59 replies to this topic

[johnjuanb1]

I didn't read the whole thread but did a study suggest it is cardiotoxic? 3 year plain leaf user here, for anxiety (both the mental aspect and physical tension) and depression and from the hundreds of hours I've spent researching and gathering anecdotes it seems to have a positive effect on the majority of the body and it's organs, at least that's what most of the older users tell me their blood/etc tests come back with after years of daily use of plain leaf... There has been a rare case or two of liver toxicity that always occurs in the first 4 weeks of use or not at all. It's apparently great for people with diabetes too, but I can't find the source.

It is addictive, don't kid yourself into thinking you can use it every other day. Twice a week, sure, but don't push it. I had a hard time with that because it increased my productivity, grades, made me cut out alcohol (frequent user) and prescription valium. It was all worth it despite the chemical dependence. my aqnxiety is maneagable and my depression is non-existant, and I never really increase my dosage, except recently I was stupid and moved from 2x-3x/day, just for the fact that I liked having a little extra before bed. IU'm now paying the consequences with a slow taper. For years I have used only 10-13 grams per day.

From what i've researched it seems like there is little to no studies actually done on Kratoms effects on health. Of the limited preliminary studies actually done, it seems that kratom induces heart arrhythmias and is cardiotoxic in vitro, and it causes very noticeable liver damage and memory loss/cognitive impairments in rats. Interestingly, in the study that showed that kratom caused liver damage in rats, it said that the rats were completely asymptomatic; they had no symptoms. So I imagine that perhaps a similar thing could be happening in humans; people using kratom could be constantly damaging their liver, yet have no symptoms. In humans doing kratom, their liver is not inflamed and appears normal. Perhaps the powerful anti-inflammatory effects of kratom prevents the liver from inflaming as it would normally do when being damaged, thus making it appear normal in tests when infact it is being constantly damaged.

Interestingly, in asian culture it seems it is very well known that long term kratom use causes darkening of the skin of the face, a very common symptom of liver cirrhosis(A form of liver disease). I haven't really seen any studies showing no damaging effects on the organs or the body, could you refer me to some of the studies you have found?

You are misleading people. The darkening of skin is due to an increase in melanin production. It has nothing to do with the liver. Kratom is similar to melanotan II in it's ability to increase melanin production.

[Tree93]

The study on cardiotoxicity is pretty much only applicable if you have a QT interval issue pre-existing or have another heart condition already... As JohnJuan said the darkening of the skin has not been associated with liver damage. I actually recall the rat study that showed MINOR liver damage was using 2 grams of pure mitragynine per kilogram. That would be like a human taking over a kilo of leaf at once. The burden of proof is on those tru=ying to say it is dangerous, not on those saying it has not been proven dangerous, but like I said that rat study actually appeared to be a great argument for it's safety in my opinion. Imagine what would happen to a rat if you gave it 2 grams of caffiene per kilogram, or 2 grams of tylenol, aspirin, etc. Hint: They would be dead

Edited by Tree93, 27 February 2015 - 04:47 PM.

[β-Endorphin]

 

 

I didn't read the whole thread but did a study suggest it is cardiotoxic? 3 year plain leaf user here, for anxiety (both the mental aspect and physical tension) and depression and from the hundreds of hours I've spent researching and gathering anecdotes it seems to have a positive effect on the majority of the body and it's organs, at least that's what most of the older users tell me their blood/etc tests come back with after years of daily use of plain leaf... There has been a rare case or two of liver toxicity that always occurs in the first 4 weeks of use or not at all. It's apparently great for people with diabetes too, but I can't find the source.

It is addictive, don't kid yourself into thinking you can use it every other day. Twice a week, sure, but don't push it. I had a hard time with that because it increased my productivity, grades, made me cut out alcohol (frequent user) and prescription valium. It was all worth it despite the chemical dependence. my aqnxiety is maneagable and my depression is non-existant, and I never really increase my dosage, except recently I was stupid and moved from 2x-3x/day, just for the fact that I liked having a little extra before bed. IU'm now paying the consequences with a slow taper. For years I have used only 10-13 grams per day.

From what i've researched it seems like there is little to no studies actually done on Kratoms effects on health. Of the limited preliminary studies actually done, it seems that kratom induces heart arrhythmias and is cardiotoxic in vitro, and it causes very noticeable liver damage and memory loss/cognitive impairments in rats. Interestingly, in the study that showed that kratom caused liver damage in rats, it said that the rats were completely asymptomatic; they had no symptoms. So I imagine that perhaps a similar thing could be happening in humans; people using kratom could be constantly damaging their liver, yet have no symptoms. In humans doing kratom, their liver is not inflamed and appears normal. Perhaps the powerful anti-inflammatory effects of kratom prevents the liver from inflaming as it would normally do when being damaged, thus making it appear normal in tests when infact it is being constantly damaged.

Interestingly, in asian culture it seems it is very well known that long term kratom use causes darkening of the skin of the face, a very common symptom of liver cirrhosis(A form of liver disease). I haven't really seen any studies showing no damaging effects on the organs or the body, could you refer me to some of the studies you have found?

You are misleading people. The darkening of skin is due to an increase in melanin production. It has nothing to do with the liver. Kratom is similar to melanotan II in it's ability to increase melanin production.

 

I haven't seen any studies that even prove that Kratom has any effect on melanin, much less prove conclusively that the face darkening is caused by it. Could you please refer me to the study you've seen prove this?

 

The study on cardiotoxicity is pretty much only applicable if you have a QT interval issue pre-existing or have another heart condition already... As JohnJuan said the darkening of the skin has not been associated with liver damage. I actually recall the rat study that showed MINOR liver damage was using 2 grams of pure mitragynine per kilogram. That would be like a human taking over a kilo of leaf at once. The burden of proof is on those tru=ying to say it is dangerous, not on those saying it has not been proven dangerous, but like I said that rat study actually appeared to be a great argument for it's safety in my opinion. Imagine what would happen to a rat if you gave it 2 grams of caffiene per kilogram, or 2 grams of tylenol, aspirin, etc. Hint: They would be dead

Do you have any evidence to prove kratom is not cardiotoxic? If so, could you please refer me to the study?

 

Actually the burden of proof falls on you to prove kratom is not damaging. The first rule of medicine is “Do no harm”. Whats the point of using medicine to cure something if it’s causing more harm than the original illness? You have no studies on kratom proving it is safe, not one. Infact all the studies are saying the exact opposite; it’s harmful. Yet you still state unsubstantiated rumours as absolute fact.

 

You don't recall the study correctly, the study stated that all rats taking Kratom extract(which is something like 67% mitragynine if I remember correctly, not pure mitragynine) at all dosage levels(100mg/kg, 200mg/kg, 500mg/kg and 1000mg/kg) sustained acute liver damage with the group taking the highest dose(1000mg/kg) sustaining severe liver damage. All groups had no symptoms, and had healthy behaviour no matter how badly their liver was suffering. I imagine this is probably due to the analgesic and antiinflammatory effects of kratom, suppressing any and all pain signals from the body, making the rats feel fine while their liver was being severely damaged.

One thing to remember is that rat dosages are not equal to human dosages, you need to take into account the body surface area of both. To properly convert rat to human dosages, you need to multiply the rat dosage(in this example, 100kg/mg) by the Km factor for mice(3), then divide by the Km factor for humans(37). So (100*3)/37 = 8.2kg/mg. So assuming that a human liver responds to kratom in the same fashion as a rat liver(Which is highly likely), we can assume that a dose of 8.2mg/kg of Kratom extract(Which is standardized to about 67% mitragynine) causes acute liver damage in humans.

Assuming that regular kratom leaves contain about 1% mitragynine, half a gram of Kratom leaves causes minor liver damage in humans(8.2 * 67 = 550mg). The lowest dose of kratom leaves people recommend taking is 2 grams, 4 times the dose that caused minor liver damage in rats. 5 Grams of kratom leaves, which is considered a “medium” dose, is equivalent to the highest dose the rats took, the one that caused severe liver damage.

Edited by β-Endorphin, 27 February 2015 - 06:52 PM.

[β-Endorphin]

^Made a huge mistake in calculations above. 8.2mg/kg of 67% Mitragynine extract(For a 75 kg human) = 412 mg of pure Mitragynine, equal to about 40 grams of leaves. I apologize for misleading about the doses, I made the wrong calculations. Unfortunately I can't edit the above post, so please ignore the part about the rat study. Everything else I stated was correct, however.

[Tree93]

I wasn't trying to prove it's beneficial. I was just saying there's no substantiated reason to believe that it is dangerous, at least more dangerous than most otc supplements and meds, and therefore should not be seen as a dangerous substance. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. And only some very strong kratom is 1% mitragynine. There are many strains that contain less than 12% mitragynine out of the total alkaloids, which usually range between .05-2% of the total plant makeup. Also, were these extracts full-spectrum? I know anecdotal evidence is flimsy but I've spoken to at least a dozen users who have used 20g+ daily for 7-12 years and their liver tests come back in tip top condition, and in many cases better results than before they began using kratom (in the kratom community I am a part of, there is a tendency for positive lifestyle changes to be made when using kratom, such as better excersize, eating habits, and cutting out other substances like alcohol or prescription opiates, which might be partially responsible for the amazing results). So if the individual doesn't notice damage, the doctors don't see the damage, than is there actually measurable damage? I have only read one anecdotal report of liver issues coming into play, and it was after only a few weeks of use, probably a missing liver enzyme or something. As for the cardiotoxicity study, it specifically says that it could be harmful to people with pre-existing heart issues, and not just anyone. Yes this is important, but does not mean that it is toxic to anyone who takes it.

Edited by Tree93, 27 February 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[Tree93]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23422336is this the study your talking about? where did you get 67% mitragynine? it looks like pure mitragynine to me based on the text.

[Al Capacino]

Before I took kratom I had slightly elevated liver results come back. I hardly drink alcohol and only drugs I've taken are prescription antidepressants. At that time I was on venlafaxine. I quit antidepressants and started to self medicate with kratom, Yerba mate, mixing racetams, nsi 189, phenibut and heaps of other stuff including vitamins, fish oil etc. I had another liver check up and it was fine again.
Must say I've struggled with my mental health though and need to try the orthodox approach with psychiatrist again!

Point being I would imagine prescription pills, alcohol etc are much worse on liver than kratom. And also we don't really need to tell from studies whether kratom is overly toxic on liver or anything else...it is used widespread in some parts of the world and there doesn't seem to be any great evidence of people dying in great numbers from kratom use

[johnjuanb1]

Before I took kratom I had slightly elevated liver results come back. I hardly drink alcohol and only drugs I've taken are prescription antidepressants. At that time I was on venlafaxine. I quit antidepressants and started to self medicate with kratom, Yerba mate, mixing racetams, nsi 189, phenibut and heaps of other stuff including vitamins, fish oil etc. I had another liver check up and it was fine again.
Must say I've struggled with my mental health though and need to try the orthodox approach with psychiatrist again!

Point being I would imagine prescription pills, alcohol etc are much worse on liver than kratom. And also we don't really need to tell from studies whether kratom is overly toxic on liver or anything else...it is used widespread in some parts of the world and there doesn't seem to be any great evidence of people dying in great numbers from kratom use

How would you recommend incorporating phenibut into a kratom protocol?
I have yet to try phenibut.
I have heard it is perfect for a Friday night when you can sleep in the next morning.

Every drug, supplement, etc., is going to have rare cases of ill effects.
For myself, the benefits are worth the risk. Prior to kratom I had no hope for the future. I would go to bed every night and hope I wouldn't wake up in the morning. This was persistent. I tried antidepressants but they left me numb to life and also gave me repetitive thoughts of suicide. Kratom is not a perfect drug. I do get minor withdrawal symptoms due to the fact I use it daily in high doses.
Even so, I have had no visible signs of liver issues, or any other health issue. One miraculous thing, which was a very important aspect in me using kratom, is the antiviral properties it contains. Last year I got the flu 5 times in 6 months. I had a weakened immune system from 20 years of high dose anabolic steroid use. Since starting kratom last August I haven't had one single cold which amazes me. I work around sick people everyday in close quarters.

[β-Endorphin]

I wasn't trying to prove it's beneficial. I was just saying there's no substantiated reason to believe that it is dangerous, at least more dangerous than most otc supplements and meds, and therefore should not be seen as a dangerous substance. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. And only some very strong kratom is 1% mitragynine. There are many strains that contain less than 12% mitragynine out of the total alkaloids, which usually range between .05-2% of the total plant makeup. Also, were these extracts full-spectrum? I know anecdotal evidence is flimsy but I've spoken to at least a dozen users who have used 20g+ daily for 7-12 years and their liver tests come back in tip top condition, and in many cases better results than before they began using kratom (in the kratom community I am a part of, there is a tendency for positive lifestyle changes to be made when using kratom, such as better excersize, eating habits, and cutting out other substances like alcohol or prescription opiates, which might be partially responsible for the amazing results). So if the individual doesn't notice damage, the doctors don't see the damage, than is there actually measurable damage? I have only read one anecdotal report of liver issues coming into play, and it was after only a few weeks of use, probably a missing liver enzyme or something. As for the cardiotoxicity study, it specifically says that it could be harmful to people with pre-existing heart issues, and not just anyone. Yes this is important, but does not mean that it is toxic to anyone who takes it.

From what I understood, the in vitro cardiotoxic study stated that MS extract may potentiate torsade de pointes(a fatal heart condition), but if you read the study, it states in the results that MS extract induced heart arrhythmia in (presumably) healthy heart cells. Then again this is an in vitro study, it's supposed to be a starting point to research, not an actual conclusive study.

 

I understand what you stated about "the burden of proof" argument, the thing i'm concerned about is that people seem to think that if something isn't proven dangerous, it's magically safe and healthy by default. I don't disagree that Kratom is probably more effective than current antidepressants in treating depression, and i'm not arguing that it might be safer than current prescription medications or even some OTC medications. But we simply don't know.

 

While its easy for some to hide behind the argument that its safe because its "been used for thousands of years in asian culture". Kratom may very well be carcinogenic and extremely harmful, but nobody in ancient times would have noticed because cancer and internal organ damage can move very slowly. For example, if a lifelong kratom chewer dies from liver failure at the age of 40, how would anybody know kratom had anything to do with it? For all they know, it was karma for something. Maybe his time just came. Not a single person at the time would even think that kratom had anything to do with his health, much less caused his death.

 

To give a comparison, tobacco was smoked for over 5000 years in north america by the native americans. They claimed it to be a gift from the creator, that it cured everything, had no downsides to use and that it increased longevity. Everybody smoked it, even children. Nobody ever thought it was harmful or that it killed anybody because 1. it was very hard to overdose and 2. The internal organ damage happened so slowly that nobody could have possibly noticed any harm.

 

What Jonhjuanb1 said in the thread reminds me of what a british sailor might say after returning from america with a boat load of tobacco, "Don't worry guys, Tobacco's safe, it's a natural medicine the native americans have been using for thousands of years. If it was harmful the natives would be dropping like flies, but they obviously aren't, so tobacco must be safe and healthy for the body"

 

When it comes to medical science, anecdotal evidence is absolutely worthless. This is because so many things can sway the results; the placebo effect, human biases, 1000s of other environmental factors etc. Not to mention that euphoric substances, especially opiates, have a tendency of swaying peoples opinion in favor of the substance, making them much more likely to exaggerate the positive effects of the drug and downplay the negative effects/health issues. This makes an unbiased logical discussion more difficult to achieve.

Edited by β-Endorphin, 28 February 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[johnjuanb1]

B-Endorphin....it sounds like kratom isn't for you. I don't need a study to tell me whether or not kratom has improved my life. Haha
I'm just glad my depression and anxiety have subsided. That's enough for me.

[β-Endorphin]

B-Endorphin....it sounds like kratom isn't for you. I don't need a study to tell me whether or not kratom has improved my life. Haha
I'm just glad my depression and anxiety have subsided. That's enough for me.

I understand that kratom is very effective for depression and anxiety. My main concern is that of safety. After all, the most effective substances are usually the most dangerous/harmful. As it currently stands, kratom is a herb to use at your own risk. We have no idea how it affects the body. It could be curing your anxiety now but give you liver cancer and parkinson's disease when you're older. Or it could do nothing. Their is no way to know. Anecdotal reports and "1000s of years of use" are absolutely worthless when it comes to safety. The issue I have is when people portray as a miracle herb that is safe and harmless, when in reality it is untested, thus assumed to be dangerous.

 

I wasn't arguing it wasn't highly effective. I'm glad you got relief of symptoms, anxiety and depression really sucks. Enjoy your newfound health

[johnjuanb1]

There is definitely no free lunch in life; no perfect drug. Those who use everything in moderation are most likely going to be okay. I have never done anything in moderation. I guess I don't fear liver damage because I have been on high dose anabolic steriods for 20 years and my liver values always come out in the top range of normal. I'm probably lucky genetically in that regard.

[nowayout]

For myself, the benefits are worth the risk. Prior to kratom I had no hope for the future. I would go to bed every night and hope I wouldn't wake up in the morning. This was persistent. I tried antidepressants but they left me numb to life and also gave me repetitive thoughts of suicide. Kratom is not a perfect drug. I do get minor withdrawal symptoms due to the fact I use it daily in high doses.
...

Since starting kratom last August I haven't had one single cold which amazes me. I work around sick people everyday in close quarters.

 

 

It is nothing new that opiates provide immediate relief for anxiety and depression.  There is nothing better.  They are far superior to commercial antidepressants in this respect. 

 

However, you have just been using a few months.  They don't keep working in the long run.  In fact they almost always leaves the user worse off.  I speak from experience. 

 

[johnjuanb1]

For myself, the benefits are worth the risk. Prior to kratom I had no hope for the future. I would go to bed every night and hope I wouldn't wake up in the morning. This was persistent. I tried antidepressants but they left me numb to life and also gave me repetitive thoughts of suicide. Kratom is not a perfect drug. I do get minor withdrawal symptoms due to the fact I use it daily in high doses.
...
Since starting kratom last August I haven't had one single cold which amazes me. I work around sick people everyday in close quarters.

It is nothing new that opiates provide immediate relief for anxiety and depression. There is nothing better. They are far superior to commercial antidepressants in this respect.

However, you have just been using a few months. They don't keep working in the long run. In fact they almost always leaves the user worse off. I speak from experience.

I too have that prior experience with addiction to nubain, temgesic, and Oxycotin. But not having those for a few hours had me crawling out of my skin. Kratom, if I miss it, makes me lethargic. There are withdrawals but it's nothing like those other drugs.

[Galaxyshock]

 

Basically you're taking a painkiller to ignore the warning signs your body is giving you of it breaking down and starvating to death.

You must be referring to Malaysian farmers who use kratom in order to work long days without taking in much in the way of nutrition?
Everyone I know that uses kratom here in the USA eats healthy. Kratom is loaded with antioxidants so it is the best way to increase your nutritive value if you are into health and longevity. Kratom is a supplement, and not meant to be substituted for food. I haven't had a cold since starting kratom back in August. It definitely bolsters your immune system.
For chronic pain suffered, kratom is a much safer, non toxic alternative to NSAIDs, prescription opiates, etc., with a much lower abuse potential. If abused, kratom is no where near as harsh as opiates in terms of withdrawal.

 

 

No, I'm referring to your mention of having several injuries and being at 5% body fat yet feeling amazing - you're not supposed to "feel amazing" when your body is damaged and severely lacking nutrition, being only few body fat percentage points away from death.

[johnjuanb1]

Basically you're taking a painkiller to ignore the warning signs your body is giving you of it breaking down and starvating to death.

You must be referring to Malaysian farmers who use kratom in order to work long days without taking in much in the way of nutrition?
Everyone I know that uses kratom here in the USA eats healthy. Kratom is loaded with antioxidants so it is the best way to increase your nutritive value if you are into health and longevity. Kratom is a supplement, and not meant to be substituted for food. I haven't had a cold since starting kratom back in August. It definitely bolsters your immune system.
For chronic pain suffered, kratom is a much safer, non toxic alternative to NSAIDs, prescription opiates, etc., with a much lower abuse potential. If abused, kratom is no where near as harsh as opiates in terms of withdrawal.

No, I'm referring to your mention of having several injuries and being at 5% body fat yet feeling amazing - you're not supposed to "feel amazing" when your body is damaged and severely lacking nutrition, being only few body fat percentage points away from death.

I'm not lacking nutrition though. I consume 4 food meals and 3 protein shakes per day. My diet consists of extra lean ground turkey breast, chicken breast, London broil, steamed brown rice, multigrain organic bread, whole eggs, fat free cheese, mixed nuts, quinoa, greens powder, sulphur powder, whey protein, oats, and lots of water. I consume approximately 4,000 calories per day. I got my body fat down by eating clean and lifting weights 2-3 hours per day for the past 28 years consistently. I use a lot of HGH secretagogues and anabolic hormones as well.

[johnjuanb1]

Kratom Energy...
The reason kratom gives energy is because it has alkyloids in it that are adrenergic.

Adrenergic means "working on adrenaline (epinephrine) or noradrenaline ( norepinephrine)".
The following kratom alkyloid, Mitragynine, makes up roughly 66% of the alkyloid content in kratom and it is adrenergic.

[Nate-2004]

I was hoping this page would contain a legitimate discussion on kratom with links to research but, nothing. 

 

There's nothing on Examine either. Apparently when Googling there's very little research out there right now and yet the DEA is trying to ban it, go figure. Ban anything you don't understand I guess.

 

I tried it last night hoping it would positively affect my essential tremor problem, but alas, no effect.

[normalizing]

nate, which type of kratom did you try as they are several types which work differently. ive noticed most are not as strong, but can be sedating in moderate amounts while others can be quite potent and stimulating in small to moderate amounts with large amounts being extremely stimulative

[Nate-2004]

nate, which type of kratom did you try as they are several types which work differently. ive noticed most are not as strong, but can be sedating in moderate amounts while others can be quite potent and stimulating in small to moderate amounts with large amounts being extremely stimulative

 

I have no idea which one I tried but I ordered the red vein based on the description.

[Mike C]

My 87 year old mother who is in relatively good health, takes no prescription medicine, is independent and has one helluva mind for 87 uses 1/2 teaspoon of red vein for fibromalagia. She claims its very effective and it lifts her mood. She takes it several times a week

[normalizing]

i havent heard of a person that age taking it. interesting

 

what i know is, maeng da is the most potent stimulant of kratom and im not sure i ever tried red vain if its even similar or not.

[Jiminy Glick]

Any more news on Kratom being cardiotoxic? I have been using it and have felt great. Irregular heartbeats do run in my family though so I'm curious about the studies related to the heart. My views of Kratom are that moderate and fast Kratom are great for school and prove to be better than Adderrall for Adderrall makes you jittery, made my heart race, and you lose your appetite, while on Kratom you are euphoric and focused. Slow Kratom just makes you relaxed and sleepy. 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 13 April 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[UKLAD]

i find kratom just as addictive as phenibut, done 2 kratom tapers in the last 12 months, not saying i dont like it, its just so addictive for me but i did have a 20 year opiate habit 25 years ago

Edited by UKLAD, 13 April 2017 - 07:08 PM.

[normalizing]

kratom is very very bad for the liver. i read few reviews on this and i experienced it myself, twice. i just quit it

[Nate-2004]

People are super inclined to give bad marks on people's posts here.  I don't know what I was "ill informed" about but unless you can provide that information, I suggest you unmark it.

 

Also answering someone's question isn't pointless timewasting.

 

I'm interested in good information and unbiased resources on kratom, well conducted studies in other words, positive or negative. My guess is that there just isn't very much info on it right now. No one is citing much of anything in this thread.  The original poster boasted some pretty wild claims about kratom and while I've heard it may be good for anxiety, there's no controlled studies proving it. Now maybe I'm "ill informed" about that, but Google scholar turns up squat outside of reviews, single case "studies" and anecdotal reports.

 

 

[Jiminy Glick]

I wonder what Rooster Ross would have to say about this. Youtube Rooster Ross. He is an avid Kratom user. 

[jroseland]

Perhaps I would have had some more exciting effects if I had done Kratom at higher dosages.

Usually, with performance enhancers or Nootropics, I try them at a really wide range of dosages, I take higher dosages for the sake of experimentation, however, Kratom is one of the very few things I've consumed that has a body of scientific literature recommending against this - people have actually died of Kratom intoxication (in combination with other drugs) - so I kept the dosages low.

 

Watch: Kratom Review [⭐⭐] A blunt performance enhancer...

[2 Duckets]

There is no evidence to support most of these and it sounds like someone flat out made a couple of them up. Some of them are even laughable; for instance, opioids (including kratom) lower the male sex drive not increase.

Kratom increases my sex drive 5 fold after I take it.

[bladedmind]

I respectfully suggest that anyone contemplating kratom consumption review the contents of the reddit quitting-kratom thread. 

 

https://www.reddit.c...quittingkratom/