100 replies to this topic

[Baten]

Enclomiphene, huh? I supppose this drug is related to Clomiphene? Toremifene?

[zompy]

Wondering: Which of these supplements in your stack matter most you think? Which ones make the most difference? 

[Baten]

 

Using Morinda Officinalis (Ba Ji Tian) extract 2g a day, since this topic got me interested.

 

So far I notice no real effects, sure I feel all right but I'm not noticing some testosterone boost or spike or anything. Seems to be a mild effect, if there is any.

Thanks for the info, saves me buying it, but please try a very high dose just to be sure. 
 

 

 

I upped the dose since your post. This past week I've noticed really great exercise quality and endurance, could be coincidence but I really seem at my peak these days. Moringa does seem like a great tonic. Testosterone/hormonal boost might not be the biggest if there is such an effect, but it seems an all right exercise enhancing tonic, in the ball park of bulbine natalensis (but without the digestion issues of that last one).

[GreenmachineX]

I'm puzzled by your inclusion of DHT. The enzyme (5-alpha-reductase) converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Higher DHT levels in hair follicles is a primary cause of male pattern baldness and stimulates proliferation of prostate tissue (leading to BPH). Many men use saw palmetto and nettle to minimize DHT.

Aromatase inhibitors like apigenin and chrysin prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Somewhat anti-intuitively, progesterone cream for mean also inhibits conversion to to estrogen.

Only those who are going to lose their hair anyway due to DHT have anything to worry about. Unless you have MPB due to DHT, you have nothing to worry about.

Everything the op said about DHT is true.

Masteron, which is a DHT derived steroid binds to SHBG which allows for more free testosterone.

Also, it will help to some extent to prevent testosterone from converting to estrogen.

DHT is important.

It's no coincidence that some men who take propecia and Avodart get ED.

DHT will increase a man's libido.

DHT will harden skeletal muscle giving a good luck to people with lower body fat.

DHT isn't a big bad boogeyman.

I have done cycles with DHT based steroids and have gotten nothing but good results, no MPB, no rise in prostate levels, and no ill effects of any kind. I'm middle aged and therefore more prone to issues with the prostate and MPB than a younger man in his 20s.

DHT based steroids are widely used in the bodybuilding community and there is rampant outbreak of MPB in bodybuilders. No more so than an average sample of the general community.

So how do we maximize DHT other than explicitly illegal substances?

[Rocket]

If you increase your testosterone then by default you will increase DHT. But by doing so your estrogen will increase, so you have to take things like adex to block T's conversion. If anyone starts playing with their hormones, you have to do your homework and be responsible about it. (Personally I'm fine with breaking unjust laws)

[jacobjerondin]

Any more reports/experiences with Morinda Officinalis? It seems terribly underappreciated in that no one seems to know about it but chung_pao's report was quite promising. Unfortunately, it seems like he's not active anymore so I'm hoping some other people can explain whether it's worth it and safe.

[XenMan]

This is without tests, based on how I felt and libido. Importantly, on published peer reviewed papers.

 

I started at 34 with LE Soy Isoflavones as an anti-aromatase (reduces conversion of free testosterone to estrogen) and pregnenolone as a precursor to DHEA; which is still troublesome and illegal to import into Australia. It was awesome and I started at 50 mg of pregnenolone and increased to 200 mg at around 46 years of age, which shows the drop off of testosterone over that period. I added DHEA when I could get it, but found pregnenolone was more sustained. DHEA and pregnenolone alone is not as effective as you still have the estrogen conversion problem.

 

I stopped using the soy isoflavones due to the recently established link to cognitive decline in old age and tofu. No one knows if it extends to all soy products, but high concentrations of a soy product is too much a risk for me.

 

Another point of interest is that I did a pro-hormone cycle and DHEA doesn’t work anymore, but other stuff does; could be age, but more than likely I broke something.

 

I recently did a big research session on changing my hormone modulation, and a replacement for LE’s Saw Palmetto which was essential for my prostate, but also ridiculously expensive.

 

I found the following to have good anti-aromatase properties, but also all round T boosting:

 

Shilajit (Primavie only) – also good with COQ10 as it reduces COQ10 breakdown

Ashwagandha (KSM66 only)

Kelp – Good to boost metabolism as well

Boron – Track down ‘Nothing boring about boron’ paper; a good read.

Mangosteen – good for my prostate

HIIT – twice a week is enough, so many papers on its benefits

T Booster herbs – I used to get a good response from these but that has also been broken, the same as DHEA. Ingredients are Tribulus Territras, Avena Sativa, and Fenugreek. I just use it once a week on gym days.

 

Because these are modulators, providing precursors and anti-aromatase, you don’t need to cycle and can run them for years until you get less of a kick due to your own natural levels dropping.

 

This is where some would advocate hormone replacement. The issue is that if you have to go on a holiday and can’t access you HRT bad things will happen due to suppression, if you are using modulators you just feel your age.

 

I feel a ‘good normal’ every day, not my age. NMN, COQ10 and hormone modulation is pretty much 90% of the best you can do with just supplements for healthspan and not feeling your age.

 

[John250]

This is without tests, based on how I felt and libido. Importantly, on published peer reviewed papers.

I started at 34 with LE Soy Isoflavones as an anti-aromatase (reduces conversion of free testosterone to estrogen) and pregnenolone as a precursor to DHEA; which is still troublesome and illegal to import into Australia. It was awesome and I started at 50 mg of pregnenolone and increased to 200 mg at around 46 years of age, which shows the drop off of testosterone over that period. I added DHEA when I could get it, but found pregnenolone was more sustained. DHEA and pregnenolone alone is not as effective as you still have the estrogen conversion problem.

I stopped using the soy isoflavones due to the recently established link to cognitive decline in old age and tofu. No one knows if it extends to all soy products, but high concentrations of a soy product is too much a risk for me.

Another point of interest is that I did a pro-hormone cycle and DHEA doesn’t work anymore, but other stuff does; could be age, but more than likely I broke something.

I recently did a big research session on changing my hormone modulation, and a replacement for LE’s Saw Palmetto which was essential for my prostate, but also ridiculously expensive.

I found the following to have good anti-aromatase properties, but also all round T boosting:

Shilajit (Primavie only) – also good with COQ10 as it reduces COQ10 breakdown
Ashwagandha (KSM66 only)
Kelp – Good to boost metabolism as well
Boron – Track down ‘Nothing boring about boron’ paper; a good read.
Mangosteen – good for my prostate
HIIT – twice a week is enough, so many papers on its benefits
T Booster herbs – I used to get a good response from these but that has also been broken, the same as DHEA. Ingredients are Tribulus Territras, Avena Sativa, and Fenugreek. I just use it once a week on gym days.

Because these are modulators, providing precursors and anti-aromatase, you don’t need to cycle and can run them for years until you get less of a kick due to your own natural levels dropping.

This is where some would advocate hormone replacement. The issue is that if you have to go on a holiday and can’t access you HRT bad things will happen due to suppression, if you are using modulators you just feel your age.

I feel a ‘good normal’ every day, not my age. NMN, COQ10 and hormone modulation is pretty much 90% of the best you can do with just supplements for healthspan and not feeling your age.

If you have an HRT script you can bring it with you on the plane if you go away from a holiday. At 46 you may need HRT.

[pamojja]

How likely is it to have low free testosterone but normal-high total testosterone? My total test was 904 ng/dL but as I understand it only free test matters. 

 

Likely. But with no guarantee.
 

That's how my free Testosterone correlated with total, estrogen and SHBG over the years:

year  | free T.  | total T. |  E2   | SHBG
range | 8.7-54.7 | 300-1000 | 12-34 | 18-54

2010  |          |   400    |  51   |
2011  |          |   220    | <10   |
2012  |   5.4    |   252    |  23   | 
2013  |          |   320    |       |
2014  |   4.9    |   340    |  32   |  53
2015  |   5.9    |   351    |  21   |  57
2016  |   9.3    |   468    |  46   |  77
2017  |   8.5    |   631    |  17   | 115
2018  |   9.7    |   681    |  44   |  69

[John250]

Likely. But with no guarantee.

That's how my free Testosterone correlated with total, estrogen and SHBG over the years:

year  | free T.  | total T. |  E2   | SHBG
range | 8.7-54.7 | 300-1000 | 12-34 | 18-54

2010  |          |   400    |  51   |
2011  |          |   220    | <10   |
2012  |   5.4    |   252    |  23   | 
2013  |          |   320    |       |
2014  |   4.9    |   340    |  32   |  53
2015  |   5.9    |   351    |  21   |  57
2016  |   9.3    |   468    |  46   |  77
2017  |   8.5    |   631    |  17   | 115
2018  |   9.7    |   681    |  44   |  69

Are you in HRT? Your body isn’t utilizing your total testosterone into free testosterone. This is why your total test is at 68% but free test is only 17%. When you don’t utilize total test you will aromatize more which is why your estrogen is high.

[pamojja]

HRT isn't available where I live, unless continuously below 200 for total, or similar with free. Just when I would have been prescribed because of below normal free T. it jumped in the normal range. So no HRT.

[poonja]

70 years old and used clomid 12.5 mg per eod for a few  years and last test was over 600.  Have recently changed to eclomephene at 12.5 mg eod but have not yet tested.  

[pamojja]

 

How likely is it to have low free testosterone but normal-high total testosterone? My total test was 904 ng/dL but as I understand it only free test matters.

Likely. But with no guarantee.

 

Upps, my mistake. Wanted to say: very likely correlated..

[XenMan]

At 46 you may need HRT.

 

At 50 feeling as good as I ever have, this stack should last another 10 years with some tweaking.

 

Also my T is too high for HRT, laws changed years ago after too many HRT clinics appeared and T replacement was pushed as the answer to everything by dodgy clinics.

 

Maybe around 80...if I make that far.

[John250]

At 50 feeling as good as I ever have, this stack should last another 10 years with some tweaking.

Also my T is too high for HRT, laws changed years ago after too many HRT clinics appeared and T replacement was pushed as the answer to everything by dodgy clinics.

Maybe around 80...if I make that far.

Well definitely go as long as you want without it as long as your feeling good. However if you do want to use HRT and your levels are too high for it you can use a fast acting testosterone for a few weeks and then abruptly stop and get tested a few weeks later. Levels will be extremely low.

[XenMan]

Well definitely go as long as you want without it as long as your feeling good. However if you do want to use HRT and your levels are too high for it you can use a fast acting testosterone for a few weeks and then abruptly stop and get tested a few weeks later. Levels will be extremely low.

 

Yes, this method did cross my mind.

 

I don't have easy access to roids and wouldn't touch the rubbish circulating around, but I have thought about this with pro-hormones. You would need a stupid or friendly doctor as I don't look like I have low levels.

[Bushi84]

So how do we maximize DHT other than explicitly illegal substances?

 

Creatine raises your DHT

And thats why i don't take it anymore, cause it accelerates my hairloss. Other than that great product, cheap, great effect on your body, except if you got the tendency to lose your hair.

 

http://www.ergo-log.com/creadht.html

Edited by Bushi84, 23 August 2018 - 06:12 PM.

[XenMan]

And thats why i don't take it anymore, cause it accelerates my hairloss. Other than that great product, cheap, great effect on your body, except if you got the tendency to lose your hair.

 

 

It is life's cruel joke that there is no consistency for hair loss. Check the specialist forums and nothing works for everyone.

 

I had a sudden small number regrowth all over after adding COQ10 and shilajit, yet NMN and decreasing creatine did nothing; which has worked for others.

 

After years of creatine use I have cut it down to pre and post workout only and haven't noticed any loss of strength, bulk or the best indicator of T, a drop in libido..

[John250]

I use nizoral(ketoconazole) 2% shampoo 3x/wk and found it does not regrow hair but really helps prevent any further loss. You have to really lather it in and let it sit for five minutes before rinsing. The 1% is worthless it has to be the 2% you can find it on ebay.

[chipdouglas]

Creatine raises your DHT

And thats why i don't take it anymore, cause it accelerates my hairloss. Other than that great product, cheap, great effect on your body, except if you got the tendency to lose your hair.

 

http://www.ergo-log.com/creadht.html

 

Creatine doesn't increase testosterone : https://examine.com/...e-testosterone/

[Bushi84]

It is life's cruel joke that there is no consistency for hair loss. Check the specialist forums and nothing works for everyone.

 

I had a sudden small number regrowth all over after adding COQ10 and shilajit, yet NMN and decreasing creatine did nothing; which has worked for others.

 

After years of creatine use I have cut it down to pre and post workout only and haven't noticed any loss of strength, bulk or the best indicator of T, a drop in libido..

 

Well there are a few things coming.I usually check 'insert our problem'talk.com -> new research (don't know if we can name the site.

 

Do you use regular Q10? Cause it's bio-availability is very poor. I use ubiquinol, which has a much higher bio-availability. But to be honest doesn't do much for the hair, I think. 

Never heard of shilajit and MNM before. 

 

So you still use creatine than, but only when you workout? 

[Bushi84]

I use nizoral(ketoconazole) 2% shampoo 3x/wk and found it does not regrow hair but really helps prevent any further loss. You have to really lather it in and let it sit for five minutes before rinsing. The 1% is worthless it has to be the 2% you can find it on ebay.

 

It helps, but it doesn't really prevent further loss in my case.

 

Creatine doesn't increase testosterone : https://examine.com/...e-testosterone/

 

Those studies don't mean much. Like it says in the beginning when you take creatine you can lift heavier weights, heavier weights result in more T. Yet they don't have a test with people who workout with weights.

They have a test with runners. Creatine isn't used for endurance, but for short bursts of power. Jogging for a long period actually decreases T. 

[Bushi84]

Don't know if you guys mentioned it before, but I posted it in another topic. 

 

But Royal Jelly raises T:

http://www.ergo-log....20-percent.html

 

https://nutritionj.b...1475-2891-11-77

[chipdouglas]

It helps, but it doesn't really prevent further loss in my case.

 

 

Those studies don't mean much. Like it says in the beginning when you take creatine you can lift heavier weights, heavier weights result in more T. Yet they don't have a test with people who workout with weights.

They have a test with runners. Creatine isn't used for endurance, but for short bursts of power. Jogging for a long period actually decreases T. 

 

So, Kamal Patel, MBA, MPH, PhD© wasted everyone's time by posting irrelevant studies. 

[John250]

Don't know if you guys mentioned it before, but I posted it in another topic.

But Royal Jelly raises T:
http://www.ergo-log....20-percent.html

https://nutritionj.b...1475-2891-11-77

Same with Pine Pollen

https://examine.com/...ts/pine-pollen/

[Rocket]

Has clomid been mentioned? I am not an expert like John, but I would think 3 smallish doses a week would really have potential.

This question is for John: what about a micro dose of triptorelin? Less than what people use for T restart.

Edited by Rocket, 25 August 2018 - 12:22 AM.

[John250]

Has clomid been mentioned? I am not an expert like John, but I would think 3 smallish doses a week would really have potential.

This question is for John: what about a micro dose of triptorelin? Less than what people use for T restart.

Clomid will definitely increase testosterone but it will significantly increase estrogen is well. I actually don’t know much about Triptorelin as I never researched it since I am on HRT and have no need to recover natural levels.

[XenMan]

Do you use regular Q10? Cause it's bio-availability is very poor. I use ubiquinol, which has a much higher bio-availability. But to be honest doesn't do much for the hair, I think. 

Never heard of shilajit and MNM before. 

 

So you still use creatine than, but only when you workout? 

 

After using a large amount of supps pre and post workout I'm having a bit of a break from most of them due to losing 'big-itis' and having more important things to focus on.

 

I'm also doing a needed cut, so you always lose muscle which can be built later. I add creatine pre and post for no other reason than it is there, I make no claims on the value of doing so.

 

There is a good NCBI paper on COQ10 and shilajit together. I use the normal COQ10 twice daily and PPQ on occasions as a boost. At 50 I just need a top up of COQ10, but certainly when I get older I will look at ubiquinol.

 

It could be one or the other, or both, or even unrelated, to the extra follicles seen. Other forums have random improvement from COQ10, but nothing consistent.

 

NMN is all over here under NAD+, it is a precursor that drops as you get older and if replaced the body continues to make previous NAD+ levels. There are differing views on how to take it, I have said my bit and have nothing else to offer.

[John250]

After using a large amount of supps pre and post workout I'm having a bit of a break from most of them due to losing 'big-itis' and having more important things to focus on.

I'm also doing a needed cut, so you always lose muscle which can be built later. I add creatine pre and post for no other reason than it is there, I make no claims on the value of doing so.

There is a good NCBI paper on COQ10 and shilajit together. I use the normal COQ10 twice daily and PPQ on occasions as a boost. At 50 I just need a top up of COQ10, but certainly when I get older I will look at ubiquinol.

It could be one or the other, or both, or even unrelated, to the extra follicles seen. Other forums have random improvement from COQ10, but nothing consistent.

NMN is all over here under NAD+, it is a precursor that drops as you get older and if replaced the body continues to make previous NAD+ levels. There are differing views on how to take it, I have said my bit and have nothing else to offer.

You don’t have to lose muscle during a cut. Keep protein at 1g/lb body weight and get enough health fats to keep hormones up to par and you can shed fat while preserving muscle easily.

[baccheion]

What about regular topical pregnenolone + DHEA (5 mg : 5 mg; up to 3x/day)? Androgenicity:estrogenicity via percutaneous administration is 10:1 (versus 2:1 when done orally). There's also milligram amounts of iodine (with 200 mcg L-selenomethionine to protect the thyroid), boron, vitamin K2 MK-4 (+ vitamin D3), magnesium, forskolin, shilajit, etc. And a good multivitamin.

Edited by baccheion, 27 August 2018 - 06:29 AM.