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Ketoginic Diet, Insulin, A1C and Blood Glucose

insulin a1c keto

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#61 Nate-2004

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:42 AM

Where do I get decanoic acid??

 

MCT is helping but I think it was helping more on keto/LCHF. I am genuinely conflicted about being on keto and getting way too much conflicting info.



#62 Heisok

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:06 AM

You already are getting it. Sorry. That is the C10 Capric Acid or Decanoic.

 

I am also conflicted about Keto, but if it helps me with better cognitive abilities, then I will stay on it. I can not prove that one way or another, but Dale Bredesen's work has been discussed here a lot related to Dementia , Mild Cognitive Impairment and Alzheimers disease.

 

Keep your chin up, you are a fighter I think!!

 

 

 


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#63 normalizing

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:47 PM

my ketones are 15 mg/dL what does it mean


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#64 Nate-2004

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:05 PM

my ketones are 15 mg/dL what does it mean

 

You should measure in mmol/dl, that's 0.8 mmol/dl which is just nutritional ketosis levels. Optimal is supposedly 1.5 to 3.0.



#65 normalizing

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:14 PM

oh i have no idea i just did blood work for liver function and i noticed they also mention ketones and i decided to post and ask. i really dunno how to test for ketones other than blood work which shows it like this...


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#66 Andey

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 02:26 PM

Most people here stay on a position of common sense and moderation but for me its based on a skewed axis. If somebody has a substantial part of his ancestry from northern Europeans than ketogenic diet is worth considering at least periodically. 6-8 month a year our ancestors lived in keto state.

If somebody has India, Southern China, Okinawan etc type of ancestry than most likely his genome is optimised more towards carbohydrate dominant type diets. 

I would say that try a 'diet' for at least 2 months get blood work done, do another type for 2 months, maybe another, compare results, how it feels etc and make a decision based on this.


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#67 able

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:47 PM

I would say that for millions of years, all our ancestors were in ketosis most of the time as they didn't have a constant supply of 2000 calories  on hand every day.

 

Even over the last few thousand years when humans developed agriculture and may have had grains and such year round, those were low glycemic whole foods, and likely not consumed in huge quantities throughout the day. 


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#68 Nate-2004

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 12:43 AM

After some time it turns out the ET is not entirely as diminished by the caprylic acid alone. I imagine now that the keto diet and MCT oil were synergistic in helping with my tremor so... I guess I gotta be permanently on keto. Sigh. I hate that diet. It's not a fun diet at all. I guess I'll get off the diet for thanksgiving and other events and just be on it whenever there's nothing else going on.



#69 Advocatus Diaboli

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 01:15 AM

That makes sense,  Nate. I suspect that if there is any glucose around as a product of carbohydrate ingestion then the brain will use it preferentially over any available MCTs. Experimentation might give you an idea as to your upper limit for carbs such that you don't feel too deprived on keto and that the ET is controlled to your satisfaction. Good luck.


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#70 Kinesis

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 05:34 PM

...
 
"Seizure control by decanoic acid through direct AMPA receptor inhibition"
 
"The medium chain triglyceride ketogenic diet is an established treatment for drug-resistant epilepsy that increases plasma levels of decanoic acid and ketones. Recently, decanoic acid has been shown to provide seizure control in vivo, yet its mechanism of action remains unclear. Here we show that decanoic acid, but not the ketones β-hydroxybutryate or acetone, shows antiseizure activity in two acute ex vivo rat hippocampal slice models of epileptiform activity. To search for a mechanism of decanoic acid, we show it has a strong inhibitory effect on excitatory, but not inhibitory, neurotransmission in hippocampal slices. Using heterologous expression of excitatory ionotropic glutamate receptor AMPA subunits in Xenopus oocytes, we show that this effect is through direct AMPA receptor inhibition, a target shared by a recently introduced epilepsy treatment perampanel. Decanoic acid acts as a non-competitive antagonist at therapeutically relevant concentrations, in a voltage- and subunit-dependent manner, and this is sufficient to explain its antiseizure effects. This inhibitory effect is likely to be caused by binding to sites on the M3 helix of the AMPA-GluA2 transmembrane domain; independent from the binding site of perampanel. Together our results indicate that the direct inhibition of excitatory neurotransmission by decanoic acid in the brain contributes to the anti-convulsant effect of the medium chain triglyceride ketogenic diet"
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4805082/


The concluding comments in this study (emphasis added) seem particularly interesting:
 

 

The direct effect of decanoic acid on AMPA receptor mediated currents raises a concern of a detrimental effect on cognitive function. Numerous studies have demonstrated that AMPA receptors contribute to synaptic strengthening during long-term potentiation, a cellular model of synaptic plasticity, and experience-dependent neuronal plasticity (Talos et al., 2006; Santos et al., 2009; Wang et al., 2012). This is further supported by mouse models, lacking the gene encoding the GluA1 subunit (Gria1) exhibiting impaired hippocampus-dependent memory (Sanderson et al., 2008). However, neither competitive nor non-competitive antagonists of AMPA receptors (at concentrations that inhibit seizure activity) had an effect on long-term potentiation (a cellular correlate of learning and memory) (Sanderson et al., 2008), and this is consistent with in vivo data in which AMPA receptor antagonists at therapeutic doses do not affect cognition (Pan et al., 2010). Indeed, in humans, the MCT ketogenic diet has been shown to have diverse positive effects on brain function, such as increased alertness, better cognitive functioning, and improved behaviour, not only in epilepsy patients (Kinsman et al., 1992; Pulsifer et al., 2001) but also in patients with type 1 diabetes given an insulin infusion (Page et al., 2009). The extent to which these effects can be attributed to decanoic acid or other components of the diet remains to be determined.

 



#71 hakonbo

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 12:24 PM

Keto makes you insulin resistant, but in a good way. It's called adaptive glucose sparing. When you're diabetic, you're insulin resistant, because the cells insulin receptors are broken. When you're doing keto, you become insulin resistant because the cells turn off their insulin receptors so that the little glucose that's available in the body, is spared for the cells that need it and cannot use fat as energy. Red blood cells, some brain cells, some kidney cells I think. The body turn to fat for energy and don't need the glucose. But if you eat more glucose, the body turns off the insuln resistancy. But most researches don't know this. That's they say low carb causes insulin resistancy.


Edited by hakonbo, 21 December 2017 - 12:27 PM.

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#72 Heisok

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:15 PM

This is just my experience, and is not rigorously documented. I think that it is possible that the so called Ketosis insulin resistance might be persistent upon discontinuation.  Do due diligence. It is possible in my case that an approximate 2 year period of eating Very Low Carb <50 gms a day, and Ketogenic <25 gms carbs per day. Those carb levels are not a judgement of what is in fact LC or Ketogenic, just my experience.

 

The story which I read is that any insulin resistance is reversed once more carbs are added. In my case, even slowly adding more carbs over a period of a couple weeks, weeks later than that, and I  am still having spikes of BG up to 140 to 170 post postprandial. I can not remember ever going as high as 170 in the past. I am heading back towards Ketosis again for now.

 

This might all be coincidental, as over the years my fasting BG was creeping up into the 100-105 level at the point I finally went lower carb.

 

A1C 5.5 5.5 5.7 (5.9 post low carb) (back into Ketosis, but perhaps confounding factors made the result lower than it would have been. 5.1)


Edited by Heisok, 21 December 2017 - 11:21 PM.


#73 jack black

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:28 PM

pardon my ignorance, but why not low caloric diet instead (balanced)?



#74 Nate-2004

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:30 AM

pardon my ignorance, but why not low caloric diet instead (balanced)?

 

Read thread from start.


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#75 jack black

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:23 PM

 

pardon my ignorance, but why not low caloric diet instead (balanced)?

 

Read thread from start.

 

 

I did read before asking and there is nothing on low calorie diet.

BTW, it's not "ketoginic" either.



#76 Believer

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 04:04 PM

The biggest trouble I have with the keto diet is the constant mineral deficiencies. Eating salt helps but I still lack minerals too rapidly. Especially potassium and magnesium. Eating spinach is rarely sufficient.


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#77 Nate-2004

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 04:17 PM

 

 

pardon my ignorance, but why not low caloric diet instead (balanced)?

 

Read thread from start.

 

 

I did read before asking and there is nothing on low calorie diet.

BTW, it's not "ketoginic" either.

 

 

Of course there's nothing about low calorie diet, this thread is on the benefits and pitfalls of a ketogenic diet. You wanted to know why not just a simple low calorie diet, I posted two or three YouTube videos earlier explaining why. We also discussed the benefits of keto which implicitly addresses the issues with normal diets. You can infer from this thread quite a bit about low calorie diets, even if they aren't mentioned.



#78 Nate-2004

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 04:20 PM

The biggest trouble I have with the keto diet is the constant mineral deficiencies. Eating salt helps but I still lack minerals too rapidly. Especially potassium and magnesium. Eating spinach is rarely sufficient.

 

This is a problem, but only a small one. It's not all that hard to take pills and get plenty of salt.

 

I take two chelated magnesium tabs twice a day with two potassium citrate tabs, and a 1000mg tums along with my regular 4000-8000 IU dose of vitamin D (calcium is not absorbed well without it). I put the salt on my food, iodized, it goes well with pretty much anything keto other than my keto smoothie.



#79 hakonbo

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:09 PM

Why you should do keto: https://www.the-scie...ealthier-Lives/

 

Longer life span, shorter sick span, better cognition. 

 

A comment to above: "Balanced diet" - what do that even mean? I prefer a precise diet ;)

 

Nearly all mammals eat low carb. Predetors and even herbivores who ferment fibers into saturated fats in the guts. Omnivores are low carb too, but in the autumn many eat lots of carbs to put on weight to enter winter sleep or hibernation.  



#80 able

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 07:58 PM

Nate - It sounds like you are back on keto now?  Have you determined if that was likely responsible for diminished tremor symptoms?



#81 Nate-2004

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:42 PM

Holidays are over so yeah, back on Keto for another 21 days. I'm on and off of it because I can be more vigorous with it if I take breaks, but regularly checking blood ketone levels. Usually by 4 days into the diet it's up to therapeutic levels of 1.4 and after 8 days it's up to 3.0. I think berberine may actually speed up that process but that's just a theory.

 

I don't think it was Keto alone that was helping with tremor, it may be a combination of berberine, MCT oil AND keto. All three seem to do the magic of reducing tremor considerably. Regardless, I'll know by next Wednesday probably.


Edited by Nate-2004, 03 January 2018 - 08:44 PM.


#82 able

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 12:19 AM

Great.  

 

I  do all those as well, for anti-aging.

 

I believe you know that recent studies point to the BHB produced as result of keto diet being a key signaling molecule and likely a major factor in the beneficial effects.  

 

If that is so, the MCT oil would increase the effects as you produce more BHB.

 

Have you tried Ketone salts as well?  I add MCT oil to a glass of ketone salts in the morning, exercise, and wait at least a few hours before eating to max out ketones/BHB.  Very energizing.

 

 


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#83 normalizing

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 03:51 AM

i used to do bulletproof coffee and that felt like meth rush for hours i just had to quit it because it was driving me insane with the energy i was getting. im surprised people are so into this type keto energy, its absolutely abnormal in my opinion



#84 Nate-2004

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 04:20 AM

Always confuses me as to why people buy bulletproof coffee when they could just buy MCT oil and add it (or don't add it) to their coffee. I add about a TBSP to each cup. Again though, this is because of its synergistic effect on tremor with keto and apparently berberine.



#85 normalizing

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 05:08 AM

nate, i didnt say i buy those "bulletproof" that i see on the market. i was making my own bulletproof coffee. homemade espresso, zero sugar and i do not add MCT oil, but unsalted good quality butter. and it works amazingly! as i said, too much for me to handle actually as it feels like im on amphetamines and i cant stay still through the day and i have trouble sleeping. very potent stuff.



#86 Nate-2004

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 01:05 PM

Ah I see yeah, it does give me a lot of energy, I use heavy whipping cream (from grass fed cows) instead of butter. Lately (this week) I've been using "Better Half" coconut/almond milk creamer which is also zero sugar high fat. 

 

Apparently butter and heavy creams have the least amount of lactose as far as dairy goes.


Edited by Nate-2004, 05 January 2018 - 01:07 PM.


#87 Heisok

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 10:21 PM

Interesting. When I use butter, I tend to get a touch of bloating, maybe of fat, around my belly. I use carefully made Ghee/Clarified butter with C8 mct. No bloating. I have not found any store bought Ghee that tastes close to what I make myself. Since I got tired of trying to find a consistently good whole bean coffee for a French Press, so I switched to a European import instant. My understanding is that the EU has far higher standards for things like mycotoxins. I use Mount Hagen which I can usually get for around $6 to $7 per 3.5 ounce bottle. Price has been going up, I believe it is due to the weaker exchange rate for the U.S. dollar. Trying other sources. Look for other imports to go up, but some might have noticed it already.

 

Through the years, Even the founder of Bulletproof has indicated that buying high quality roasted beans is acceptable, although he might have changed his tune as they have expanded their business. I tried his coffee once, and disliked the taste. They do not disclose a COA of their C8,  and I stick with the highest purity C8 with a COA.

 

Nate, I forgot what your initial Ketogenic trial involved, although I do remember your initial long fast. Did you take the Berberine when you first started testing Keto?



#88 Believer

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 11:37 PM

Why you should do keto: https://www.the-scie...ealthier-Lives/

 

Longer life span, shorter sick span, better cognition. 

 

A comment to above: "Balanced diet" - what do that even mean? I prefer a precise diet ;)

 

Nearly all mammals eat low carb. Predetors and even herbivores who ferment fibers into saturated fats in the guts. Omnivores are low carb too, but in the autumn many eat lots of carbs to put on weight to enter winter sleep or hibernation.  

There is evidence for a LONGER life span on a low carb diet and evidence for a SHORTER life span. There is evidence for a LONGER life span on a low protein diet and evidence for SHORTER life span. Goes for literally every single of the three, carbs, protein and fat, and of the carbs, protein and fat, the different types have different evidence for each being bad and good.

There is no strong, convincing evidence that keto extends lifespan.

 

There are clearly many benefits to a keto diet but also many downsides that certain types of people do everything to throw under the carpet as is typical. The same goes for a high carb diet, downsides and upsides.

 

As for we not being meant to eat carbs, this is a load of crap easily proven false. We definitely were meant to eat carbs, carbs make us perform better in everything from physical to mental tasks. But just like anabolic hormones in our body, they make us perform better but may decrease how long we live (i.e. igf1, testosterone, etc.)

 


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#89 normalizing

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 04:46 AM

im curious as to why you think berberine does anything. ive tried mega doses for depression (as there are lots of studies saying its a potent antidepressant) but all i ended up with was a bad diarrhea with disgusting yellow feces. i really dont think berberine does much of anything and im curious nate, as to how do you know for sure it has any effect on you because as a herbal, it must be very subtle to notice really


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#90 Nate-2004

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 04:04 PM

im curious as to why you think berberine does anything. ive tried mega doses for depression (as there are lots of studies saying its a potent antidepressant) but all i ended up with was a bad diarrhea with disgusting yellow feces. i really dont think berberine does much of anything and im curious nate, as to how do you know for sure it has any effect on you because as a herbal, it must be very subtle to notice really

 

The inhibition of glutamate. This is another case of "the dose makes the poison". It is dose dependent. Only in low doses does it provide any benefit, in high doses it can have the opposite effect. 300 to 400mg is sufficient for an average weight person, thrice daily. The half life is 3 hrs so every 6 hrs or so. You can improve bioavailability with caprylic acid, which is coincidentally what MCT oil is made up of mostly, and why this combination may be synergistic.

 

Similar studies showed similar dose dependent results for Metformin like qualities.

 

 


Essential tremor (ET) is a progressive neurological disorder with motor and non-motor symptoms. It has conclusively been shown that modulation of glutamate receptors could ameliorate ET. Recent studies have suggested that Berberine (BBR) has an inhibitory effect on glutamate receptors. Therefore, BBR may have therapeutic effects on ET. In this study, male Wistar rats (n=10 in each group) weighing 40-60 g were divided into control, harmaline (30 mg/kg, i.p.) and berberine (10, 20 or 50mg/kg, i.p, 15 min before harmaline injection) groups. Open field, rotarod, wire grip and foot print tests were used to evaluate motor performance. The results indicated that the administration of BBR (10 and 20mg/kg) attenuated harmaline-induced tremor in rats, but the beneficial effects of BBR could not be identified at dose 50mg/kg. In addition, BBR ameliorated gait disturbance in doses of 10 and 20mg/kg. The high dose of BBR not only failed to recover step width but also showed an adverse effect on left and right step length. The results indicate that BBR only in dose of 20mg/kg recovers mobility duration. The current study found a dose-dependent manner for the therapeutic effects of BBR in ET. Our study provides the initial evidence for the effects of BBR on motor function. Since BBR exerts its effects mainly through regulation of neurotransmitter release or blocke of NMDA receptors, thus, it is predicted that BBR ameliorate harmaline effect through blockade of NMDA receptors or glutamate release. This is an important issue for future research to evaluate the possible mechanisms involved.

 


Edited by Nate-2004, 06 January 2018 - 04:08 PM.

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