207 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

> Aging is the all time killer.

 

Misuse of "killer".

Aging is all time cause of death??

But is it if majority of human race did NOT die of old age????

 

> Why work? Machines can give us everything

 

Hello??  In 2015????  In what country do machines give everyone everything?!!!

Some here-and-now reality please!!!

Is this a science fiction thread???

You got me on the colloquial use of the term "killer."

 

On the second part, you forgot to read the rest, we aren't there yet, but we could be soon, it depends on how well we elect to manage our time, i.e. if we go the immortal route or just keeping running off the cliff like a bunch of lemmings b/c it's the best idea anyone has thought of as we increasingly devaluing life to keep things moving when confronted with the pathologies of the present's deathism.

[shadowhawk]

The topic is if everyone should have access to indefinite lifespan if possible.  Some here want a litmus test based upon belief and a control group dishing out the magic life elixir to a certain approved few.  Such is not a present problem since no elixir exists.

[Rib Jig]

> Should "immortality" really be available for everyone?

 

It is now available ONLY to those who:

a. can afford cryonics services

b. are not denied cryonics services for reasons unrelated to financials

(e.g., suiciders, AFAIK)

 

Those who'd rather ruminate about not now achieving (a)

rather than prioritizing (a) can curse cryonics services

until they're on their death-by-age deathbeds...

 

As to near-immortals parenting 10K years,

that's co-dependency, not parenting, IMO.

For a price, that "parent" will probably be

ordered to buy a robo-human pet-child...

Edited by Rib Jig, 06 October 2015 - 11:20 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Dante said the deepest parts of hell are occupied by those who are frozen.  Does life mean you are conscious?  If you are frozen are the lights out and are you counting on someone turning them back on?  If they could, why should they?  Money?  Why not just take it?

[YOLF]

The topic is if everyone should have access to indefinite lifespan if possible.  Some here want a litmus test based upon belief and a control group dishing out the magic life elixir to a certain approved few.  Such is not a present problem since no elixir exists.

 

The elixir should be free and active in the germline should it be gene therapy. Denying it would be a tyranny, though requiring that people wait painlessly in cryopreservation until room is made for them wouldn't be a bad idea. Doing so might even become a charitable gesture where someone decides to forego the resources that would usually be expended on them in favor of diverting those resources to more growth in the ability of the civilization to sustain greater numbers. The energy usually consumed by them going to power more robots that increase capacity for all or some such a phenomena.

[shadowhawk]

Well this is well thought out.  There are many issues, not the least, what is life which we all talk about as if we know what it is. 

[YOLF]

> Should "immortality" really be available for everyone?

 

It is now available ONLY to those who:

a. can afford cryonics services

b. are not denied cryonics services for reasons unrelated to financials

(e.g., suiciders, AFAIK)

 

Those who'd rather ruminate about not now achieving (a)

rather than prioritizing (a) can curse cryonics services

until they're on their death-by-age deathbeds...

 

As to near-immortals parenting 10K years,

that's co-dependency, not parenting, IMO.

For a price, that "parent" will probably be

ordered to buy a robo-human pet-child...

 

The simple fact of the matter is that cryonics could be much cheaper. Ralph Merkle wrote a proposal that would reduce the cost to the provider to less than $5k when done at scale. In fact, $5k could be the price. But the initial cost of the commitment would cost as much as $350 million and at $5k would require 70k patients paying in advance. 

 

I could definitely see this happening, so far the resistance to this has been that those who've been preserved longer, or who want greater security in their investment would like to have their own LN2 supply so they've got 8 months or more of reserve in the event that something goes horribly wrong with the facility. I don't see why we couldn't have high security "Cadillac" storage built into the facility as an option for the wealthy. This would make everyone happy and may make the less expensive storage space cost even less as the facility's reservoir could be the high security "Cadillac" storage cryostats where their boil off would keep or at least contribute to keeping the rest of the facility cool.

[YOLF]

Well this is well thought out.  There are many issues, not the least, what is life which we all talk about as if we know what it is. 

 

Any way you look at it, more life is more time, more health, and more opportunity for satisfaction. Anything else is secondary to the adventure.

[Ark]

New plan, let's make me the only immortal as a test. In a way everyone would be immortalized in my memory making it worthwhile for me.

[shadowhawk]

OK, your winter coat will not help you.  Do you like it cool or hot. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

People, come into the reality at last.

 

We are living in the 2015 today.

 

The only way to prevent overpopulation in an immortal society, until other options become possible, is the tactics of not producing more children for the immortals, and taking measures for preventing overpopulating fractions in the countries arround the world. Otherwise you are postphoning the overpopulation at the best, not removing the problem.

 

I don't want to adm it, but so far the only attached to the ground poster in this topic is @Rib Jig

His view is that the rich people will prevent us all in this forum from being immortal.

[Ark]

And this

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[Danail Bulgaria]

Don't rely on theories if you have the choice not to do so.

 

Theories have only a chance of being correct. They are not sertain.

[ceridwen]

There is more money to be made in Immortality industries if everyone who wants to eventually becomes immortal
It depends on how cheap the treatments eventually become. Thinking very long term here

[shadowhawk]

People, come into the reality at last.

 

We are living in the 2015 today.

 

The only way to prevent overpopulation in an immortal society, until other options become possible, is the tactics of not producing more children for the immortals, and taking measures for preventing overpopulating fractions in the countries arround the world. Otherwise you are postphoning the overpopulation at the best, not removing the problem.

 

I don't want to adm it, but so far the only attached to the ground poster in this topic is @Rib Jig

His view is that the rich people will prevent us all in this forum from being immortal.

Evidence?

[YOLF]

OK, your winter coat will not help you.  Do you like it cool or hot. 

 

I'll take it either way as I'm not sure which is which... Just let me know which one...

 

Waiting for a reply...

[YOLF]

People, come into the reality at last.

 

We are living in the 2015 today.

 

The only way to prevent overpopulation in an immortal society, until other options become possible, is the tactics of not producing more children for the immortals, and taking measures for preventing overpopulating fractions in the countries arround the world. Otherwise you are postphoning the overpopulation at the best, not removing the problem.

 

I don't want to adm it, but so far the only attached to the ground poster in this topic is @Rib Jig

His view is that the rich people will prevent us all in this forum from being immortal.

So the rich will have it an deny it to the rest of us? There is no postponing over population if reproduction must be licenced and is done only when capacity allows. Step back from thinking in the negative and be an optimist. Ask yourself, what does the future need to look like if we want to be a more ethically advanced civilization where death is voluntary and aging doesn't exist? Don't ask if the future as you expect it to be could allow for it. That's assuming human progress has flatlined. The future will be built by those of the present who strive to shape it and who are successful. You won't be successful if you're not making the world a better place.

 

If their is resistance to the idea of ethically superior agelessness and people are against us, it is because those who are against us are mocking us rather than listening and trying to work with us. It may even be that they've already devalued the lives of the human race and don't want to face their mistakes. Just keep envisioning a greater outcome and more solutions. Don't be distracted by the ideas which are being fed to you, find your own solutions, or find better solutions until you have a vision that would succeed. Those who are against us never present a rational argument, just traps which the young and ignorant fall into easily so they can be proven wrong and either absorbed, or sent off as fools to argue for a lost cause instead of being productive about finding the solution using the method I've suggested.

[YOLF]

And this

This is an inactionable theory. Where are the minds from the alternate realities that came to this reality when their existence in the last one ended? I wouldn't count on this, instead, I'd put your hope and faith in the people who are actually working for a solution.

[YOLF]

There is more money to be made in Immortality industries if everyone who wants to eventually becomes immortal
It depends on how cheap the treatments eventually become. Thinking very long term here

 

There is more money to be made when people are aging and have all sorts of diseases that they will live with throughout their lives. Should we be successful, only those companies offering age reversal technologies such as bioprinting, aging vaccines, and that sort of thing will survive. The rest will have no one to offer their products to and will either start competing aggressively for the market of the remaining diseases not associated with aging, or will start developing human enhancement technologies. Most likely, they will be bought for their technologies and be restructured by Google or they will buy other types of companies and evolve their business with the times to find the new and emerging opportunities that result form ending aging. Lots of safe/beneficial party drugs in as many varieties as alcohol perhaps.

[shadowhawk]

 

OK, your winter coat will not help you.  Do you like it cool or hot. 

 

I'll take it either way as I'm not sure which is which... Just let me know which one...

 

Waiting for a reply...

 

I would guess in reality you like it cool.  Do you think you will be conscious or is it lights out?  I know you will have to only guess but curious.

[YOLF]

In cryosuspension? One would be unconscious as they most likely are when they've stopped breathing for several minutes and are then brought back to life via CPR or some such. If however, one isn't ametabolic while in some other kind of suspension not involving liquid nitrogen temperatures, then there would most likely be consciousness.

[Rib Jig]

> But the initial cost of the commitment would cost as much as $350 million and at $5k would require 70k patients paying in advance.

Only way I can imagine this scenario unfolding is if a predominantly non-religious

socialist country adds state-run cryonics to their existing healthcare & offers an

"opt in" option for $?XXXX? extra one-time payment...?

 

Remote now.  Odds go down with each decade & continuing scientific advances.

It might start being discussed by ?2040? & voted on before 2050????

 

Disappointed to find this on Alcor site today:

 

"Alcor will use its best judgment, considering the amount of funding provided

by the member, to determine the level of care that can be provided."

 

Well, Alcor full body fee in 1982 was $100,000.

Those 1982 dollars = $249,800 2015 dollars.

So to get coverage including today's techniques,

someone paying 1982 fee has to pay $100,000 more = $200,000 total???

If we were to pay $200,000 now & new advances are introduced, this

gives Alcor excuse to require $200,000 more in about 2040!!!!

Even if our 2015 dollars have been invested by Alcor & inflated to $500,000 or whatever...

Kinda greedy, IMO...      

Edited by Rib Jig, 08 October 2015 - 02:15 AM.

[Rib Jig]

His view is that the rich people will prevent us all in this forum from being immortal.

No.

Am not conspiracy theorist blaming:

The scientists.  The services.  The rich.  The system.

And NOT all of us.

Only thing between SOME of us & cryonic preservation

is a LACK of financial discipline & planning.

 

> Don't rely on theories if you have the choice not to do so.

 

     

Did we forget to take our own medicine????

Don't rely on conspiracy theories...

Edited by Rib Jig, 08 October 2015 - 02:29 AM.

[shadowhawk]

The opposite of Death by Government.  Our only hope is the government forcing everyone into it.

 

[Rib Jig]

> Those who are against us...

Against us?

Against cryonics?

Personally, could care less about them.

Don't need to convince them.

Don't need to argue with them.

Unless they start picketing cryonics services.

Or break into cryonic crypts to destroy...

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

....

The only way to prevent overpopulation in an immortal society, until other options become possible, is the tactics of not producing more children for the immortals, and taking measures for preventing overpopulating fractions in the countries arround the world. Otherwise you are postphoning the overpopulation at the best, not removing the problem.

....

Evidence?

 

 

Oh, there are evidences for my claim, ofcourse. 

The evidence is the pure mathematics. Take the link, that @Antonio provided, 

and calculate the growth of the immortal population with r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3192186/

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

People, come into the reality at last.

 

We are living in the 2015 today.

 

The only way to prevent overpopulation in an immortal society, until other options become possible, is the tactics of not producing more children for the immortals, and taking measures for preventing overpopulating fractions in the countries arround the world. Otherwise you are postphoning the overpopulation at the best, not removing the problem.

 

I don't want to adm it, but so far the only attached to the ground poster in this topic is @Rib Jig

His view is that the rich people will prevent us all in this forum from being immortal.

So the rich will have it an deny it to the rest of us? There is no postponing over population if reproduction must be licenced and is done only when capacity allows. Step back from thinking in the negative and be an optimist. Ask yourself, what does the future need to look like if we want to be a more ethically advanced civilization where death is voluntary and aging doesn't exist? Don't ask if the future as you expect it to be could allow for it. That's assuming human progress has flatlined. The future will be built by those of the present who strive to shape it and who are successful. You won't be successful if you're not making the world a better place.

 

If their is resistance to the idea of ethically superior agelessness and people are against us, it is because those who are against us are mocking us rather than listening and trying to work with us. It may even be that they've already devalued the lives of the human race and don't want to face their mistakes. Just keep envisioning a greater outcome and more solutions. Don't be distracted by the ideas which are being fed to you, find your own solutions, or find better solutions until you have a vision that would succeed. Those who are against us never present a rational argument, just traps which the young and ignorant fall into easily so they can be proven wrong and either absorbed, or sent off as fools to argue for a lost cause instead of being productive about finding the solution using the method I've suggested.

 

 

I am not talking about licensing the overpopulation of the immortals. I am talkiing about laws to stop that overpopulation. You, however sound like if you have a better working solution, that can be applied at any moment for the overpopulation problem. Is it so? Share it, if it is so. Otherwise there is no other way unless to admit, that no children for the immortals is the only feasable option, that can be applied NOW at this very moment in order to stop overpopulation for the immortals. 

 

The rich will have the immortality an deny it to the rest of us is how I understood what @Rib Jig wrote. I hope, that this will not be the case. 

If it happens to be the case, then savings will not rescue you, even if you spend 0 dollars for eating and take all your things from the dumbster. 

 

P.S. What frightens me, is that such a thing may already have started. 

For example, I don't believe, that everybody in this forum can affort the same medical care. 

Also recently I watched a movie, which claimed, that a speciphic ship has sailed in a neutral waters. This ship is crammed with the best medical technologies and personnal, including such, that are not officially allowed. The aim of the ship is to provide the best possible anti aging medical treatments, independent from laws and any other restrictions. The costs for being in the ship are not simply high, not even simply hudge. They are astronomical. If thuis rumor gets confirmed, then will the best treatments be allowed only for the extremely rich, will not be a question anymore. 

 

Edited by seivtcho, 08 October 2015 - 05:41 AM.

[shadowhawk]

 

 

....

The only way to prevent overpopulation in an immortal society, until other options become possible, is the tactics of not producing more children for the immortals, and taking measures for preventing overpopulating fractions in the countries arround the world. Otherwise you are postphoning the overpopulation at the best, not removing the problem.

....

Evidence?

 

 

Oh, there are evidences for my claim, ofcourse. 

The evidence is the pure mathematics. Take the link, that @Antonio provided, 

and calculate the growth of the immortal population with r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3192186/

 

Since there are no immortals living today there is no evidence.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The immortality is fictional, but this does not mean, that the solution, that I offer is wrong. When the biological immortality becomes true (I strongly believe, that it is possible, and I believe, that it may happen soon), it will be the only one socially accepted and cappable of being applied solution.

[shadowhawk]

Well I don't want to take away your belief.