100 replies to this topic

[matisvijs]

I’ve been interested in maximizing testosterone levels naturally for a while now. In this post, I’ll cover how to increase one’s free testosterone in particular: free testosterone being bioactive is what really delivers the testosterones positive effects on muscle growth, fat loss and physical, mental energy levels.

 

There are 3 variables that we can manipulate to SAFELY increase free testosterone levels:

 

1)Increase it directly - use substances that increase it directly like DHT and magnesium (See below), also use substances that increase factors, that help keep free T high (such as natural 5-ar enhancers i.e. glycine)

2)Lower SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) and minimize factors that increase it -  SHBG is a glycoprotein that binds to the two sex hormones: androgen and estrogen (androgen meaning testosterone in this case), rendering it inactive. Only a very small fraction of about 1-2% is unbound, or "free" (what we’re trying to increase here) and thus biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor.

3)Increase total testosterone levels – the higher our total testosterone levels, the higher free testosterone levels as, even though the percentage of free T may not change, the total amount of it will if we can maximize this variable. Regarding this point, along with substances that increase testosterone, we would also want to use safe and beneficial aromatase inhibitors and anti-estrogenic substances (Nettle root, vitamin E) as conversion to estrogen would reduce our total T levels (and our free T level as a chain reaction).

 

So, let’s look at some substances that fit the bill – some of these accomplish all three of our goals (i.e. raise free T, lower SHBG and raise total T):

·         Boron – often cited as a substance that can lower SHBG levels:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21129941 - increased free T by 28%, estradiol decreased here as well and DHT was elevated

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/10376277 - increased T but also increased estradiol (CAREFUL) which makes it unclear whether boron increases or decreases estrogen. (might want to use with an AI, just to be safe)

http://www.sciencedi...955286396001027

 

·         Magnesium – increases free testosterone(as well as blocks SHBG), here are some studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20352370 - raised free T levels by 24%

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21675994

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24723948

http://www.sciencedi...731708508005955 - decreases SHBG

 

·         Taurine – Raises testosterone in a pretty significant way:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19921479 - normalised lowered T levels, as well as increased them significantly, in different settings, doubling them in some

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23392896 - stimulated testosterone production in aged rats

 

 

·         DHT – reduces estrogen, increases free T:

http://onlinelibrary...0026.x/abstract - shows anti-gynecomastia effects as well

‘T + DHT/E2 ratio increased significantly (P < 0.02) to a normal mean value’

It does reduce circulating testosterone levels in studies but I expect DHT’s anti-e effects would mean that the FREE testosterone levels shouldn’t suffer that much.

As a sidenote, will probably do a separate post on the various other benefits/beneficial actions of DHT: lowers estrogen, lowers prolactin, lowers serotonin, decreases symptoms of gynecomastia, reduces depression, improves spatial working memory, increases GABA, etc.

 

·         Zinc – pretty well known for its effects as a testosterone booster:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16648789

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17984944

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7271365 - increases DHT

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20446777

As a bonus, zinc is a prolactin inhibitor:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/2753470

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/6697238

 

·         Vitamin E – Acts as both, an estrogen receptor antagonist and an aromatase inhibitor, reduces estrogen levels:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16091003

Is also a strong prolactin inhibitor on top of it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/1490755 - decreased prolactin by 69% in the study.

Here’s Ray Peat’s article on it, where he discusses it’s anti-estrogenic effects:: http://raypeat.com/a...vitamin-e.shtml

 

 

·         Vitamin D – lowers SHBG, increases both free and total T:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20050857 - increases T, lowers SHBG

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21154195 - increased T

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18351428 - correlation between optimal vitamin D levls and higher testosterone levels.

Acts as an anti-estrogen:

http://press.endocri...10/en.2009-0855

https://www.fredhutc...ancer-risk.html

 

·         Caffeine – raises testosterone:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22349085

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20737165

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18458357

 

As a bonus caffeine also has some nice (well documented) liver protective effects (will post a seperate thread sometime).

 

·         Nettle root – Lowers SHBG, on top of being an aromatase inhibitor.

Here’s a study on it lowering SHBG: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7702715

Acts as an AI:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3074486/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16643058

 

·         Tribulus terrestris – one of the most popular OTC testosterone and DHT boosters, studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18068966 - from the study:

‘In primates, the increases in T (52%), DHT (31%) and DHEAS (29%) at 7.5mg/kg were statistically significant. In rabbits, both T and DHT were increased compared to control, however, only the increases in DHT (by 30% and 32% at 5 and 10mg/kg) were statistically significant. In castrated rats, increases in T levels by 51% and 25% were observed with T and TT extract respectively that were statistically significant.’

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23723641 - an increase in testosterone was noted (16.3%) but failed to reach statistical significance.

 

·         Selenium – anti-estrogenic:

      https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22128327

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16093440

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15833885

 

·         Vitamin K2 – increases testosterone levels in several studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21894328

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15763078 - effects on estrogen

 

·         Glycine – Upregulates 5-alpha reductase activity, increasing DHT, so acting in the opposite direction as drugs like finasteride(which have anti-androgenic activity):

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18367344

 

·         DHEA – here are some articles on its testosterone increasing properties:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20863330 - increased T but also increased estrogen

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21789881 - again, increases in both T and E

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19321570 - same thing, T, E go up

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18029465 -same, that’s the reason I recommend to only take it with an aromatase inhibitor

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16804050 - DHEA + AI

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16487434

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14667889 - a decrease in SHBG

Other things that increase free testosterone levels: Fructose, resistance exercise, tongkat ali (can be estrogenic though), BCAA (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20300014), niacinamide, natural Ais (chrysin, naringenin, apigenin, etc.) and AI drugs (letrozole, exemestane, etc.), TRT.

 

Recommended books on the subject:

http://amzn.to/2iCsRYK

http://amzn.to/2iCdbEW

http://amzn.to/2iCp123

http://amzn.to/2i5p759

 

 

So if one were to build an experimental stack based on this reasearch, it would look something like this:

Minerals:

Boron – 5-10mg/day, recommended brands: http://amzn.to/2iv4MUK, http://amzn.to/2iJJQZr

Magnesium – 400-600mg/day, recommended brands: http://amzn.to/2hx0HRA, http://amzn.to/2iv4k8S

Zinc – 25mg/day, http://amzn.to/2hA5xPn

Selenium – 200mcg/2-3x a week,  http://amzn.to/2hRxOgu

 

Vitamins:

Vitamin E - 800 IU/day (Use mixed tocopherols instead of alpha tocopherol products) http://amzn.to/2iuTFei

Vitamin K2 - 5-10mg/day (Would have to use Thorne’s stuff to achieve miligram dosages) http://amzn.to/2imy0aV

Vitamin D – 2000-4000 IU/day, brand: http://amzn.to/2icCQqX

Amino – acids:

Taurine – 5g/day, http://amzn.to/2imzguS (cheap, well reviewed)

Glycine –10g/day,  http://amzn.to/2iJLmKS

Hormones:

DHT – As far as I know it’s only available in cream form OTC, one can use creatine in it’s place though, combined with 5-ar enhancers (glycine), it should have the needed (similar) net effect. Here’s a study on creatine increasing DHT by 50%+: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19741313

DHEA – 15mg/day (Must use with an AI like Nettle root/vit E to minimize conversion to estrogen)

 

Herbs and other:

Caffeine – 500mg/day (Can use caffeine capsules or just drink 4-5 cups of coffee) http://amzn.to/2hAcujE

Nettle root – 500-750 mg/day, http://amzn.to/2icKX73

Tribulus Terrestris – 500 mg/day (Again, use only with an AI, as it can be estrogenic, the OPPOSITE of what we want)

 

As you can see, the dosages I ‘recommend’ are quite high for some things (though some of the studies used even higher) , hence the word ‘experimental’. My recommendation is to do this as a test/loading phase only for a month or two(watch for effects and STOP, if they’re negative) and then cut all the recommended dosages in half for mantainance, with the exception of magnesium (400mg/day is a pretty standard dose). One also realistically wouldn’t use EVERYTHING on this list at once (though I can’t think of a reason why you couldn’t, theoretically).

Edited by matisvijs, 29 December 2016 - 08:54 PM.

[Richard McGee]

I'm puzzled by your inclusion of DHT. The enzyme (5-alpha-reductase) converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Higher DHT levels in hair follicles is a primary cause of male pattern baldness and stimulates proliferation of prostate tissue (leading to BPH). Many men use saw palmetto and nettle to minimize DHT.

 

Aromatase inhibitors like apigenin and chrysin prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Somewhat anti-intuitively, progesterone cream for mean also inhibits conversion to to estrogen.

Edited by Richard McGee, 29 December 2016 - 11:24 PM.

[matisvijs]

I'm puzzled by your inclusion of DHT. The enzyme (5-alpha-reductase) converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Higher DHT levels in hair follicles is a primary cause of male pattern baldness and stimulates proliferation of prostate tissue (leading to BPH). Many men use saw palmetto and nettle to minimize DHT.

 

Aromatase inhibitors like apigenin and chrysin prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Somewhat anti-intuitively, progesterone cream for mean also inhibits conversion to to estrogen.

 

Yes, progesterone is anti-estrogenic, on top of a host of other benefits. The link between DHT and hairloss isn't that clear imo, and even if that was the case, there are just too many benefits to keeping DHT in range or maybe even in the upper range. There's clearly a strong link of loss of libido and depressive symptoms associated with hairloss drugs (that inhibit 5-ar), though I'm definitely aware of the mainstream opinion that DHT is 'bad' in terms of that. Again, come to your own conclusions about things and act accordingly. 

[Baten]

You should know that most nettle root products on the market are basically worthless. The NOW Foods one you linked is quite bad, there's barely any of the active substances in it (I should know, I have consumed several bottles). The NOW Foods capsules are filled with a green herb powder, a potent extract should look orange-brown-ish. 'Test boost' products tend to use 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran standardized extracts, but those are kind of a scam as well, the extract is supposedly 95% 3,4-Divanillyl but it's more like 5%...

So basically, nettle: great, extracts on the market: not so great.

Edited by Baten, 30 December 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Harkijn]

Probably vitamin B5 deserves inclusion in your list:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19959891

[TerryFirmer]

Just my n=1: I have taken most of the minerals and vitamins in the above list for many years. A year ago these were my results:

 

Total T 43 nmol/l Normal range 5-32

Free T (calculated) 0.5 nmol/l Range 0.1-0.5

SHGB 96 nmol/l

 

FWIW my hunch is that the supplement that did the most to get the T levels so high was Vit D. I was tested at waaaaay above the normal range for Vit D, such that I had to stop taking it for several months for fear of toxicity.

 

Now, with those figures you would think I'd have a raging libido, but not so. My estradiol and prolactin tested normal, so I'm a bit mystified as to why my libido is ho-hum. Is there such a thing as too much T?

Edited by TerryFirmer, 30 December 2016 - 10:48 AM.

[pamojja]

I’ve been interested in maximizing testosterone levels naturally for a while now. In this post, I’ll cover how to increase one’s free testosterone in particular:

 
Matisvijs, what have been your results in term of lab numbers before and after?
 

Just my n=1: I have taken most of the minerals and vitamins in the above list for many years. A year ago these were my results:
 
..l, so I'm a bit mystified as to why my libido is ho-hum. Is there such a thing as too much T?

 

Thanks. What were your numbers before?

 

I'm mystified too, by my experience of below normal free testosterone for 3 years in average of 4.8 pg/ml (8.7 - 54.7 normal range) and low T of 305 ng/dl (300-1000 normal range). November last year - about 1 year ago - both suddenly started to rise and ended up normal by July (10.3 for free and 588 for total T), libido followed. Though I did use all above mentioned nutrients for all those years - in average:

 

8 mg boron, 1.8 g magnesium, 48 mg zinc, 290 mcg selenium, 310 of alpha + 270 mg of other tocopherols, 17 mg vitamin K2, 210 mcg vitamin D3, 2 g vitamin B5, 3.1 g taurine, 3.2 g suppl. + 2.6 glycine from food, 2.1 g creatine, 18 mg dhea, 300 mg caffeine, 340 mg nettle root, 420 mg tribulus

 

So in my case there must be other factors at play too. For example, that I got rid of intermittent claudication symptoms 2 years ago (due to a 80% abdominal aorta stenosis limiting all blood-flow to my lower body), and other supplements, speculated in this other thread.
 

Edited by pamojja, 30 December 2016 - 12:41 PM.

[TerryFirmer]

@pamojja My numbers before? Hard to say because I haven't had much testing done until the last 18 months. And I've been taking many of those supplements on and off for so many years, there isn't an identifiable 'before'.

 

The previous value I remember was total T about 27 nmol/l about ten years ago. That was near the top of the range, but the 43 I got last year was exceptionally high. Now that my Vit D level has gone down I should retest total and free T.

 

In another thread about sleep I speculate that I may have too much adrenaline and/or noradrenaline, so maybe that blunts libido by reducing dopamine. Or I'm just getting old (late 50s).

 

Anyway, I don't want to derail an excellent thread. I think the OP gave very good advice. It's just that there's more to libido than T alone.

[pamojja]

Anyway, I don't want to derail an excellent thread. I think the OP gave very good advice. It's just that there's more to libido than T alone.

 
Everyone's experiences with exactly such a regimen can't possibly derail the thread. By the way, your high SHBG alone (optimal below 30) could explain your lack of libido, just confirming the OP. Though with the higher Ts my SHBG increased too above normal (~70) without hindering its return.

Edited by pamojja, 30 December 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[TerryFirmer]

 

Anyway, I don't want to derail an excellent thread. I think the OP gave very good advice. It's just that there's more to libido than T alone.

 
Everyone's experiences with exactly such a regimen can't possibly derail the thread. By the way, your high SHBG alone (optimal below 30) could explain your lack of libido, just confirming the OP. Though with the higher Ts my SHBG increased too above normal (~70) without hindering its return.

 

 

Well, not exactly the same regimen. I didn't take the aminos and herbs, for example, and the other supplement use has been somewhat sporadic apart from very consistent Vit D, zinc and Vit C over ten years and more.

 

I can't find a sure way to get the SHBG down. But my free T is top of the range, so it should be ok, I'd have thought.

 

Although just today I was wondering if the SHGB is binding a lot of estradiol, which could mean low levels of free estrogen, which is needed for libido, I believe. My total estradiol is fine, but maybe it's all bound up? Anyway, I really am getting off topic now.
 

[pamojja]

My total estradiol is fine, but maybe it's all bound up? Anyway, I really am getting off topic now.

 

Still think perfectly within the topic, and/or what can go wrong.

 

 

There are 3 variables that we can manipulate to SAFELY increase free testosterone levels:

 

1) Increase it directly ..

2) Lower SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) and minimize factors that increase it ..

3) Increase total testosterone levels ..

[pamojja]

 

I’ve been interested in maximizing testosterone levels naturally for a while now. In this post, I’ll cover how to increase one’s free testosterone in particular:

 
Matisvijs, what have been your results in term of lab numbers before and after?

 No answer to this question answers the extent of your experience with it too.

[Rocket]

I'm puzzled by your inclusion of DHT. The enzyme (5-alpha-reductase) converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Higher DHT levels in hair follicles is a primary cause of male pattern baldness and stimulates proliferation of prostate tissue (leading to BPH). Many men use saw palmetto and nettle to minimize DHT.

 

Aromatase inhibitors like apigenin and chrysin prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Somewhat anti-intuitively, progesterone cream for mean also inhibits conversion to to estrogen.

 

Only those who are going to lose their hair anyway due to DHT have anything to worry about. Unless you have MPB due to DHT, you have nothing to worry about.

 

Everything the op said about DHT is true.

 

Masteron, which is a DHT derived steroid binds to SHBG which allows for more free testosterone.

 

Also, it will help to some extent to prevent testosterone from converting to estrogen.

 

DHT is important.

 

It's no coincidence that some men who take propecia and Avodart get ED.

 

DHT will increase a man's libido.

 

DHT will harden skeletal muscle giving a good luck to people with lower body fat.

 

DHT isn't a big bad boogeyman.

 

I have done cycles with DHT based steroids and have gotten nothing but good results, no MPB, no rise in prostate levels, and no ill effects of any kind. I'm middle aged and therefore more prone to issues with the prostate and MPB than a younger man in his 20s. 

 

DHT based steroids are widely used in the  bodybuilding community and there is rampant outbreak of MPB in bodybuilders. No more so than an average sample of the general community.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rocket, 01 January 2017 - 02:16 PM.

[matisvijs]

 

 

I’ve been interested in maximizing testosterone levels naturally for a while now. In this post, I’ll cover how to increase one’s free testosterone in particular:

 
Matisvijs, what have been your results in term of lab numbers before and after?

 No answer to this question answers the extent of your experience with it too.

 

I've used something similar to this protocol (and had good results in terms of muscle gain, energy levels and 'feeling') but, no, I don' t have before/after labs.

[pamojja]

I've used something similar to this protocol (and had good results in terms of muscle gain, energy levels and 'feeling') but, no, I don' t have before/after labs.

 

Thanks for being honest now. However, you do understand that the specific laboratory marker mentioned in the title and opening post are quite misleading, in that you gave the impression you have ample experience in optimizing these lab markers, while in reality never even had them tested! And indulged in mere scientific speculations and click-baiting.

 

Muscle gain, energy levels and 'feeling, even libido might or might not correlate with androgen levels, as anyone having tested these can tell you. Too many more factors at play.

[matisvijs]

 

I've used something similar to this protocol (and had good results in terms of muscle gain, energy levels and 'feeling') but, no, I don' t have before/after labs.

 

Thanks for being honest now. However, you do understand that the specific laboratory marker mentioned in the title and opening post are quite misleading, in that you gave the impression you have ample experience in optimizing these lab markers, while in reality never even had them tested! And indulged in mere scientific speculations and click-baiting.

 

Muscle gain, energy levels and 'feeling, even libido might or might not correlate with androgen levels, as anyone having tested these can tell you. Too many more factors at play.

 

Were was I dishonest from the start? If I had before/after labs, I would've obviously posted them in the original post? I have tested them just not before I started supplementing some of these substances (and others, which also confound things). Yes, there are a lot of factors at play there but, subjectively, I noted benefits and shared, so others can experiment? Sorry for being misleading (If I was)...

Edited by matisvijs, 01 January 2017 - 04:53 PM.

[Ark]

Intresting thread, mk866 is good stuff.

Edited by Ark, 02 January 2017 - 02:46 AM.

[Ark]

I'm curious where everyone is purchasing their sarms at now. It seems much of the sources are sold out and not producing more.


Thanks!

[Hyperflux]

Why is it bad to take selenium more than 2-3x week? I thought it was good for those who are hypothyroid and have trouble converting T4 to T3. 

 

Speaking of boron, how long would you use 10mg for and with or without food? Thanks.

[Ark]

Someones mood/emotional well being directly influences cortisol levels which can negatively impact the bodies ability to create free testosterone, also ridding your diet of alcohol can be very beneficial.

[Tmassini]

The most effective way to rise free testosterone is to not concentrate to T, but lowering estrogen and cortisol / consequently increasing T. When you get enough sleep, introduce adaptogens such as ashwagandha, ginseng, rhodiola, eat foods that block aromatase (white buttom mushrooms with combination of green tea) and exercise intensively. 
From your list, I choose vitD, boron, nettle root...others (dhea, dht) are hormones/hormonal precursors and not nutrients. There are multiple ingredients more efficient (we are talking about really small changes) than those listed above.

[Baten]

Currently consuming 200-300% of my usual boron intake, man is this stuff powerful. Easily one of the 'easy' T-raising supplements. Might have an effect on E too, though.

Also, pimples. Lots of them.

[Tmassini]

Does borron works? What effects do you experience? Which T-boosting substance have you been using so far (can you compare them)?

White button mushrooms + green tea extract have show greatest antiaromatic characteristics (blocking the concersion to estrogen). Maybe in combination with resveratol (has agonistic and antigonistic properties)

[Baten]

Does borron works? What effects do you experience? Which T-boosting substance have you been using so far (can you compare them)?

White button mushrooms + green tea extract have show greatest antiaromatic characteristics (blocking the concersion to estrogen). Maybe in combination with resveratol (has agonistic and antigonistic properties)

 

Tried pretty much everything. About to try KSM-66 which is supposedly a T-booster as well. Boron seems to help maximize your own hormone production. I'm taking LEF's product which also supplies riboflavin which supposedly is depleted by increased boron intake. Together with another complex I'm using, getting around 10-12mg per day (half in the morning half in the late afternoon). Boron from fructoborate (FruiteX B) seems to be the most optimal form but it's not widely available yet.

 

Also I highly advise against green tea, in anything but very small amounts. I used to be an avid green tea consumer, until a hormone panel showed I had disproportionately high SHBG. Google the combination and you'll see there's a bunch of resources that confirm the finding that green tea raises SHBG, which should probably be avoided if you want to maximize your unbounded T.

Edited by Baten, 12 January 2017 - 02:37 PM.

[Tmassini]

 

Does borron works? What effects do you experience? Which T-boosting substance have you been using so far (can you compare them)?

White button mushrooms + green tea extract have show greatest antiaromatic characteristics (blocking the concersion to estrogen). Maybe in combination with resveratol (has agonistic and antigonistic properties)

 

Tried pretty much everything. About to try KSM-66 which is supposedly a T-booster as well. Boron seems to help maximize your own hormone production. I'm taking LEF's product which also supplies riboflavin which supposedly is depleted by increased boron intake. Together with another complex I'm using, getting around 10-12mg per day (half in the morning half in the late afternoon). Boron from fructoborate (FruiteX B) seems to be the most optimal form but it's not widely available yet.

 

Also I highly advise against green tea, in anything but very small amounts. I used to be an avid green tea consumer, until a hormone panel showed I had disproportionately high SHBG. Google the combination and you'll see there's a bunch of resources that confirm the finding that green tea raises SHBG, which should probably be avoided if you want to maximize your unbounded T.

 

 

That's interesting. I have always thought that this is broscience, but there is some evidence on ncbi suggesting you might be right. But I think that is if consumed really high amounts (testing only in rodents). Similar story has been with eleuthero and resvaratrol. Did your SHBG decreased when stop drinking it?

The problem with KSM-66 that this is not the whole extract but only standarized crucial parts of the plan.

I never tested my hormonal levels, so I can only refer to libido and muscle mass. Boron haven't worked for me, but it might be the fake formula. Phytosterols do for me. High amounts of adaptogens (Cordyceps, ginseng) also helps. Vitamin D and fats also. Mixed results with gele royale, horny goat weed and yohimbee - depends on the quality I guess. No D-aspartic acid or proven ways had any effect on me. 

Similary, overconsumption of caffeine had libido-pooping effects on me. As I read only if taking before exercise and do some really intensive shit it can increase it, but that is due to the better performance. 

My approach is more due the cortisol lowering. I think that is causing more T-related problems than low T itself. I'm always like to invest money in adaptogens than in some DAA. 

Edited by Tmassini, 12 January 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[Baten]

 

That's interesting. I have always thought that this is broscience, but there is some evidence on ncbi suggesting you might be right. But I think that is if consumed really high amounts (testing only in rodents). Similar story has been with eleuthero and resvaratrol. Did your SHBG decreased when stop drinking it?

The problem with KSM-66 that this is not the whole extract but only standarized crucial parts of the plan.

I never tested my hormonal levels, so I can only refer to libido and muscle mass. Boron haven't worked for me, but it might be the fake formula. Phytosterols do for me. High amounts of adaptogens (Cordyceps, ginseng) also helps. Vitamin D and fats also. Mixed results with gele royale, horny goat weed and yohimbee - depends on the quality I guess. No D-aspartic acid or proven ways had any effect on me. 

My approach is more due the cortisol lowering. I think that is causing more T-related problems than low T itself. I'm always like to invest money in adaptogens than in some DAA. 

 

 

I've had limited success with adaptogens (cordyceps, rhodiola, high quality Ilhwa ginseng, ...). I want to test GS15 ginseng and 98% jiaogulan some time though since both seem very concentrated. Phytosterols work for you, which do you take? I skipped trying them since I thought of them as broscience.. lol

DAA actually has some effect for me, but in the form of a complex with other stuff (think it was from Stacker), pricy stuff though. I think DAA is mostly useless since even if it does help, you will inevitably return to baseline afterwards (which is kind of the problem with *most* of these supplements). Hard to "hack" your body, better to target what causes problems in the first place.

 

Funny you mention cortisol, cortisol was quite high as well at the time SHBG was high. Both were lowered next blood panel, at the time I was just taking tribulus and malysian 200:1 tongkat ali (I know now that tribulus is only really useful as a libido booster, and that powdercity sells a better tongkat extract standardized for eurycomanones). My doctor put me on Proviron for a while since my readings weren't optimal for my age (23 at the time), perhaps it, more than anything, contributed to the lower SHBG.

Edited by Baten, 12 January 2017 - 04:11 PM.

[cesium]

Last year I had a slight drop in libido so had my doctor test for testosterone. He said my total testosterone was ridiculously high for my age (60 y/o) something like 950 ng/dl, so he refused to test my free testosterone. In the past month my sex drive has dropped to essentially zero with a noticeable increase in ED. The only thing that has substantially changed in that time period is that I was forced to stop a daily marijuana habit due to the possibility I may face a drug test for employment issues. I have noticed that cannibis tended to turn my mind towards sex a great deal, if nothing else I usually masturbated while on it, but now that it's been a month and completely out of my system, presto I'm practically a eunuch. Ready to say screw the employment drug test issues and go back on it. Anyone else have this reaction to marijuana or lack thereof?

[hsibai]

I’ve been interested in maximizing testosterone levels naturally for a while now. In this post, I’ll cover how to increase one’s free testosterone in particular: free testosterone being bioactive is what really delivers the testosterones positive effects on muscle growth, fat loss and physical, mental energy levels.

There are 3 variables that we can manipulate to SAFELY increase free testosterone levels:

1)Increase it directly - use substances that increase it directly like DHT and magnesium (See below), also use substances that increase factors, that help keep free T high (such as natural 5-ar enhancers i.e. glycine)
2)Lower SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) and minimize factors that increase it - SHBG is a glycoprotein that binds to the two sex hormones: androgen and estrogen (androgen meaning testosterone in this case), rendering it inactive. Only a very small fraction of about 1-2% is unbound, or "free" (what we’re trying to increase here) and thus biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor.
3)Increase total testosterone levels – the higher our total testosterone levels, the higher free testosterone levels as, even though the percentage of free T may not change, the total amount of it will if we can maximize this variable. Regarding this point, along with substances that increase testosterone, we would also want to use safe and beneficial aromatase inhibitors and anti-estrogenic substances (Nettle root, vitamin E) as conversion to estrogen would reduce our total T levels (and our free T level as a chain reaction).

So, let’s look at some substances that fit the bill – some of these accomplish all three of our goals (i.e. raise free T, lower SHBG and raise total T):

· Boron – often cited as a substance that can lower SHBG levels:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21129941 - increased free T by 28%, estradiol decreased here as well and DHT was elevated

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/10376277 - increased T but also increased estradiol (CAREFUL) which makes it unclear whether boron increases or decreases estrogen. (might want to use with an AI, just to be safe)

http://www.sciencedi...955286396001027

· Magnesium – increases free testosterone(as well as blocks SHBG), here are some studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20352370 - raised free T levels by 24%

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21675994

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24723948

http://www.sciencedi...731708508005955 - decreases SHBG

· Taurine – Raises testosterone in a pretty significant way:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19921479 - normalised lowered T levels, as well as increased them significantly, in different settings, doubling them in some

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23392896 - stimulated testosterone production in aged rats

· DHT – reduces estrogen, increases free T:

http://onlinelibrary...0026.x/abstract - shows anti-gynecomastia effects as well

‘T + DHT/E2 ratio increased significantly (P < 0.02) to a normal mean value’

It does reduce circulating testosterone levels in studies but I expect DHT’s anti-e effects would mean that the FREE testosterone levels shouldn’t suffer that much.

As a sidenote, will probably do a separate post on the various other benefits/beneficial actions of DHT: lowers estrogen, lowers prolactin, lowers serotonin, decreases symptoms of gynecomastia, reduces depression, improves spatial working memory, increases GABA, etc.

· Zinc – pretty well known for its effects as a testosterone booster:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16648789

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17984944

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7271365 - increases DHT

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20446777

As a bonus, zinc is a prolactin inhibitor:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/2753470

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/6697238

· Vitamin E – Acts as both, an estrogen receptor antagonist and an aromatase inhibitor, reduces estrogen levels:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16091003

Is also a strong prolactin inhibitor on top of it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/1490755 - decreased prolactin by 69% in the study.

Here’s Ray Peat’s article on it, where he discusses it’s anti-estrogenic effects:: http://raypeat.com/a...vitamin-e.shtml

· Vitamin D – lowers SHBG, increases both free and total T:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20050857 - increases T, lowers SHBG

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21154195 - increased T

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18351428 - correlation between optimal vitamin D levls and higher testosterone levels.

Acts as an anti-estrogen:

http://press.endocri...10/en.2009-0855

https://www.fredhutc...ancer-risk.html

· Caffeine – raises testosterone:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22349085

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20737165

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18458357

As a bonus caffeine also has some nice (well documented) liver protective effects (will post a seperate thread sometime).

· Nettle root – Lowers SHBG, on top of being an aromatase inhibitor.

Here’s a study on it lowering SHBG: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7702715

Acts as an AI:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3074486/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16643058

· Tribulus terrestris – one of the most popular OTC testosterone and DHT boosters, studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18068966 - from the study:

‘In primates, the increases in T (52%), DHT (31%) and DHEAS (29%) at 7.5mg/kg were statistically significant. In rabbits, both T and DHT were increased compared to control, however, only the increases in DHT (by 30% and 32% at 5 and 10mg/kg) were statistically significant. In castrated rats, increases in T levels by 51% and 25% were observed with T and TT extract respectively that were statistically significant.’

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23723641 - an increase in testosterone was noted (16.3%) but failed to reach statistical significance.

· Selenium – anti-estrogenic:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22128327

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16093440

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15833885

· Vitamin K2 – increases testosterone levels in several studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21894328

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15763078 - effects on estrogen

· Glycine – Upregulates 5-alpha reductase activity, increasing DHT, so acting in the opposite direction as drugs like finasteride(which have anti-androgenic activity):

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18367344

· DHEA – here are some articles on its testosterone increasing properties:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20863330 - increased T but also increased estrogen

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21789881 - again, increases in both T and E

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19321570 - same thing, T, E go up

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18029465 -same, that’s the reason I recommend to only take it with an aromatase inhibitor

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16804050 - DHEA + AI

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16487434

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14667889 - a decrease in SHBG

Other things that increase free testosterone levels: Fructose, resistance exercise, tongkat ali (can be estrogenic though), BCAA (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20300014), niacinamide, natural Ais (chrysin, naringenin, apigenin, etc.) and AI drugs (letrozole, exemestane, etc.), TRT.

Recommended books on the subject:
http://amzn.to/2iCsRYK
http://amzn.to/2iCdbEW
http://amzn.to/2iCp123
http://amzn.to/2i5p759


So if one were to build an experimental stack based on this reasearch, it would look something like this:
Minerals:
Boron – 5-10mg/day, recommended brands: http://amzn.to/2iv4MUK, http://amzn.to/2iJJQZr
Magnesium – 400-600mg/day, recommended brands: http://amzn.to/2hx0HRA, http://amzn.to/2iv4k8S
Zinc – 25mg/day, http://amzn.to/2hA5xPn
Selenium – 200mcg/2-3x a week, http://amzn.to/2hRxOgu

Vitamins:
Vitamin E - 800 IU/day (Use mixed tocopherols instead of alpha tocopherol products) http://amzn.to/2iuTFei
Vitamin K2 - 5-10mg/day (Would have to use Thorne’s stuff to achieve miligram dosages) http://amzn.to/2imy0aV
Vitamin D – 2000-4000 IU/day, brand: http://amzn.to/2icCQqX
Amino – acids:
Taurine – 5g/day, http://amzn.to/2imzguS (cheap, well reviewed)
Glycine –10g/day, http://amzn.to/2iJLmKS
Hormones:
DHT – As far as I know it’s only available in cream form OTC, one can use creatine in it’s place though, combined with 5-ar enhancers (glycine), it should have the needed (similar) net effect. Here’s a study on creatine increasing DHT by 50%+: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19741313
DHEA – 15mg/day (Must use with an AI like Nettle root/vit E to minimize conversion to estrogen)

Herbs and other:
Caffeine – 500mg/day (Can use caffeine capsules or just drink 4-5 cups of coffee) http://amzn.to/2hAcujE
Nettle root – 500-750 mg/day, http://amzn.to/2icKX73
Tribulus Terrestris – 500 mg/day (Again, use only with an AI, as it can be estrogenic, the OPPOSITE of what we want)

As you can see, the dosages I ‘recommend’ are quite high for some things (though some of the studies used even higher) , hence the word ‘experimental’. My recommendation is to do this as a test/loading phase only for a month or two(watch for effects and STOP, if they’re negative) and then cut all the recommended dosages in half for mantainance, with the exception of magnesium (400mg/day is a pretty standard dose). One also realistically wouldn’t use EVERYTHING on this list at once (though I can’t think of a reason why you couldn’t, theoretically).

Hello everyone,

I am keen to know what you think of the "All in one" Free T boosters from nutrition companies?
Found these on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.c...a_bf2EybSEBYC7A

https://www.amazon.c...a_hi2EybBEB6F6G

I just don't want add a new stack and hence an "All in one" would be great.

Thanks.

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[Baten]

There's a ton of booster products on amazon that pop up out of nowhere from no-name "companies".

These products are not based on a thought-out formulation, but just count on novelty for a quick cash grab.

 

The first is a proprietary blend, the likes I've seen in countless near-exact clones. A 148mg blend will do nothing for you.
The second makes you swallow (3) capsules, of which most entirely tribulus. The 50mg each of other herbs will do next to nothing.
Tribulus is a libido booster more than anything, making you "feel" manlier, but that's it. There's 0 clinical proof for testosterone benefits.

 

If you ARE going to go for an all-in-one formula, it's gonna cost you. $15 will not get you a quality product, what do you expect?

In Europe these are tons of products on the market, many of which in the £50(50-60 dollar) range. Some are half-decent, many are worthless.

I have purchased many of them out of curiosity, and would not re-purchase most of them. They are marketed as athletic performance boosters,

not to really fix your testosterone levels. If you're low-range you'd be looking at a (possibly temporary) increase to higher low-end to mid-range levels, at max.

If you want to look for a higher quality compound product, perhaps take a look here. I like this website since it seems a little less biased than elsewhere on related forums, but any company can make people write fake reviews if they really want to...

 

It's simply so much more cost-effective to buy select products and see if they work for you, see recommendations in this thread.

And I don't think there's much of a cure-all, only slight benefits that add up over time to very slowly raise your baseline.

 

Edited by Baten, 15 January 2017 - 04:07 PM.

[hsibai]

There's a ton of booster products on amazon that pop up out of nowhere from no-name "companies".
These products are not based on a thought-out formulation, but just count on novelty for a quick cash grab.

The first is a proprietary blend, the likes I've seen in countless near-exact clones. A 148mg blend will do nothing for you.
The second makes you swallow (3) capsules, of which most entirely tribulus. The 50mg each of other herbs will do next to nothing.
Tribulus is a libido booster more than anything, making you "feel" manlier, but that's it. There's 0 clinical proof for testosterone benefits.

If you ARE going to go for an all-in-one formula, it's gonna cost you. $15 will not get you a quality product, what do you expect?
In Europe these are tons of products on the market, many of which in the £50(50-60 dollar) range. Some are half-decent, many are worthless.
I have purchased many of them out of curiosity, and would not re-purchase most of them. They are marketed as athletic performance boosters,
not to really fix your testosterone levels. If you're low-range you'd be looking at a (possibly temporary) increase to higher low-end to mid-range levels, at max.
If you want to look for a higher quality compound product, perhaps take a look here. I like this website since it seems a little less biased than elsewhere on related forums, but any company can make people write fake reviews if they really want to...

It's simply so much more cost-effective to buy select products and see if they work for you, see recommendations in this thread.
And I don't think there's much of a cure-all, only slight benefits that add up over time to very slowly raise your baseline.

This is quite helpful. Thanks!

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