with no break, and I'm losing my perception of the positive effects.
Edited by Geoffrey, 04 December 2013 - 09:00 PM.

What do you think of a little bit of 5-HTP with it ? I like the cognitive aspect and the kind of stimulation sunfiram can give. But I wish i could laugh like when I was a child or cry.. Maybe 5-htp could help with those aspect. But I'm a bit skeptical.

Bump.

Got it since 2+ weeks. I am also taking a number of supplements, but will skip this part for now.
My overall point is to regain power little faster.

I took it 4-5 times, 5-8 mg each(it's hard to measure) with following effects:

1) used at the evening before learning:
positive:
starts working quickly, more focus, some color/vision boost
probably increased brain performance
negative:
Didn't notice

3-4 times) used before sleep:
positive:
[no problems with falling asleep is usual for me]
I feel very refreshed after 7-8 hours of sleep, waking up naturally and it was really striking experience for me.
One time it shortened sleep to 6 hours - and I was also feeling refreshed. Noticed big improvement here.
negative:
- one time I woke up knowing what I was dreaming, which is unusual for me, and had bad mood at start.

Didn't notice problems while also taking following supplements:
piracetam
stinging nettle leaf
astragalus root
korean ginseng
CoQ10
Lecithin
Huperzine-a
Krill oil
Rhiodola
Gotu kola

but thats of course me.
So far so good.

~50mg Sunifiram in 0.5ml PG and 1ml VG, mixed 50/50 with C.R.E.A.M.
Overall density ~16mg/ml

18:05

Took 2 hits. Immediate erection (?)
Tastes slightly bitter, noticed immediate definite mental lifting.
Starting to notice refresh rate on LCD monitor (which is around 120 hz)
Erection soon faded, possibly related to excitement rather than chemistry.
Music sounds good, classically enhanced like most racetams.

18:10

Took another hit.
Feeling very into mood of music. Currently very chilled out.
Heart beating slightly stronger than baseline.

18:12

Definite arousal. Not just placebo.
Colors seem enhanced. Not visually, but as if processing better.

18:14

2 more hits. Exhaled through nose.
Definitely taste the racetam. Slight stinging in eyes/nasal passages.

18:17

2 more hits.
Throat burn is strong. Still feel elevated.

18:21

Felt a losening of nasal pasages. Can breathe very easily, now.
1 large hit, exhaling through nose.

18:26

2 more hits.

No longer notice refresh rate of monitor.
Colors still enhanced.
Slight pressure behind eyes.
Heart rate and pressure normal.

18:34

Another strong hit.
Still not even slightly through the dosing, possibly 1/10th has been used.
Removing remainder to add a drop of vanilla extract to help taste.

18:39

Added 0.2 ml Vanilla extract (partially PG, itself)
1 more hit.
Taste is much improved. Separation less prominent.

18:42

Added another ~50mg to mixture.
Slight amount of precipitate in syringe.
Likely maximum concentration before titration ~40mg/ml

18:46

Another 2 hits.
Taste now present on tongue. Slight buzzing in head.

18:48
Sound of music VERY much improved. Possibly just the chilled out song:
Younger Brother - Tetris
Another 2 hits.

18:51

Just felt a distinct rush, head slightly swimming.
I think this is the concentration I will go with.

~100mg Sunifiram, 0.2ml vanilla extract, 1ml VG, 0.5ml PG, 1.5ml C.R.E.A.M.

19:07

Talked with roommate for a few minutes. Definitely feel highly sociable.
Words and stories came fast and effectively.
And there was much rejoycing (yay...)

19:40

Took a small break, then vaped while watching Tek Syndicate.
Unknown how many hits, likely over 10 or 15.
Around 10 minutes later, onset occured.

At work.

Combined with NOExplode.
Easily irratible, got very frustrated.
Needs anxiolytic badly.

Following night

Completely done. Heartbeat extremely powerful.
Woke several times.

Next day

Trying again with 1/4 dose
~25mg Sunifiram, 3ml Shamrock Fairy (6mg/ml Nic)
~8.3 mg/ml Sunifiram

Taste is much improved, mint covers up the strange.

Thoughts

Far too high of a dose. Works in small doses tho, and as a vape A+
Overstimulated like hell.
Needs an anxiolytic. Possibly L-Theanine.

Have been vaping for several days now with a 1.2% Nicotine, 2% Sunifiram E-Cig (Lemon flavored). It works great, I feel extremely pro-social and everyone has commented on how upbeat and happy I am. The nicotine and sunifiram both work together and the act of standing around vaping, I think, adds to the sociability aspect. That is likely a trigger point, rather than a true effect.

Your Guinea Pig,
Jeoshua

Guinea pig update.
It seems that I had to take around 4 days off to come back to "normal".

Took twice during this week. It didn't seem to affect my sleep time(had to get up early and sleep less anyway), sleep quality was fine - i was quiet refreshed but not motivated to wake up(but I dont expect that). It affected mood in both good and bad ways - quiet heavily - somehow it increased "out-going" part of me but also sex drive... I noticed feeling thirsty and had some feeling that my liver is in heavy use - which was of course little scary. Increased hunger, as if it affected overall metabolism. I didn't feel tired for a whole day after using it which was really good. No head pain of any kind. So far so good..I also have unifiram, but I will try it maybe next month. Will hopefully keep you posted.
Edited by thedarkbobo, 21 December 2013 - 07:34 PM.

It seems that I had to take around 4 days off to come back to "normal".

During those four days, were you still feeling stimulated, or did you get rebound effect at all?

Well I can tell you how it was during recent days:
I took it on wednesday and friday - on saturday I was up from 7 am, getting to client for work 9->12[30minutes of sleep in bus] working from 12 till 17 super fast (I have a feeling that I was slightly overstimulated - but everything was fine), then back at home at 20, food, bath and read a little bit + was resting. I didn't do anything special on Sunday (kind of family time), and Monday was rather house cleaning day with a bit of reading. During those days, as well as today, I woke up around 7 am every day, when usually on such "free" days I wake up around 8-9am. Might be placebo, or additional effect of taking small doses of piracetam (400 mg daily, not every day). I know that I had a feeling of beeing stimulated for too long after 3 doses with only 1 day free between. Smaller doses, at least 1 day break and taking 3-4 days off every 3 doses and maybe taking choline(lecithin here) might be good enough for me. Not so sure yet.

If there is rebound it was really hard to notice, I think I was feeling very sleepy in the afternoon after dinner - but thats normal for me. My body seems to want to sleep more often after beeing stimulated for the whole day. Short nap is good.

Its like with "stress" chart, you dont want to burn out:

I took a break from sunifiram (6days since my last dose) and I'm STILL feeling effects from it. Previously I took it for 5 days, 1.5days off on the weekend, then another 5 days, 10mg TID for most of the time. Either sunifiram has a ridiculously long halflife or it does make some longterm change. It has felt somewhat like the remaining effects are slowly going away but I can't tell at this point.

The effects remaining:

Senses still feel more sensitive. Colors are still looking more vibrant to me. Sounds have more impact.

I feel slight thermogenesis every now and then even when I'm not in a hot environment.

Increased confidence. While the effect of having things not bother me as much, e.g. not caring about "social failures" or not caring what other people think has gone, it's like I still remember how it is to be totally confident from the sunifiram and that pretty much stays. It's odd though since it's like the increased confidence contradicts with how much I get bothered by social stuff( I have social anxiety disorder), so odd mix.

I kind've wonder how long this increased color/music/sound effect will last. It's a bit freaky thinking it could just stay like this, whenever I've had the vibrant colors from piracetam/aniracetam/other racetams it's always faded after a few hours.

Agree with this post ^
Took it again, after a 5 day break (last use on Friday evening, now on Wednesday evening). I didn’t feel mood effects after 4 days, but I’m quiet sure my vision was still improved. My hearing is very sensitive anyway, so hard to compare before/after. My smell nearly didn’t exist and I didn’t notice any change in this area.

Around 22 PM.
Dose as always – small – 1 6-8 mg microspoon. Probably will get a scale at some point.
Enhanced taste, sound, vision(its funny, I can see better, more detail, further) – especially at start.
After around 15 minutes – heavy mood unbalance(sad memory) for a very short time.
30 minutes – what the hell, I am going to eat something, so I did
Started feeling more refreshed.
After 1,5 hours started to feel little tired…(23+PM so no wonder).
Continued reading, epic focus with favorite music(this is very very important for focus).
It is funny, turned me into “I can do anything” mood again. I’m usually super positive and I feel it enhanced that for long period of time. Any sad feeling goes away very fast.
Around 1 AM – sleep time.
Woke up naturally at 6 am(that’s only 5hours of sleep!), decided to lay down for 2 more hours.
No dreams for me – as usually.
Had strong feeling of hypersensitive hearing during shaving with automatic razor. Not good, since there is so much noise around us nowadays.
I was tired in the afternoon but its rather wine+really loud surrounding+mental fatigue.
Overall I don't feel that sunifiram affected my memory in a bad way - rather in a good way - faster recall etc. but if thats from overstimulation then whatver.

I’ve taken similar dose of unifiram today around 20 pm. Yesterday's sunifiram is probably still working.
Effects were similar to posted by other people – more subtle, less anxiety, no color elevation, good focus. Not bad at all. Some itching..no headaches etc for now. Good to get simple things done.

Anyway – I’m fine so far. I will post if I experience any heavy downsides. No more doses till next week.

Ive been taking Sunifiram for some time now and im generally disappointed. It got me interested because i read about it having a slight stimulant edge compared to other nootropics (which would be interesting for me, as i always responded well to prescribed methylphenidate in terms of cognitive power and concentration) but there wasnt any stimulant effect of sorts, not even one comparable to caffeine. Independent of the dosage (ranging from 2mg to whatever-just-eat-a-bunch-doesnt-do-anything-anyways) i didnt have any effect that i can really distinquish from a placebo. The only thing i noticed was that it slightly prolonged the time i needed to find some sleep if taken too late (but that also could just be my imagination. anyways it doesnt produce any real insomnia like stimulants (eg. mph)). total sleep time or quality was unaffected however.

t-down on this
Edited by M3phisto, 01 January 2014 - 02:40 PM.

Independent of the dosage (ranging from 2mg to whatever-just-eat-a-bunch-doesnt-do-anything-anyways) i didnt have any effect that i can really distinquish from a placebo. The only thing i noticed was that it slightly prolonged the time i needed to find some sleep if taken too late (but that also could just be my imagination. anyways it doesnt produce any real insomnia like stimulants (eg. mph)). total sleep time or quality was unaffected however.

How strange. You've taken unmeasured but presumably large doses with no effect while others have blamed sunifiram for perceived neurotoxicity at levels above 20mg. Is your supplier reliable? Do you respond well to other racetams? I notice definite thermogenesis and hormone-like feelings of stimulation with 4mg-10mg daily doses. But I'm almost hyper-sensitive (often in a bad way) to virtually all racetams.

with what mix suni for get best results? or maybe its better to take it alone? hmm?

and im just curious is someone from eu ordered from stopacne.nl ? is it legit or i just need to stick with other legit sites mentioned in that topic?
Edited by trysomethingdiferent, 02 February 2014 - 11:02 PM.

This is something that I definitely do not and would not take every day. Oh, it's wonderful and everything, but it should be taken as a heat of the moment enhancer like Pramiracetam. I tried Sunifiram 3 days in a row and I had a slight headache that did not go away for a full 24 hours.

any long therm users can post their experiences with suni?

I gave Sunifram a chance, and it was OK some of the times I tried it.

Other times however, it seemed to give me an 'on edge' feeling. A feeling of uneasiness, and the feeling that if something bad happened I wouldn't react well. It was in this 'state' that I disposed of it in the toilet, fearing that a sober me would forget about this feeling and take it again at a later date.

hmm... quite interesting Steve... are you still on it? or gave up?

i heard that to raise the effects of suni you need some dopamine receptors? to activate the D1 receptors? it will be safe? and what it will it be?

3 months "on" it (once 5 days straight, now 1 week break - exam season)...it works great for tuning into "hyper" state, for operational things, executing, not so much for learning (I am usually distracted and want to do 100 things at the same time). I also wouldn't drive a car after this...but other than that feels ok. Low doses.

saaay whaaat? you just destroy my whole plan thedarkbobo!!! how you can say that you cant drive a car? im a professional driver, thats my job, i was thinking that will help me with that, that i will be like Sebastian Vettel in F1 after it :DDD damn...

anyway, can someone can answer my other question posted earlier on that topic? better go with suni alone or with some dopaminergics??

sunifarm + Sulbutiamine? anyone?


Edited by trysomethingdiferent, 04 February 2014 - 02:26 PM.

keep up good posts! i would like to hear some new reviews.

Any ideas of how much appart you have to keep each dose to prevent tolerance in its mood boosting properties?

Also I read a report that you really have to supplement choline with sufifiram in order to have its positive effects for the long term.

Does anyone know if the lack of availability of acetylcholine precursors might put a limiting effect in dopamine neurotransmission (question, not necessarily related to sunifiram).
Edited by Strangelove, 07 February 2014 - 12:05 PM.