100 replies to this topic

[chung_pao]

1) Increase it directly by stimulating production:

I've also been experimenting with this for very long (years).

Most effective method found so far:

Daily:
Wake up.
In a fasted state:
*Use coffee or pu erh/green tea (for PDE inhibition and increasing cAMP, basically to potentiate the following drug and all other stimuli).
*Add Morinda Officinalis. High dose.

Morinda is THE strongest T booster I've come across. And I've tried all of them.

What is seems to do is directly stimulate LH production, or something similar.

Used with PDE inhibition and in a fasted state, the effect was like nothing I've ever felt.

And I wrote "high dose" because the effect is dose-dependent, and I did not experience any side effects at higher doses.

Effects of Morinda officinalis:
Stimulated t production and cAMP increase in general.
Stronger kidneys, bones and tendons.
The entire system seems to benefit.

But I may be wrong about "no side effects". Remains to be seen. What I'm not wrong about are the positive effects.

[chung_pao]

And what's more: the effects seem to accumulate. Used daily, it did not gradually lose effect.

It goes by the names:
Morinda Officinalis. Ba Ji Tian. Ba Ji. 巴戟(天)。

The best source would be fresh whole herb or buying an extract from a TCM store.

[Baten]

Hi chung_pao

 

Could you share where you buy your Morinda?

[chung_pao]

I bought it at various TCM stores in Taiwan.
But I guess online stores might be just as good.

Just make sure it's Morinda officinalis. Not citrifolia.

I just placed an order with this store:
http://1stchineseher...h_query=morinda

I recommend using whole herbs when possible.
Because that's how it has been used for thousands of years.
But extracts also work.

[plainzero]

Do you have blood work to back up this morinda officinalis claim?

[yucca06]

What's a "high dose" of this, for you ?

[chung_pao]

No blood tests. Doctor won't take them without a medical problem.

High dose: nothing extreme.
Using whole herb: 10g per time. Carefully increasing when judged safe to do so.

[chung_pao]

If used in a fasted state, preferably with a pde inhibitor, much lower doses would be required.

I'd wager a 10g decoction of the herb would be safe for most people without significant medical problems.

Upon experimenting with this I still don't understand why it hasn't been more researched. The effects are significant, similar to Forskolin but of a different nature (safer, more potent, goes well with caffeine, more sustainable).

http://www.asiaandro...682x/10/937.htm
"The improvement in both appetitive and consummatory components of sexual behavior observed in male rats treated with the extract could be ascribed to increased serum T level in parallel with the activation of the central dopaminergic system. "

Can't give a lot of references. Morinda has mainly been researched for joint problems.

Founder and main writer of examine.com gives Morinda and other similar, underresearched herbs some credit:
http://www.silverhyd...upplementation/
"Chinese Herbs: Not shit, possibly even better than Western Supplementation."
"Research on them is preliminary, but it is ALL COMING BACK POSITIVE. I haven’t seen a study stating that a herb used in the traditional manner was ineffective at its traditional claims yet. "

The traditional uses of Morinda is for male fertility and strengthening joints/bones. And it works.

Edited by chung_pao, 16 January 2017 - 07:17 PM.

[yucca06]

I'm fasting ed (16h -> no breakfast on morning) and drink coffee, so it's ok to try it for me...

This particular extract is 5:1 (cheaper than your chinese link) : https://www.amazon.c...nda officinalis

...so 2g would equal 10g whole herb. 50days with 1 bottle, very nice if really effective...

 

At $50 shipping included, the cost would be about $30/month.

Edited by yucca06, 16 January 2017 - 07:23 PM.

[chung_pao]

Extracts work just as well. They just require more carefulness.

IMO, what was particular about Morinda was: Potency of the effects, absence of side effects with increasing dosages, and seemingly no suppression of appetite (common effects of tcm herbs is that they activate ampk or inhibit pi3k/mtor a lot, morinda did not.).
And of course, how amazing it felt.
It also seemed to make other people react more positively to me, esp women. But this could obviously be placebo.

Anyhow, to replicate what I experienced:

In a fasted state, use coffee or tea as a pde inhibitor. The use Morinda officinalis at 10g raw herb as a decoction or extract of equivalent amounts.
Afterwards, I'd continue fasting until lunch and go about my day.

Just make it a morning habit.

[aconita]

Price for morinda is outrageous, nandrolone would be cheaper by far even on the black market. 

 

....and the bloody thing grows only in tropical climate, can't even grow your own....(

[Hyperflux]

Should boron be taken with a fatty meal? The study that shows that it raised FT and lowered E said that participants ate breakfast with it.

[matisvijs]

Should boron be taken with a fatty meal? The study that shows that it raised FT and lowered E said that participants ate breakfast with it.

I'd personally only take it with an AI. Don't think the reason it lowered E levels in that study is due to taking it with food.

Edited by matisvijs, 17 January 2017 - 05:08 AM.

[TerryFirmer]

And what's more: the effects seem to accumulate. Used daily, it did not gradually lose effect.

It goes by the names:
Morinda Officinalis. Ba Ji Tian. Ba Ji. 巴戟(天)。

The best source would be fresh whole herb or buying an extract from a TCM store.

 

I easily found some in a TCM store here in Malaysia. As cheap as chips at about $7 for 100g of dried root.

 

Trouble is, I don't know the best way to consume it. Chewing the dried root is possible but there's a very coarse bunch of fibres running through the centre of the root that just won't break down with chewing - tough as old leather bootlaces. I soaked it in water for an hour but that just softened the outer part, not the fibrous core.

 

Also I don't know how much would qualify as a high dose. Chung_pao mentioned 10g but presumably that was for fresh root? How would that convert to dried weight?

[chung_pao]

And what's more: the effects seem to accumulate. Used daily, it did not gradually lose effect.

It goes by the names:
Morinda Officinalis. Ba Ji Tian. Ba Ji. 巴戟(天)。

The best source would be fresh whole herb or buying an extract from a TCM store.

I easily found some in a TCM store here in Malaysia. As cheap as chips at about $7 for 100g of dried root.

Trouble is, I don't know the best way to consume it. Chewing the dried root is possible but there's a very coarse bunch of fibres running through the centre of the root that just won't break down with chewing - tough as old leather bootlaces. I soaked it in water for an hour but that just softened the outer part, not the fibrous core.

Also I don't know how much would qualify as a high dose. Chung_pao mentioned 10g but presumably that was for fresh root? How would that convert to dried weight?

Just decoct it? Using a french press and boiled water, and making sure the resulting "tea" is filtered.

Don't know about the equivalent weight of 10g in dried root. But test small and increase cautiously. As long as it's not a powder and you can safely identify it as Morinda Officinalis then it should be safe.

Or just ask the guy in the store?
"怎么吃? 可以泡茶吗"?

Edited by chung_pao, 18 January 2017 - 01:39 PM.

[Oakman]

Hello Everyone,

I am keen to know what you think of the "All in one" Free T boosters from nutrition companies?
Found these on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.c...a_bf2EybSEBYC7A

https://www.amazon.c...a_hi2EybBEB6F6G

I just don't want add a new stack and hence an "All in one" would be great.

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

 

In your quest you might like to try this whilst searching for these (or any) type of supplement on Amazon. First, use/install Chrome browser, then add "Fakespot" extension to Chrome. Fakespot analyzes all the reviews for a product listing and who writes them, then gives a "Grade" for how authentic the rating are and why. For example, for the two you list, Fakespot gives a resounding "F", and "F", respectively. It's not gospel, certainly not perfect, as even a good product can have a vendor who compiles fake reviews, but you know the old saying, "Where there's smoke, ....".

 

Beyond that, the only supplement of this type I've ever "thought" had any effect on me was this one, which, depending on which vendor you buy it from gets a Fakespot rating of "B" to "F". The "B" one has most reviews, so it actually may be legit, but who knows?

 

Personally, if I need a boost of stamina, I use 3g D-Aspartic Acid, and 400mg Rhodiola Rosea in the morning. Seems to do it for me, and they are both cheap in bulk on Amazon. Throw them in some juice and you are good to go.

[TerryFirmer]

Just decoct it? Using a french press and boiled water, and making sure the resulting "tea" is filtered.

Don't know about the equivalent weight of 10g in dried root. But test small and increase cautiously. As long as it's not a powder and you can safely identify it as Morinda Officinalis then it should be safe.

Or just ask the guy in the store?
"怎么吃? 可以泡茶吗"?

 

 

Thanks. I boiled a chunk in a saucepan for about 20 minutes. Water went brown but the root didn't disintegrate so very little particulate matter. Drank the water once cooled - not unpleasant.

 

How important is it to consume the decoction on an empty stomach? I drank it after breakfast and can't feel any clear effect.

 

And what's wrong with consuming the whole root, minus the fibrous bit? Then you'd be sure to get all the active substances.
 

[aconita]

TCM practice usually involves double boiling for 30-45 minutes, the process can be repeated up to 3 times.

 

Grinding the roots before boiling will ensure better extraction of the actives (coffee grinder is OK).

 

Consuming the whole root will likely lead to very poor absorption of actives since they need to be extracted first from the bounding fibers.

 

 

[TerryFirmer]

Hmmm, it seems that one of the constituents of Morinda Officinalis is possibly carcinogenic:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ooks/NBK326613/

"1-Hydroxyanthraquinone has been isolated from the roots of Rubia cordifolia, Morinda officinalis and Damnacanthus indicus, from the heartwood of Tabebuia avellanedae and the herb Cassia occidentalis"

 

"There is sufficient evidence in experimental animals for the carcinogenicity of 1-hydroxyanthraquinone."

 

"1-Hydroxyanthraquinone is possibly carcinogenic to humans (Group 2B)."

 

So far I haven't found any research regarding androgenic effects, save for possible antioxidant activity on Leydig cells in vitro. There does seem to be some evidence for an antidepressant effect.

[hsibai]

thanks Oakman,
will try out your recommendation.

Hello Everyone,
I am keen to know what you think of the "All in one" Free T boosters from nutrition companies?
Found these on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.c...a_bf2EybSEBYC7A

https://www.amazon.c...a_hi2EybBEB6F6G

I just don't want add a new stack and hence an "All in one" would be great.

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

In your quest you might like to try this whilst searching for these (or any) type of supplement on Amazon. First, use/install Chrome browser, then add "Fakespot" extension to Chrome. Fakespot analyzes all the reviews for a product listing and who writes them, then gives a "Grade" for how authentic the rating are and why. For example, for the two you list, Fakespot gives a resounding "F", and "F", respectively. It's not gospel, certainly not perfect, as even a good product can have a vendor who compiles fake reviews, but you know the old saying, "Where there's smoke, ....".

Beyond that, the only supplement of this type I've ever "thought" had any effect on me was this one, which, depending on which vendor you buy it from gets a Fakespot rating of "B" to "F". The "B" one has most reviews, so it actually may be legit, but who knows?

Personally, if I need a boost of stamina, I use 3g D-Aspartic Acid, and 400mg Rhodiola Rosea in the morning. Seems to do it for me, and they are both cheap in bulk on Amazon. Throw them in some juice and you are good to go.

[somuchforthat22]

anyone else try morinda, and get positive effects? chung_pao just convinced me to buy it.  i got it from activeherb... with shipping it's $31 for 100 grams.

[Baten]

anyone else try morinda, and get positive effects? chung_pao just convinced me to buy it.  i got it from activeherb... with shipping it's $31 for 100 grams.

 

I ordered some, will report back.

[Dann Blenkinstoff]

 

I'm puzzled by your inclusion of DHT. The enzyme (5-alpha-reductase) converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Higher DHT levels in hair follicles is a primary cause of male pattern baldness and stimulates proliferation of prostate tissue (leading to BPH). Many men use saw palmetto and nettle to minimize DHT.

 

Aromatase inhibitors like apigenin and chrysin prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Somewhat anti-intuitively, progesterone cream for mean also inhibits conversion to to estrogen.

 

Only those who are going to lose their hair anyway due to DHT have anything to worry about. Unless you have MPB due to DHT, you have nothing to worry about.

 

Everything the op said about DHT is true.

 

Masteron, which is a DHT derived steroid binds to SHBG which allows for more free testosterone.

 

Also, it will help to some extent to prevent testosterone from converting to estrogen.

 

DHT is important.

 

It's no coincidence that some men who take propecia and Avodart get ED.

 

DHT will increase a man's libido.

 

DHT will harden skeletal muscle giving a good luck to people with lower body fat.

 

DHT isn't a big bad boogeyman.

 

I have done cycles with DHT based steroids and have gotten nothing but good results, no MPB, no rise in prostate levels, and no ill effects of any kind. I'm middle aged and therefore more prone to issues with the prostate and MPB than a younger man in his 20s. 

 

DHT based steroids are widely used in the  bodybuilding community and there is rampant outbreak of MPB in bodybuilders. No more so than an average sample of the general community.

 

 

 

No ill effects on the hair? I know the OP mentioned that the link hasn't been 100% proven, but there seems to be at least some evidence. Was curious if you've seen anything as a result.

[Hyperflux]

How likely is it to have low free testosterone but normal-high total testosterone? My total test was 904 ng/dL but as I understand it only free test matters. 

[Rocket]

 

 

I'm puzzled by your inclusion of DHT. The enzyme (5-alpha-reductase) converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Higher DHT levels in hair follicles is a primary cause of male pattern baldness and stimulates proliferation of prostate tissue (leading to BPH). Many men use saw palmetto and nettle to minimize DHT.

 

Aromatase inhibitors like apigenin and chrysin prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Somewhat anti-intuitively, progesterone cream for mean also inhibits conversion to to estrogen.

 

Only those who are going to lose their hair anyway due to DHT have anything to worry about. Unless you have MPB due to DHT, you have nothing to worry about.

 

Everything the op said about DHT is true.

 

Masteron, which is a DHT derived steroid binds to SHBG which allows for more free testosterone.

 

Also, it will help to some extent to prevent testosterone from converting to estrogen.

 

DHT is important.

 

It's no coincidence that some men who take propecia and Avodart get ED.

 

DHT will increase a man's libido.

 

DHT will harden skeletal muscle giving a good luck to people with lower body fat.

 

DHT isn't a big bad boogeyman.

 

I have done cycles with DHT based steroids and have gotten nothing but good results, no MPB, no rise in prostate levels, and no ill effects of any kind. I'm middle aged and therefore more prone to issues with the prostate and MPB than a younger man in his 20s. 

 

DHT based steroids are widely used in the  bodybuilding community and there is rampant outbreak of MPB in bodybuilders. No more so than an average sample of the general community.

 

 

 

No ill effects on the hair? I know the OP mentioned that the link hasn't been 100% proven, but there seems to be at least some evidence. Was curious if you've seen anything as a result.

 

 

I can factually state I have used DHT based anabolics and have not lost any hair. When I was around 20, my hairline started to recede around the temples and stopped after a few years. So I am genetically prone to MPB but using the DHT based substances did nothing to further it along. In theory I should fit the mold for someone who should lose hair using DHT based substances, but nope, nothing. I think some guys just happen to use anabolics and just happen to suffer MPB at the same time. Who knows....
 

[Dann Blenkinstoff]

 

 

 

I'm puzzled by your inclusion of DHT. The enzyme (5-alpha-reductase) converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Higher DHT levels in hair follicles is a primary cause of male pattern baldness and stimulates proliferation of prostate tissue (leading to BPH). Many men use saw palmetto and nettle to minimize DHT.

 

Aromatase inhibitors like apigenin and chrysin prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Somewhat anti-intuitively, progesterone cream for mean also inhibits conversion to to estrogen.

 

Only those who are going to lose their hair anyway due to DHT have anything to worry about. Unless you have MPB due to DHT, you have nothing to worry about.

 

Everything the op said about DHT is true.

 

Masteron, which is a DHT derived steroid binds to SHBG which allows for more free testosterone.

 

Also, it will help to some extent to prevent testosterone from converting to estrogen.

 

DHT is important.

 

It's no coincidence that some men who take propecia and Avodart get ED.

 

DHT will increase a man's libido.

 

DHT will harden skeletal muscle giving a good luck to people with lower body fat.

 

DHT isn't a big bad boogeyman.

 

I have done cycles with DHT based steroids and have gotten nothing but good results, no MPB, no rise in prostate levels, and no ill effects of any kind. I'm middle aged and therefore more prone to issues with the prostate and MPB than a younger man in his 20s. 

 

DHT based steroids are widely used in the  bodybuilding community and there is rampant outbreak of MPB in bodybuilders. No more so than an average sample of the general community.

 

 

 

No ill effects on the hair? I know the OP mentioned that the link hasn't been 100% proven, but there seems to be at least some evidence. Was curious if you've seen anything as a result.

 

 

I can factually state I have used DHT based anabolics and have not lost any hair. When I was around 20, my hairline started to recede around the temples and stopped after a few years. So I am genetically prone to MPB but using the DHT based substances did nothing to further it along. In theory I should fit the mold for someone who should lose hair using DHT based substances, but nope, nothing. I think some guys just happen to use anabolics and just happen to suffer MPB at the same time. Who knows....
 

 

 

Good to hear! Thanks for the information!

[Baten]

Using Morinda Officinalis (Ba Ji Tian) extract 2g a day, since this topic got me interested.

 

So far I notice no real effects, sure I feel all right but I'm not noticing some testosterone boost or spike or anything. Seems to be a mild effect, if there is any.

[The.End]

Enclomiphene shows promising results and after 3 weeks of it I got my girl preggo.

"Raises Testosterone, Maintains Spermatogenesis

The two parallel phase 3 studies, designed to meet FDA regulatory requirements, were conducted with a total of 256 overweight men aged 18 to 60 years, with secondary hypogonadism (serum total testosterone <300 ng/dL) and a low or inappropriately normal luteinizing hormone (LH) level (<9.4 IU/L) on two morning measurements.

They were randomized to oral enclomiphene citrate, testosterone gel (AndroGel, AbbVie), or placebo for 16 weeks. Half of those receiving enclomiphene citrate received 12.5 mg throughout the study, while the other half were uptitrated to 25 mg. Both studies were three-arm, double-dummy design.

Total testosterone above 400 ng/dL was seen after 4 weeks of treatment with enclomiphene citrate but not with testosterone gel. Testosterone levels remained low in the placebo group.

Total testosterone remained higher than baseline in the enclomiphene groups for at least 7 days after the end of treatment (P < .001), while remaining unchanged in the placebo group (P = .38) and dropping rapidly in the testosterone gel group to a level below baseline (P = .07).

Levels of LH and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) increased in the enclomiphene-citrate groups and decreased in the testosterone-gel group at 16 weeks.

Sperm counts declined significantly in the testosterone-gel group compared with both placebo (P < .001) and enclomiphene citrate (P < .001).

Defining "success" as the achievement of sperm concentrations of 10x106 or greater and total testosterone in the normal range, the two enclomiphene-dosing groups succeeded in 63.5% of patients, compared with 24.7% for testosterone gel and 5.8% with placebo (P < .001).

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Using Morinda Officinalis (Ba Ji Tian) extract 2g a day, since this topic got me interested.

 

So far I notice no real effects, sure I feel all right but I'm not noticing some testosterone boost or spike or anything. Seems to be a mild effect, if there is any.

Thanks for the info, saves me buying it, but please try a very high dose just to be sure. 
 

[MikeDC]

Enclomiphene shows promising results and after 3 weeks of it I got my girl preggo.

"Raises Testosterone, Maintains Spermatogenesis

The two parallel phase 3 studies, designed to meet FDA regulatory requirements, were conducted with a total of 256 overweight men aged 18 to 60 years, with secondary hypogonadism (serum total testosterone <300 ng/dL) and a low or inappropriately normal luteinizing hormone (LH) level (<9.4 IU/L) on two morning measurements.

They were randomized to oral enclomiphene citrate, testosterone gel (AndroGel, AbbVie), or placebo for 16 weeks. Half of those receiving enclomiphene citrate received 12.5 mg throughout the study, while the other half were uptitrated to 25 mg. Both studies were three-arm, double-dummy design.

Total testosterone above 400 ng/dL was seen after 4 weeks of treatment with enclomiphene citrate but not with testosterone gel. Testosterone levels remained low in the placebo group.

Total testosterone remained higher than baseline in the enclomiphene groups for at least 7 days after the end of treatment (P < .001), while remaining unchanged in the placebo group (P = .38) and dropping rapidly in the testosterone gel group to a level below baseline (P = .07).

Levels of LH and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) increased in the enclomiphene-citrate groups and decreased in the testosterone-gel group at 16 weeks.

Sperm counts declined significantly in the testosterone-gel group compared with both placebo (P < .001) and enclomiphene citrate (P < .001).

Defining "success" as the achievement of sperm concentrations of 10x106 or greater and total testosterone in the normal range, the two enclomiphene-dosing groups succeeded in 63.5% of patients, compared with 24.7% for testosterone gel and 5.8% with placebo (P < .001).

12.5 mg per day is too high also. I remember there was a study that used 5 mg once per week and was very effective to raise testosterone levels