26 replies to this topic

[rigs]

Has anyone tried combining Sunifiram and Phenylpiracetam?
I got a refund from LiftMode and I'm looking to spend the extra money on another racetam to add to the Suni I already have.
I was thinking 5-10mg Suni and 100mg Phenyl would be ideal. Anyone have any advice in regards to the dosage or the secondary drug itself (e.g. would Oxi or Prami be better)?
Also, I'm not taking any choline supps right now; would it be wise to add choline if I add another racetam?

[JohnnyP]

Have you tried the Suni by itself yet?

[rigs]

Yes, I have.

[JohnnyP]

Just my 2 cents on the thought of stacking something with Suni I would think that something like Oxi or Prami might be better for the long term.

[manic_racetam]

I'd be careful mixing the sunifiram with other substances. I had a bad reaction with tianeptine (anxiety issue). Another member seemed to have a more severe reaction with a larger dose and tianeptine.

If you plan on mixing phenylpiracetam and sunifiram you should probably start with something closer to 2mg of sunifiram rather than 5-10. I think erring on the side of caution is prudent with that one. Especially considering the phenyl-group on the phenylpiracetam gives it a drastically different mode of action in comparison to the other "racetams".

[Introspecta]

Sunifiram with Phenibut gave me a strange reaction. I was borderline tripping for about an hour. This was also combined with Screaming Banshee Stimulant Product by Barlowes Herbs. Suni and Banshee alone is fine but when combined with Phenibut it was very strange

[rigs]

Sunifiram with Phenibut gave me a strange reaction. I was borderline tripping for about an hour. This was also combined with Screaming Banshee Stimulant Product by Barlowes Herbs. Suni and Banshee alone is fine but when combined with Phenibut it was very strange

I've mixed 12mg Suni with around 1.5g Phenibut with no strange results (I got the benefit from both). As far as any other substances go in particular, I'm not very concerned. I'm only really concerned with anything specific to the combination of Suni and Phenylpiracetam. From my understanding, it is basically piracetam that can cross the BBB (blood brain barrier) because of the phenyl group.
So my real question is: Is there anything I should be concerned with in this particular combination or is there a better alternative?

[Introspecta]

Did you ever end up trying it.... I was thinking the day that I had strange results mixing Phenibut and Suni I may have taken Phenylpiracetam that morning. I can't say for sure though so take this with a grain of salt...I'm interested if you tried though because I may want to try this combo alone.

[adiosameobas]

Sunifiram with Phenibut gave me a strange reaction. I was borderline tripping for about an hour. This was also combined with Screaming Banshee Stimulant Product by Barlowes Herbs. Suni and Banshee alone is fine but when combined with Phenibut it was very strange

I've mixed 12mg Suni with around 1.5g Phenibut with no strange results (I got the benefit from both). As far as any other substances go in particular, I'm not very concerned. I'm only really concerned with anything specific to the combination of Suni and Phenylpiracetam. From my understanding, it is basically piracetam that can cross the BBB (blood brain barrier) because of the phenyl group.
So my real question is: Is there anything I should be concerned with in this particular combination or is there a better alternative?

phenibut is GABA with a phenyl group attached so that it can cross the blood brain barrier. piracetam effectively crosses the BBB without the need for a phenyl group. the modification was developed (in my understanding) to increase potency, and perhaps (in my speculation) add a more stimulating effect.

[manic_racetam]

http://www.longecity...post__p__532497

Post by Irish MD (user name) on possible metabolism of phenylpiracetam

[Stormy]

I took some Suni about an hour after taking Pram and Oxi the other day, and it was an extremely fun experience. The mood-lifing and music-enhancing effects of the Suni seemed to be amplified and longer lasting. Once the Suni started to wear off, I started getting the usual anxiety I get during a Suni come-down, but the anxiety, unlike the other Suni effects, wasn't remotely amplified. I've got some Phenyl in the apartment...I don't wanna go using myself as a lab rat on a work night, but Phenyl + Suni can be my experiment this weekend.

[Climactic]

This is a cross-post pertaining to a sunifiram and phenylpiracetam experience. The original post was made on the main sunifiram thread. Below is the copy.

SUNIFIRAM TOXICITY REPORT

This is a critical user report of alleged sunifiram induced toxicity.

Doses: On Wednesday, the 29th of May 2013, I took sunifiram with armodafinil, modafinil, and phenylpiracetam. Only the sunifiram was new. The rest were taken by me together and several times with no problem whatsoever. Here is a an approximate log:

• 2 pm: 75 mg armodafinil
• 6 pm: 5 mg sunifiram
• 6:30 pm: 50 mg phenylpiracetam
• 7 pm: 50 mg modafinil
• 7:30 pm: 10 mg sunifiram
• 8 pm: 50 mg phenylpiracetam

The effective totals were 15 mg sunifiram (purchased from Liftmode), 100 mg R-modafinil, and 100 mg phenylpiracetam. Once again, note that the [ar]modafinil and phenylpiracetam were taken by me several times before, with no issue whatsoever. Even the 15 mg sunifiram was taken by me several times before in isolation, with no issue. The problem, however, was clearly with the combination. As it has been mentioned in this thread previously, sunifiram has a potentiation and a permanence effect to it. Remember now that sunifiram is an ampakine and an LTP inducer. Also remember that phenylpiracetam is alleged to have an ampakine effect.

Symptoms: I have experienced pressure and pain in my temples starting approximately 8 pm that night. This pressure and pain occur together. The severity of the pain varies from 0 to 5 out of 10. It comes and goes. Sometimes the pressure gets more severe, and this is followed by tinnitus. As of today, i.e. 5 days later, there has been no reduction in the symptoms whatsoever. Hospital staff did not notice an elevated cranial pressure, but this evaluation was done when I was temporarily symptom free. I have no past history of tinnitus, and this pressure and pain is unlike anything I have ever had in the past.

Failed treatments: Magnesium threonate and L-theanine seem to help a little, but very temporarily at best. Analgesic painkillers do not help at all. A Toradol (ketarolac) injection, which is supposed to be a very powerful painkiller, was applied by medical staff, with no real effect. Potassium, ethanol, or caffeine worsen the symptoms immediately.

Personal hypothesis: (1) Glutaminergic excitotoxicity via AMPA and possibly NMDA receptors, with these receptors being oversensitized or increased by sunifiram. (2) An LTP effect induced by sunifiram leading to permanence of sunifiram's effects.

Comments: Just one day later, but too late for me, it was duly noted by user lenses that this excitotoxicity could very well happen. On the same day, user deeptrance noted recovery from sunifiram's undesired effects, although I haven't been this lucky.

Recommendations: Do not risk using more than about 5 mg sunifiram stacked with other stimulants. Safer yet, do not mix it with other powerful stimulants or any ampakines at all. Revisit other prior cautionary notes as well.

Requests: I cannot go on living my life like this, and I need to fix this situation. Continued excitotoxicity will kill me slowly. I immediately need effective treatments I can use. I will be seeking professional help, but if you feel you have something useful to share, please respond here or via PM. It is uncertain whether the problem can fix itself or not, or how long this might take. Should I try strong AMPA and/or NMDA antagonists or negative allosteric modulators? What approaches should I look at? Which medical tests should I ask for to confirm or reject my hypothesis? Is there an alternate hypothesis I must consider?

[mandaryn]

Ok, god that's awful. There are two theories I have about what is causing your headaches..to get the easy one out of the way, have you ever had a migraine? It could have been induced by your combination of drugs. The second one is that the combination produced hyper excitability which is know to deplete 5-Htp levels. If you have a serotonergic headache, you truly have a bad one. You could try supplementing with a double dose of 5-Htp to give your brain the components needed to make serotonin, and that may squash it. If it doesn't work, then, going with the migraine possibility, try a combination of Tylenol and caffeine. Migraines happen partially due to dilate toon of cerebral blood vessels, and caffeine (+/- 200mg dose) can get them to constrict. Otherwise, you may need something like a benzodiazepine, or even a barbiturate to shut things down and let your body reset itself. No matter how bad you feel, don't neglect nutrition, especially proteins, since, broken down, they contain what your brain needs to balance it's complex chemistry. Good luck...

[Climactic]

Ok, god that's awful. There are two theories I have about what is causing your headaches..to get the easy one out of the way, have you ever had a migraine? It could have been induced by your combination of drugs. The second one is that the combination produced hyper excitability which is know to deplete 5-Htp levels. If you have a serotonergic headache, you truly have a bad one. You could try supplementing with a double dose of 5-Htp to give your brain the components needed to make serotonin, and that may squash it. If it doesn't work, then, going with the migraine possibility, try a combination of Tylenol and caffeine. Migraines happen partially due to dilate toon of cerebral blood vessels, and caffeine (+/- 200mg dose) can get them to constrict. Otherwise, you may need something like a benzodiazepine, or even a barbiturate to shut things down and let your body reset itself. No matter how bad you feel, don't neglect nutrition, especially proteins, since, broken down, they contain what your brain needs to balance it's complex chemistry. Good luck...

Thank you for your thoughts. I believe phenylpiracetam is safe with sunifiram in moderate doses. I believe my problem was caused by a high dose of sunifiram combined with modafinil. I will have to look into the 5-htp angle - this is one I have not thought about. My current leading theory is that of NMDA receptor oversensitization or overexpression, and I'm trying low dose lithium (as orotate) (up to 50mg a day) to counter it. I have never had migraines before. This is not a classical migraine that I am having. Caffeine unfortunately only makes it immediately worse, and Tylenol (acetaminophen) does nothing. I may try a benzodiazepine soon enough.

[zeropoint]

Having tried sunifram in recommended doses of 5-10 mg. and phenylpiracetam in doses of 50-100mg. for me 100mg.phenylpiracetam wins......combined with 800 mg. piracetam.

[Climactic]

Having tried sunifram in recommended doses of 5-10 mg. and phenylpiracetam in doses of 50-100mg. for me 100mg.phenylpiracetam wins......combined with 800 mg. piracetam.

Guys, sunifiram is not great for use as a reliable stimulant, and should not be used for this purpose. It is best and safest if used as a potent glutamate based LTP agent, in low doses and without interactions with any stimulants. In contrast, phenylpiracetam is great for use as an occasional stimulant.

Edited by Climactic, 12 June 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[mandaryn]

Climactic? How's it going? Did you get past the headache? I'm curious if it was from your intervention, or if it just "went away" eventually.

[Climactic]

Climactic? How's it going? Did you get past the headache? I'm curious if it was from your intervention, or if it just "went away" eventually.

The frequency and severity has gone down, but not to zero. I am still trying numerous OTC pills to try to treat it based on my hypothesis of excitotoxicity. I don't think this is something that will disappear easily. Many people have reported that sunifiram and phenylpiracetam work just fine together, but realize that you're combining ampakines. Moreover, consider the Safety section for sunifiram. There have been at least three people on Longecity thus far who have reported serious adverse effects with sunifiram (myself, deeptrance, and R******), whether in isolation or in combination with something else.

My recommendation is to use sunifiram only once in a while in low doses (<=1mg) to correct deficits, not regularly, and not with anything that could be a glutamatergic or an NMDA agonist or such.

Edited by Climactic, 18 June 2013 - 06:57 PM.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

I used 10mg Sunifiram with 100mg Phenylpiracetam and 800mg Oxiracetam the other day. Seemed to have good stimulating effects, no negative effects.

[Isochroma]

Thanks for the report!

Reports like yours help to provide a balanced and accurate view of the interaction of Sunifiram with other nootropics.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Thanks for the report!

Reports like yours help to provide a balanced and accurate view of the interaction of Sunifiram with other nootropics.

Of course perhaps I'll drop dead of glioblastoma multiforme in a year from what everyone is saying, so caution should be exercised.

[Galantamine]

The frequency and severity has gone down, but not to zero. I am still trying numerous OTC pills to try to treat it based on my hypothesis of excitotoxicity. .

Doesn't sound anything like excitotoxicity. With all of those stimulants/polypharmacy, it could be due to high blood pressure, serotonin syndrome, atypical migraine/status migrainosus, et cetra.

If I had an unpleasant headache of that duration, I would probably blast some diphenhydramine and consult a physician.

[Climactic]

The frequency and severity has gone down, but not to zero. I am still trying numerous OTC pills to try to treat it based on my hypothesis of excitotoxicity. .

Doesn't sound anything like excitotoxicity. With all of those stimulants/polypharmacy, it could be due to high blood pressure, serotonin syndrome, atypical migraine/status migrainosus, et cetra.

If I had an unpleasant headache of that duration, I would probably blast some diphenhydramine and consult a physician.

The stimulants I was taking were those that don't affect blood pressure much. My blood pressure and heart rate are normal and unchanged. I can try some diphenhydramine. Before this, I never had a migraine in my life. The explanation for the symptoms must make sense in light of the mechanisms of action of sunifiram and modafinil. The neurologist asked if I could wait it out and let it fix itself, at least for some time, which I am struggling to do.

Sunifiram is effectively an NMDA agonist, and modafinil increases glutamate in the hippocampus. Taking either one of the two makes the symptoms substantially worse. To me, trying long-acting NMDA antagonists seems like the logical course of action.

Edited by Climactic, 20 June 2013 - 12:48 AM.

[Galantamine]

Sunifiram is effectively an NMDA agonist, and modafinil increases glutamate in the hippocampus. Taking either one of the two makes the symptoms substantially worse. To me, trying long-acting NMDA antagonists seems like the logical course of action.

That is not at all how excitotoxicity presents, nor is NMDA agonism alone in non-pathological humans sufficient to cause excitotoxicity - especially subjected to the kinetics of any orally administered drug. Furthermore, I have seen no evidence that sunifiriam can agonize the NMDA receptor, especially in the absence of co-agonism (D-serine, glycine) and AMPA potentiation (i.e. intracellular polarity reversal/magnesium displacement). Allosteric modulators, a class which sunifiram likely belongs, although they potentiate gluatamineric signaling, they also intrinsically/mechanically prevent excessive signaling.

If you dumped all of the necessary co-factors for NMDA signaling into the intrathecal space in a normal human, you may experience excitotoxicity, but it would present with AMS, LOC, parasthesia, and/or seizures.

[Climactic]

Sunifiram is effectively an NMDA agonist, and modafinil increases glutamate in the hippocampus. Taking either one of the two makes the symptoms substantially worse. To me, trying long-acting NMDA antagonists seems like the logical course of action.

That is not at all how excitotoxicity presents, nor is NMDA agonism alone in non-pathological humans sufficient to cause excitotoxicity - especially subjected to the kinetics of any orally administered drug. Furthermore, I have seen no evidence that sunifiriam can agonize the NMDA receptor, especially in the absence of co-agonism (D-serine, glycine) and AMPA potentiation (i.e. intracellular polarity reversal/magnesium displacement). Allosteric modulators, a class which sunifiram likely belongs, although they potentiate gluatamineric signaling, they also intrinsically/mechanically prevent excessive signaling.

If you dumped all of the necessary co-factors for NMDA signaling into the intrathecal space in a normal human, you may experience excitotoxicity, but it would present with AMS, LOC, parasthesia, and/or seizures.

The side effects started only as a result of the sunifiram+modafinil interaction. Before the event, taking only one of the two didn't cause this problem. I am not convinced sunifiram is particularly allosteric. Sunifiram's most recent 2013 article discusses its agonism of NMDAR at the glycine binding site. I have yet to read the full PDF.

[Galantamine]

The side effects started only as a result of the sunifiram+modafinil interaction. Before the event, taking only one of the two didn't cause this problem. I am not convinced sunifiram is particularly allosteric. Sunifiram's most recent 2013 article discusses its agonism of NMDAR at the glycine binding site. I have yet to read the full PDF.

You are perseverating about excitotoxicity, whereas your symptoms are not related to excitotoxicity. Either you are mentally ill and not capable of normal reasoning (which your poly-pharmacy may suggest), or you are a competitor trying to discredit this compound.

I digress, the article you mentioned acknowledges its AMPA-tropism, which is in-line with AMPA modulation. Its co-receptor glycine agonism is an interesting diversion, which is probably shared by many other compounds, but rarely tested. Its protein binding domain is very encompassing, which is why it shares co-agonism with compounds with similar EN domains (D-serine).

[Climactic]

The side effects started only as a result of the sunifiram+modafinil interaction. Before the event, taking only one of the two didn't cause this problem. I am not convinced sunifiram is particularly allosteric. Sunifiram's most recent 2013 article discusses its agonism of NMDAR at the glycine binding site. I have yet to read the full PDF.

You are perseverating about excitotoxicity, whereas your symptoms are not related to excitotoxicity. Either you are mentally ill and not capable of normal reasoning (which your poly-pharmacy may suggest), or you are a competitor trying to discredit this compound.

I digress, the article you mentioned acknowledges its AMPA-tropism, which is in-line with AMPA modulation. Its co-receptor glycine agonism is an interesting diversion, which is probably shared by many other compounds, but rarely tested. Its protein binding domain is very encompassing, which is why it shares co-agonism with compounds with similar EN domains (D-serine).

You are an idiot for calling someone mentally ill just because they have a hypothesis of NMDA overactivation. The symptoms that I and others have had are completely consistent with it. You don't even know the full set of symptoms that I and others have had. Consider cycloserine, an NMDA agonist, which leads to the same set of neurotoxic side effects in some.

It's convenient for you to ignore the NMDA agonism of sunifiram at the glycine site, but not so much for me. Sunifiram is a terrible AMPA modulator, as it is a wholly non-selective one.

If you think you're so smart, how about you present a superior hypothesis? You can't because you don't have any. Since you are of no help in terms of a treatment, I suggest you cease your replies.

Speaking of polypharmacy, make sure never to mix phenylpiracetam with caffeine. It might kill you. (sarcasm

You must really be running out of arguments to label someone a competitor without any evidence of the same. What a dbag.

Edited by Climactic, 20 June 2013 - 04:15 PM.