LONGECITY

On examine, it says:
 

Once supplementation is stopped, intestinal colonization will start to revert to normal. Further research is needed to establish the exact time frame, but it has been observed to occur between half a week to one month after supplementation is stopped. The actual time may depend on whether supplementation took place over the long term or the short term.

https://examine.com/...cillus-reuteri/

I was thinking about grabbing a few boxes and doing an every-other-day dose of 5b CFU (not sure if it would be better in the morning fasted or with meals.)

Have other strains been studied that persist after supplementation to provide lasting benefits?

I wonder about the ecology of our digestive tracts and how to encourage the beneficial bacteria in probiotics to colonize and persist. There is so much unknown, it remains in many ways a black box and I am not an expert in the field. In theory taking a probiotic should be analogous to planting seeds in a field. How to encourage those seeds (bacteria) to thrive in the long term so one does not need to constantly take them? I've read many anecdotes that the beneficial effects people feel from probiotics stop when you stop taking them, and I have experienced this myself. And I read somewhere, I apologize I can no loner find the reference, a study that showed that bacteria in probiotics were found alive in the feces of people who consumed them but did not colonize the layers of the digestive tract. Are the bacteria in probiotics eventually out-competed in the digestive tract once you stop supplementation? How can you get the good bacteria  in probiotics to colonize the layers of the digestive tract? I just came across this interesting study that may provide some clues:

What do you make of this?

Nutrients. 2019 May 28;11(6). pii: E1207.

What do you make of this?

Different strains if the same specie can have opposing effects. The ignorance of this fact allows many supplement companies to profit from, by only indicating the specie, but not the strain. One example is Escherichia coli, of which only the strain Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 is a known benificial probiotic.
 

From selfhacked.com:

 

Weight

The microbiota composition varies between lean and obese individuals [15].

It seems like some strains of L. reuteri may cause weight gain, while other strains can cause weight loss [15].

A surprisingly high level of Lactobacillus species has been found in the microbiota of obese people, especially L. reuteri. In fact, when individuals had strains of L. reuteri that are resistant to antibiotics (vancomycin), they gained weight after antibiotic (vancomycin) treatment [15, 45].

However, in a randomized, double-blind and placebo-controlled clinical trial, taking L. reuteri JBD301 for 12 weeks significantly reduced body weight in overweight adults [15].

These results seem conflicting because some L. reuteri strains can cause weight gain, while others cause weight loss [15].

In a study that tested different strains of L. reuteri, only PTA 4659 efficiently reduced the bodyweight of mice fed with high-fat diet (HFD), whereas L6798-treated mice even gained some weight [15, 46].

L. reuteri GMNL-263 reduces both insulin resistance and fatty liver in rats [47]

This study gives a list of known probiotic strains with health benefits: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4053917/

How can you get the good bacteria  in probiotics to colonize the layers of the digestive tract? I just came across this interesting study that may provide some clues:

Here an article summarizing which commercial strains have some persistance:

https://microbiomepr...ic-persistence/

One thing shocking I heard in the first video of this article (https://microbiomepr...or-healthy-gut/) is, that western guts usually contain about 1000 strains of bacteria, Hadza Hunter/Gatherer 3000, and formerly uncontacted Yanomani even 4000. What an extinction event right in each of us!

However, there is a simple remedy to increase diversity again:

 

http://ucsdnews.ucsd...ats-in-your-gut

Big data dump from the world’s largest citizen science microbiome project reveals how factors such as diet, antibiotics and mental health status can influence the microbial and molecular makeup of your gut

Emerging trends
All of the data collected by the American Gut Project are publicly available, without participants’ identifying information. This open access approach allows researchers around the world to mine the data for meaningful associations between factors such as diet, exercise, lifestyle, microbial makeup and health. Here are a few observations that have emerged so far:

Diet. The number of plant types in a person’s diet plays a role in the diversity of his or her gut microbiome—the number of different types of bacteria living there. No matter the diet they prescribed to (vegetarian, vegan, etc.), participants who ate more than 30 different plant types per week (41 people) had gut microbiomes that were more diverse than those who ate 10 or fewer types of plants per week (44 people). The gut samples of these two groups also differed in the types of molecules present.

Antibiotics. The gut microbiomes of American Gut Project participants who reported that they took antibiotics in the past month (139 people) were, as predicted, less diverse than people who reported that they had not taken antibiotics in the last year (117 people). But, paradoxically, people who had taken antibiotics recently had significantly greater diversity in the types of chemicals in their gut samples than those who had not taken antibiotics in the past year.

The participants who ate more than 30 plants per week also had fewer antibiotic resistance genes in their gut microbiomes than people who ate 10 or fewer plants. In other words, the bacteria living in the guts of the plant-lovers had fewer genes that encode the molecular pumps that help the bacteria avoid antibiotics. This study didn’t address why this might be the case, but the researchers think it could be because people who eat fewer plants may instead be eating more meat from antibiotic-treated animals or processed foods with antibiotics added as a preservative, which may favor the survival of antibiotic-resistant bacteria...

x
 

However, there is a simple remedy to increase diversity again:

 

Or you could try to find a healthy, uncontaminated young human and receive a fecal flora transplant.
 

Or you could try to find a healthy, uncontaminated young human and receive a fecal flora transplant.

That only really helps temporarily with a really abbarant microbiome, and would need high-tec pathogen screening. But since the diversity of the microbiome depends on the diversity of ongoing food-intake, even with a couple of FMTs diversity after some time would just revert to the usual low of low diversity diets.
 

Either way, even if high for western standards, it still would by only about a quarter of diversity found in Hunter/Gatherers.

Interesting thing about l. reuteri that it produces also vitamin B12, of course with cobalt provided. I was thinking it would be possible to grow it in fermented drinks such as kvass or kombucha? Or perhaps there are more interesting bacteria for anti aging effects?

 Or perhaps there are more interesting bacteria for anti aging effects?

I've been thinking about this lately and I think that there is much that is unknown. The majority of probiotics are Lactobacillus based. But is supplementing continuously with a narrow range of bacteria really the best approach? I think you want diversity. I make my own kimchi and indulge in funky cheeses on a regular basis so I get some good bacteria from those sources. I take a few different probiotics now that cover a range of different genera and species. I will take a different one at dinner each night unless I consume a dinner that includes kimchi or funky cheese or something else fermented:

BioGaia - reuteri based.  I still take this but am currently out need to order more.

Align Probiotics Supplement - Bifidobacterium longum subsp. longum 35624

Silver Fern Ultimate Probiotic Supplement- Saccharomyces boulardii; Bacillus species (Bacillus subtilis HU58, Bacillus clausii, and Bacillus coagulans); Pediococcus acidilactici

AOR, Probiotic 3- Enterococcus faecium, Clostridium butyricum and Bacillus subtilis

Biosense  Probiotics Supplement-  lactobacillus acidophilus (La-14) Bifidobacterium lactis (Bl-04) lactobacillus plantarum (Lp-115) lactobacillus paracasei (Lpc-37) 

Lifetension lactobacillus gasseri

MIYARISAN STRONG MIYARISAN 330 - Clostridium butyricum 

https://www.biogaia....euteri-strains/

I intensely research, multiply and take multiple strains (non-professionally) for 8y+. Also, been trying to rid myself of a CFS that literally almost finished with me 2-3y back. After getting shockingly better for a week with a FMT and finding a scientist who had CFS some 3 times and got lasting complete remission the 3 times in his life through consciously changing his gut microbiome, I've been trying to put my hands on the best strains ever to correct what I believe may be a microbiome problem. Am 90% better - still not healthy, but serious, alarming and scary autoimmune complications are gone and energy is 60% back - but I also think that maybe the probiotics did all they could do and I need something else to reach full remission (been trying to get Necator Americanus or other "old pal" to try and live 100% symptom-free, but no company I've contacted is shipping to Brazil right now.)

Here's the strains I've been using, all multiplied in warm cow's milk except where stated otherwise: 

- BioGaia's Reuteris

- E. coli Nissle 1917: I believe it arrived all dead to me - bought it from an Aussie pharmacy but it stood blocked in customs for 2-3 weeks - when I dropped some 8 pills' content to multiply in warm milk, it took ~2 days to create a yougurt, which is exactly how long it took for the "control" batch of warm milk to create a similar/the same yougurt  :(  

- Equilibrium from GB: it's the richest probiotic I've ever found - 115 strains, and very different ones too https://www.generalb...ibrium/strains/ - I recommend one researches it if one doesn't know about it yet) but it's kept alive in flax powder - don't know if warm milk multiplies all strains, specially with a decent balance (probably not), but I can see it creates a VERY different, foamy "yogurt".

- Milk Kefir: I've mixed EVERY kefir I could put my hands on from every country I could find so I can have the most complete and diverse one possible

- Sauer kraut: after complete fermentation I put these bacterias in warm milk too...

- Experimental yogurt: I ferment milk in radically diverse environments (cities, natural parks, and especially dirt/air from rural areas, unwashed/agrotoxic-free growing fruit, etc);

- Fermented organ meats: especially chicken liver;

- and a handful of other "generic" probiotics sold in drugstores I got as samples and over the net joined together.

Also drank unpasteurized goat's milk and unpasteurized cow collostrum, but the collostrum got to me frozen, which probably killed the more ephemeral, weaker strains... 

I'd also very much like to get my hands on multiple human colostrums and breastmilks like I've seen many other bodybuilders do - and drink/multiply all the strains.

I'd also like to get some male Hadza and male gorilla feces to run a lab to check the strains and perhaps do an FMT, but that's a whole other story... 

__________________________________________________________________________

The point is, wow, 15 pages. We've got an army of probiotic fans here.

If the interested ones among us were to join efforts and EXCHANGE PROBIOTIC STRAINS/MIXES, research and knowledge on how to create "the ultimate probiotic"/microbiome/probiotic medium, we might get some pretty interesting results.

(I'm not necessarily talking about commercial strains and much less doing it for commercial purposes, but strictly for the health of one and one's loved ones.)

If you reading like the idea, wanna act on it, feel free and even encouraged to PM me/drop me a line, especially if you got something to contribute to this idea and make it happen.

Dear all,

I was wondering if freezing whey from Lb. reuteri yoghurt will provide healthy and alive cultures in the future.

I only found the following relevant publication

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/17617480/

I intensely research, multiply and take multiple strains (non-professionally) for 8y+.

Did you ever monitor the changes you accomplished with microbiome testing?
 

- E. coli Nissle 1917: I believe it arrived all dead to me - bought it from an Aussie pharmacy but it stood blocked in customs for 2-3 weeks - when I dropped some 8 pills' content to multiply in warm milk, it took ~2 days to create a yougurt, which is exactly how long it took for the "control" batch of warm milk to create a similar/the same yougurt  :(  

 

I don't think you can culture E. coli in Milk. It wont make yogurt the same way Lactobacilli will. 

I don't think you can culture E. coli in Milk. It wont make yogurt the same way Lactobacilli will. 

E. coli is far less fastidious than lactobacilli. Growth in milk is very likely.

I don't think you can culture E. coli in Milk. It wont make yogurt the same way Lactobacilli will. 

E. Coli Nissle 1917/Mutaflor can be and definitely is cultured in milk: https://cfsremission...owing-your-own/ 

If it cultures "the same way Lactobacilli will", I've no idea.

Did you ever monitor the changes you accomplished with microbiome testing?
 

If you meant stool testing, unhappily no. Only symptomatic changes, which are pretty clear to me. I've gotten used to know the feeling of them working their "magic" in my belly.

E. coli is far less fastidious than lactobacilli. Growth in milk is very likely.

From my research and the experience of dozen other people I've read, absolutely agreed. (Check link above)

One thing I wonder, say you inoculate milk with E.coli 1917 or a special strain of Lactobacillus or some other probiotic, how do you know that  that strain is the predominant strain in the fermentation and that some other bacteria in the milk or from the environment has not taken over?  

Brig the milk to boiling-point first.

Interesting thread!

I´m waiting for my yoghurt machine to start breed some L. reuteri DSM 17938 and L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475.

If anyone have problems sourcing Biogaia Gastrus I guess I could buy them here in Sweden and have them shipped at self-cost 

https://www.apotea.s...t-tuggtabletter

Interesting thread!

I´m waiting for my yoghurt machine to start breed some L. reuteri DSM 17938 and L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475.

 

If anyone have problems sourcing Biogaia Gastrus I guess I could buy them here in Sweden and have them shipped at self-cost 

 

https://www.apotea.s...t-tuggtabletter

Who has tried Osfortis? Available on iherb.

No point in using Gastrus anymore with Osfortis being available.

Who has tried Osfortis? Available on iherb.

 

No point in using Gastrus anymore with Osfortis being available.

BioGaia seems to be targeting this product to women and bone health and it contains Vitamin D which I already take. What advantage does this product have over Gastrus?  Is it mainly number of bacteria per dose? I would feel strange taking something marketed specifically for women since I am not one, although this might not be rational. 

BioGaia seems to be targeting this product to women and bone health and it contains Vitamin D which I already take. What advantage does this product have over Gastrus?  Is it mainly number of bacteria per dose? I would feel strange taking something marketed specifically for women since I am not one, although this might not be rational. 

As sdxl said above: A single capsule of Osfortis has 25 times the cell count of a tablet of Gastrus and 50 times the amount of ATCC PTA 6475.

It doesn't matter who their targeted audience is or how they market it, only the product matters. Besides the added vit D, it's the same thing as Gastrus, except much more CFU.

[BioGaia funded so take with a pinch of salt] L. Reuteri ATCC 55730 (DSM 17938 is the daughter strain of this) given to workers at 108  (100 million units) for 80 days had much less sick leave than the placebo group workers (23 people reported sick days placebo vs 10 people reported sick days Reuteri) 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC1298318/

In alignment with another non-biogaia funded study:  L. Reuteri 55730 given to infants at 10 million units daily for 3 months had way less sick time 

i.e  0.17 days with fever vs 0.83 control

      0.38 days with respiratory ilness vs 0.60 control

      0.23 clinic visits vs 0.55 control

https://www.research...robiotic_Agents

Now from the earlier thread on growth of ATC 6475 & DSM 17938 https://www.frontier...20.601422/full 

its clear these strains like GLUCOSE MALTOSE RAFFINOSE LACTOSE & GLYCEROL for growth (growth medium combining glycerol shows optimal growth, not sure about ingesting this though?). https://www.frontier...01422-g002.jpg    https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/601422/fmicb-11-601422-HTML/image_m/fmicb-11-601422-g001.jpg

But L. Reuteri produces reuterin which is thought to play a major role in its benefits (antimicrobial, kills e. coli).   https://www.frontier...01422-g003.jpg 

Glycerol might even be necessary for any reuterin production.?

From this Reuterin production drops in the presence of glucose in 6475 (in 17938 its lower than the others but gives few fucks still high), where raffinose gives the highest reuterin production, and i guess stays around in the intestine for longer.   

This shows the amount of inhibiton of the reuteri on e. coli fed on different things  (bigger ring = better effect), so raffinose is clearly optimal for both strains. https://www.frontier...601422-g004.jpg

If you look at the charts they show reuterin is produced after the peak in growth about 5 hours in & stops a few hours after.  https://www.frontier...601422-g005.jpg

It's found in the small intestine.

So i'm thinking optimal intake is ingesting with couple grams dextrose tablets (glucose) to give it an initial boost? with more glucose foods / dextrose in the initial first couple hours (unless it's absorbed too quickly once it hits small intestine to have an impact)?    Then after that feed it raffinose (from beans).

looking into safety of ingesting decent amounts of glycerol & how far it even makes it into intestines.  also looks like L. Reuteri only colonizes properly in the body for maybe 4 - 6 days at a time, until epithelial cells are shed & replaced.  & not sure how long reuterin even lasts for in the human body.  I guess there's a lot of other mechanisms at play from these strains anyway. 

interestingly breast milk increases L Reuteri (key part of early immunity?) & basically supercharges DSM 17938 https://www.ncbi.nlm...es/PMC6683045/ .

& another interesting study i saw decreased a market of intestinal inflammation by 40% over 6 months @ 100 million daily, dsm 17938.   its stomach acid resistant  https://www.ncbi.nlm...cles/PMC1932720/. 

Adding iron ions to the L. Reuteri grown in raffinose decreased growth rate & decreased enzyme activity.

Adding manganese ions both enhanced growth rate + slightly increased enzyme activity overall between strains

https://www.research...rent_Metal_Ions

 

Having trouble finding foods with raffinose in gram amounts

The highest seed i found was Sunflower seeds, have about 1.5g per 100g (thats a pretty big serving of seed though & eating a lot at once can sometimes cause stool blockages)

One of the highest beans is black beans   https://journals.ash...ticle-p376.xml   but just 400mg per 100g dry weight. 

i'd assume grams would be optimal but maybe amounts in the high mgs is enough idk
 

Also harmful bacteria can utilize raffinose, lactose, other sugars too. so im not sure about the balance here.

If I didn't want to make yoghurt, could I just tip a tiny bit of the power from an Osfortis capsule in a glass of boiled and cooled water with pasteurised honey in it, and leave it for 24 hours? Just looking to boost the CFUs a bit.

Since early 2016, I have been making L. reuteri 6475 (ATCC) yogurt with Trader Joe's Organic Soy Beverage Unsweetened. I ferment for 6-12 hours at about 110F =  42C in "Ball Wide Mouth" 1 quart Mason jars. I start each new batch with about 4 large teaspoons of the previous batch. I sterilize the jars and spoons in a Pressure Cooker (autoclave) for at least 10 minutes to prevent contamination. I wear an N95 mask and clean plastic gloves during the process. I wipe down the work surfaces with isopropyl alcohol before starting. The result is firm and pleasant smelling. I make 2 jars each time.  I eat a little every day or two.  When the first jar is finished, I don't open the second jar until I am ready to use it as starter for the next batch. This is to avoid contamination.

Note that the Trader Joe's soy beverage is in a sterile, shelf-stable carton, so no need to boil it before starting. Leave the carton sealed until you start the procedure. I wipe the outside of the carton with alcohol before opening it.

Seems like the clinical trials (though ended) never published. That's usually a sign that there was no or little effect as the sponsor would typically want to crow about the results were they remarkable. Shame as I had hopes for this.

https://www.clinical...0&page=1&rank=9