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Stuck thought syndrome (ocd'ish)Advice needed on treatment and support from supplements

ocdpoop-outsupplements anxiety intrusion supplements nootropics phobia

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#1 Catwoman

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 01:36 PM


My mental health problem in one sentence: There's one thought (or two words) on my mind which keep bouncing back and it's bugging me for years now.

I've seen a few therapists over the years. Most of them said I have OCD and the ones who didn't mention this said that I am obsessed with getting rid of that one thought.
I can focus on something for a whole day, but my thought processes will be intruded, at the moment quite often.

Warning: long story!
As you can read in my intro topic I have thanatofobia (fear of death or dying). This was expressed in panic attacks before bedtime. I have a hard time accepting the fact that some day I will die and disappear into well...nowhere...in my opinion anyway. Just the thought of not existing frightens me. I know...I wasn't 'there' before I was born. I tried believing other outcomes like reincarnation or other after-life. I've read about near death experiences ( ‘Consciousness beyond Life. The Science of the Near-Death Experience‘ by Pim van Lommel for example), articles from Ian Stevenson, new age books, etc. 
I kept having the panic attacks, so eventually I gave up. It is something I struggle with from time to time. It's hard for me...knowing that some day it will happen. I'm trying to deal with it and not get too gloomy about it.
When my time comes I just hope I'm OK with 'me' not being there. I'm just trying to think a little more lightly about it.

OK, when did the OCD'ish thinking started? I was 20 (I'm 32 now). I was really tired from working round the clock for months and really stressed. My vacation was just canceled.
Out of nowhere I started thinking about death. As always, the panic faded away after 10 minutes ( I tell myself: "dying is so far away, you have years ahead of you and maybe there is an afterlife so don't worry now" which calms me down and then I go looking for some distraction). But that day the thought (just the word 'death') wouldn't go away, like it was stuck. I wasn't having new panic attacks but I was worried why it kept popping up in my head and this made me anxious. I had no idea what was going on and of course I tried to push it away....I found it really bizarre and was afraid to tell any one about it.

In the following months I saw a hypnotherapist, because I thought it might be a subconscious problem. After 10 sessions I gave up. I was too focused on getting rid of it anyway. 
I mean, when the thought isn't there so much it means that I'm improving and then it won't bug me so much. But when it keeps coming back like a boomerang (like every 10 seconds) it begins to irritate me.

Did it get better? There were periods ( a week, sometimes a few) when the thought wasn't there as much. I had important stuff to do at work and I went on a wonderful vacation with lots of sunshine and physical exercise (hiking). Each day it got better and on my last day I wasn't having the thought anymore.
Of course it came back. I saw an acupuncturist who started me on Chinese herbs and advised me on diet. I don't think she had much experience with OCD, but I believe the treatment was calming me. I wasn't as depressed as in the first few months. I watched if there were any patterns, when it got worse or when it was actually bugging me the most. I researched alternative remedies but it was always focused on the symptom. 

What I describe above is 'Pre-SSRI'
After 4 years of going up and down while my life wasn't actually really bad or stressful I went to see a recommended CBT-psychiatrist. He advised an SSRI, so I researched this and asked my general doctor for Luvox (didn't know anything about the sigma1 receptors at that time, I just chose it because it wasn't known for side effects like weight gain and drop of libido). 
I saw this therapist every week but I didn't feel like it lessened the frequency of the intrusion.
After 4,5 weeks the Luvox started working. The thought reduced considerably

The mornings got better. 'Death' wasn't the first thing on my mind. I had mild side effects: restless legs, very vivid dreams and on higher doses (300 mg) I would gnash my teeth. 
I was wondering why I waited so long with this drug: I stabilized and felt better and better.

After a year or something on Luvox I tapered it over a few months from 300 tot 50 mg and then just stopped. I felt good and the obsessive thought stayed away. My psychotherapist had send me on my way with a book about Acceptance & Commitment Therapy. ACT should fit me, because I just needed to learn to let the intrusion pass by without giving it any thought. I gave it a good try but Luvox helped me a lot.
I lead a peaceful life: I worked normal hours, had friends and family nearby, a good relationship, a new home...nothing to worry about.

2010: why did I relapse? No idea. One morning a few months after I was fully withdrawn it popped into my mind again. This worried me and a few days later I was still having the thought in my head every minute. 
I started Luvox again. After 9 weeks on a high dose nothing changed.
My general doctor switched me to Lexapro. 10 mg, I was feeling the effect after a few weeks. Great! A few months later I had a personal setback and the Lexapro was increased to 20 mg.

From 2012 to april 2016 I slowly tapered the Lexapro from 20 mg to 5 mg. Then I took a 5 mg pill every other day. I've read on a (Dutch) forum that this was a good way to withdraw from it, which seemed like an excellent idea just a few months ago: I wasn't having the intrusive thought for a few years already, so it looked like I was healed and I wasn't needing this drug anymore.

The plan backfired....the thought 'death' popped up in my head one evening when I was still on Lexapro. When I noticed that it would not drift away like all the other (negative or positive) thoughts in my head I became worried again. Consulted a general doctor who advised me to increase my dose of Lexapro. 
I was on 15 mg for 4 or 5 weeks, but the thought kept popping up.  My new family doctor advised me to see a therapist and taper from the Lexapro. I was initially interested in switching to Zoloft, but IF it would work it could also mean that it would poop-out again. I realized I had more work to do, so I signed up for a mindfulness meditation training and started working with the psychologist. 

What does she say during therapy: "Stop worrying about it", "thoughts come and go", "the more attention you give it, the more it will stay on your mind", "you can have the thought; what matters is how you react to it", "if you stop react to it in a negative way, it will disappear eventually", "thoughts will bounce back like a boomerang it you want to get rid of them" and "you can't get rid of the thought, it will only make it worse".
RIGHT! It's not like I didn't know this already and I AM trying. Tapering the Lexapro isn't helping either, but staying on it doesn't make sense to me either. I had strong neuro-emotions (like suicidal thoughts) from tapering and felt really depressed. It got better fortunately. I'm on 2,5mg for about two weeks now.

The fact is...I'm feeling OK and happy when the thought isn't intruding. It just bugs me when I'm having a conversation with some one, meditate (then it's especially annoying) when I'm reading a book or working behind my computer. Other thoughts, even negative ones, will come and go. I notice them and they just drift away without me doing anything special. 

You might wonder: "don't you have any compulsions?"
Uhm....no, not that I know of. I am a very big fan of googling though. Researching my problem and all the possible solutions has become obsessive the last few months. It isn't normal for the human brain to get stuck on a word or concept, right? It calms me down a bit. 

The bottom line (I'll applaud for anyone who has read the whole story): what can I do and/or take/eat more for support and treating this? I would be quite satisfied if the thought would pop up a few times a day and me not reacting all too worried.

What I don't feel generally during the day: panic, anxiousness
The thought is quite 'empty' actually. It's not like I'm seeing images of coffins, grieving people or graveyards. What I do feel every time: annoyance when it pops up. Like: "Grrr, you again?" or sadness/disappointment.
I don't feel depressed in general and I've never been a dark moody one. I feel like I am a highly sensitive person though, which throws me off balance once in a while.
 
About food and supplements I take: omega-3 fish oil (2 capsules a day with food, per capsule 1000 mg: 360 mg EPA  and 240 mg DHA), I take these for 6 weeks now. Last week I started with a B-complex and Vit D3.
I also took magnesium biglycinate with taurine for a month and a cup of wheat grass in the morning (waiting for a new supply at the moment). I have no idea if the vitamins and oils are effective on my intrusion, but my mood is quite stable. 
I eat just about everything: oatmeal in the morning with almond milk, one cup of coffee, for lunch whole grain products mostly or yogurt with berries and a cup of green tea, I love dark chocolate and I like sugary stuff, but I'm cutting down the sugar as much as possible.  I love cooking so I eat all kinds of pasta dishes (some times vegetarian) risotto's with vegetables and chicken, Asian meals with rice or noodles and in the weekend I have breakfast with whole grain bread (butter and cheese or meat on top), eggs and just one cup of coffee. I stopped drinking fruit juices (even the freshly made). I snack on walnuts or an apple.
Trying to eat more protein, eat more veggies and drink more water as well. I'm not a big fan of fruit, but I try to incorporate fresh fruit in my desserts a few times a week. I've read about strategically eat proteins and carbohydrates for tryptophan. Not sure if I'm doing it right though. Only fish is problem here: it's very expensive!

About gluten: I've been eating gluten all my life. I don't have IBS nor do I feel bloated after eating grains.
I don't have any allergies or food allergies and I don't have hay fever either. 

Exercise: I run 2 or 3 times a week, for about 30-40 minutes (in the woods nearby) and do hatha yoga a few times a week.

Alcohol, binge eating, coffee, and drugs: I've never done drugs and I don't smoke. I drink a glass of whine every other saturday or make some irish coffee. I don't feel like I need alcohol to relax or have fun.
I have one cup of coffee in the morning and one in the evening. I could do without. 
I've never been a binge eater and  have a normal weight. 

Other: No crimes committed, not a risk taker and not into adrenaline sports


Short medical history:
1,5 years old - Double pneumothorax, high fever and ear infection (could also be a throat infection, my parents can't remember this anymore)
Was released from the hospital after fever came down, but the story goes that I was traumatized from the rough treatment from doctors and nurses (I wasn't abused sexually but there were really unfriendly, harsh and not calming me down). No one (except my parents) was able to touch me or hold me and our family doctor needed to take off his white coat before he could approach me. I can't remember anything from this period, but I kept wetting my bed (till I was 7 years old) because I was such a heavy sleeper and vivid dreamer.
5 years old - adenoids were removed 
12 years old - I developed chronic sinus infections. I breathed through my mouth because my nose was blocked all the time. Was treated for this two times (rinse of the maxillary sinus) and from that time on it got better. 
19 years old - Broke my ankle and was operated on under general anesthesia. 10 months later the screws and plate were removed under general anesthesia as well.
Every winter season I have the flu (one week), a cold and sore throats a few times

I will also have to note that I saw a psychologist after my parents divorced when I was 7 years old.
When I was 13 years old there where new law suits about custody, this wasn't a happy time in my life since my parents were constantly fighting over me. I couldn't break free from this situation and was mentally abused by my father.
In my teens there were no traces of OCD or other obsessive thoughts. I was a shy girl who got her first period when she was 14 and late with developing breasts. No boyfriends and became sexual active when I was 18. I started birth control (Microgynon-30) and two years later the Nuvaring. When I was 26 I was on the Diane-35 pill for a while because of acne on my back and shoulders. That helped a lot. I'm not on hormones for 5 years now.
I have been tested for STD's a few times because I was spotting between my periods. This turned out to be light erosion from the cervix and quite innocent. 

Last note: I've been reading A LOT about neurotransmitters and the brain lately. Did the Bravermenn Test (outcome didn't really make sense to me) online, read about nootropics like NAC and inositol, serotonin depletion, withdrawal symptoms, what causes OCD (not sure I have pure O, but it's the closest I got), about the regular medication, tachycardia / poop-out, neuroplasticity and looked at work from autors like Jeffrey Schwartz and Norman Doidge, Yesterday I came across hormonal imbalances. Since my periods are super irregular (I suspect caused by Lexapro) and I do feel better mid-cycle, this got my interest as well. Oh and I even researched Kundalini Yoga!

You get it: I do want to get rid of it. Since this seems nearly impossible I wonder if I should just give up and make the best of it.  "Not worry about it" or "don't react to the thought" is something I have tried for ages, but I just can't change how I'm feeling about it....
Thank you so much for reading. I could use ANY advice or feedback. 

 


Edited by Catwoman, 08 August 2016 - 01:37 PM.

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#2 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 02:36 PM

First, I would like to say that the post is great at informing - it gives a good over-view of you and your symptoms.

 

Second, I'm CDD - Concentration Deficit Disorder (SCT or ADD), so it's actually waaay too dense for me to absorb all of it, lol!

 

Anyways, this seems like an existencial form of anxiety - I've had this as well, and still have small bouts now and then. Anti-depressants have helped immensely though, as has counselling. So mine is probably not the same - more like caused by external stimuli.

 

Yours is so great, that I would say it IS a form of OCD - a neurologic disorder. (psychology is disproven once more - there is actually a clear neurologic profile of OCD now, and it's something.)

 

Neurobiological model of obsessive–compulsive disorder: Evidence from recent neuropsychological and neuroimaging findings

http://onlinelibrary.../pcn.12195/full

 

 

Apparently you can actually scan the brain using fMRI to determine how potentially great your symptoms are, even. But as with literally every other psychiatric disorder, this data is nay-sayed as not useful for diagnosis and treatment...

 

Altered intrinsic insular activity predicts symptom severity in unmedicated obsessive-compulsive disorder patients: a resting state functional magnetic resonance imaging study

https://bmcpsychiatr...2888-016-0806-9

 

 

If you really do have OCD, then it's probably a life-long disorder, or you at least have genetically related brain-structures (since it's highly inheritable) which will be prone to relapse. This means, that you shouldn't keep going off your medication.

 

You have to stay on it - for life. If you find just the right one though, I don't see any problems with this - it is what it is. So many of us (me included) have chronic disorders that need life-long medication.

 

 

Now, you probably already know of most meds used to treat it - chief being Fluoxetine I believe. (btw, the fMRI-scans have shown very different structural differences and activity than with other anxiety-disorders, many of them, like GAD, seems to be related to excessive serotonergic activity, but OCD is different...) So, I'm going to suggest two rather exotic alternatives...

 

 

1. ACETAMINOPHEN! : D

 

That's right, Tylenol/Paracetamol/Alvedon et c, is actually a potent inhibitor of a specific type of anxiety - existential anxiety! ^^

 

"Acetaminophen inhibits neuronal inflammation and protects neurons from oxidative stress"
http://www.jneuroinf.../content/6/1/10
(depression och ångest har delvis kunnat kopplas till inflammation)

"Acetaminophen Reduces Social Pain - Behavioral and Neural Evidence"
http://pss.sagepub.c...ontent/21/7/931

"The Common Pain of Surrealism and Death Acetaminophen Reduces Compensatory Affirmation Following Meaning Threats"
http://pss.sagepub.c...956797612464786

"Paracetamol potentiates the antidepressant-like and anticompulsive-like effects of fluoxetine."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25340977

 

It even works as a good add-on to Fluoxetine! : )

However... it's generally the very high doses which gives this effect - 2-3 GRAMS.

 

As you're no doubt aware of as well, Acetaminophen SHREDS livers - it causes hundreds of liver failures per year. Luckily, there are ways around it: a combo of Milk Thistle (plant extract) and Methionine should do the trick.

 

https://en.wikipedia...etamol_toxicity

 

 

2. CANNABINOID COMPOUND!

 

Sadly, I've got burn-out, so I can't find it for you now - but they've finally found the mechanism through which cannabis inhibits anxiety: It's one of the non-narcotic substances, either CBG or CBD. The mechanism is the same as with Acetaminophen - inhibits the same chemistry, same symptoms - existential dread. Unlike Acetaminophen it doesn't have liver toxicity as a side-effect though! Which certainly makes dosing easier.

 

Also note: it is NOT the actual cannabis-plant which gives the effect - those effects are often unreliable and varies a lot, it being a plant with different breeds et c. But it's the synthesized version of the compound - 100% pure.

 

If I don't return with the info, you can no doubt find it via your own research! = )



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#3 Catwoman

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 02:53 PM

Hi Stinkorninjor!

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate that some one is willing to read on and come up with some ideas.

You know, I wasn't actually on planning to go off the SSRI. I was fine of fluvoxamine (Luvox) and I was fine on escitalopram (Lexapro).  It became problematic when I went off them (or was on a very low dose) and then starting them again they wouldn't work anymore. I accepted that the disorder was life long and wasn't having nasty side effects, so there was no reason to taper it. 
It wasn't the best idea to taper Luvox, but I didn't know that at the time. Then Lexapro, but it pooped out, which I didn't expect! 

The reason why it pooped out...I don't know. Tolerance? Desensitized receptors?
Got my info from this link: http://mentalhealthd...king-solutions/

My idea for now is to go on drug holiday. I will stay on the 2,5 mg till I'm stable (I am having some withdrawal symptoms) and after more advice/feedback go on some supplements / nootropics as a trial.
I can't believe SSRI's will work for me on the long term.

CBD is actually very interesting. I've been researching this a little as well.  I have a good friend who knows a lot about it (medicinal use). I'm from The Netherlands after all ;-)
From what I gathered it can't be used (the oil for example) together with SSRI's.

 

 

However... it's generally the very high doses which gives this effect - 2-3 GRAMS.

 

As you're no doubt aware of as well, Acetaminophen SHREDS livers - it causes hundreds of liver failures per year. Luckily, there are ways around it: a combo of Milk Thistle (plant extract) and Methionine should do the trick.

Yes, that was my first thought as well. In high doses paracetamol can damage the liver, so no thanks.
But the combo sounds promising. Milk Thistle is something I heard of. I've read that it could be just as effective as fluoxetine as a mono-therapy, but i can't find the publication anymore.


Edited by Catwoman, 08 August 2016 - 03:27 PM.


#4 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 07:11 PM

Here's the info on Cannabis and dampening of emotional, existential pain:

 

http://www.smithsoni...9786068/?no-ist

 

And here's some more info on the Anterior Cingulate Cortex:
http://www.sutherlan...n_ACC_Apr09.pdf

 

The Anterior Cingulate Cortex is the target - same part of the brain that Acetaminophen affects. However, it's the most illegal of all Cannabis-compounds!! 0_o It's a specially prepared sublingual thc-solution. So apparently, THC is a compound with a similar effect, in part, to Acetaminophen. Huh. Well, they're both derived from plants. I don't think Birch is related to Cannabis though.

 

Here's some info on how to prevent acetaminophen toxicity:

 

Vitamin D3 increases Glutathione-production

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11893522

 

1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 regulates the synthesis of gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase and glutathione levels in rat primary astrocytes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/10428085

 

 

Milk Thistle's way of protecting the liver:

 

Silibinin protects OTA-mediated TNF-alpha release from perfused rat livers and isolated rat Kupffer cells.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19156713

 

 

Hepatoprotective efficacy of certain flavonoids against microcystin induced toxicity in mice.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17696131

 

It does more than increase glutathione, it enhances the cell-walls as well, meaning that toxins have a harder time to actually destroy cells.

 

I hope you're not writing Acetaminophen off just yet though - unlike THC it's legal, and easy to come by, (plants don't count, dude... remember, sublingual? Pure?) and actually has proven results on existential anxiety - your problem. We're not a 100% that THC will do the same, not yet.

 

And I really believe that D3 and Silimarin will protect your liver. And, in closing, Acetaminophen usually only starts becoming toxic at around 4 mg's - if you get an effect at 2 mg's, then you should be perfectly safe! = )

Especially with milk thistle and D3. (you may need 3 mg's, but the tests actually used 2 mg's.)



#5 Catwoman

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 08:03 PM

Hi again! Thanks so much for all the new information. More to think about...it's been overwhelming the last few weeks.

I'm still not sure how strong the existential anxiety (thanatophobia) and the intrusion are related.
Sometimes I think the intrusion stems from the phobia or that the intrusion is a symptom of underlying chronic stress, produced by deeper parts of the brain. What if the existential anxiety is reduced, then I wouldn't be afraid of death so much. I could deal with the intrusion, which would become a lot easier because I'm not that anxious anymore (for example, the lymbic system has calmed down for good).

On the other hand, the intrusion is quite empty, it's not filled with anxiety or scary images of losing some one or not waking up the next morning.  The real panic attacks don't come that often (more like once a month nowadays). I don't think it's 'me' doing it. More like an error in the program or a scratch on my CD. So I'm not phobic in every day life. I could live with a panic attack once in a while...as long as the thought isn;t intruding. The SSRI was doing great work.
Mindfulness would be ideal: training and drilling my mind to just let the intrusion pass by. I haven't been able to see it as a neutral thought yet....

So what is actually going on...I still don't get it. Partly because I'm just not a biologist or psychiatrist I guess. It's interesting, but complex matter!!
Not that I expect other people to have answers for me by the way.

I might try other nootropics or supplements first. The paracetamol is really interesting. It can't be that easy ;-)
How long should I trial 2 or 3 grams a day?

I also went on a vacation this summer. Lots of sunshine, long walks in nature, lots of distraction, a peaceful environment...after two days the intrusion didn't come up as often and on the fifth day I could manage it.
Wondering if a day light lamp would do the same trick? Sunlight increases serotonin, right?

 


Edited by Catwoman, 08 August 2016 - 08:05 PM.


#6 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 10:55 PM

A day light won't do it - CBT and mindfulness might be something though, since you're describing weaker symptoms most recently - might be you're almost remissioned.

 

Acetaminophen is actually supposed to be pretty fast-acting - the effect on emotional pain is supposed to come on about as quick as the effects on physical pain - so, it kicks in less than an hour after you take it. You probably won't notice the effects for a while though, so about 3 weeks I say, then you should know if it's working.

 

Also, remember that it alters some of your deepest brain-structures, so there' not going to be any big obvious signs that it's working - it's supposed to be very, very discreet. I usually don't feel it kick in when treating pain either - it just... sort of floats in there, and then you realize you're hurting less, all of a sudden.

 

It's the same with the emotional effect.  (I've actually tried it - and noticed mostly a sort of... increased calm??)

The half-life is a bit problematic though... It's only 1-4 hours! Jesus... And unless you have liver-protection, you can't re-dose much. Still, the best thing I can think of, is to try 2 mg before sleep, since you have had problems with those thoughts then - should work pretty well in that respect. (it's curious though... It almost seems as if the emotion-inhibiting effect lasts longer than the pain-inhibiting? How is this supposed to be synergistic with fluoxetine otherwise? Sadly, I'm too burnt out to check the studies again.)

 

Let's see... if you take 0,5 grams in the morning, and then another 0,5 around lunch... and then 1,5 grams for night-time, then you should cover some ground there! = ) A total of 2,5 grams. A little bit high, but what are you gonna' do? If you have the liver-protectors as well, you should be safe.

 

 

Well, that - or maybe you CAN score some pure THC? Maybe there's a source in Amsterdam? It is, after all, legal there, right? May not be impossible. Check the Dutch boards - it's bound to be around somewhere in Holland... Then you won't have to worry about toxicity! = ) Man, I keep forgetting it's LEGAL over at your place...

 

 

EDIT:
Definitely get THC. Paracetamol achieves the effect by modulating the cannabinoid system. The effects are probably nearly interchangeable then. Well, except I think THC causes brain-fog? Acetaminophen does not -even at high doses. (I've tried 3 Grams my self)

 

On the other hand... Acetaminophen shreds your liver, so...

Conversion of acetaminophen to the bioactive N-acylphenolamine AM404 via fatty acid amide hydrolase-dependent arachidonic acid conjugation in the nervous system.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15987694

 

This novel metabolite of acetaminophen also acts on the endogenous cannabinoid system, which, together with TRPV1 and COX, is present in the pain and thermoregulatory pathways.

 

 

The analgesic activity of paracetamol is prevented by the blockade of cannabinoid CB1 receptors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16438952

 

 


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 08 August 2016 - 11:04 PM.


#7 Catwoman

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Posted 09 August 2016 - 07:09 AM

I am able to get CBD oil from a good friend...but I'm not sure if it is wise to use it since I'm still on 2,5mg Lexapro.

The effects from a holiday in the sun aren't lasting. But it seems to reduce the intrusion tremendously. A few days of relaxing, hiking and distraction seems to activate some kind of process in the brain. I could just let the thought pass by without judging it. Normally I am not able to do this.

I'm wondering about NAC, inositol and SAMe. Read good things about NAC.

I also tried 1000 mg of paracetamol yesterday afternoon. Was having a head ache anyway. Seemed a bit calming but it was probably my imagination.
I will consider a trial though the risk of liver damage does scare me. Ill look for the milk thistle!

#8 platypus

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Posted 09 August 2016 - 08:08 AM

Perhaps you should do an Ayahuasca-ceremony? A really strong psychedelic experience could enable you to blast through your defenses and get you out of your rut. 



#9 Catwoman

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Posted 09 August 2016 - 09:58 AM

Perhaps you should do an Ayahuasca-ceremony? A really strong psychedelic experience could enable you to blast through your defenses and get you out of your rut. 

Thanks for your reply Platypus!

Interesting, I will consider it though I am hesistant. I mean: my brain is acting weird already! It does seem that I'm keeping some sort of automatic defense up. It's not like I WANT to have the thought NOR do I want to respond to it in a negative way. I should be able to turn it around and if I don't give it so much attention it will die out eventually. Habits all do, if you consider it a habit though (the reacting negatively to it). 

That said I just read that you can't participate and drink the ayahuasca tea if you're on an SSRI. The combination of an SSRI with MAOi's is dangerous.



#10 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 09 August 2016 - 09:17 PM

Complete shutdown of mind... but must ... reply!

 

Anyways... where was I...

 

Ah! Yes. CBD oil won't help - because it's actually THC itself which has the potential effect on existential pain. (also, remember - it works in an incredibly discrete way - you won't notice much until it has had maximum effect.)

 

And since you mention your response, a negative one, to these old thoughts about death - then perhaps a Kappa-Antagonist like CERC-501 could be a good thing? Check out the group buy thread - it might be something worth trying. The safety-profile is good, and the potential effects are something akin to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy - enhancing your ability to analyze negative thought-patterns and then move on from them.

 

Basically, it blunts punishment instead of enhancing reward.

 

 

Perhaps you should do an Ayahuasca-ceremony? A really strong psychedelic experience could enable you to blast through your defenses and get you out of your rut. 

 

Hmm. Is there some evidence that Ayahuasca, or other psychedelics, actually helps with the specific issues she has?



#11 Catwoman

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 07:46 AM

Thanks again Stinkorninjor!


I'm not sure if I should tackle the existential anxiety right now.  It seems like the root (it all started with being afraid of it) but I've become more anxious and depressed about having the thought all the time. The trick would be to learn how to react to it with a neutral emotion. In theory it would then just die out (like it did before in the last 12 years, on or off SSRI's).

CERC-501 could actually be something, because the thing I find most difficult is not to react to the thought. It's always a negative emotion or feeling. 
I'm dreaming of a drug which can help me with turning this around.

I'm afraid of trying it on my own though...and I wouldn't know how to acquire it (even with a group buy). I don't have the money at all.

 


Edited by Catwoman, 10 August 2016 - 07:47 AM.


#12 platypus

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 09:05 AM

Perhaps you should do an Ayahuasca-ceremony? A really strong psychedelic experience could enable you to blast through your defenses and get you out of your rut. 

 

Hmm. Is there some evidence that Ayahuasca, or other psychedelics, actually helps with the specific issues she has?

 

Her issue is fear of death and yes, there is quite a bit of evidence that psychedelics in general can help with that. They have even been administered to dying persons for this purpose. 



#13 Catwoman

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 09:31 AM

It seems like I have two issues  :-D 

1)The fear of death
2)Thought of death which keeps coming back. 

1)used to give me panic attacks, once in a while, never thought about death during day time. It's just something you don't really think about that much.
2)First occurred as an intrusion right -after- a panic attack 12 years ago.

I can feel a great distinction between this thought/mind pop / intrusion and other thoughts. For example there was an issue at work and I don't like to think about it. But it just flows away after a while. I don't pay much attention to it or I go do something else. It's annoying but not of any significance. I sometimes think about it again.

1)Death does scare me but doesn't give me panic or anxiety during the day and I don't think about dying / death that often. I even try think about it consciously but it doesn't quite scare me anymore.
2)Has been bothering me for years and only stayed away 'for good' while taking an SSRI. Now that the SSRI isn't working for this problem anymore I can have the thought like....all the time!
BUT when I do fun stuff, when I'm among friends or I have lots of distraction or do something which really occupies my mind it's not popping up so much. That makes me happy ;-)

The problem with 2) is that when I'm back home again (example: from the fun stuff) it pops up much more often. I worry about it and will try to (automatically) push it away because I don't like it!
I don't even think about 1) during that moment.

Sorry I can't emphasize this too much and I really hope there's some one who gets it. So my apologies for going on and on and nagging about it. I guess I'm just desperately trying to understand!
 



#14 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 10:37 PM

 

Perhaps you should do an Ayahuasca-ceremony? A really strong psychedelic experience could enable you to blast through your defenses and get you out of your rut. 

 

Hmm. Is there some evidence that Ayahuasca, or other psychedelics, actually helps with the specific issues she has?

 

Her issue is fear of death and yes, there is quite a bit of evidence that psychedelics in general can help with that. They have even been administered to dying persons for this purpose. 

 

In the last part I was trying to hint that I want you to show me studies - hard proof that it works... Perhaps that it's even being considered as a large-scale treatment of fear of death in terminal patients.

 

Perhaps you could also outline some good practices, yes? How to use a psychedelic experience in the best way possible - setting, companions, dosing, all sorts of things. You can't just throw it out like that, and then be completely mum about the specifics.



#15 Catwoman

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 02:30 PM

I'm still wondering if it's of any use to choose one or two of the 'regular' serotonergic nootropics/adaptogens/supplements after a person has reached poop-out from an SSRI.

Of course this isn't wise when one is still taking the SSRI because of the risk of serotonin syndrome, so taking a supplement like rhodiola would mean to fully withdraw from the SSRI first. Is the brain even gonna respond to such supplements when a person has pooped out and then tapers?

I hope Platypus has some more info on the ayahuasca!
 


Edited by Catwoman, 11 August 2016 - 02:34 PM.


#16 Catwoman

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 07:05 PM

It would be so cool to just feel indifferent about me having that thought and reacting to it like: "oh you again. Bye".
But instead of words just not feeling much.

I was talking about it with my husband today. He said: "just stop worrying about it".

Not that I didn't already try that, but what if there's a way to just stop worrying and feel calmness, even indifferent? That would take all the power away.

I think one could accomplish this with meditation. Only in my case achieving the indifferent, calm and neutral reaction would take years....


Edited by Catwoman, 14 August 2016 - 07:06 PM.


#17 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 09:57 PM

Well.

If all else fails, you can always try Intravenous Ketamine... It's important that it's IV too, I'd post links, but my brain is shattered. (ketamineadvocacynetwork they have info)

 

But seriously - THC and Acetaminophen should work.

 

You just have to decide which one seems to be the most suitable to your needs - weighing the pro's and con's. Since you're in Holland, I can't imagine that it's impossible.

 

Here, I think this shop has some high-thc content CBD-oil:
 

http://www.dutch-hea...lie-c-4_98.html

 

What you're going to have to do, if you can't find it pure, is to buy high-thc cbd-oil, and then purify it even further. Not sure how yet, but I'll look around.



#18 Catwoman

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 06:51 AM

Hi Stinkorninjor!

The CBD oil isn't any problem, though I'm hesitant because I always stayed far away from anything which could be even remotely linked to cannabis. It's interesting though (and it's not even cannabis) and I might try it (I can probably get it from a good friend)
It's a lot more expensive then the paracetamol/acetaminophen though. 
I would have to combine the acetaminophen with the liver protectors, but even together, it wouldn't be as expensive as THC or CBD products.

CBD en THC products shouldn't be combined with SSRI's. I'm planning to stay on the 2,5 mg of Lexapro for about a week and after that I want to detox my body for 2-4 weeks.
I take fish oil capsules and some vitamines and that's it.

The psychiatrist I consulted suggested I'd try a low dose of haloperidol or risperidone. Since they are highly toxic I won't try these. He also suggested trying another SSRI, but I will reach tolerace/poop-out sooner of later, so that's not a solution. It might not even work anymore, since the poop-out might be due to tolerance....I tried to explain this to him but he said we still don't know the mechanism of pooping-out....I know he's the one who studied psychiatry, but still!

Ketamine? Aren't there other options when you consider targeting glutamate / NMDA?

 


Edited by Catwoman, 15 August 2016 - 06:59 AM.


#19 Catwoman

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 04:13 PM

Great....Lexapro / escitalopram withdrawal...or at least I think it's from withdrawing.
I've been on zero miligrams for a few days now. More depressed and more intrusive thoughts (not the new one, that one faded mostly) but the original one still doing it.

Decided to stop looking for solutions, but....I'm feeling so depressed now (which is both related to having the intrusion as well as the withdrawal) that I am very tempted to buy just about everything, from SAM-e and rhodiola and from Inositol to L-Theanine...just to get so relief from the low mood and intrusive thought processes.



#20 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 04:34 PM

If you want to get rid of the OCD-tendencies, then ya' gotta' go all-in friend-girl! = )

Mirtazapine may be one of the best for that... It antagonizes a whole bunch of Serotonin-receptors, and slightly the dopaminergic receptors as well! : D

 

I just did a double-check on it, since I'm looking into compounds which antagonize 5ht2a-receptors (doing so enhances slow-wave sleep - the good sleep), and it's pretty darn good...

 

Regular anxiety is caused by high serotonin, most likely, and there is indications that OCD is caused by high dopamine, so this might be pretty good! = ) The reviews from OCD-sufferers seem to agree at least.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...ne#Pharmacology

 

https://www.drugs.co...e-disorder.html

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....331/table/tbl2/

 

 

It doesn't have as big of a problem with discontinuation as the SSRI's (I've been on Sertraline, one of the less discon-inducing SSRI's, and I can tell you, Mirtazapine has LESS such issues.) and it generally has a somewhat better side-effects profile. (slightly higher efficacy as an antidepressant as well, but not by much)

The main drawback of course being that if you are susceptible to it... Mirtazapine is THE MOST weight-gaining medication out there! : O If you are susceptible to the almost pathological hunger it induces, you will know it within the first week. About 20% of the population are susceptible though, so even though that's a lot of folks, there's still an 80% -chance that you WON'T have that side-effect.

 

Give it a shot, yeah? = )



#21 Catwoman

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 07:51 PM

I might give that one a shot. Or clomi / anafranil. I have good metabolism and I have a normal weight. Wouldn't want to gain any more than 2 or 3 kilo's though.

But trying right now, no. I just want to test the serotonergic supplements first. Not sure which one, but I mean, stepping on the psych drug train is a big step and you don't go off so easily. I wouldn't mind it if there wasn't the possibility of tolerance.

Plus, I could try to deal with the Pure O if I could just learn how to react to it in a more neutral way. Again, it would loose all power. 
Trying to figure out which ones could work on a more calm, confident state of mind.

At the moment it's more depression (related to Pure O and withdrawal) then anxiety. I don't feel overly anxious...it's more the worrying kind of feeling and a nasty low mood.

 


Edited by Catwoman, 26 August 2016 - 07:53 PM.


#22 Quaker32

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 05:42 PM

I have read your background history and you sound healthy....exercise, yoga, no cannabis or other drugs, don't need alcohol etc. That's good!

 

What have you read by Jeffrey Schwartz? He has a book called Brain Lock and youtube clips.

 

Do you do any meditation at all? And/or a support group?

 

I have just started meditating and have got one person I can call up when my OCD gets severe. Also I am taking iMagt from Sabre Sciences, so will let you know if the l-threonate + inositol does anything.....although im taking a very low dose.



#23 Quaker32

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 05:44 PM

maybe around your phobis of death, some of it is philisophical acceptance (or lack of) or you understadning who you are/what we are. i can relate to the pain and anxiety you are feeling. i like to think that mental health issues can be treating via medication but need the person to change and evolve the "narrative" as well.



#24 Catwoman

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 08:50 AM

I have read your background history and you sound healthy....exercise, yoga, no cannabis or other drugs, don't need alcohol etc. That's good!

 

What have you read by Jeffrey Schwartz? He has a book called Brain Lock and youtube clips.

 

Do you do any meditation at all? And/or a support group?

 

I have just started meditating and have got one person I can call up when my OCD gets severe. Also I am taking iMagt from Sabre Sciences, so will let you know if the l-threonate + inositol does anything.....although im taking a very low dose.

Yes and I just came back from running (almost 3 miles). My body feels healthy. My mind feels like it's not mine...sort of. It just doesn't fit.

There's an online forum I post on, it's Dutch and it's small, but it's something.

I haven't read any of Schwartz's work yet. I know about the research he did. One of the complaints I saw on Amazon (on 'Brain Lock') was that his four step method is primarily focused on the 'regular' OCD. Like obsessive hand washing. I can see someone can do ERP on these compulsions or that an ocd'er can learn to postpone the compulsions and/or go do something else instead to shift gear.
When you have Pure O and you're bothered by intrusions it's not so easy to get away from these. I can have the intrusion while doing simple chores or when I'm going out with friends. Switch to another task -can- help but it's not helping me to get 'unstuck' like Schwartz is describing it.

I meditate a few times a week. The hard part for me is that I can't just let the intrusion be there in my mind while I'm meditating. It keeps popping up and I don't like it. I can't hold it and I can't get rid of it. The problem is that I still haven't figured out how to observe and not judge it. In mindfulness meditation styles you are supposed to just sit with it, but every time I try this I don't succeed. This is very frustrating and not helping....
The same with yoga. It used to calm me, before relapsing I took classes, but even with yoga I can't get away from it.

I guess it has something to do with learned behavior PLUS chemical imbalance / wrong signalling. 

How much iMagt /   l-threonate + inositol are you supposed to take every day?
I came across this topic a few days ago, some one combining inositol with magnesium and it worked for him on OCD:
http://anxietyforum....ith-supplements

Let me know how you're doing with it!
 


 



#25 Catwoman

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 09:01 AM

maybe around your phobis of death, some of it is philisophical acceptance (or lack of) or you understadning who you are/what we are. i can relate to the pain and anxiety you are feeling. i like to think that mental health issues can be treating via medication but need the person to change and evolve the "narrative" as well.

Yes! The symptoms (the obsessive thinking, ruminating, thought popping up, intrusion) can be treated with medication or even alternative remedies (supplements, nootropics, adaptogens). What you can't get rid of is the original problem and the way you react (though with CBT you can make changes).
I've been anxious about death all my life. The existential fear to be exact. That fear is something I'm still not able to deal with. It lessened over the years and I don't think this can be treated (though the articles and research which have been posted by LC member Stinkorninjor are interesting!) with medication. 

I do think the repetitive thought / intrusion is bothering me more than the actual fear of death. 
It started with the content of the thought, nowadays it's more like: "Grrr, I'm trying to have fun here or do my job, why is this thought harassing me all the time? It's not fun to think about cake or dogs or an ex-partner all day either"

Instead of thinking something like: "Hi intrusion, how are you? I can think about you whenever I like"

But I haven't managed that yet...I guess (maybe too simple) low serotonin in the related brain areas.



#26 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:36 PM

I think you can do it - the Pure O can be controlled with medications - I'm personally thinking Tianeptine and Memantine are the two compounds that could change your life in that regard. = )

 

Now... the existential part is hard, there's not a lot of options there, chemically - you know about THC and Acetaminophen, which I do think are effective - but they both have big drawbacks.

 

I suggest starting a regimen of Tianeptine (user Strangelove on the forums actually sells it in pure powder form, if you're interested.), and then trying something different for the existential part...

 

 

Chinese Zen BLIA Buddhism.

https://en.wikipedia...C3.A1n_Buddhism

 

http://ibps.nl/home-2/

 

I'm not the type to suggest stuff like this, but I actually think there might be something to this - these guys are legit - the real deal, and a bit modernised and secular and everything - but still, the most traditional and legit you'll find in the Netherlands. They have a temple in Amsterdam's Chinatown, you've probably heard of it. Go there, and ask to speak with the Pahang (abbot) - he's the leader of the monastery, and most likely a very wise man. Tell him that you fear death, and ask him if he can help you to let go of this fear.

 

Do not hold anything back when you ask him - let it all out about how long the fear has held you in its grip - how you've tried hard to ignore it - don't be afraid to become emotional in front of a stranger, this is what he does.

 

The Zen-munks have developed techniques for relaxation, clearing of the mind, and how to conquer the fear of death, for thousands of years. This is their very purpose in life, what they work towards every day.
 

I'm not religious, I'm quite the sceptic, but there's scientific proof that these guys have higher natural levels of BDNF and neuroplasticity, a greater control of their brainwaves, than the average joe. I don't think you should become a nun, build a shrine to the Buddha and start wearing nothing but orange, but I do think they have useful skills which you should take a look at.

 

If it was me, I'd plan it as a big getaway, try and walk a great deal of the distance to the temple even - to get the feeling of a new journey into me - a journey of renewal - a new chapter in life.

 

Heck! I actually got all inspired while doing the research on this for you! I think I'm actually going to do something similar... I need to, to find a new way of avoiding burnout.



#27 Catwoman

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 02:31 PM

Combine Stablon / Tianeptine and Memantine or just one of them?

I've read a few topics here on tianeptine and thought it was very interesting. 
Why isn't it prescribed more often? I don't even think it's available in the Netherlands....would be scary to try this on my own. Maybe I can ask the psychiatrist...I think my consultation is by the end of next month.

The Buddhism part...
It's not such a weird idea...it's a recurring theme in my life, the fear of death. I'm 32 now and I was always planning on living well into my 80's so then I still have a few years to go with that fear going on...I don't want to think about feeling this kind of fear for the rest of my life!
I can't do it all at once, but maybe somewhere in 2017 I'll go on a retrait, just me, myself and I.

 



#28 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 05:07 PM

Combine Stablon / Tianeptine and Memantine or just one of them?

I've read a few topics here on tianeptine and thought it was very interesting. 
Why isn't it prescribed more often? I don't even think it's available in the Netherlands....would be scary to try this on my own. Maybe I can ask the psychiatrist...I think my consultation is by the end of next month.

The Buddhism part...
It's not such a weird idea...it's a recurring theme in my life, the fear of death. I'm 32 now and I was always planning on living well into my 80's so then I still have a few years to go with that fear going on...I don't want to think about feeling this kind of fear for the rest of my life!
I can't do it all at once, but maybe somewhere in 2017 I'll go on a retrait, just me, myself and I.

 

 

One at a time, definitely one at a time.

 

I think the reason it isn't prescribed more often has to do mostly with PR actually - it was invented by a non-profit organisation, and they then licensed it out to a PRIVATE company - not a public one. Public companies which want to sell their stocks and all that, do more in the ways of promoting products and trying to hog their latest products. Servier just isn't as aggressive when it comes to marketing and ratifying as Eli Lilly, for instance.

 

It's great stuff though, and I wish they would try to get it branded and available in the entire EU - I really do think they could get a much bigger piece of the revenue-pie if they tried.

 

Man, I totally think Tianeptine-derivatives, new variations of the molecule could have even better effect! Increased half-life for instance, could have some profound impacts on efficacy.



#29 Catwoman

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 10:54 AM

I'm going to see a psychiatrist by the end of September and I wonder if he knows about tianeptine. I've been googling, but I can't find a lot of positivism. Though it in theory it sounds really good!
It's not available in the Netherlands, probably more expensive when I buy it myself, but more importantly, I won't try it on my own. So I'm curious what his feedback is.

I will make a list and ask him about all the meds which have come up in my topic(s). I hope he has the time and is open to discuss it with me. I'm not the dummy to just go on a (psych) drug without asking all the questions. I need to know what I'm taking and what it is targeting in my brain. It's very important to me that he will listen to -my- story, take in all the details and prescribes something that is specific for my issues.

What I find really curious is many people (on American forums anyway) say: "My doctor put me on drug 'X' and later added drug 'X2'. Four weeks later he took me off drug 'X2' and put me on drug 'X3".
Like you don't have a say in it, you don't need to taper anything and taking drugs because your doctor puts you on them is the best thing to do. Therapy, anyone?

Okay enough ranting!
I'm not the one who studied medicine and I don't have the same experience that my (new) pdoc has...so I do need to have a little more faith/trust in some one like that.




 



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#30 2016ftw

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 06:01 AM

I have Ocd. Your onset is pretty darn close to mine. I would say Ocd. Like others said, learn meditation. I've been looking to get tieneptine. Does anyone know where to buy stablon?





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