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Adderall/amphetamine, really just not worth it?

amphetamine damage gain negatives

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#31 3AlarmLampscooter

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 08:40 AM

Modafinil is not better. It works but effects on cognition decrease after a week. With ampetamines you can go longer, but it will hurt harder after.


I really wouldn't generalize like that. Maybe it's true for you, but there are objective measures that co-administering it with amphetamines is a good idea: http://onlinelibrary....20943/abstract

Also psychosis for a week? The occasional time I'm up long enough to start getting visual distortions, I'll start antipsychotics within the hour. You're right about lowering the doses though, the that is the entire point of selegiline+amphetamines. You can get way more bang for your buck at low doses if done right.

#32 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 06:37 PM

I can't stand antipsychotics, they feel too much like a sloppy lobotomy and would rather suffer psychosis. I use other subs which do take a bit longer to correct, by far the best solution is to avoid anything that has pro-psychotic potential. Solves the issue completely if the cause is drug-induced. For ppl that have psychosis naturally, obviously D2 antagonists would be a first stop.

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#33 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 06:56 PM

I can't stand antipsychotics, they feel too much like a sloppy lobotomy and would rather suffer psychosis. I use other subs which do take a bit longer to correct, by far the best solution is to avoid anything that has pro-psychotic potential. Solves the issue completely if the cause is drug-induced. For ppl that have psychosis naturally, obviously D2 antagonists would be a first stop.

Not necessarily. There are new antipsychotics that are actually D2 agonists. Look Abilify and irs successor Brexpiprazole.

In a way, Brexpiprazole, seems like a wonder drug. Targets ADD, MDD, and schizofrenia. Wonder if anyone would be interested in a group buy.

#34 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 12:25 AM

yea, but it's still a partial agonist, meaning it can just as well act as if it were choking up the receptor's binding spot versus a full agonist.

Avoiding a hyperactive DA-ergic system in the first place works rather well. It doesn't make sense to take an antipsychoti , even 'as needed' for the sake of taking an amphetamine or any other DA-ergic stimulant. You can indirectly modulate dopamine through non-dopamine means such as nicotinic receptors or 5-htr's. This bypasses a lot of the toxicity associated with attempting to abuse dopamine directly, and more often than not gets the DA only where it is most needed. Excitotoxic monoamines deserve more caution than inhibitory monoamines.

Edited by Pitolisant, 25 December 2013 - 12:26 AM.


#35 3AlarmLampscooter

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 01:33 AM

yea, but it's still a partial agonist, meaning it can just as well act as if it were choking up the receptor's binding spot versus a full agonist.

Avoiding a hyperactive DA-ergic system in the first place works rather well. It doesn't make sense to take an antipsychoti , even 'as needed' for the sake of taking an amphetamine or any other DA-ergic stimulant. You can indirectly modulate dopamine through non-dopamine means such as nicotinic receptors or 5-htr's. This bypasses a lot of the toxicity associated with attempting to abuse dopamine directly, and more often than not gets the DA only where it is most needed. Excitotoxic monoamines deserve more caution than inhibitory monoamines.


But avoiding dopamine toxicity while on stimulants was the entire point of my previous post... and another very tolerable antipsychotic is lurasidone. If I take it when not experiencing psychosis, I honestly can't tell I'm on anything aside from thermogenic effects. Not saying that nicotinic and serotonergic modulation isn't also a good target, just that if you are smart about things you can get strong results from dopaminergics with a cocktail that prevents adverse effects.

#36 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 02:14 AM

yea, but it's still a partial agonist, meaning it can just as well act as if it were choking up the receptor's binding spot versus a full agonist.

Avoiding a hyperactive DA-ergic system in the first place works rather well. It doesn't make sense to take an antipsychoti , even 'as needed' for the sake of taking an amphetamine or any other DA-ergic stimulant. You can indirectly modulate dopamine through non-dopamine means such as nicotinic receptors or 5-htr's. This bypasses a lot of the toxicity associated with attempting to abuse dopamine directly, and more often than not gets the DA only where it is most needed. Excitotoxic monoamines deserve more caution than inhibitory monoamines.


But avoiding dopamine toxicity while on stimulants was the entire point of my previous post... and another very tolerable antipsychotic is lurasidone. If I take it when not experiencing psychosis, I honestly can't tell I'm on anything aside from thermogenic effects. Not saying that nicotinic and serotonergic modulation isn't also a good target, just that if you are smart about things you can get strong results from dopaminergics with a cocktail that prevents adverse effects.

I sent you a PM regarding lurasidone.

Apropos, I'm thinking if Brexpiprazole isn't to hard to synth, might be worth a shot?

#37 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 04:34 AM

I suppose what I mean is that if you get psychotic symptoms from your stimulants it is probably the best practice to avoid taking that stimulant rather than attempting to patch it up. Psychosis is a severe complication that can result in permanent life altering shittyness.

For reducing stimulant toxicity I think ibudilast is worth a try. You can only get it from Japanese pharmacies though.

Edited by Pitolisant, 25 December 2013 - 04:38 AM.


#38 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 08:41 PM

I'll quit my whining about stimulants, I'd rather form solutions. Stimulants COULD be useful, if it weren't for the fact they are unsustainable in the long run. Let's form a list of potentials:

1. So we have crap like low dose memantine, which works for some.
2. We have harder to obtain crap with potentially greater potential, such as ibudilast.
3. We have mysterious crap like Thiethylperazine which may have antipsychotic and cognitive enhancing potential on its own, as well as having no DA receptor antagonism that I know of.

So, 2 stabs in the dark. Ibudilast and thiethylperazine, one that may protect against the addictive properties and neuroimmune dysregulating nature of stimulants somewhat, the other which may reduce the propsychotic risk of stimulant abuse as well as potentially protect against stimulant-induced cognitive decline.

Edited by Pitolisant, 25 December 2013 - 08:42 PM.

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#39 3AlarmLampscooter

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 10:57 PM

So, 2 stabs in the dark. Ibudilast and thiethylperazine, one that may protect against the addictive properties and neuroimmune dysregulating nature of stimulants somewhat, the other which may reduce the propsychotic risk of stimulant abuse as well as potentially protect against stimulant-induced cognitive decline.


They also both look interesting drugs, but modafinil and selegiline have the same effects more directly and selectively by preventing doapmine transporter reversal and oxidation of dopamine respectively in a dose-dependent fashion.

#40 brainstorm11

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 03:55 AM

I'm afraid it seems more people go too far with amphetamines than don't.

Try some phenylpiracetam as a replacement (but there are tolerance issues).

#41 Sciencyst

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 08:25 AM

I use a SSRI also. Although, I switched to a SNRI called effexor and requested a dosage at 150 mg to have added additional nor epinephrine transport re uptake inhibition. Actually, I have been on adderall for at least 6 years and I can't function without it. However, noone in my graduating class can function anywhere near my level. They call me the textbook. So, Ill gladly take my dependence especially compared to the horrible ADHD.

Pretty much sums it up.

I was on Adderall for about 2.5 years, and I deeply regret it. Sure, it helped me in school, it helped me be "a productive member of society" but amphetamine has a tendency to make one devoid of personality and very zombie-like. While I was taking it with Zoloft (which is a very weak DRI) I felt completely fine and it seemed to help me. When I quit the Zoloft, Adderall became completely different (or at least I was "there enough" to notice its actual effect on me). It tended to make me very narcissistic, just completely pissed off at everything and everyone, insanely isolated, hellishly irritable, and unbearably paranoid and deathly anxious. You see, amphetamine behaviourally sensitizes a user to its effects, even after one use (at least in rats http://www.jneurosci...9/21/9579.short), which is heavily implicated in its detrimental long term-use effects, including psychosis. This sensitization also causes one to feel (the negative) effects at lower doses, but the beneficial effects nearly disappear. I felt like being on an SSRI prevented me from becoming sensitized (or at least noticing it), because when I took the Adderall after withdrawing from sertraline I felt like I had all of the sensitization built up from the last 2.5 years manifesting all at once, quite suddenly. This caused me to try Focalin, but I seemed intolerant to it as well, in a sort of dysautonomia-like way.. my body did not react properly to it. It felt like OCD-psychosis in a pill.

Adderall is wonderful the first few times (like many drugs of abuse), but tolerance builds rapidly, and eventually you need it to function. It's like replacement-dopamine when you come to that stage. You may try to get that honey moon effect, but in all actuality you will never feel it (nor that kind of pleasure, chances are) again. It has been about three months without Adderall, and I have almost lost my job several times because of ht severe lack of ability to do anything.. everything is overwhelmingly confusing. Nothing makes sense. I can't rationalize. I can only have small bursts of thought, rarely do I have pre-Adderall-type deep, insightful, contemplative thoughts or trains of thought. I can only think very simplistically now.. I feel severed of any spirituality, creativity, or personality. My IQ feels noticeably lowered. My motivation is non-existant; I drank the strongest energy drink I could find (NOS @ ~200mg caffeine) and was still nearly falling asleep at work.

I apologize for the rant, and I do agree that there are a few lucky bastards out there who can get away with using Adderall/amphetamine dail & chronically with little to no ill-effects, but the myriad of studies show that it is very unlikely to be immune from its proven health effects, and often those who feel fine on it only say so because they haven't attempted to quit taking it, nor do they correlate it with subtle differences in their general health. Further, amphetamine, when it causes severe disturbances in one's life, the user will usually completely avoid thinking the drug has anything to do with it and will blame everything from allergies to the government before they realize the true source. In retrospect, whenever I notified my psych doctor of any changes in temperament, I was always quick to blame everything BUT the Adderall, in fact it has been the one med I've been the most consistent and unwilling to change with. Keep in mind this is my own personal experience and does not reflect that of others, but please do note these are all possible consequences of chronic use of amphetamine. And, I always took mine as prescribed, even taking days off every once in a while.

Edited by katuskoti, 27 December 2013 - 08:25 AM.

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#42 bestbefore

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 08:56 AM

Exactly what I saw happening with a friend of mine katuskoti, exactly..

#43 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 11:24 AM

I think some of the people here want to find a way so that it can be used chronically though. Who wouldn't want to keep the initial benefits of amphetamine. Too bad the shit is highly toxic with all sorts of issues which each need their own solution. Addiction should probably be the first to tackle before even bothering long term stimulant use. If you somehow don't have any addiction problems then maybe move onto tackling other issues like toxicity and tolerance. Tolerance of course is the one most stimulant users would like to see vanish. Party now pay later, to hell with toxicity, lol. If I were forced to be on stimulants the rest of my life my main priority would be preventing the horrible crash all amphetamine-like stimulants give me, then next preventing the likely impulse to take more and more of a toxic substance, fortunately never been there, nor do I want to be.

Has anyone ever found a way to prevent tolerance? I don't think so, but I'd like to be wrong. Only a bunch of halfway methods like cycling on/off, augmenting with DAergics like memantine/etc. I don't have the dedication required to be a user.

#44 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 01:57 PM

crap like Thiethylperazine which may have antipsychotic and cognitive enhancing potential on its own, as well as having no DA receptor antagonism that I know of.



Scratch that idea, it blocks D2, lol.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15469457

#45 3AlarmLampscooter

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 02:01 PM

Has anyone ever found a way to prevent tolerance? I don't think so, but I'd like to be wrong. Only a bunch of halfway methods like cycling on/off, augmenting with DAergics like memantine/etc. I don't have the dedication required to be a user.


Selegiline and not using chronically would be the two biggest factors I'd cite. Also 2-FMA seems to inherently have less of a tolerance effect than regular amphetamine, from all the anecdotal reports I've read.

#46 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 09:44 PM

I'd say use it 'responsibly'. If you're going to college, then fine use it to get an edge above the rest and help you get it done with. For some people college and education becomes hell after primary school, middle school, then high school. It just becomes mundane and a pain. If adderall helps, if ritalin helps even better, if modafinil helps awesome! Just get that college out of the way and plan the years you are going to be using the adderall. And when you know you are going to have to get off of it, then plan that too. Make sure you don't just quit cold turkey. Start taking selegiline to boost DA levels while you are tapering down the adderall, take cofactors, take Tyrosine, start excersizing. Drink Jiaogulan tea for its restorative effects on the limbic system. Cerebrolysin might be an option. Don't forget to take ALCAR alongside adderall and ALA. Zinc boosts the efficiency of ADD stimulant drugs, so take that too. Cycle the shit, take magnesium if it helps.

Also, if you notice an increase in paranoia, lower the dose. Don't chase the high. You will not feel the same as the first time you took adderall, that's your brain telling you its becoming addicted to the effects. A thing I have to point out. You will never feel the same way as the first time you took adderall, its just not viable. Fortunately, the first time I took adderall it was 10mg so I did not feel high.
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#47 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 12:27 AM

Lol, I threw away the rest of my adderall. I'm sick of the comedown and depression after continuous useage.
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#48 xks201

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 12:39 AM

Lol I guess you answered your own question then. Rip addy

#49 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 12:46 AM

Lol I guess you answered your own question then. Rip addy

The only way. :-D :laugh:

#50 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 04:58 AM

"
Drug addiction has many phases, including initiation or euphoria phase
(i.e., drug-induced rewarding or reinforcing effects), maintenance or dependence
phase (i.e., compulsive drug taking), tolerance, withdrawal episodes, protracted
abstinence, and craving and relapse (or reinstatement). The latter stages are characterized
by lasting neural adaptations in the brain, promoting obsessive drugseeking
behavior via decreased value of natural rewards and impaired cognitive
control."

Funny quote from a humorless random textbook authored by cyborgs.

Edited by Pitolisant, 29 December 2013 - 04:59 AM.


#51 Keizo

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:36 AM

To be honest I'd rather just use small doses of amphetamine and not add 10 other things that "might improve things". Except for some anti-oxidants and so on, of course. In practice you really don't know all the interactions if you were to throw in other potent compounds.
Dextroamphetamine, is I guess fairly benign. Anything from 15mg to 50mg probably is very safe whatever that means (or equivalent dosage Vyvanse/Elvanse). It seems to improve general well-being reported for people with ADHD. Now of course, those questionares or whatever it was does not measure every detail of well-being. I could wager a guess and maybe say that those people have achieved things in life but are emotionally blunted in some ways after years of use (but the net result is viewed positively).

After I quit benzodiazepines I barely tolerate 5mg dextroamphetamine. Before, with 1-2 weeks break from benzo, I could use 30mg and view it as neutral and only positive. I get these damn migraines now, get drowsy and loose concentration, after a couple of days of 15mg/day. Stretching out all my muscles might help. And after minor Cerebrolysin use, I seem to tolerate it slightly better.

It can be a very productive drug. Lateral thinking is greatly increased, and I can express myself with much greater ease... I take complex clusters of ideas, and draw them down in the form of simple geometry... Even when it does work very well I do experience loosing some part of myself, I don't feel the same drive, the drive to do things seems more physical and constructed than it otherwise is. Pessimism is also greatly increased while using it.
A good example is how it increases sex drive, but the thing you seem attracted to is literally the flesh (the smell, the look, etc). Now it does seem to increase empathy sometimes, but mostly it makes me pessimistic.

It does perform somewhat of a change of personality, however small, and I've only used it for 2 weeks at maximum of 30mg/day.... What I find most disturbing is that it for me seems very hard to notice that I'm even taking the thing. That is my conscious thinking seems unable to notice it. The only other drug that has this effect for me is Nicotine. Of course partly it's due to the fact that it isn't very mind-altering to begin with, at least not experientially.

Personally, I will only use it as something to help me in hard times. It isn't that great after you've tried it out a few times. Unless I find a really good way of removing the migraine and related symptoms, and the pessimism.

Edited by Nume, 29 December 2013 - 07:48 AM.


#52 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:37 PM

Ok, so my curiosity got the best of me so I decided to perform a mini experiment.

I took 35mg of phentermine immediate release, which for me is rather stimulating. When I started to get some of the adverse come-down effects I dosed with 10mg of Ibudilast to see what would happen. Well, it seems to noticeably diminish the crash I was starting to have. Hmm. I'd have to repeat this several times to get over my suspicion that it might be placebo, but if it isn't placebo this could be a combination worth trialing again in the future to diminish the horrid crash I always experience from stimulants. I'm gonna go take another 10mg ibudilast just to make sure it's not my imagination playing head-games with me...

Edited by Pitolisant, 10 January 2014 - 11:43 PM.


#53 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:57 PM

Ok, so my curiosity got the best of me so I decided to perform a mini experiment.

I took 35mg of phentermine immediate release, which for me is rather stimulating. When I started to get some of the adverse come-down effects I dosed with 10mg of Ibudilast to see what would happen. Well, it seems to noticeably diminish the crash I was starting to have. Hmm. I'd have to repeat this several times to get over my suspicion that it might be placebo, but if it isn't placebo this could be a combination worth trialing again in the future to diminish the horrid crash I always experience from stimulants. I'm gonna go take another 10mg ibudilast just to make sure it's not my imagination playing head-games with me...


Some of the scatter-brained head-achey brain fog is still there but is rather mild, however, the anxiety I normally get during comedown is gone.

Edited by Pitolisant, 10 January 2014 - 11:58 PM.


#54 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 12:28 AM

Ok, so my curiosity got the best of me so I decided to perform a mini experiment.

I took 35mg of phentermine immediate release, which for me is rather stimulating. When I started to get some of the adverse come-down effects I dosed with 10mg of Ibudilast to see what would happen. Well, it seems to noticeably diminish the crash I was starting to have. Hmm. I'd have to repeat this several times to get over my suspicion that it might be placebo, but if it isn't placebo this could be a combination worth trialing again in the future to diminish the horrid crash I always experience from stimulants. I'm gonna go take another 10mg ibudilast just to make sure it's not my imagination playing head-games with me...


Some of the scatter-brained head-achey brain fog is still there but is rather mild, however, the anxiety I normally get during comedown is gone.


Much of the brain fog / headache feeling is gone. Maybe the ibulast just required more time to kick in, idk. Plus it seems to have brought back some of the stimulant benefit of the phentermine I took many hours ago. Kind of lost track since I've been reading compulsively.

I am somewhat tempted to take 10mg more of ibudliast for a total dose of 30mg today. 40mg is more or less the maximum dose for ibudilast. 20mg is the most common dosage.

Edited by Pitolisant, 11 January 2014 - 12:30 AM.


#55 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 12:35 AM

Ok, so my curiosity got the best of me so I decided to perform a mini experiment.

I took 35mg of phentermine immediate release, which for me is rather stimulating. When I started to get some of the adverse come-down effects I dosed with 10mg of Ibudilast to see what would happen. Well, it seems to noticeably diminish the crash I was starting to have. Hmm. I'd have to repeat this several times to get over my suspicion that it might be placebo, but if it isn't placebo this could be a combination worth trialing again in the future to diminish the horrid crash I always experience from stimulants. I'm gonna go take another 10mg ibudilast just to make sure it's not my imagination playing head-games with me...


Some of the scatter-brained head-achey brain fog is still there but is rather mild, however, the anxiety I normally get during comedown is gone.


Much of the brain fog / headache feeling is gone. Maybe the ibulast just required more time to kick in, idk. Plus it seems to have brought back some of the stimulant benefit of the phentermine I took many hours ago. Kind of lost track since I've been reading compulsively.

I am somewhat tempted to take 10mg more of ibudliast for a total dose of 30mg ibudilast today. 40mg is more or less the maximum dose for ibudilast. 20mg is the most common dosage.


So I completely caved in and took the extra 10mg for total of 30 mg of ibudilast, it is making the entire transition go rather smooth. All jitters, brainfog, headach-like and anxiety effects are almost completely gone as far as I can tell but I still got some stimulant-like residual effects from the phentermine as well as appetite suppression. I'm going to have to try this combination again in the future, once Im done w/my current cycle of reading, of course.

Another thing I've noticed is that this combo has almost completely annihilated the hedonic effect of the 4mg nicotine lozenges I tend to pop like Pez (a bad and expensive habit). I can probably substitute a nicotine patch with this combination, normally I prefer lozenges bc it has a stronger effect vs anhedonia than patches do. But I'm not feeling at all anhedonic and the lozenges dont seem to have an additive effect on this combo. I've always wanted to do the patches instead of lozenges this may present that chance.

Edited by Pitolisant, 11 January 2014 - 12:40 AM.


#56 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 12:53 AM

Currently: No anxiety. No brain fog. No headache... In fact I feel better now than I did when the phentermine peaked about 3 or more hours ago. This is completely unlike any other experience I've had with stimulants (mostly all just bad). I wish I had kept better track of the times I was taking all this junk today. It would be useful to compare for the next time I try it out. happy

The best description I have for this combination is calm, focused and more motivated than usual. I took the phentermine the moment I got up this morning after eating breakfast. It is strange that I feel better now than at its peak. Did not start adding ibudilast until I first felt the crash coming on to ruin the rest of my day. I am also on high dose nicotine so that may also be influencing results. BUt I am always on nicotine.. but normally don't feel this way.

Edited by Pitolisant, 11 January 2014 - 01:01 AM.


#57 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:16 AM

Well, the stimulant effect has worn off, somewhat tired now, a bit more than usual at this hour.

#58 Multicultural Harmony

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 05:50 AM

Sad to report that there was still ultimately a crash.
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#59 Max Headroom Incident

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 10:18 AM

Phentermine has been a GREAT amphetamine substitute for me. On paper it looks like a bunch of shitty norepinephrine stimulation, but for some reason it lifts my mood and energy levels amazingly. (It's more of a physical stimulation where amphetamines are more mental). Just 15 mg of phentermine keeps me going for hours without the anxiety of 2-FMA. Maybe 35 mg was too much for you?

I now do 2 weeks on phen and 2 weeks on 2-FMA every month to keep from building a tolerance to either one. If only phen wasn't so expensive :\

Edited by Max Headroom Incident, 11 January 2014 - 10:20 AM.


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#60 lourdaud

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:36 PM

Phentermine has been a GREAT amphetamine substitute for me. On paper it looks like a bunch of shitty norepinephrine stimulation, but for some reason it lifts my mood and energy levels amazingly. (It's more of a physical stimulation where amphetamines are more mental). Just 15 mg of phentermine keeps me going for hours without the anxiety of 2-FMA. Maybe 35 mg was too much for you?

I now do 2 weeks on phen and 2 weeks on 2-FMA every month to keep from building a tolerance to either one. If only phen wasn't so expensive :\


Does phentermine induce that burned-out feeling you get after a while on amphetamine? How's the comedown?





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