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Dr Kruse: thermogenesis

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#1 Recortes

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 08:47 PM


I've decided to post here cause it's the most read sub-forum, and everyone concerned with life quality and life extension must know this.

To the point. Why there are no tons of threads talking about the most impressive theory on life extension ever published on internet?.

Guys, this man is telling the world that Ketogenic diet+Cold adaptation+respect of Circadian rhythms will extend your telomeres!.

Guys, Arthur the Vany, and Doug McGuff are seriously impressed!.



http://jackkruse.com/jacks-blog/


Enjoy.
Warning: you'll spend many hours reading his blog entries.
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#2 8bitmore

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:12 PM

Maybe a mod should move this to the Aging Theories sub-forum? Anyway, that seems like an incredibly long, ranting and non-obvious way of communicating a theory (might also just be my problematic not-living-in-a-cold-chamber-eating-beef self that can not take it in with the speed and efficiency needed......)

Would it be possible for you to summarize why this theory should be listened to beyond the "its awesome beyond belief"-take?

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#3 Recortes

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:24 PM

Maybe a mod should move this to the Aging Theories sub-forum? Anyway, that seems like an incredibly long, ranting and non-obvious way of communicating a theory (might also just be my problematic not-living-in-a-cold-chamber-eating-beef self that can not take it in with the speed and efficiency needed......)

Would it be possible for you to summarize why this theory should be listened to beyond the "its awesome beyond belief"-take?


Man, I already summarized twitter style: keto+cold+circadian

I gave the link, and put in alert, what you make of all of that is your option. If you have read what I read you should know why "this theory should be listened ", at least you think you are more knowledgeble and smart than De Vany or

McGuff.


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#4 smithx

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:41 AM

Without references to specific studies which back up these ideas, they're just someone's ideas.

The breathless writing and assurance in the absence of information to back the ideas does not inspire confidence.
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#5 Recortes

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

Without references to specific studies which back up these ideas, they're just someone's ideas.


there are references, but you have to dig to find them.


The breathless writing and assurance in the absence of information to back the ideas does not inspire confidence.


Obvioulsy the guy is not a scientist and writing is not his strong point. But he's a real doctor, so he probably knows a bit better that some
scientists that write articles with tons of references about silly in-vitro studies.

Finally, it's not my job convince anyone and I have more interesting things to do. Use your brain. I just felt the moral obligation to point out to the people here something very interesting.
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#6 niner

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:07 PM

I stumbled upon Jack Kruse a while back, and have been meaning to post about him. I think he is on to something big. Of all the health bloggers and paleo writers out there, one thing is for sure about Jack: He is the worst god damn writer of the bunch! Man, does he need an editor. That said, his work with cold adaptation and its effects on biology is amazing. You know how every time you turn around, you hear about the Kitavan and the Masai? How come no one ever talks about the Sherpa? I think you are going to start hearing more about therm. I'd like to hear what people think of Kruse's ideas. I don't think he's right about everything, but it looks like he may be right about some big things. That might be driving what sounds like a bit of a mania that I hear in his voice; he thinks that he's found something very important, and he's trying to show it to the world. Usually, that's the mark of a crazy person, but this time, maybe not.

Recortes, thanks for bringing this to our attention.
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#7 Recortes

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 04:12 PM

I stumbled upon Jack Kruse a while back, and have been meaning to post about him. I think he is on to something big. Of all the health bloggers and paleo writers out there, one thing is for sure about Jack: He is the worst god damn writer of the bunch! Man, does he need an editor. That said, his work with cold adaptation and its effects on biology is amazing. You know how every time you turn around, you hear about the Kitavan and the Masai? How come no one ever talks about the Sherpa? I think you are going to start hearing more about therm. I'd like to hear what people think of Kruse's ideas. I don't think he's right about everything, but it looks like he may be right about some big things. That might be driving what sounds like a bit of a mania that I hear in his voice; he thinks that he's found something very important, and he's trying to show it to the world. Usually, that's the mark of a crazy person, but this time, maybe not.

Recortes, thanks for bringing this to our attention.


I might be wrong, but definitively I think he has found something no big but huge. If he's right, and there is much pointing to that, CRON will be joke compared to what his whole picture can bring. The biggest hit since 'paleo' prefix came to light.

I'm looking forward to his book. The proof that his hypohtesis about the leptin-melanocortin pathway is not a charlatan idea, is how impressed De Vany is. He knows biochemestry for sure, and according to him he has been testing his theory on himself, his familly and finally his patients for many years. He's and stablished neurosurgeon, so he knows that he has more to lose than to gain if he's not right.

Edited by Recortes, 11 March 2012 - 04:13 PM.


#8 xEva

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 05:00 PM

I rather think that this thread belongs in caloric restriction subforum. It's difficult to read him. I wish there was a well-worded concise summary instead of that long list of repeating in content paragraphs peppered with exclamation marks. Perhaps somebody here can provide it, please?


I wanted to collaborate what he is writing with my subjective experience of fasting. Some "miraculous" metabolic aspects of it started to puzzle me lately, and it seems that Dr Kruse has explanation for it.

In my experience, it is much easier to fast during winter than summer. Once I start fasting, I begin to seek cold. I thought that was because it is easier to extract O2 from the cold air, and upregulated mitochondiral metabolism requires more O2, plus ketones are formed with exogenous O2. So, in order to get all that O2 I am compelled to run outside at least twice a day, otherwise I start feeling starved for energy.

So, the paradox was that in order to get energy, I needed to spend energy by running in cold weather. And while my muscles may get tired after all that running in the end of the day, I feel much more energized overall than if I had not run. I don't feel hungry, or can be easily satisfied with, say a grapefruit, once in 2 days, which gives me tremendous energy (to run some more, lol).

And so the only absolute requirement for all this metabolic strangeness is cold weather (but not too cold, -5 to -10C seems ideal). In fact many fasters on a Russian fasting forum that I frequent also write how delicious cold winter air is, that simply breathing it, while being active --to get more O2 out of it, I thought-- is nurturing and fully replaces a meal. Also, it feels as if naked skin breathes too and often there is a desire to take off the clothes, especially if they contain some man-made materials that impede ion exchange of skin with the air.


So, what is he saying, that, other than cold itself, all is due to hCG?



.

Edited by xEva, 11 March 2012 - 05:02 PM.


#9 Recortes

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 05:20 PM

So, what is he saying, that, other than cold itself, all is due to hCG?



.


As I understand he thinks hCG, CRON, or Ketogenic are just pieces of a bigger methabolic pathway, the leptin-melanocortin , and becuase of that they just work partially, but all the pieces must be joined to get optimal longetiviy. The way to do that is activating the whole leptin-melanocortin pathway with cold without sabotaging it with carbohydrates in winter. According to him, once one get cold adapted with suitable diet the caloric restriction with their benefits comes naturally, without effort.

#10 niner

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:36 PM

I've avoided doing CRON because it seems to difficult to work into a normal life with a family and socializing. It sounds like Kruse has a 'super-CRON', but it means I have to be ketogenic? Uhh... And how cold do I have to be in order to get cold adapted? Do I have to swim in freezing water, or just go outside without a jacket? I already have very little body fat, so it's not like I need to lose weight. I've slogged through a lot of Kruse's stream-of-consciouness raving. xEva is right; we need a concise summary. It must exist somewhere.

Hey, Look what I found! This is the cold adaptation protocol. It's not trivial.

#11 xEva

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 10:10 PM

According to him, once one get cold adapted with suitable diet the caloric restriction with their benefits comes naturally, without effort. [/font]


Interesting. But according to my experience and some others, first you start fasting and then you don't need to adapt to cold. Instead you seek it naturally, because, frankly, you feel like crap in a warm stuffy room; there is no enough air. But once you get out, winter air is like manna. And the colder the better; it gives you energy (to a point, of course, like -50C that was this winter in Buriatia, everyone said that was a bit too much, lol)


I've avoided doing CRON because it seems to difficult to work into a normal life with a family and socializing. It sounds like Kruse has a 'super-CRON', but it means I have to be ketogenic? Uhh... And how cold do I have to be in order to get cold adapted? Do I have to swim in freezing water, or just go outside without a jacket? I already have very little body fat, so it's not like I need to lose weight.


Niner, no there is no need to become ketotic. There is a sweet spot in plasma pH, maintained with some essential amino acids and a bit of carbs now and then (for me it's grapegruits). From what I could gather (I'm still in the process), the metabolic markers are similar to a hibernating bear, who has high amino acid turnover without loosing any muscle and he is not in ketosis despite being fed by his fat. His body temp is almost normal too, unlike most other hibernating mammals.

As for the adaptation to cold, here is some Russian pictures to get you started:

I like this one is the best, but its extension is not allowed here: http://photopolygon....0/31662.jpg.700

Posted Image


Posted Image



#12 X_Danny_X

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:50 PM

I just found about this. So let me get this straight. I have to eat carbs in the spring and summer along with protein and meat. In fall and winter eat only protien and meat. Like our ancestors who were cold adapted.

then in using cold adapt, you have to bring your skin to 50-55 degrees with a bath tub and have ice packs.

im confused about Leptin sensitivity.

#13 hbar

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:19 AM

Aside from the ridiculous writing style (sorry, a neurosurgeon should be able to do way better than that) and over-the-top hyperbole (running a marathon with no training? yeah ok), his ideas seem to rest on our evolutionary development to depend on cold, yet...the first human beings lived in regions of Africa which were warm year-round. I know using lots of technical terms makes you sound intelligent, but all that blog does is make him look like another snake oil salesman touting the latest and greatest cure for everything.

#14 niner

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:37 AM

his ideas seem to rest on our evolutionary development to depend on cold, yet...the first human beings lived in regions of Africa which were warm year-round.


Agree on the communication deficit. It's a problem. However, he's not saying we depend on cold. He's saying that mammals have a cold adaptation program that can be activated. You have to consider the huge numbers of mammals in arctic climates, or in particular, the Inuit or Sherpa peoples. Also consider the clinical success of cryolipolysis now commercialized by Zeltiq. I think there's really something to this. I'm less sure that it's something I could do

Many of today's mammals derive from a line that made it through some number of ice ages, not to mention winters. Life evolved in the oceans, which may have required a high level of thermogenesis.

Edited by niner, 17 March 2012 - 07:09 PM.


#15 X_Danny_X

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 06:03 PM

Aside from the ridiculous writing style (sorry, a neurosurgeon should be able to do way better than that) and over-the-top hyperbole (running a marathon with no training? yeah ok), his ideas seem to rest on our evolutionary development to depend on cold, yet...the first human beings lived in regions of Africa which were warm year-round. I know using lots of technical terms makes you sound intelligent, but all that blog does is make him look like another snake oil salesman touting the latest and greatest cure for everything.



Humans migrated from Africa all the way to the COLD regions of the North American continent, crossing the Bering straight. He is saying we have mixed adaption of cold adapt and warm adapt. It seems that in order to extend life, you have to make your body cold adapt. Also to become stronger or be like a superhuman, you have to be cold adapt and not warm. He mentions this is all in theory but the more he studies it and he tested it on himself and his son, the more he backs up the theory of us needing to be cold adapted and eat like our ancestors did during the winder months.

He is legit man and attends the Paleo summit. He is alot of things but certainly not a snake or a con that is going after your money.

#16 xEva

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:57 PM

Well.. The summary niner linked to above was not :sad: So I did some reading on the leptin-melanocortin pathway and Dr Kruse thermogenesis and here is what I got. Please correct whatever is wrong. I want to get it right.

Before I begin, it's worth mentioning that the endless entry linked at the top of the thread may not be the best intro to Dr Kruse. He appears a bit manic there. Elsewhere in his blog he sounds more rational, and even better in audio with Jimmy Moore. Not sure what to attribute his mania to. Maybe it's success getting into his head? Or it could be due to fluctuations in his level of ketosis -- I know my brain just adores 'em ketones :) the mind then just flies off in a rush of inspiration. Very good for brainstorming but not so good for giving concise rational explanations.

Re leptin and melanocortin system, below are some quotes for those who may want to refresh their memory:

The neural melanocortin system controls body weight. It is now understood to comprise a series of peptides derived from proopiomelanocortin (POMC), including adrenocorticotrophin, endorphins, and melanocyte–stimulating hormone (MSH), that bind to at least 5 specific receptors. Thus the α-melanocyte–stimulating hormone (α-MSH) derived from POMC acts on melanocortin-4 receptors to decrease appetite.

POMC action is balanced by another melanocortin, the neuropeptide Y (NPY), which is a neurotransmitter secreted by the hypothalamus. NPY is associated with a number of physiologic processes in the brain, including the regulation of energy balance, memory and learning. Higher NPY correlates with decreased physical activity and increases in food intake and the proportion of energy stored as fat.

Posted Image

Leptin is a hormone secreted by adipose tissue. It plays an important role in regulation of body weight through regulation of food intake and sympathetically mediated thermogenesis. Leptin has many effects on the body, including regulation of reproduction. One of its many actions is to stimulate release of melanocyte-stimulating hormone, which, as stated above, binds to melanocortin-4 receptors to increase energy expenditure. Leptin also binds to NPY neurons thus decreasing their activity. That's how leptin plugs into the melanocortin pathway.

In a simple negative feedback model, increased leptin signaling not only reduces appetite but also activates sympathetic outflows to white adipose tissue to increase lipolysis and the availability of circulating fatty acids (FAs) and to brown adipose tissue (BAT) to stimulate mitochondrial oxidation of FAs, together reducing white adipose tissue mass (WAT).



Now, Dr Kruse believes that overweight people are leptin resistant (LR in his blog), that despite high levels of circulating leptin, they are often hungry, tend to be cold, and have hard time trying to loose weight. In order to restore their leptin sensitivity (LS in his blog), he proposes to upregulate their leptin-melanocortin pathway via his Cold Thermogenesis Protocol, which consists of various measures aimed at gradual habituation and adaptation to cold.

Dr Kruse believes that most modern diseases of metabolism are due to dysregulation of suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), a tiny region of the brain, situated directly above the optic chiasm, that controls circadian rhythms and metabolic modes that go with each phase of a cycle. In his words, controlled by SCN, "mammalian biochemistry is entrained" not only by diurnal and annual fluctuations of light but also annual fluctuations in temperature. Accodring to him, evolutionarily programmed seasonal adaptation to cold is the missing link in our understanding of metabolism.

He believes that in cold weather, SCN, that master-circadian rhythm controller, activates leptin-melanocortin pathway, by upregulating POMC and downregulating NPY, which naturally leads to diminished appetite (especially cravings for carbs -- there is no carbs in winter!), while increasing lipolysis, physical activity and thermogenesis.

His insight is that by changing our environment with warm clothes and heated houses, the modern man undermined his paleolithic programming. Thus he states that type 2 diabetes "is not a disease. It is how mammals signal for the coming winter." and that "Diabetes is not a disease. It is normal physiology missing winter. Cold is what reverses their metabolic syndrome completely."

That's the gist of it.

In his "Holly Trinity" he also includes hCG (pregnancy hormone touted to curb appetite while increasing lipolysis and protecting muscle from degradation on a very low calorie diet). I could not find anything legit on hCG nor how it ties to the leptin-melanocortin pathway. Dr Kruse himself does not elucidate it either -- or maybe I missed it? At the moment hCG diet is the most popular weight reduction method, and its inclusion in his "Holly Trinity" may simply be his tribute to fashion -?

Overall, I like very much this idea about cold influencing metabolism and especially agree with him that at the moment we don't know enough about metabolism nor how it is shaped by annual circadian rhythms. My impression is that trying to complete the puzzle, Dr Kruse is forced to make do with a limited number of pieces available to him. I also think he is unduly fixated on leptin and at times gives it more credit than it actually deserves. Thus in several places in his blog he states that leptin directly causes adipocyte apoptosis, which IMO is patently wrong. It seems he bases it entirely on another popular fat reduction method that freezes fat, actually killing the fat cells.


I have more to add, but would like to make sure that I got it right thus far.
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#17 Recortes

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:20 PM

He has been the greatest hit on the PaleoFX conference. Still some mediocre people doing mediocre comments...

#18 Recortes

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:46 PM

Well.. The summary niner linked to above was not :sad: So I did some reading on the leptin-melanocortin pathway and Dr Kruse thermogenesis and here is what I got. Please correct whatever is wrong. I want to get it right.

Before I begin, it's worth mentioning that the endless entry linked at the top of the thread may not be the best intro to Dr Kruse. He appears a bit manic there. Elsewhere in his blog he sounds more rational, and even better in audio with Jimmy Moore. Not sure what to attribute his mania to. Maybe it's success getting into his head? Or it could be due to fluctuations in his level of ketosis -- I know my brain just adores 'em ketones :) the mind then just flies off in a rush of inspiration. Very good for brainstorming but not so good for giving concise rational explanations.

Re leptin and melanocortin system, below are some quotes for those who may want to refresh their memory:


xEva,

the first part of this interview is what you need

http://joanneunleash...rgy-and-weight/

It's impressive the description he makes.

BTW It's a shame I can get only about 80% of spoken English, cause I miss often important stuff.

xEva, btw, I congratulate you cause you are one of the few that gets that there is something with Kruse. The lack of appreciation at imminst has been very disappointing to me.

#19 Logan

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:35 PM

During the winter, I take 7 to 10 minute freezing cold showers everyday. Granted, this is usually after I hit the steamroom for about 12 to 15 minutes. I have to say, that after rotating to each part of the upper body, letting cold water hit until it starts to feel very uncomfortable, and doing this for about 7 minutes, I start to feel this warmth come over me, and I begin to feel moderately euphoric. I fucking love it, and wish I could have access to a cold shower year round. Therapeutically, it's one of the best things I could do for myself. I feel so good afterwards-especially if I had a good workout and steam prior. I really do think heating up in the steamroom, and getting my heart rate going, adds to my body's ability to reap the benefits of my cold water immersion shower. Oh well, with this early spring, and nearly early summer, I will have to say goodbye to my cold water showers very soon. I'm so sad :(

#20 Logan

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:37 PM

I feel like I'm naturally thermogenic. I am warm often and do not get cold in the winter very easily. I almost need cold showers. I won't be turning on the warm water this summer for most of the showers I take.

#21 Logan

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:38 PM

Great point about our ancestors niner. I really don't see how we could benefit cold water adaptation, or even heat adaptation, as any different than exercise. Aren't these all simply examples of hormesis and it's benefits?

#22 xEva

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:36 PM

xEva,

the first part of this interview is what you need

http://joanneunleash...rgy-and-weight/

It's impressive the description he makes.


I can't get it without registering with them.


BTW It's a shame I can get only about 80% of spoken English, cause I miss often important stuff.

xEva, btw, I congratulate you cause you are one of the few that gets that there is something with Kruse. The lack of appreciation at imminst has been very disappointing to me.


this may be the key to your appreciation of Dr Kruse. I can barely stand his manner of expressing himself.

And the worst part is that less than half of what he haphazardly lays out can be independently validated. I am interested in his ideas only as long as I can confirm them elsewhere, especially because some of his notions are plainly wrong -- which makes one naturally suspect that some others may be wrong too.


Besides, cold adaptation may be something new and revolutionary to a guy living in 21C in Tennessee or Spain, but it's nothing new in the colder parts of the world. Also, people forget that the famous in the 19C "Water Cure" was actually cold water cure. It was one of the most popular health improvement measures for a long time. And it was popular until not that long ago. A film (Chariots of Fire -?) showed a part of a morning routine for English schoolboys in the beginning of the 20th C: one had to jump into and swim to the other side of a smallish pool with chunks of ice bobbing on the sides.

There was a Russian, Galina Shatalova, also a neurosurgeon, by the way, of whom I wrote once on this forum. She claimed to live off 600 kcal/day and taught others do it too. She did not attribute her very low calorie diet solely to cold adaptation though, possibly because that's nothing unusual in Russia. Training in the cold is a normal part of healthy lifestyle in Russia, and Sharalova employed it too. The diet she advocated was vegetarian based on grains. She died last Nov at the age of 95.

Here is Shatalova in 1987, when she was 71:

Posted Image


I got interested in what Dr Kruse was saying because of the personal experience. I will post about it later.


.

Edited by xEva, 20 March 2012 - 07:52 PM.


#23 xEva

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:20 PM

Dr Kruse has delighted us with yet another endless post, far more coherent this time and backed with more than a hundred "cites", as if challenging the doggedly inclined geeks among us to get him if we can: http://jackkruse.com...hermogenesis-7/ The gist of the post boils down to the importance of circadian rhythms in regulation of metabolism. In the endless succession of paragraphs this message is reiterated with minor variations in the manner of Leo Tolstoy determined to impart on a reader the horror of war.

It so happened that I was just reading about a Russian maverick, a peasant Porphyry Ivanov, who promoted the same message, albeit succinctly and in plain terms. In order to restore health, he called to let go of trappings of civilization and get close to nature. Thus in the last 50 years of his life he wore only short pants, in all seasons:

Posted Image


During his life he attracted quite a following and after his death in the 1980s (age 85) spawned at least two rivaling sects, who reverently call him The Teacher, in addition to inspiring countless independent devotees throughout the vast expanses of Russia. His major appeal was in his call to embrace nature. He healed with cold and advocated moderation in diet (which is hard to assess since he probably did not even know what a calorie was, let alone counted them). His advice in moderation in diet he coupled with frequent fasts: weekly 1-2 day fasts and the longer ones that he tied to the traditional fasts in the calendar of the Russian Orthodox Church.

At the height of his popularity, not unilke Dr Kruse, he promised to his followers eternal youth and maybe even life. Alas, Porphyry Ivanov died of the complications of a long-standing infection that he could not heal with cold. Always barefoot, a year or two before his death he cut his foot. You can see his right leg swollen on the photo above. From what I could gather, he died of sepsis aggravated by flu. It seems his immune sys finally took a dip bringing his life to an end.


And so, returning to Dr Kruse and his Cold Thermogenesis and Leptin Reset protocols, it's hard to argue with the apparent success of his methods among the overweight in his following. Especially since the principles on which they stand, in addition to being intuitively appealing, can be backed by historical anecdotes. As a geek though, I am bothered by his apparent disrespect to a reader: I took a few random shots at his post and saw that he simply piled up whatever quotes google gave for circadian rhythms, apparently with the sole aim to impress. His distinct style readily exposed his own contributions too, one of them being the following:

Cold temperatures sensitize us to leptin by causing it to be released from fat cells over time leading to a lower level in the blood chronically. Low temperatures also cause us to increase our RER, while eating a low calorie diet and still maintaining our lean skeletal muscle mass. These findings show that during very low-calorie diets, and low temperatures , are a stimulant of a FAS inhibitor, like leptin, and would raise malonyl-CoA levels, while decreasing the expression of NPY and AgRP. Clinically this results in sustained satiation for longer periods of time with less food.


Hello? Translated to plain terms, this means that, in the cold, while eating less and spending more (for thermogenesis), one is satisfied with less food while rewarded with more energy. Unfortunately, his generous sprinkling of the terms from molecular biology does not elucidate the actual mechanism that permits this metabolically free lunch.

That's why I am disappointed with Dr Kruse. He failed to explain the metabolic mystery that intrigued me in my personal experience. And so I go back to my old hypothesis that upregulation of mitochondrial metabolism is responsible for both the marked increase in demand for O2 and drastically cut calories, while subjectively feeling warm --nay, hot!-- despite the actual decrease in body temperature.

That's right. The body temperature goes down on low calories in the cold. It is reported in the literature and is confirmed by anecdotal experiences, including mine. It is common for fasters to feel hot, especially on dry fasts, but the very few who actually bothered to check their temperature with a thermometer, reported that instead of the expected rise, they saw not even normal, but lower than normal temperatures.

On this ends my interest in what Dr Kruse has to say. My BMI throughout my adult life has always naturally gravitated to 19-20, which I guess makes me superbly "leptin sensitive" in his terms. ......which in no way was meant to diminish his contribution for all those who may benefit from his protocols.

Edited by xEva, 23 March 2012 - 07:49 PM.


#24 smithx

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:15 AM

It's well known (among physical anthropologists, at least) that different groups of modern humans have very different cold adaptations. See, for example:

http://www.jniosh.go...IH_47_3_221.pdf
http://anthro.paloma...pt/adapt_2.htm
http://pubs.aina.uca...tic44-2-139.pdf

The fact that the adaptations are so different in different subgroups implies that even if what Kruse is saying is true about some subgroups, it is likely not to be true for all.

Edit: Fixed broken links

Edited by niner, 25 March 2012 - 04:15 AM.


#25 Recortes

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:41 PM

Dr Kruse has delighted us with yet another endless post, far more coherent this time and backed with more than a hundred "cites", as if challenging the doggedly inclined geeks among us to get him if we can: http://jackkruse.com...hermogenesis-7/ The gist of the post boils down to the importance of circadian rhythms in regulation of metabolism. In the endless succession of paragraphs this message is reiterated with minor variations in the manner of Leo Tolstoy determined to impart on a reader the horror of war.

It so happened that I was just reading about a Russian maverick, a peasant Porphyry Ivanov, who promoted the same message, albeit succinctly and in plain terms. In order to restore health, he called to let go of trappings of civilization and get close to nature. Thus in the last 50 years of his life he wore only short pants, in all seasons:

Posted Image


During his life he attracted quite a following and after his death in the 1980s (age 85) spawned at least two rivaling sects, who reverently call him The Teacher, in addition to inspiring countless independent devotees throughout the vast expanses of Russia. His major appeal was in his call to embrace nature. He healed with cold and advocated moderation in diet (which is hard to assess since he probably did not even know what a calorie was, let alone counted them). His advice in moderation in diet he coupled with frequent fasts: weekly 1-2 day fasts and the longer ones that he tied to the traditional fasts in the calendar of the Russian Orthodox Church.

At the height of his popularity, not unilke Dr Kruse, he promised to his followers eternal youth and maybe even life. Alas, Porphyry Ivanov died of the complications of a long-standing infection that he could not heal with cold. Always barefoot, a year or two before his death he cut his foot. You can see his right leg swollen on the photo above. From what I could gather, he died of sepsis aggravated by flu. It seems his immune sys finally took a dip bringing his life to an end.


And so, returning to Dr Kruse and his Cold Thermogenesis and Leptin Reset protocols, it's hard to argue with the apparent success of his methods among the overweight in his following. Especially since the principles on which they stand, in addition to being intuitively appealing, can be backed by historical anecdotes. As a geek though, I am bothered by his apparent disrespect to a reader: I took a few random shots at his post and saw that he simply piled up whatever quotes google gave for circadian rhythms, apparently with the sole aim to impress. His distinct style readily exposed his own contributions too, one of them being the following:

Cold temperatures sensitize us to leptin by causing it to be released from fat cells over time leading to a lower level in the blood chronically. Low temperatures also cause us to increase our RER, while eating a low calorie diet and still maintaining our lean skeletal muscle mass. These findings show that during very low-calorie diets, and low temperatures , are a stimulant of a FAS inhibitor, like leptin, and would raise malonyl-CoA levels, while decreasing the expression of NPY and AgRP. Clinically this results in sustained satiation for longer periods of time with less food.


Hello? Translated to plain terms, this means that, in the cold, while eating less and spending more (for thermogenesis), one is satisfied with less food while rewarded with more energy. Unfortunately, his generous sprinkling of the terms from molecular biology does not elucidate the actual mechanism that permits this metabolically free lunch.

That's why I am disappointed with Dr Kruse. He failed to explain the metabolic mystery that intrigued me in my personal experience. And so I go back to my old hypothesis that upregulation of mitochondrial metabolism is responsible for both the marked increase in demand for O2 and drastically cut calories, while subjectively feeling warm --nay, hot!-- despite the actual decrease in body temperature.

That's right. The body temperature goes down on low calories in the cold. It is reported in the literature and is confirmed by anecdotal experiences, including mine. It is common for fasters to feel hot, especially on dry fasts, but the very few who actually bothered to check their temperature with a thermometer, reported that instead of the expected rise, they saw not even normal, but lower than normal temperatures.

On this ends my interest in what Dr Kruse has to say. My BMI throughout my adult life has always naturally gravitated to 19-20, which I guess makes me superbly "leptin sensitive" in his terms. ......which in no way was meant to diminish his contribution for all those who may benefit from his protocols.


Xeva,

this post with the history of the Russian 'maverick' is a jewel. Really enjoyed reading it. I'm tempted to post it on Kruse's forum...

Anyway, if you look for nonsense, take a look at this "When leptin allows this uncoupling to occur we make heat and not energy from normal metabolism. ". Any undergraduate student of science knows heat is energy.



It's clear Kruse won't get either the Nobel Prize of Physics or Literature. However, in spite of that he has new ideas, his combo: cyrcadian+CT+keto is new on the blogosphere, and worth a look. In addition, if you listen to his answers to medical questions on the comment section, it's clear he knows about his practice and medicine. He knows what supplements work, he knows symptoms, he knows how to read blood works. Finally, if this statements about telomore lenghts are true, well we can forgive him all the human weakness.






#26 Logan

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:56 PM

It's well known (among physical anthropologists, at least) that different groups of modern humans have very different cold adaptations. See, for example:

http://www.jniosh.go.../IH_47_3_221.pd
http://anthro.paloma...pt/adapt_2.htm.
http://pubs.aina.uca...tic44-2-139.pdf

The fact that the adaptations are so different in different subgroups implies that even if what Kruse is saying is true about some subgroups, it is likely not to be true for all.


It is likely to be beneficial for all. Got Hormesis???

Let's all not be a bunch of wusses and get asses in the cold. Everyone has the ability to adapt and benefit.

#27 xEva

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:57 PM

It's well known (among physical anthropologists, at least) that different groups of modern humans have very different cold adaptations. See, for example:

http://www.jniosh.go.../IH_47_3_221.pd
http://anthro.paloma...pt/adapt_2.htm.
http://pubs.aina.uca...tic44-2-139.pdf

The fact that the adaptations are so different in different subgroups implies that even if what Kruse is saying is true about some subgroups, it is likely not to be true for all.


smithx, those sound like interesting papers, but only the last one opens for me, the first two give 404 not found error -?

It's hard for me to agree with your statement though. Whatever the group, we're all the same species => have the same adaptations to the environment. The environment itself is different and drives the actual gene expression.

I think, given enough time and/or method, just about anyone of us can turn around and "adapt" to whatever conditions. How environment drives gene expression and with it, various metabolic modes, that's an interesting subject in itself, and that's where, imo, the main contribution of Dr Kruse lies: he researched, developed and tested a method that can change what genes are expressed. That's a biggie in my eyes.

#28 xEva

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:45 PM

Xeva,

this post with the history of the Russian 'maverick' is a jewel. Really enjoyed reading it. I'm tempted to post it on Kruse's forum...

Anyway, if you look for nonsense, take a look at this "When leptin allows this uncoupling to occur we make heat and not energy from normal metabolism. ". Any undergraduate student of science knows heat is energy.



It's clear Kruse won't get either the Nobel Prize of Physics or Literature. However, in spite of that he has new ideas, his combo: cyrcadian+CT+keto is new on the blogosphere, and worth a look. In addition, if you listen to his answers to medical questions on the comment section, it's clear he knows about his practice and medicine. He knows what supplements work, he knows symptoms, he knows how to read blood works. Finally, if this statements about telomore lenghts are true, well we can forgive him all the human weakness.





Recortes, glad you liked Porphyry Ivanov's story. Re Dr Kruse, he may not know enough about metabolism --yet-- but his hunches are right on. Thus all things mitochondrial, uncoupling proteins included, do matter in a metabolic phenomenon that he raves about in his blog (where he says that only he and Wim Hof live it). It may sound like anathema for an overweight person struggling with weight and unruly appetite, but this metabolic state does boil down to precisely this: one needs hardly any food and yet has plenty of energy, all the while feeling balmy warm in all weather and all seasons. This phenomenon does exist. I hoped Dr Kruse could explain it, but I guess it's not easy. I wish more people would experience it and describe it.

#29 smithx

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:31 AM

Sorry for the malformed links. Here they are fixed:

http://www.jniosh.go.../IH_47_3_221.pdf
http://pubs.aina.uca...tic44-2-139.pdf
http://www.uic.edu/c...for Week 10.htm

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#30 Logan

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:06 AM

Sorry for the malformed links. Here they are fixed:

http://www.jniosh.go.../IH_47_3_221.pdf
http://pubs.aina.uca...tic44-2-139.pdf
http://www.uic.edu/c...20Week%2010.htm


Sure, some will have an easier time adapting to extreme temperatures and cold than others. This does not mean that those that don't have it in them to more easily adapt cannot still benefit from exposure of some degree.





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