60 replies to this topic

[D12A]

 

25OH. And the result is in nmol/L.

 

That's about 40 ng/ml. With a range of 20-100 ng/ml not that bad, but not anywhere near to maxed out.
 

 

 

Yeah, seems like it. Since my doctor did not consider it abnormal, I think it is safe to assume it is enough.

[RWhigham]

 

There is a constant problem that shows up

frequently - elevated ALP. That's it. No AST, GGT are abnormal. Just ALP.

 

See https://labtestsonli...s/alp/tab/test/

 

"High ALP usually means that either the liver has been damaged or a condition causing increased bone cell activity is present."

 

"If GGT or 5'-nucleotidase is also increased, then the high ALP is likely due to liver disease." "If either of these is normal, then the high ALP is likely due to a bone condition". [note the word "likely" - I wouldn't completely rule out a liver duct problem] 

 

"If calcium and/or phosphorus measurements are abnormal, usually the ALP is coming from bone." [Have you tested your calcium level to rule out a bone problem?]

 

"Moderately elevated ALP may result from other conditions, such as Hodgkin's lymphoma, congestive heart failure, ulcerative colitis, and certain bacterial infections." [If you or your doctor can rule these out, then by all means continue trying to help your liver.]

Edited by RWhigham, 22 December 2016 - 01:33 AM.

[D12A]

 

 

There is a constant problem that shows up

frequently - elevated ALP. That's it. No AST, GGT are abnormal. Just ALP.

 

See https://labtestsonli...s/alp/tab/test/

 

"High ALP usually means that either the liver has been damaged or a condition causing increased bone cell activity is present."

 

"If GGT or 5'-nucleotidase is also increased, then the high ALP is likely due to liver disease." "If either of these is normal, then the high ALP is likely due to a bone condition". [note the word "likely" - I wouldn't completely rule out a liver duct problem] 

 

"If calcium and/or phosphorus measurements are abnormal, usually the ALP is coming from bone." [Have you tested your calcium level to rule out a bone problem?]

 

"Moderately elevated ALP may result from other conditions, such as Hodgkin's lymphoma, congestive heart failure, ulcerative colitis, and certain bacterial infections." [If you or your doctor can rule these out, then by all means continue trying to help your liver.]

 

Another thing is that my ALP was 106 aka normal when I was back for holidays in my home country. It was in June and I had no stress and lots of sun. Whenever I am back in UK, I always have this abnormal reading. My calcium and phosphate were both tested. At one time, around a year ago according to test results, phosphate was very slightly above normal. I had calcium and phosphate tested again 2 weeks ago and it was in range. Thanks for advice.

[chung_pao]

Only cure needed:
Removal of the cause of damage or poor function.

If you want to enhance function beyond normal, you have to be specific.
What do you want to enhance?

Glutathione production? Use Gardenia Jasmoides.
Bile secretion? Gardenia Jasmoides or Gentiana scabra.

Cyp production? Rhubarb. Capsaicin high dose. Or Gentiana Scabra. Or Andrographis... Houttuyna Cordata.
Depending on which cyp you want to induce.

Drugs can only improve specific functions by exercising them.

If you want normal liver function though:
Remove the cause of injury.
Have some green tea. Exercise. Eat eggs and veggies daily.
Duh...

[normalizing]

this is very recent and interesting article; http://www.nutraingr...-liver-benefits

[Dorian Grey]

French Oak Wood Extract?  Interesting, but I steer clear of the truly exotic liver tonics.  I like to see at least a dozen, and preferably several dozen quality studies in PubMed when it comes to supps for my liver.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

 

SAM-e, PPC, Curcumin, and the newer stuff on pre & pro biotics and the "gut-liver axis" all have dozens of legitimate studies done by different groups all over the world.  

 

I also try to avoid over-doing it with too many supps at a time.  They may all have a minor benefit when taken individually, but no way to tell how they might interact.  3 or 4 proven supps is about as much as I want to take at one time.  

Edited by synesthesia, 25 December 2016 - 02:11 AM.

[D12A]

So, I just wanted to update on current regime. Here is what I tried: curcumin that you mentioned. The effect so far - zero. However, I accidently found posts about hepatotoxicity on steroids forums, these guys have lots of knowledge because they have to protect their livers from steroids. A specific cause of their elevated liver enzymes is a buildup of toxic bile or cholestasis of the liver. They guys use TUDCA compound to protect the liver, to remove toxic bile from the liver and hence prevent or reduce cholestasis. I am well-aware that not taking any toxic compounds is not that explored territory while taking TUDCA but I did it anyways, starting with only 1 capsule of 200mg a day after my most fat-heavy meal.

 

The effects were interesting. Firstly, there was a ton of activity in liver area, constant gurgling and weird noise for 2-3 hours after taking the capsule. First time I took it, I felt quite unwell and it lasted for 30 mins or so and then passed. My stool was darker but not the color I had when I was teenager. Also, it still was not in one piece.

 

I am honestly not sure if I should be continuing to take that thing. It surely as hell did something but I don't know side effects. Change in stool color could mean that more bile production was stimulated but it could also mean too much bile and something is blocking the normal bile flow from the liver into intestines, so tons of bile flowing will still show improvement in stool color but not necessarily reach it. I think, I might go for another ultrasound first, because if TUDCA dissolves stones, and I might have them or not, and if they become small enough to squeeze into bile duct, if it is blocked then there will be a lot more trouble than having a larger thing that cause no troubles.

 

Any thoughts on this? I will probably be getting MRI in January because last ultrasound in June shown completely cleat hepatic system but doctor said, ultrasound is not good way to determine is something of mechanical origin is blocking anything.

 

Here is a post from steroids users: https://www.reddit.c...hepatotoxicity/

[Dorian Grey]

I'm not familiar with TUDCA, but it seems to have some interesting properties.  

 

A blockage in any of your bile ducts should produce significant pain if you take anything (including fat) that stimulates bile flow.  This is why those with gallstones get painful gallbladder attacks after eating fatty meals.  

 

Ultrasound should show large stones well, and a gallbladder enlarged with bile if the duct is blocked.  Often there are smaller stones or thick muddy bile that can cause distress when bile flow is stimulated.  I expect this could cause an increase in symptoms during early treatment with bile stimulating supps, but flushing out the mud should result in better health eventually. 

 

I would avoid anything that caused ongoing distress once you've given it a fair chance to work, but it may take more than a few tries to properly clear out the plumbing.  

[normalizing]

my doctor in all his confusion just prescribed me ursodiol even though i didnt show a need for this med since it seems to be primary used for cirrhoisis and bile problems.

 

will see how it goes...

[D12A]

I'm not familiar with TUDCA, but it seems to have some interesting properties.  

 

A blockage in any of your bile ducts should produce significant pain if you take anything (including fat) that stimulates bile flow.  This is why those with gallstones get painful gallbladder attacks after eating fatty meals.  

 

Ultrasound should show large stones well, and a gallbladder enlarged with bile if the duct is blocked.  Often there are smaller stones or thick muddy bile that can cause distress when bile flow is stimulated.  I expect this could cause an increase in symptoms during early treatment with bile stimulating supps, but flushing out the mud should result in better health eventually. 

 

I would avoid anything that caused ongoing distress once you've given it a fair chance to work, but it may take more than a few tries to properly clear out the plumbing.  

 

I was wondering whether, you being knowledgeable, could write up a guide of what you are taking and being an older guy, how did it influence you over time? For instance, I learned about liver aids from you but I also saw you mentioning lowering iron levels and something about anti-oxidants like astaxanthin.

[Dorian Grey]

Thanks for the kind words D12A.  I've taken supplements all my life, & the most important lessons I've learned are to supplement only what's important for you as an individual and to avoid getting carried away with excessive doses and diversification.  

 

Multivitamins are quick & easy, but they always seem to contain some things I'd rather avoid, like folic acid, copper, calcium.  Some nutrients are also best taken on an empty stomach, and others with are better absorbed taken with food.  Vitamin-C for instance greatly increases absorption of dietary non-heme iron from iron fortified foods (which men don't want), and oil solubles like D & E are best absorbed with dietary fats in a meal.  

 

I take low dose Vitamin-C on an empty stomach twice a day (an hour before breakfast and dinner), and low dose B-Complex twice a day with meals.  I believe water solulbles like these are best taken in low doses twice a day to keep levels more stable over 24 hours.  

 

Vitamin-E is the most commonly deficient vitamin in the typical diet, but high doses of simple d-alpha tocopherol have been linked with an aggressive form of prostate cancer.  I found supplementing tocotrienols can help provide much of the protection tocopherols do, so this is my primary E family supplement.  I alternate this with low dose (200 IU) of natural Vitamin-E with mixed tocopherols every other day to fill in any gaps the tocotrienols may not provide.  More is not better when it comes to E, but this vitamin is simply too important to be deficient in throughout your life and a standard diet simply doesn't provide adequate amounts.  

 

I try to get Vitamin-D from sunlight during the Summer months, and a one hour full body sun-bath (around noon) once a month between May & August provides all the D you need during this time.  In the Fall/Winter, I take 2000 IU/day of D-3 to keep levels up during this time.  

 

Mineral supplementation, in my experience is simply unwise.  Most all typical diets provide all the trace minerals and calcium one needs.  Magnesium is my exception to this rule, as it is extremely important and the most common mineral deficiency.  Here again, more is not better, & I found some low dose Mag-Citrate pills (200mg) that I cut in half, taking 100mg/twice a day.  Too much mag can cause GI distress and loose bowels, but mag is something you don't want to be deficient in.  

 

Aside from these basics, there are a few exotic supps I have found that are simply too compelling to ignore.  These are: pre & pro biotics, curcumin, lecithin and IP6.  Probiotics are all the rage now, but finding one that actually survives stomach acid and colonizes well in the colon is difficult.  Taking 30 billion live cultures doesn't do you a bit of good if they are all killed by acid in the stomach.  I've found lactobacillus rhamnosus to be documented as best at surviving the acid test and actually colonizing well in the colon so I take this as a stand alone / single strain probiotic.  I feed existing bifidobacterium in my colon with an FOS (fructooligosaccharide) "pre-biotic".  A google search for: "Gut-Liver Axis" will provide a wealth of information on just how important pre & probiotics can be to liver health!  

 

Curcumin has an incredible ocean of evidence of remarkable properties against inflammation (particularly in the liver), and this is one exotic supp that has simply been too compelling to ignore.  I prefer "micronized" curcumin to the other enhanced absorption form which contains piperine, which modulates detoxification pathways in the liver.  Micronized Curcumin provides all the benefits, without affecting detoxification pathways.  

 

Choline is the liver's favorite nutrient, and Lecithin (phosphatidylcholine) provides the optimal form of choline the liver loves.  I take a highly refined form of lecithin known as PPC (polyenylphosphatidylcholine), brand names PhosChol or Essentiale Forte.  Dietary eggs will also provide ample lecithin and a simple generic lecithin supplement is also an option.  

 

Men (& post menopausal women) tend to accumulate iron as they age...  The liver is the primary storage site for excess iron, and excess iron has been well documented to contribute to liver inflammation.  The liver is Grand Central Station for metabolism of dietary fats and iron is a catalyst for lipid peroxidation.  Vegetable oils, which have largely replaced animal fats in the typical diet are particularly prone to oxidation and this may be why fatty liver disease has reached epidemic levels of late.  

 

As many countries now fortify flour and breakfast cereals with iron, ferrotoxic disease may well be one of the greatest contributing factors for chronic illness and disease (liver disease in particular) in the 21st Century.  Combating iron accumulation and resulting inflammation can be difficult, as the body has no way to excrete excess iron.  Blood donation is the only effective way to eliminate iron accumulation, but there are supplements that can help ameliorate the problem.  IP6 (Inositol Hexaphosphate), when taken on an empty stomach with plain water is rapidly absorbed, and has a unique property of binding free/labile iron in the body for excretion through the urinary tract.  A google search for: "labile iron pool" will provide more information on how free iron contributes to inflammation, and logically, controlling this through IP6 should be remarkably helpful at combating inflammatory free iron.  Curcumin & Quercetin have also been well documented at helping mop-up free iron, and this may well be at the heart of how they control inflammation.  

 

The Health-e-Iron site has a small ocean of studies documenting just how seriously excess iron can effect health and longevity.  

 

http://www.healtheir...science-library

 

I've been so impressed by this research, I've taken to keeping my ferritin (stored iron) level down near 50 through blood donation, and also supplementing the above mentioned iron chelators to clean up free/labile iron. At 60 years of age, I have escaped all chronic disease despite my poor diet, drinking, smoking and lack of exercise, and my inflammation markers (liver enzymes, A1C, GGT) are all remarkably good. I truly believe proper iron homeostasis will turn out to be a top tier therapy for maintaining optimal health through controlling inflammation in the fullness of time.  

 

My spiffy new avatar is actually the picture of Dorian Gray, and sometimes I feel after all my poor old body had been through, that I am becoming him.  

Edited by synesthesia, 26 December 2016 - 07:22 PM.

[normalizing]

i must add like the other person who mentioned this, curcumin doesnt seem to do anything noticeable for me either. ive switched to micelle form of curcumin which claims 168x better longer absorption and went from 1-2 liquid gels to 4 with nothing noticeable still. im becoming skeptical now...

[D12A]

Thanks for iron, ferrotoxic disease may well be one of the greatest contributing factors for chronic illness and disease (liver disease in particular) in the 21st Century.  Combating iron accumulation and resulting inflammation can be difficult, as the body has no way to excrete excess iron.  Blood donation is the only effective way to eliminate iron accumulation, but there are supplements that can help ameliorate the problem.  IP6 (Inositol Hexaphosphate), when taken on an empty stomach with plain water is rapidly absorbed, and has a unique property of binding free/labile iron in the body for excretion through the urinary tract.  A google search for: "labile iron pool" will provide more information on how free iron contributes to inflammation, and logically, controlling this through IP6 should be remarkably helpful at combating inflammatory free iron.  Curcumin & Quercetin have also been well documented at helping mop-up free iron, and this may well be at the heart of how they control inflammation.  

 

The Health-e-Iron site has a small ocean of studies documenting just how seriously excess iron can effect health and longevity.  

 

http://www.healtheir...science-library

 

I've been so impressed by this research, I've taken to keeping my ferritin (stored iron) level down near 50 through blood donation, and also supplementing the above mentioned iron chelators to clean up free/labile iron. At 60 years of age, I have escaped all chronic disease despite my poor diet, drinking, smoking and lack of exercise, and my inflammation markers (liver enzymes, A1C, GGT) are all remarkably good. I truly believe proper iron homeostasis will turn out to be a top tier therapy for maintaining optimal health through controlling inflammation in the fullness of time.  

 

My spiffy new avatar is actually the picture of Dorian Gray, and sometimes I feel after all my poor old body had been through, that I am becoming him.  

 

Much appreciated. Happy New Year for you. My blood tests shown that my ferritin is around 90. I also was told by a doctor to lay off red meat because my hemoglobin is somewhat too high. Have you seen this article? http://freetheanimal...everything.html

 

It's about food enrichment and iron. I'm wondering whether my skin issues could be due to iron accumulation because having tried many different dietary changes, I never really laid off the meat in high quantities. 

[Dorian Grey]

Love Nikoley's blog post on the evils of iron fortification.  The "Iron Hypothesis" of aging and disease seems to be gaining momentum over the past year or so.  It's unfortunate there isn't a better way to resolve this other than bloodletting.  

 

Ferritin shouldn't be symptomatic at 90, but stored iron does tend to go only one direction in males as they age and that is UP!  

 

The best way I know of to tell if iron is contributing to inflammation is to try some chelators (IP6, Curcumin, Quercetin) for 30 days or so.  If you notice a substantial improvement, then iron reduction through bloodletting may be the bigger, permanent fix.  The GGT blood lab is the most sensitive marker for liver inflammation, so this might be a good way to monitor your progress.  

 

A single blood donation should drop your ferritin by 30-50 points or so and this would bring you right into the sweet spot around 50.  

[RWhigham]

Bergamont extract cures nonalcoholic fatty liver disease http://www.longecity...ldl-management/ post #5

Study 3 (on rats):

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26025327 "Bergamot polyphenol fraction (BPF) prevents nonalcoholic fatty liver disease via stimulation of lipophagy in cafeteria diet-induced rat model of metabolic syndrome." J Nutr Biochem. 2015

 

This study used a rat model of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD). "BPF strongly reduced hepatic steatosis as documented by a significant decrease in total lipid content (-41.3% ± 12%)  "This study demonstrates that the liver and its lipid metabolism are the main targets of bergamot flavonoids, supporting the concept that supplementation of BPF is an effective strategy to prevent NAFLD." There was a dramatic reduction in the cellular lipid droplets (LDs), likely from increased lipophagy.

Caveat: Bergamont extract in additon to it's other properties causes statin-like inhibition of the HMG-CoA pathway in the liver. This pathway produces cholesterol and CoQ10. I would always supplement with CoQ10 when taking bergamont or a statin.

Edited by RWhigham, 03 January 2017 - 01:08 AM.

[normalizing]

this is new interesting study about PQQ and liver health; http://www.medicalne...cles/315073.php

[joelcairo]

Spoiler alert about the preceding study: PQQ = good.

 

Luckily "PQQ is naturally found in soil, interstellar dust, and human breast milk." I get plenty of all three, so I think I'm covered.

 

[Dorian Grey]

Regarding the more exotic liver tonics with a mention or two in PubMed; I would caution that when treating a sick liver, a kitchen sink approach of a half dozen or more supps may be counterproductive.  A sick liver may not do well with polypharmacy, so I would focus on no more than one or two exotic supps at a time; preferably with a dozen or more impressive reports in PubMed.  

 

Homework is essential when treating a sick liver with supplements, & more isn't always better!  Try to find out exactly what your problem is, and treat it with the appropriate nutraceutical (perhaps two).  I haven't seen anything that can compare with the literature on S-adenosylmethionine or PPC (polyenylphosphatidylcholine).  I've taken both of these for nearly a decade and have had great results.  Normal ALT, AST, ALP & GGT, despite daily alcohol consumption for 40 years.  The proof is in the pudding!  

Edited by synesthesia, 09 January 2017 - 06:42 AM.

[D12A]

Reporting here again.

 

My doctor consulted with a bunch of gastro doctors and according to them, it is possible for my ALP to be normal at that state for me. It is out of range but happens to a bunch of people apparently. I was prescribed a bunch of more blood tests by them from hepatitis to some kind of antibodies against liver to truly make sure there is nothing wrong. Now, I will continue taking recommended products and see where it will lead but experts think I am fine so whatever I guess...

 

Having looked at curcumin I found that it is turmeric ingredient. Lots of people are using it daily to reduce body inflammation and it especially helps people with arthritis symptoms. Hence, I ordered a big bag and will take it daily with black pepper. I saw some topics on it on this site. Some people love it, for others it does not do anything. I'm still interested in whether I can bring the ALP down to normal range and will re-test the values a month from now. Currently, it is TUDCA(which has effect nothing else had, I wrote about it before in this thread), curcumin and will add bunch of turmeric in the coming days.

 

synesthesia, thanks a bunch for taking time to write up your experiences and share interesting links to what you believe to be important.

[normalizing]

D12A, can you please elaborate further on TUDCA as whats positive about taking it, noticeably? and did you find it online somewhere, i asked local health stores about it, nobody even heard of it. seems hard to find, and i bet its expensive being so obscure :s

[D12A]

D12A, can you please elaborate further on TUDCA as whats positive about taking it, noticeably? and did you find it online somewhere, i asked local health stores about it, nobody even heard of it. seems hard to find, and i bet its expensive being so obscure :s

 

TUDCA is incredibly popular among bodybuilders who take steroids that are toxic to the liver. TUDCA is one of the best ways to prevent liver enzymes to go out of whack. It's purpose is to prevent cholestasis of the liver, aka impaired bile flow or lack of it due to liver damage. It basically is touted to prevent damage from occurring in the first place.

 

You can find a lot of info on it on Examine dot com website.

 

My experiences so far: it truly makes liver plumbing switch on. You can feel everything moving in liver region, lots of gurgling and other activities. My stool turned completely brown, even too brown to be honest. I am mostly taking it to see what effect it will have on ALP values after a month or so.

 

I'm in UK so, TUDCA dot com sells this stuff. It is very expensive but I only take a capsule a day and see if it takes me anywhere. In USA, I think Powder City is amazingly cheap option usually but you'd need to cap this stuff yourself because it is absolutely disgusting, at least from people reviews on the website.

[normalizing]

i see. ok thanks.

i just did another check on my liver enzymes and they are still abnormal. i might have to try something at this point. suprisingly, my cholesterol levels are extremely high. they were 150 a year ago, just a month ago 244, and now 280. wtf is going on? my doctor explanation is, because liver has problems dealing with cholesterol, it builds up. so would logically anything that helps the liver also help lower those high cholesterol numbers down?

[pamojja]

my doctor explanation is, because liver has problems dealing with cholesterol, it builds up. so would logically anything that helps the liver also help lower those high cholesterol numbers down?

 

That's my experience too. Whenever liver enzymes were rising even bit, cholesterol numbers followed up.
 

[matisvijs]

Might want to add vitamin E to your stack: http://www.longecity...ver-protective/

And drink more coffee: http://www.longecity...se/#entry802043

[normalizing]

been taking vitamin e for ages, it seems it didnt really prevent liver problems to occur but maybe it made them less severe? i can only speculate.

 

i used to drink tons of coffee too but i quit because of caffeine which made me feel sick. again, i been drinking coffee the whole of last year when problems showed up at the end of the year, and it seems obvious it didnt prevent liver disease but again maybe it slowed it down?

[normalizing]

D12A how are you doing? are yous still taking TUDCA and anything else you notice from using it? I just got mine recently and i think it might be spoiled, it smells like benzene. is the original smell that bad or is it just mine :/

[RWhigham]

i see. ok thanks.

i just did another check on my liver enzymes and they are still abnormal. i might have to try something at this point. suprisingly, my cholesterol levels are extremely high. they were 150 a year ago, just a month ago 244, and now 280. wtf is going on? my doctor explanation is, because liver has problems dealing with cholesterol, it builds up. so would logically anything that helps the liver also help lower those high cholesterol numbers down?

Pantethine lowers triglycerides and LDL cholesterol, and raises HDL cholesterol. It also heals fatty liver disease.

 

The effects of pantethine on fatty liver and fat distribution  "In this study, 600 mg/day of pantethine was administered to 16 outpatients with fatty liver and hypertriglyceridemia for six months or longer to examine whether the drug improved fatty liver using abdominal plain computed tomography (CT). Nine of the 16-pantethine patients were no longer diagnosed as having fatty liver after the study period."

 

The CT scan showed visceral fat was reduced and subcutaneous fat increased, as if pantethine moved fat from viscera to skin.

[D12A]

D12A how are you doing? are yous still taking TUDCA and anything else you notice from using it? I just got mine recently and i think it might be spoiled, it smells like benzene. is the original smell that bad or is it just mine :/

 

No idea about the smell, mine is a small bag of 100 capsules. I'm pretty sure that this stuff would taste and smell vile because it is bile acid.

Nothing special, I'd say it keeps things moving but I also refuse to take it every day. I went on to become really busy and when I remember taking

this stuff then I do.

 

Also, I'd like you to consider another option, idk if it will help but stop obsessing over health so much. Keep yourself busy and try to enjoy life.

I found that this helped more than any pill I took. Researching health and what's wrong with you is extremely unhealthy for you. My doctor reached

the dead end with my liver enzymes and I decided that bunch of gastro doctors and GPs might be right and there is nothing wrong with me. Since then,

I felt a lot better.

 

You should be working on finding out whether it's anything but trust medical doctors and don't obsess too much.

[normalizing]

hi i wanted to post this new study that shows tomatoes help prevent liver damage from alcohol; http://www.medicalne...cles/319345.php

[MikeDC]

Alchohol needs NAD+ inside cells to convert. So alchohol depletes NAD+ in cells. Exercise after drinking alcohol is very bad for the body.

NAD+ precursors should be taken when drinking alcohol. It will prevent fatty liver disease.