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Immortality Through Spiritual Means

immortality life extension spiritual religious

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#1 Sith

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 08:29 PM


Greetings everybody, this is my first proper post on the forum!  :)

 

So I wanted to kick a quick discussion off about Immortality or life extension through spiritual means. Does anyone think it's possible to gain life extension through spiritual means? It has been the centre of many religious philosophies for centuries now. We hear of ancient legends of immortality or at least life extension being gained. Opinions?  

 

(P.S: I'm a man of science, but this is an interesting topic nevertheless)  ;)


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#2 shadowhawk

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 10:14 PM

there are two competing views of human anthropology.  One is we are just material and life is a chemical reaction.  Second,we are a composite being of body (material) and spirit.  The body in this second view is material and is ruled by all the laws of the physical world.  Everything dies that is physical.  The spirit has a different nature and is not subject to the laws of nature.  It does not die..  Many  religions talk of spiritual death but that is used in a special way.  Life is about ones relationship with God.  You live when you are in relationship but die when you are not.



#3 seivtcho

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 12:13 PM

I would concentrate on the biological immortality.

 

The existence and the immortality of the soul, the spirit, or whatever out there is not certain.



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#4 Antonio2014

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 12:52 PM

How childish... It's embarrasing that so many adult people still believe in ghosts, spirits and that, if you really really really wish something, it magically comes true.

 

image.jpg

 

 

 


Edited by Antonio2014, 16 December 2015 - 12:53 PM.

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#5 shadowhawk

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 10:27 PM

As usual no evidence.  The material only crowd are usually like this.  So I said everything only physical dies.  The entire cosmos and everything is dying and the proof is some of the most established laws of nature.  I could go farther but won't unless someone doubts it.  The best we can hope for is Life Extension.  Talk about a fairy tale, materialists will die.  Show me the evidence this is not true.



#6 Antonio2014

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 11:48 PM

It's YOU who must provide evidence. The ordinary can be assumed, the extraordinary must be proved.

 

http://www.qcc.cuny....en-of-Proof.htm

 

Even children are more inteligent than religious people.

 

 


Edited by Antonio2014, 16 December 2015 - 11:53 PM.

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#7 shadowhawk

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 01:34 AM

Of course we are treated with the normal bigotry.  I said everything that is only physical dies.  What evidence do you need?  It is all around you.  Lets start with the second law of thermodynamics.  Everything is heading toward a heat death.  Do you deny that?



#8 shadowhawk

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 01:48 AM

I pointed out two views before the bigots started out there usual name calling.  Are there not at least two views?  Yes but they want proof and deny one.  So who has the burden of proof?  To say there is no God also has its own demands of proof,

 

 

https://chab123.word...-by-paul-copan/

 

 

 

 

 


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#9 eigenber

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 03:24 AM

I would say that the only way a human mortal can attain some sort of life continuation after the dissolution of the biological body is if there is, as some religions say, a 'soul', so to speak. But the soul must be explained. For instance, it must develop according to some rules that don't violate the laws of physics (which aren't necessarily the laws - or all of them - as they are currently understood). The evolution of the soul would have be some sort of counterpart of normal human brain/mind activity. Its composition would also have to be of a substance that is not affected by the usual phenomenon of matter - its dis-intigration, disruption, decay, and so on. Then on top of that, this soul, with it's mind transcripts, memories, and so on, would need to be part of a cosmic system or mechanism whereby it's hooked up to another body that is likewise made of the same nonmaterial, or quasi-material substance. I guess I'm trying to say there can be nothing miraculous or magical about it. It almost has to be built into the way the universe works. As near as I can make out, The Urantia Book has the most 'naturalistic' (if you can call it that) description of the material and mechanism by which a soul is made. I'm not making any claims as to its truth, just saying it's there, in a more sensible way than anywhere else I've found.



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#10 Antonio2014

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 08:14 AM

Of course we are treated with the normal bigotry.  I said everything that is only physical dies.  What evidence do you need?  It is all around you.  Lets start with the second law of thermodynamics.  Everything is heading toward a heat death.  Do you deny that?

You said "As usual no evidence". I thought you were talking about my comment, asking me for evidence of what I said.

 

Anyway, the second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. Living beings aren't closed systems at all. As for the thermodynamical death of the whole Universe, it's too far away to bother me, and anyway it's not clear at all whether the Universe as a whole satisfies the second law along its entire history. After all, the Big Bang is a huge violation of every law of thermodynamics.



#11 Antonio2014

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 08:56 AM

I pointed out two views before the bigots started out there usual name calling.

 

And, of course, you are free of that XD XD XD

 

Are there not at least two views?  Yes but they want proof and deny one.  So who has the burden of proof?

 

I already said it: the ordinary can be assumed, the extraordinary must be proved. It's an old Latin saying and it's at the basis of the onus probandi. It's also clearly explained in the link I posted:

 

 


Why is it that few people seem to have problems with the burden of proof when it comes to the innocence or guilt of a murder suspect, but then cannot apply the same exact logic to more esoteric issues, such as the existence of ghosts, gods, and the like?---Massimo Pigliucci, 2010

 

Most people as young children appear to have a “commonsense” understanding of the burden of proof. When young people hear a claim being made and it is, in their minds and experience, an extraordinary claim being made, quite often the response is one of asking for something to support the claim. The most common retorts are along the line of “Prove it”, “What makes you say that”, “Sow me” or something like “Oh, yeah?”. Somewhere along the way too many humans lose that sense and too often suspend their inclination to accept the principles underlying the “Burden of Proof”.  Going a bit further it is to be noted that not all people care to be considered as being rational or reasonable or willing to use their intellect as best as possible but for any person who cares at all about being rational and using reason then operating with the "Burden of Proof" rule of reason:

 

You cannot claim that "miracles exist unless someone proves that they do not exist." 

You cannot claim that "souls exist unless someone proves that they do not exist." 

You cannot claim that "angels exist unless someone proves that they do not exist." 

You cannot claim that "deities exist unless someone proves that they do not exist." 

 

 

To say there is no God also has its own demands of proof,

 

https://chab123.word...-by-paul-copan/

 

I didn't claim that, but anyway there are lots of proof that the Christiam god doesn't exist. Some few examples:

 

- Earth is not flat.

 

- The Sun doesn't orbit the Earth.

 

- The Bible has tons of contradictions between its different authors.

 

- There was no Exodus. None of the civilizations of the time recorded Israel people's captivity nor exodus.

 

- There was no Roman census in the years of the supposed Jesus's birth. Also, the census of that era didn't mandate that the population must go to their town of birth to be inscribed in the census.

 

- There was no killing of the first born. No official document of the civilizations of the era describes it.

 

- There was no seven plagues. Nor documents nor archeology support that.

 

- Many of the Bible's legends can be traced back to previous mithology of other Mesopotamian religions. For example, the Yahveh of christians, muslims and jews originated from a god of several Canaan cultures, named Ēl (plural Elohim): https://en.wikipedia...wiki/El_(deity)  A good article explaining the origin of Yahveh and its cults: https://translate.go...html&edit-text= (Google's translation).

 

- Heck, there is even experimental evidence that there is no god hearing christians' prayers: http://www.meetup.co...thread/43275682

 


Edited by Antonio2014, 17 December 2015 - 09:01 AM.


#12 seivtcho

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:42 AM

Wait a momet people. The topic name is "Immortality Through Spiritual Means"

 

The guy is not asking if there are spiritual things and an immortal soul. He asks if we can use spiritualism in order to become immortal.

 

Like praying God for He to give biological immortality?

This kind of things.



#13 Antonio2014

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:34 AM

Well, I think that before asking (yourself or others) whether a spiritual thing will give you immortality if you pray to it, you should ask whether that being is real, in the first place. After all, people doesn't discuss whether the tooth faerie or Saruman the White can give them immortality.


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#14 Sith

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 12:44 PM

It's YOU who must provide evidence. The ordinary can be assumed, the extraordinary must be proved.

 

http://www.qcc.cuny....en-of-Proof.htm

 

Even children are more inteligent than religious people.

 

Please refrain from commenting on this thread if all you're going to do is offend people and spark an argument rather than a debate. Hate the philosophy not the philosopher. 


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#15 sthira

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 01:46 PM

Well, I think that before asking (yourself or others) whether a spiritual thing will give you immortality if you pray to it, you should ask whether that being is real, in the first place. After all, people doesn't discuss whether the tooth faerie or Saruman the White can give them immortality.


Yes, it's fun and easy to explain away (the crimes of) religion, and how it remains today a tool used against us.

But "spirituality?" Is there anything different about that?

For example, are attempts to expand glimpses of eternity (via music or art, meditation or prayer, ecstatic dance or sex, mountaintops or whatever fascinating drug you may need to open you to it...) are those glimpses so fun and easy to dismiss? Or have you already stopped trying?

#16 Antonio2014

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 06:43 PM

Please refrain from commenting on this thread if all you're going to do is offend people and spark an argument rather than a debate. Hate the philosophy not the philosopher. 

 

If someone behaves like a child, he/she is childish. It's no offense at all, only a descriptive statement.
 


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#17 Antonio2014

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 06:55 PM

Yes, it's fun and easy to explain away (the crimes of) religion, and how it remains today a tool used against us.


But "spirituality?" Is there anything different about that?

For example, are attempts to expand glimpses of eternity (via music or art, meditation or prayer, ecstatic dance or sex, mountaintops or whatever fascinating drug you may need to open you to it...) are those glimpses so fun and easy to dismiss? Or have you already stopped trying?

 

Huh? Are they the same thing? What does the belief in spirits, ghosts or gods have to do with the feelings of climbing a mountain or hearing music?
 

This is what the first poster said:

 

So I wanted to kick a quick discussion off about Immortality or life extension through spiritual means. Does anyone think it's possible to gain life extension through spiritual means? It has been the centre of many religious philosophies for centuries now. We hear of ancient legends of immortality or at least life extension being gained. Opinions?

 

It's clearly a religious discussion.


Edited by Antonio2014, 17 December 2015 - 07:00 PM.


#18 shadowhawk

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 07:02 PM

 

Of course we are treated with the normal bigotry.  I said everything that is only physical dies.  What evidence do you need?  It is all around you.  Lets start with the second law of thermodynamics.  Everything is heading toward a heat death.  Do you deny that?

You said "As usual no evidence". I thought you were talking about my comment, asking me for evidence of what I said.

 

Anyway, the second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. Living beings aren't closed systems at all. As for the thermodynamical death of the whole Universe, it's too far away to bother me, and anyway it's not clear at all whether the Universe as a whole satisfies the second law along its entire history. After all, the Big Bang is a huge violation of every law of thermodynamics.

 

Everything physical that exists has a cause.  If you take the position we are physical we have a ca use.  We are part of the physical cosmos and at least our physical aspect is ruled by the same rules as the rest of the physical existence.  The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies equally to us.



#19 shadowhawk

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 07:08 PM

 

Yes, it's fun and easy to explain away (the crimes of) religion, and how it remains today a tool used against us.


But "spirituality?" Is there anything different about that?

For example, are attempts to expand glimpses of eternity (via music or art, meditation or prayer, ecstatic dance or sex, mountaintops or whatever fascinating drug you may need to open you to it...) are those glimpses so fun and easy to dismiss? Or have you already stopped trying?

 

Huh? Are they the same thing? What does the belief in spirits, ghosts or gods have to do with the feelings of climbing a mountain or hearing music?
 

This is what the first poster said:

 

So I wanted to kick a quick discussion off about Immortality or life extension through spiritual means. Does anyone think it's possible to gain life extension through spiritual means? It has been the centre of many religious philosophies for centuries now. We hear of ancient legends of immortality or at least life extension being gained. Opinions?

 

It's clearly a religious discussion.

 

Ir is a religious discussion in a religious forum as it relates to Life.  Life is not only a physical issue.



#20 shadowhawk

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 07:17 PM

Is there evidence of a spirit or soul?  Ir won't be the same kind of evidence as we  apply to the physical.  How much does a cubic foot of spirit weigh?  You cannot use a scale.  However there is some evidence of a soul despite ignorance of some with the assumption there is not.  Study this.

 

SOUL Case for the Existence of the Soul - JP Moreland, PhD - YouTube Book Review: A Brief History of the Soul by Stewart Goetz & Charles Taliaferro - Apologetics 315 Do Persons have Souls? (Richard Swinburne) - YouTube Neuroscience and the Soul - Full Interview with J.P. Moreland - YouTube Evidence for the Existence of the Soul - JP Moreland, PhD - YouTube What Is The Soul and Is It Real? | Biola University Center for Christian Thought Neuroscience and the Soul (2012-2013) | Biola University Center for Christian Thought Has Science Disproven the Soul? - YouTube ▶ Challenge Response: There Is No Soul - YouTube ▶ Does the Soul Exist? - Interview with J. P. Moreland, PhD - YouTube ▶ Evidence for the Existence of the Soul - JP Moreland, PhD - YouTube ▶ The Case for the Soul - YouTube The Case for the Soul (Near-Death Experiences) - YouTube The Case for the Soul: Refuting Physicalist Objections - YouTube The Case for the Soul: Quantum Biology - YouTube The Case for the Soul (Near-Death Experiences) - YouTube

#21 sthira

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 08:16 PM

How childish... It's embarrasing that so many adult people still believe in ghosts, spirits and that, if you really really really wish something, it magically comes true.

image.jpg


I think that if this is as far as your thinking about transcendence extends -- and I'm not saying it is -- then you may be missing out on a big part of what it means to be a human being. Have you considered the possibility that more may exist beyond what you're now able to feel and think? How about smoking a joint? Ever considered starting a journey from there (eg, whatever it takes to give the scientism a brief vacation?)
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#22 Multivitz

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:03 PM

The truth about heat (thermodynamics) is that the scientist don't really know what it is, especially when the fact of transmutation reacting in organic systems. Things ain't as clear cut as we are lead to think, trust me they really ain't.
Most people perceive the body as blood, nerves, lymph, bones. The organs and glands are there doing enzyme, hormone, storing, filtering, etc. But there is another, the photonic channels and the photon filaments. With the realisation of this (photonic body system) working with Transmutation it's easy to see how an immature developed mind/body has sensory inputs that are incomplete with regards of the (immature mind) environmental interaction.
You could have read a book on a transcendental, then try the books instructions only to find your experiences will not be the same as the authors. My photonic channels needed enough electrolyte and vitamin D3 to enable me to undertake Chi exercises, that makes spiritual experiences possible (real for some). And it is real to the observer for sure.
So real that some get involved with others and enbark on religious activities (or what ever they decide to do).
The basics(of most religions) are pretty much the same, it's a shame the leaders have allowed their people to decide to use a dialect to sway (persuade) others to go to war (for whatever reasons).
The fabric of space supports mind through mechanisms, that are understood by religions (some restrict their religious beliefs for various reasons), and these mechanisms are noticed as we experience life. Experiences like gravity, temperature, feelings, breathing are scrutinised. There are plenty of these experiences that show up in science and when you apply the evidence of science the finer points of nature can be realised, allowing improvements, by decisions based on logic analysis being observed. The observations are based on the current understanding one has.
Plundering, educating, coercion, scaring, campaigns are deemed necessary by some. Some disagree strictly. Using freedom as a decision compass, is debatable, the logic is clear for some, twisted for others, and mixed results are chosen for reasons.
Most of our modern, ancient, imagined, society (community, culture, tribe, practices) are ENGINEERED by the ones involved. Knowing why is a job of an Anthropologist.....agreed? What results of their knowing they find depends alot on how whole thier understanding is to begin with. Holy cow Bat Man, terrible I know!
Hugging a tree is fantastic, if you just happen to be able to experience it like that, but people are somewhat stunted in having noticable results with a hug on a tree. It is an analogy that reflexs many aspects of life across borders of beliefs, not including differences of historical psychological baggage. We are all created with the same faculties (senses potential), ones who think they are different from the norm are now showing to be quite psychopathic in the thinking they use for justification of actions. The media is showing us this, the same media that Tesla had in his time. Has anyone reading this read transcripts of his interviews? They make intresting reading, he was hardly a quack. How after reading could some say he was a quack, another example of perspective, and to insult such a man just shows psychopathy, which in this case is immature disrespect.
Science overlaps life, sciences tries to be useful in our life engineering, the funding of science is controlled with little regard to freedom. Or is all this our impatience motivating us into frustration about a very large complex social(tribe)/industrial(engineered) that is ssslllloooow to improve and allowing some to take advantage and some to not be allowed to share?
Don't play the blame game.

Herbs have thier place. I'm glad something works as intended!

Edited by Multivitz, 17 December 2015 - 09:39 PM.


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#23 seivtcho

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:20 PM

@Sith , you wrote: "We hear of ancient legends of immortality or at least life extension being gained. Opinions?"

 

There is a Russian folclore character, named Kostchei. As far as I know the story, he has become immortal, because he has found "the secret of the bones".

While the bones are mainly made from minerals, they also contain the stem cells of the bone marrow. So, Kostchei may have found the secret of the bone marrow stem cells. Eventually can be speculated, that he has found something emperical, that allowes the stem cells from the bone marrow to rejuvenate periodically the body.



#24 Multivitz

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:47 PM

Big bones contain immune product manufacturing organs. They exhibit piezo electric properties that excite the surrounding soft tissues. Part of the photonic system, part of a complex system of balance, effecting personal performance.
Have a walk, come back refreshed......we can't quantify it. But dietry choices are shown to effect how far we can walk?
Stem cells are made all the time, Silver has something to do with getting them made by the body. Getting a Stem cell to take on a roll in the body is a complex subject, taking on an understanding of it and including the bodies photonic system would, in my view, help scientist. Some no doubt are. Can we notice thier results in the media?

Edited by Multivitz, 17 December 2015 - 09:59 PM.


#25 shadowhawk

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:00 PM

The truth about heat (thermodynamics) is that the scientist don't really know what it is, especially when the fact of transmutation reacting in organic systems. Things ain't as clear cut as we are lead to think, trust me they really ain't.
Most people perceive the body as blood, nerves, lymph, bones. The organs and glands are there doing enzyme, hormone, storing, filtering, etc. But there is another, the photonic channels and the photon filaments. With the realisation of this (photonic body system) working with Transmutation it's easy to see how an immature developed mind/body has sensory inputs that are incomplete with regards of the (immature mind) environmental interaction.
You could have read a book on a transcendental, then try the books instructions only to find your experiences will not be the same as the authors. My photonic channels needed enough electrolyte and vitamin D3 to enable me to undertake Chi exercises, that makes spiritual experiences possible (real for some). And it is real to the observer for sure.
So real that some get involved with others and enbark on religious activities (or what ever they decide to do).
The basics(of most religions) are pretty much the same, it's a shame the leaders have allowed their people to decide to use a dialect to sway (persuade) others to go to war (for whatever reasons).
The fabric of space supports mind through mechanisms, that are understood by religions (some restrict their religious beliefs for various reasons), and these mechanisms are noticed as we experience life. Experiences like gravity, temperature, feelings, breathing are scrutinised. There are plenty of these experiences that show up in science and when you apply the evidence of science the finer points of nature can be realised, allowing improvements, by decisions based on logic analysis being observed. The observations are based on the current understanding one has.
Plundering, educating, coercion, scaring, campaigns are deemed necessary by some. Some disagree strictly. Using freedom as a decision compass, is debatable, the logic is clear for some, twisted for others, and mixed results are chosen for reasons.
Most of our modern, ancient, imagined, society (community, culture, tribe, practices) are ENGINEERED by the ones involved. Knowing why is a job of an Anthropologist.....agreed? What results of their knowing they find depends alot on how whole thier understanding is to begin with. Holy cow Bat Man, terrible I know!
Hugging a tree is fantastic, if you just happen to be able to experience it like that, but people are somewhat stunted in having noticable results with a hug on a tree. It is an analogy that reflexs many aspects of life across borders of beliefs, not including differences of historical psychological baggage. We are all created with the same faculties (senses potential), ones who think they are different from the norm are now showing to be quite psychopathic in the thinking they use for justification of actions. The media is showing us this, the same media that Tesla had in his time. Has anyone reading this read transcripts of his interviews? They make intresting reading, he was hardly a quack. How after reading could some say he was a quack, another example of perspective, and to insult such a man just shows psychopathy, which in this case is immature disrespect.
Science overlaps life, sciences tries to be useful in our life engineering, the funding of science is controlled with little regard to freedom. Or is all this our impatience motivating us into frustration about a very large complex social(tribe)/industrial(engineered) that is ssslllloooow to improve and allowing some to take advantage and some to not be allowed to share?
Don't play the blame game.

Herbs have thier place. I'm glad something works as intended!

 

OK
 



#26 shadowhawk

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:03 PM

@Sith , you wrote: "We hear of ancient legends of immortality or at least life extension being gained. Opinions?"

 

There is a Russian folclore character, named Kostchei. As far as I know the story, he has become immortal, because he has found "the secret of the bones".

While the bones are mainly made from minerals, they also contain the stem cells of the bone marrow. So, Kostchei may have found the secret of the bone marrow stem cells. Eventually can be speculated, that he has found something emperical, that allowes the stem cells from the bone marrow to rejuvenate periodically the body.

cite some sources so we can check them out.



#27 Multivitz

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:20 PM

@Antonio Just experiencing DMT will give them a personal idea of the transcendental experience. If they employed the notion of meeting Peter Pan at the start of the DMT session they may yet met him. I would like to met Tinkerbell(I would have to rescale!), but I'm happily married lol
I'd find myself permanently rescaled if I did!!!

But would Peter Pan be an, 'Archon in disguise'?
Don't anyone try to answer it! Lol

Edited by Multivitz, 17 December 2015 - 10:41 PM.


#28 Multivitz

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:32 PM

@seivtcho. I just read about Kostchei and it seems he had a rather exaggerated power that the Jainist nuns had, in the case that was recorded in press and witnessed by many, when they were attacked by rioters. Forgive me, I can't remember the details.
I need to dig this one out.

#29 Antonio2014

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:59 PM

Everything physical that exists has a cause.  If you take the position we are physical we have a ca use.  We are part of the physical cosmos and at least our physical aspect is ruled by the same rules as the rest of the physical existence.  The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies equally to us.

 

image.jpg

 

Better go play with your rosary. Physics is not for you.


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#30 Multivitz

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 11:06 PM

I love Rupert Sheldrake, he's a champion in my books.
As for the anthropologist who is scientifically stricken, they can't help it, I know where they are comming from, I spent 25 years there.
If there was a label for an illness of cognitive dissonance I would be the infector and possibly the cure? Oh wait a minute, illness is a product of the environment, I see it about alot this coggnitive dissonance. I'llness appears into a system, it's bad when immunity methods are unadapted! Health is immunity, so what does that say about someone who gets uncontrollably drained ,of reason for composure, are they unhealthy?
In some ways, I'd say yes, everyone is judged on thier environment.





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