67 replies to this topic

[chipdouglas]

Personally, I never ever drink milk with tea, let alone any non-dairy creamer. 

[Darryl]

Afternoon, a 700 ml pot of loose green jasmine tea, sometimes with a squeeze of lemon. Green tea often unsettles my stomach while jasmine tea doesn't - I've no idea why.

 

Evening, a 700 ml pot of loose hibiscus flower tea (also known as flor de Jamaica, in Latin grocers), sweetened with a teaspoon of glycine.

 

I consider this ~$24 Japanese Hario tea pot one of my better investments over the past three years. 

 

[chipdouglas]

Darryl : Couldn't it be tannin upsetting your stomach ? 

[Darryl]

chipdouglas: Tannins certainly can cause nausea and gastrointestinal distress, but the base of Jasmine tea is also green tea (often a somewhat lower grade), tarted up by mixing with dried jasmine petals for a few days. But there's definitely something going on that prevents the usual green tea belly ache.

 

I should note that jasmine tea is also the main way green tea is drunk in the traditional Okinawan diet, though they also drink a herbal tea from fermented turmeric (a candidate for the healthiest daily infusion on the planet).

[Kalliste]

Nobody in this thread mentioned that green tea should be left for 10 minutes? That is a figure I've heard many times in anti-cancer literature and so on. Is there any scientific concern about Aluminium and Fluoride in tea at all? I get the impression that that particular worry is based on Mercola-like newssources.

[chipdouglas]

Darryl : I didn't know about jasmine tea being the main way it is drunk in the Okinawan diet. I've been drinking loose leaf senchas and gyokuro for about 4 years now, but never tasted jasmine tea - I'll most definitely give it a try. 

 

Regarding your question I responded to above, I now realize I'd misunderstood it.  

[chipdouglas]

Cosmicalstorm : back when I first started drinking tea, I would brew it for about 8-10 minutes. This obviously resulted in a pungent tasting tea. I've also wondered about aluminum and fluoride content in tea. I've gone back to brewing green tea for 4 minutes. You're right about the 10-minute brew time - could it be you've also read Dr. Richard Beliveau's book on foods that fight cancer ? http://www.richardbe.../biography.html

[Kalliste]

Anticancer by David Servan Schrieber. My recollection is that the Al and Fluoride is not absorbed very much from tea. Even if it was, the trials for tea drinkers look pretty good.

[Luminosity]

Tea should be brewed for about 3 to 5 minutes for most black tea.  A lot of people would brew green tea for that or less, but not more.  Some sources say water for boiling green tea should just before boiling.  If water to brew tea is left to boil for a while, it becomes acidic and devoid of oxygen, which doesn't make the best tea.  I would not brew most tea for ten minutes.  The longer or the more times you use a tea bag, the more fluoride comes out of it.  Never use a tea bag more than twice because bad stuff like fluoride starts coming out of it, and the good stuff is exhausted.  If you feel that you cannot get the good stuff out of the tea in these time lines (and that is at odds with people that know tea) then try something else.  You can put matcha tea in room temperature water and drink that, consuming the ground up raw tea leaves.  You can try the same thing with hot water, consuming the cooked tea leaves.  The Burmese have a tea leaf salad.  They consume tea leaves in the Nepal (I think).  Or you could look into extracts but those don't always agree with everyone.  The whole is more than its parts.  

[Kalliste]

Lucky us, this has been looked at seriously. Looks like there are different ways of going about it. Maybe we should be drinking half of our tea after leaving it for a very long time in the pot and the other half after leaving it for 20-40 minutes. What is this nonsense about Fluoride by the way? Sounds like Mercola like advice. If tea was killing people why is that not what we see in any trials? I want more than half baked speculations about that before I stop drinking tea.

 

Effect of brewing temperature and duration on green tea catechin solubilization: Basis for production of EGC and EGCG-enriched fractions

 

In an industrial context of producing catechin-enriched fractions by electromigration, a new technology demonstrated to be effective for

 

concentration of the two main catechins (EGC and EGCG) of green tea, the recovery yield from tea leaves during brewing would be the most

 

important parameter of the whole process rentability. However, the majority of the kinetic studies were carried-out on black tea, a fermented

tea. Consequently, the objective of this study was to investigate the effects of temperature (50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 ◦C) and brewing duration (0, 5,

10, 20, 40 and 80 min) on the catechin solubilization from green tea, a non-fermented tea. The use of mathematical models revealed that there

was a variable interdependence between the brewing duration and the brewing temperature on catechin and caffeine concentrations. It was

possible to divide catechins in two groups, the time dependent compounds (EGC and EC) and the time/temperature dependent compounds (C,

EGCG, GCG and ECG). Furthermore, the 3D models calculated to represent the evolution of the catechins and caffeine concentrations allowed

to determine the best combination of time and temperature for their extraction: 50 ◦C during 20–40 min for time-dependent compounds, 90 ◦C

during 80 min for the time/temperature-dependent compounds, and 70–80 ◦C during 20–40 min for caffeine. Furthermore, this research pointed

out a very simple two-step procedure to fractionate the EGC and EGCG by modifying brewing temperature and time parameters.

© 2005 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.

 

 

 

 

 

[gamesguru]

Use a generous half tablespoon of premium sencha to trump everyone doing teaspoons of bancha. 

Brew one cup at a time, and only brew one or two cups per session; only use a tea kettle, never a teapot. 

Brew it for at least five minutes, starting with 8-10 oz. spring water at 185±10°F; don't bother preheating the cup, the water cools to about 140° by the end.

It helps to constantly agitate the infuser (yaw, pitch, altitude), and to stir the contents of the infuser with a toothpick at least twice during this time and once at the end (like squeezing a teabag). Swamp creature is born.

 

 

Edited by gamesguru, 15 January 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[chipdouglas]

This is an interesting thread for sure. FWIW, here's where I get all of my green teas from : http://camellia-sinensis.com/en/ 

Personally, I never use tea bags to make tea ; I've only been using loose leaf sencha. The reason I use sencha should be clear for all ; it's got higher EGCG than other Japanese green teas. Most or all people participating in this thread have known this for a while, I'm sure. I don't drink any Chinese green teas (or others), because the heavy metals contents of those seems too high : http://suppversity.b...-tea-is-no.html

 

As to water temperature, I heat it up to 75 Celsius which is the recommended temp. for most sencha teas. OTOH, the above store suggested water temp. for senchas is concerned with taste and no health. Also, I've been brewing my senchas in a Kyushu teapot, using a teaspoonful of leaves. I make two teas out of said teaspoon ; 3 minutes for the first one and 4 for the second one (using the same water temp. as stated above). 

 

It looks like I should probably increase brewing time. I'm certainly open to science based suggestions. 

 

 

[gamesguru]

 make two teas out of said teaspoon ; 3 minutes for the first one and 4 for the second one (using the same water temp. as stated above). 

It looks like I should probably increase brewing time. I'm certainly open to science based suggestions. 

How thin is this tea? If you're brewing 16 oz. of water, definitely try closer to 2 tsp.

 

And yes, to extract the most nutrition it's common sense to steep long and hot. Although everyone must compromise health for some degree of taste; I don't know many people who boil tea for 80 minutes. Concentrations above 1 mg/mL are most impressive and astringent.

 

 

195°F for 5 minutes extracts about one half or one third of the goodies, that's good enough for this impatient man who pays less than $20/100g for his sencha:

At 90°C, the EGCG concentration increased constantly from 489.6g/mL at 5 min, to 763.8 μg/mL at 10 min, and reached a maximum of 1071.4 μg/mL after 40 min. [sic, what about the 1200+ point at 80 mins]

Edited by gamesguru, 15 January 2015 - 05:01 PM.

[chipdouglas]

 

Lucky us, this has been looked at seriously. Looks like there are different ways of going about it. Maybe we should be drinking half of our tea after leaving it for a very long time in the pot and the other half after leaving it for 20-40 minutes. What is this nonsense about Fluoride by the way? Sounds like Mercola like advice. If tea was killing people why is that not what we see in any trials? I want more than half baked speculations about that before I stop drinking tea.

 

Effect of brewing temperature and duration on green tea catechin solubilization: Basis for production of EGC and EGCG-enriched fractions

 

In an industrial context of producing catechin-enriched fractions by electromigration, a new technology demonstrated to be effective for

 

concentration of the two main catechins (EGC and EGCG) of green tea, the recovery yield from tea leaves during brewing would be the most

 

important parameter of the whole process rentability. However, the majority of the kinetic studies were carried-out on black tea, a fermented

tea. Consequently, the objective of this study was to investigate the effects of temperature (50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 ◦C) and brewing duration (0, 5,

10, 20, 40 and 80 min) on the catechin solubilization from green tea, a non-fermented tea. The use of mathematical models revealed that there

was a variable interdependence between the brewing duration and the brewing temperature on catechin and caffeine concentrations. It was

possible to divide catechins in two groups, the time dependent compounds (EGC and EC) and the time/temperature dependent compounds (C,

EGCG, GCG and ECG). Furthermore, the 3D models calculated to represent the evolution of the catechins and caffeine concentrations allowed

to determine the best combination of time and temperature for their extraction: 50 ◦C during 20–40 min for time-dependent compounds, 90 ◦C

during 80 min for the time/temperature-dependent compounds, and 70–80 ◦C during 20–40 min for caffeine. Furthermore, this research pointed

out a very simple two-step procedure to fractionate the EGC and EGCG by modifying brewing temperature and time parameters.

© 2005 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.

 

 

 

When I started drinking sencha nearly 4 years ago, I'd brew 1 tsp for 8-10 minutes in ~ 250 ml of water brought just short of boiling, since I didn't have this tea kettle then : http://camellia-sine...rature-variable

 

That produced a tea that was nearly unpalatable. No doubt the above method is both accurate and effective, but I'm not sure about the taste of such protracted brewing. OTOH, I'd think that increasing the amount of water may make the taste more palatable. 

[chipdouglas]

gamesguru : 

 

Not so thin - Most of the time, I brew tea in 10 oz. of water. In 16 oz.,I agree closer to 2 tsp are needed. 

[gamesguru]

Two cups, each 5 oz? That's understandable. Must have a low tolerance if that's all you do in a session. I'll do 1 tablespoon of sencha upon rising, if not more.

[chipdouglas]

Two cups, each 5 oz? That's understandable. Must have a low tolerance if that's all you do in a session. I'll do 1 tablespoon of sencha upon rising, if not more.

 

Nope, 10 oz. is only 1 cup, one large cup that is. I then brew the second infusion later that day. Then, in the evening I'll repeat the same process, totalling 4 cups of sencha/day. 

 

FYI, I just measured the amount of water my Kyushu teaspot contains. I thought it contained less than the above. 

 

I do fine on all sencha teas, since it contains much catechins and less caffeine than gyokuro, which contains more caffeine and less catechins. I can't take gyokuro, the higher amount of caffeine causes me to experience ectopic beats (extrasystoles). 

 

What water temp. do you brew your senchas at and for how long ?

[gamesguru]

So the 1 teaspoon of leaves IS split over 20 oz. or even 40?? That's thin in my books.

I keep some Hōjicha around for the evening, that's even lower in caffeine, although for me, the theanine in gyokuro makes its overall effect very calming.

195°F for 10 minutes ☮

Edited by gamesguru, 15 January 2015 - 05:26 PM.

[chipdouglas]

So the 1 teaspoon of leaves IS split over 20 oz. or even 40?? That's thin in my books.

I keep some Hōjicha around for the evening, that's even lower in caffeine, although for me, the theanine in gyokuro makes its overall effect very calming.

195°F for 10 minutes ☮

 

Split over 20 oz. Overall, I use two slightly rounded tsps sencha/day, producing 4 cups of tea. I'll go to two tsps leaves and see how I do. 

 

One other tea I do well on is Kebuse-cha, which I'm sure you know is halway between sencha and gyokuro. 

As to gyokuro, I do better on it if I brew it for 3 minutes instead of 1. I have also tried brewing it at various water temps using an electronic meat thermometer (i.e. 50,55,60 Celsius). I'm prone to anxiety so I have to be careful with gyokuro, so this is why I drink mostly senchas. 

 

I too like Hojicha, kukicha and bancha since they're all low in caffeine. Though of all three, I prefer Hojicha since it's taste is quite different from the other two. 

[chipdouglas]

Come to think of it, I used to order from this guy in Japan : http://www.o-cha.com/ 

I'm merely sharing in case some of you didn't know of this place. 

 

gamesguru : how many of those brews do you have daily ? I'd guess 3 or so. 

[gamesguru]

Yes. Two cups with breakfast, and a third with lunch, totaling 4.5 teaspoons daily. A fourth cup causes jitteri- and restlessness.

It's good to order direct from Japan. I do, and I've barely been serious for 6 months.

 

Top 5 Japanese vendors: 

O-Cha 
Zencha 
Den 
Yuuki-Cha
Maiko

 

Edited by gamesguru, 15 January 2015 - 06:37 PM.

[Kalliste]

I don't mind the taste of Sencha even after leaving it for 15 minutes. Tastes well. Especially if I'm thirsty. Anyway taste is not my reason for drinking GT.

 

Any good sites to order from Japan?

[gamesguru]

I don't mind the taste of Sencha even after leaving it for 15 minutes. Tastes well. Especially if I'm thirsty. Anyway taste is not my reason for drinking GT.

 

Any good sites to order from Japan?

 

If you're not agitating the infuser (something everyone should practice) or reheating the cup in the microwave or the teapot on the stove (things I don't recommend because of their difficulty and inconvenience), the water temperature is only hot for 1-2 minutes and the tea is sitting undisturbed...then "15 minutes" isn't so long, and I'm not surprised it still tastes pleasant.

 

I guess I should have linked them...

O-Cha

Zencha

Den

Yuuki-Cha

Maiko

Edited by gamesguru, 16 January 2015 - 06:22 PM.

[Luminosity]

 

Lucky us, this has been looked at seriously. Looks like there are different ways of going about it. Maybe we should be drinking half of our tea after leaving it for a very long time in the pot and the other half after leaving it for 20-40 minutes. What is this nonsense about Fluoride by the way? Sounds like Mercola like advice. If tea was killing people why is that not what we see in any trials? I want more than half baked speculations about that before I stop drinking tea.

 

 

 

 

Why so insulting?  There's something wrong when I can't contribute my knowledge from twenty years of drinking and studying tea without being insulted.  

 

Not a lot of facts here.   I barely know who Mercola is.  Fluoride doesn't just kill you like that.  There are no large populations of people who drink such oversteeped tea, therefore, no one can state that wouldn't harm health or longevity.  No one told you to stop drinking tea.  Food and drink are a complicated series of interlocking substances; not science experiments.    They cannot be understood without looking at the knowledge of people who know them best.  You are constantly talking about science, but you aren't a scientist.  Good scientists don't go around trashing other forms of wisdom like you do.  

Edited by Luminosity, 17 January 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[Kalliste]

If you advice me not to drink tea made under certain conditions then please back that up with something other than speculation.

[gamesguru]

The longer or the more times you use a tea bag

...the more you wish you'd been using loose leaf all along. Don't be a teabagger.

[chipdouglas]

https://stage4living...chard-beliveau/

 

I have the referenced books by Dr. Richard Beliveau. He indeed recommends brewing green tea for 8-10 minutes, though he doesn't state whether water should be brought to a boil or not. Clearly, the hotter the water X time = more EGCG.  In my opinion, Dr. Beliveau is well aware of the issue of aluminum and fluoride in tea. However, nowhere in his books have I seen him mention these. I understand that his books aren't meant to be science textbooks, but of all people who have studied the benefits of tea, if there were any real issues, he'd have brought it up at some point.  

[HaloTeK]

If you are already careful about what you eat and maintain minor caloric restriction with ON (low sugar, low polys, high in micronutrients) do you really think drinking tea is going to do much of anything?   Also, I do not trust fluoride and aluminum in tea when I drink water with fluoride in it.

Edited by HaloTeK, 17 January 2015 - 07:33 PM.

[Luminosity]

GamesGuru--Many people have found that high quality tea in bags is fine, and easier to use.  

 

CosmicalStorm:

 

Page 131

The Tea Cyclopedia

by Keith Souter, M.D.

Doctor & Tea Expert 

 

States that tea contains organic fluoride naturally.  This is also a well-known fact.  There is no reference to aluminum in that book, nor have I stated that.  I don't recall seeing that in other literature.  Anyone have a source for that?

 

Zhena Muzyka who wrote Life by the Cup, and is a tea expert and CEO of Zhena's Gypsy Tea Company.  She says that non-organic tea can be processed with formaldehyde and can contain other chemicals.  She says that the non-organic added flavorings in flavored tea can contain bad stuff like propylene glycol.  She stated this on "A Healthier You" with Carol Alt on Fox News.  The show isn't political.  

 

I drink both organic or non-organic tea.  I can taste and feel when something is wrong with it.  I avoid certain brands/varieties.   

 

CosmicalStorm, it's ignorant to disregard twenty years of personal experience for me and hundreds of years of collective experience/tradition around tea, as well as the taste, which is a clue.  My previous post was not out of line; it was on target.    You lack life experience, among other things.  I will have you on ignore from now.

 

There's something really wrong there.  It should be possible to have a civil discussion of, of all things, tea.  CosmicalStorm was generously handing out personal insults on another thread, about another topic.  That's not cool. 

 

 

Edited by Luminosity, 22 January 2015 - 05:40 AM.

[Kalliste]

I will take any advice posted by Luminosity with a big grain of salt from now on. Pseudoscience and outright magic.