76 replies to this topic

[Reformed-Redan]

Wondering about thoughts on amphetamine and alterations in brain structure. I'm reading that amphetamine prunes DA neurons and leads to genetic and mitochondrial abnormalities that decrease future DA concentrations in the PFC. I've also read about the psychological dependence and the problems with tolerance reduction which is actually impossible since you are altering your reward pathways to the effects of an external compound. There's also the possibility of aortic tears from the cardiovascular stress induced by higher blood pressure from amp. Oh, yes there is also the decrease in synaptic plasticity from amp in PFC. To put it in short, it's like your burning your "candle" very hard and fast to get that extra sense of confidence and concentration.

Given my awareness of the above I really don't think it's worth taking or rationalizing taking Adderall for ADD. There are other methods, right? Modafinil is a good option I've heard. And if you really need that extra boost from amp, you can use it only on an as needed basis, like before/during a test? What do you think?

[Reformed-Redan]

Yeah, I'm switching to Modafinil, that is Adrafinil.

[golden1]

Adrafinil didn't do anything but make me feel weirdly awake, not nearly as useful as amphetamine. It actually seemed to make things harder to do since it added a background noise/slight discomfort

[xks201]

I read a while back some article showing how people prescribed amphetamine had something like twice the incidence of alzheimers later in life. I think the effects on various people are probably different to some degree. If you have dysfunctional dopamine transporters as verified by genetic testing then I don't see how it would be more harmful to take the medication than not. Otherwise it is probably harmful. Though not everyone wants to live to 100 years of age and be lucid and the added productivity are worth the risk for some.

[Sholrak]

It also increases heart muscle and valve future problems and diseases, and A-fib. Yes, it's probably the stimulants king but not worthy at all. It's one of the most prescribed medication to ADD children and it has to work. I have not touched it and like that I will be. There are so many much less drastic options that will work better.

[jakord]

Taking Amphetamine on a daily basis isn't worth it. Tolerance to most of the positive effects just skyrockets too fast, even with the help of memantine. Everything Amphetamine helps with (wakefulness, concentration, mood, self esteem) will just get worse by taking it regularly.

[Reformed-Redan]

If Adrafinil doesn't cut it then at least I'll stick with Focalin and use Adderall on an as needed basis.

[Sholrak]

Haven't tried Modafinil and derivatives. I'm impressed how much is it used having into account it's designed for narcolepsy. It must be really good, but again, it wasn't made for study aid or brain fog. Well, what were the majority of 'nootropics' made for? Perhaps the sleepy/focus/fog problems doesn't need something as extreme as amph. or an off label use of something like Modafinil.

[Reformed-Redan]

Haven't tried Modafinil and derivatives. I'm impressed how much is it used having into account it's designed for narcolepsy. It must be really good, but again, it wasn't made for study aid or brain fog. Well, what were the majority of 'nootropics' made for? Perhaps the sleepy/focus/fog problems doesn't need something as extreme as amph. or an off label use of something like Modafinil.

I think we can do better than that. Look at 3ArmLampScooter's thread. We can design a study aid that has little to no resemblance to existing study aids, that should fit legal bounds and be effective. Just a matter of time and capital IMHO.

[Sholrak]

Haven't tried Modafinil and derivatives. I'm impressed how much is it used having into account it's designed for narcolepsy. It must be really good, but again, it wasn't made for study aid or brain fog. Well, what were the majority of 'nootropics' made for? Perhaps the sleepy/focus/fog problems doesn't need something as extreme as amph. or an off label use of something like Modafinil.

I think we can do better than that. Look at 3ArmLampScooter's thread. We can design a study aid that has little to no resemblance to existing study aids, that should fit legal bounds and be effective. Just a matter of time and capital IMHO.

Yes, I agree with you. And still, I doubt Amphetamines or Modafinil would take part of that stack.

[mrd1]

I disagree I take 55 mg of adderall every single day and I feel I really reap the benefits day in and day out and I have personally been able to study for close to ten thousand hours of neuroscience before finishing high school and I attribute some of that probably due to the amphetamine use. *Note mine is prescribed and I have severe ADHD

[Reformed-Redan]

I disagree I take 55 mg of adderall every single day and I feel I really reap the benefits day in and day out and I have personally been able to study for close to ten thousand hours of neuroscience before finishing high school and I attribute some of that probably due to the amphetamine use. *Note mine is prescribed and I have severe ADHD

I agree partly. If you use Adderall wisely it can really help with college. That is at least how I intend to use it. But, it really costs a lot in the long run on your wallet and health. Also, imagine yourself after 6 years of Adderall use, would you be able to function without it then? You could but it would be hellish for a couple of months I think.

[xks201]

Have you ever considered the ssri as detrimental to cognition instead of relying heavily on stimulants?

[mrd1]

I use a SSRI also. Although, I switched to a SNRI called effexor and requested a dosage at 150 mg to have added additional nor epinephrine transport re uptake inhibition. Actually, I have been on adderall for at least 6 years and I can't function without it. However, noone in my graduating class can function anywhere near my level. They call me the textbook. So, Ill gladly take my dependence especially compared to the horrible ADHD.

[xks201]

I get bad sexual sides from any ssri. What math level are you in mrd?

[Reformed-Redan]

Have you ever considered the ssri as detrimental to cognition instead of relying heavily on stimulants?

Not really. Sertraline has been shown to be pro-cognitive in some respects. At least I'm not aware of any studies showing it to be detrimetnal to cognitive abilities. I don't care for the sexual side effects. All I need now is to be steady, calm, and consistent.

[666illuminati]

I've been taking stimulants and ssris since age 10, currently 16. They have done me wonders, even transformed me from a world of warcraft fat nerd into a poon slayer. The downside is now I'm tolerant to them and they do me no good. I'm even having health/hormonal problems at age such as hypothyroid and kidney/liver function problems. On the hormonal side, I have no energy, gynecomastia and a hoarse voice most of the time. I think the years of adderall use and stress has contributed to adrenal fatique too

[xks201]

I don't see how anyone can keep a girlfriend while on an ssri. I feel sedated on any ssri especially as the dose builds

[mrd1]

Calculus and AP statistics. (I'm a nerd its ok to laugh. I straight up refused to date a girl after she said "You can't do science all day."

Also, I have ED from my SSRI during the first few weeks real bad. However, it came back and I regularly have multiple orgasms a day. Yohimbine I find really helps 8-16mg/day. I actually was using it as a fat burner and kinda accidentally found out it isn't just used for fat burning.

Is a poon slayer what I think it is? XD

[Multicultural Harmony]

Ok for short term use, but self-defeating in the long term.

I would be curious if ibudilast (I got the ibudilast but obviously none of the amphetamine, lol)+ amphetamine could combo well in regards to longer term use.

I won't touch amphetamines, but if I were forced at gunpoint to use one on occasion I would choose either Desoxyn or lisdexamphetamine, or perhaps even Daytrana. They are all shit drugs.

Edited by Pitolisant, 22 December 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[mrd1]

Isn't amphetamines and ssris approved for certain populations and proven to be effective? Isn't it a little reckless to bash them so harshly and recommend replacement all together with complementary alternative medical care where they don't have the same quality of evidence nor clinical evidence. I don't think all of clinical psychology is a conspiracy. And, I am not bashing supplements either fish oil, folate, 5-htp so many things can really boost the efficacy of modern medical care. But, these drugs are SAFE and EFFECTIVE when used correctly under the supervision of a doctor with a proper diagnosis.

Ibudilast seems interesting.

[666illuminati]

Isn't amphetamines and ssris approved for certain populations and proven to be effective? Isn't it a little reckless to bash them so harshly and recommend replacement all together with complementary alternative medical care where they don't have the same quality of evidence nor clinical evidence. I don't think all of clinical psychology is a conspiracy. And, I am not bashing supplements either fish oil, folate, 5-htp so many things can really boost the efficacy of modern medical care. But, these drugs are SAFE and EFFECTIVE when used correctly under the supervision of a doctor with a proper diagnosis.

Ibudilast seems interesting.

It's not harsh at all to bash SSRIs. I do believe in all the conspiracies and whatnot surrounding them, and they have been proven to be effective compared to a placebo in 1/3rd of patients. Many, manyyyy natural supplements have been proven to provide just as much relief from depression, if not more, than ssris, without the side effects.

[Multicultural Harmony]

Ibudilast seems interesting.

Ibudilast isn't that special on its own, but I imagine it could be used alongside amphetamines / methylphenidates as a way to improve sustainability, much in the same way low dose memantine can augment the effect of stims w/its D2 agonism. Take enough memantine and you'll notice it also has psychotic properties.

I'll stand by my opinion though, the only real use for someone w/out ADHD would perhaps be a soldier going into combat as to boost false confidence before being shot at.

I'm still curious if ibudilast could turn amphetamines into something more useful, but I'd rather not bother with amphetamines.

I think the main problem w/SSRIs is that they can decrease positive affect via 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c chronic agonism due to increased availability of 5-ht at the synaptic cleft.

I am not against SSRI's I am only against the cookie-cutter study known as STAR*D.

Edited by Pitolisant, 22 December 2013 - 10:54 PM.

[Max Headroom Incident]

Amphetamine CAN be safe if taken in prescribed doses for an actual medical condition (narcolepsy, ADHD, etc). It becomes damaging when you binge and neglect to eat or sleep for days on end. Tolerance builds over time so you require more to achieve the same effect. Unfortunately, no tolerance builds to its dopamine receptor-damaging effects.

It improves focus and alertness but is no smart drug because it comes with a cost--dopamine depletion. True smart drugs do not take anything away.

[Multicultural Harmony]

Amphetamine CAN be safe if taken in prescribed doses for an actual medical condition (narcolepsy, ADHD, etc). It becomes damaging when you binge and neglect to eat or sleep for days on end. Tolerance builds over time so you require more to achieve the same effect. Unfortunately, no tolerance builds to its dopamine receptor-damaging effects.

It improves focus and alertness but is no smart drug because it comes with a cost--dopamine depletion. True smart drugs do not take anything away.

http://www.medicalda...budilast-244892

Anyone ever combine their shit-drug w/ something like ibudilast?

Still curious about this potential combo. Could ibudilast turn this category of shit-drugs into something useful? Who knows.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

yadayada, you are correct insofar as using amphetamines alone, but FYI pretty much all the side effects of amphetamines can be heavily mitigated. Check out "Protecting the brain and body while on amphetamines" which fairly well sums up the highlights of the research identified in another forum's "Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction" threads.

The tl;dr version is to break down each side effect to a specific pathway, and then add another drug that counters it without introducing more unwanted effects. You can counter dopamine transporter reversal with modafinil, dopamine metabolism with selegiline, reactive oxygen and nitrogen species oxidative damage with a whole host of antioxidants, hypertension from norepinephrine release with clonidine or guanfacine... the list goes on and on but those are the highest impact targets.

And I don't particularly like the dichotomy of "therapeutic" amphetamine use versus amphetamine use, the only difference (as current ADHD research puts it) is endogenous dopamine transporter activity being higher in the former case, and thus the therapeutic effects exceeding the harm from treatment in many cases. But even if you are using them for ADHD, you should still be actively mitigating the adverse effects.

Edit: Ibudilast does look somewhat promising, but pretty non-selective. Also more research needs to be carried out into less neurotoxic amphetamines, check out dimethylamphetamine for an interesting read that was unfortunately never heavily followed up on. I figure if we can get non-neurotoxic entacotgens like MDAI and MDMAI from neurotoxic drugs like MDMA, we can further explore neurotoxicity reduction in development of pure stimulants... it just seems entactogens and hallucinogens are more popular.

Also re:SSRIs: I don't believe there is a conspiracy going on for anything other than profit, but if you look at tianeptine (an SSRE that causes SERT downregulation instead)... that's the direction we need to be going in drug development when you compare adverse effect profiles.

Edited by 3AlarmLampscooter, 23 December 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[Multicultural Harmony]

Please don't combine selegiline with amphetamines, lol. That is a recipe for a psychotic disaster.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Please don't combine selegiline with amphetamines, lol. That is a recipe for a psychotic disaster.

While possible psychiatric symptoms are going to vary from person to person, the prescribing contraindication for safety actually turns out to be pretty unwarranted for selective MAOB-Is: http://www.sciencedi...091305705003722

In my experience, psychosis is just plain not an issue if you aren't staying up days at a time, and can be heavily mitigated by antipsychotics if you are (although it still doesn't make it a good idea...).

[Multicultural Harmony]

Hearing voices in your head gets old after about a week. BE ultra-cautious comboing 2 drugs that both have pro-psychotic capability on their own.

[Constantine Vorobyoff]

Amphetamines work! Enough said. However some people go way to far with it, and it's easy to.
''Please don't combine selegiline with amphetamines'' - it can be done to increase sensitization and decrease the volume of side effects due to lower doses. But doses should be reduced!!
Modafinil is not better. It works but effects on cognition decrease after a week. With ampetamines you can go longer, but it will hurt harder after.

Edited by Constantine Vorobyoff, 24 December 2013 - 12:43 AM.