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Ultimate Nootropic Stack - Completing the puzzle


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#1 Cephalon

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 05:44 PM


Hi everyone!

With this topic I will try to combine our recent research in one single stack.
Everyone is encouraged to contribute to this little collection!

1. Cron-o-meter & Exercise

Cognitive Enhancement is limited where there are deficiencies in essential nutrients.
In order to come up with your perfect stack you need to make sure you are not deficient in vitamins and minerals.
Therefore tracking your diet with a software like Cron-o-meter is a must. Deficiencies can easily be fixed with single vitamin and mineral supplements - as long as malabsorbtion is not your problem. Before supplementing one should always try to fix deficiencies with whole foods.

Also moderate exercise (running, swimming, light weight training) appears to be a must.

2. Supplements


CILTEP Stack: (term coined by Abelard Lindsay of Longecity)
500mg Artichoke Extract – contains Luteolin a PDE4 inhibitor
20mg Forskolin – raises c AMP levels

http://www.longecity...ly-induced-ltp/


Choline, Uridine, DHA (brought to public attention by MrHappy)
250mg CDP Choline
250mg Uridine – as UMP
4 gram DHA - from flax seed oil / need to avoid fish oil due to side effects

http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/

Peptides: Cerebrolysine / Noopept
Cerebrolysine
50mg Noopept 3 times daily

http://www.longecity...1-cerebrolysin/


Racetams (rotating)
1200mg Piracetam, 800mg Aniracetam, 750mg Oxiracetam, 500mg Pramiracetam

Stimulants:
Driven Sprots – Craze http://www.longecity...nootropic-damn/
Moodafinil
Oxiracetam

Medical Marijuana
Via a vaporizer – which avoids combustion and reduces cancer risk as much as 95%
Multiple benefits: protects brain cells from oxidative stress / neurotoxins. Possibly Acetylcholineesterase activity etc .


I will use this stack soon and report how I felt:


AM


500mg Artichoke Extract
20mg Forskolin


250mg CDP Choline
250mg Uridine
4 gram DHA

1200mg Piracetam

MD



500mg Artichoke Extract
20mg Forskolin


250mg CDP Choline
250mg Uridine
4 gram DHA

1200mg Piracetam

PM

Medical MJ




If this little stack works out fine I will phase in:

Aniracetam (PM) and Noopept AM and midday.

It has been theorized here: http://www.longecity...ly-induced-ltp/ that a dopamine precousor/ releasing agent may show synergy with the CILTEP stack. So I will experiment combining it with Craze by DS which is believed to contain amphetamin related substances.

Does anyone see any interactions? e.g. Modafinil with a PDE4 inhibitor?

Edited by Cephalon, 20 May 2012 - 05:50 PM.

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#2 health_nutty

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:15 PM

Why are you taking ani at night?

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#3 health_nutty

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 01:37 AM

This stack looks fantastic btw!

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#4 medievil

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 03:49 PM

*
POPULAR

My view on the ultimate stack:

1. The foundation supplements witch generally fully support health; id combine 2 max.
- Resveratrol
- Quercetin
- Ginseng
- Astragalus
- Gotu kola
- Curcumin
- Milk thistle
etc.

2. One or more of the racetams; i consider those the foundation supplements for cognitive enhancement; they act on glutamate and acetylcholine wich are highly implicated in cognition.
- Piracetam
- Aniracetam
- Oxiracetam
- Pramiracetam
- nefiracetam
- noopept

3. The racetam support supplements wich aid their effectiveness
- Fish oil
- L glutamic acid / glutamine / MSG
- Alcar or alternative choline sources

4. The CILTEP stack.
- A PDE inhibitor (Something thats also found in group one is recommened like quercetin or resveratrol if that one is a strong PDE inhibitor)
- A supplement to increase cAMP; forskolin is the standard one but we can look at group 2 where nefiracetam is a compound wich also increases cAMP.
- A dopamine increaser like amphetamine.

5. neurogenesis support
- Fish oil
- A choline source
- Uridine

6. Methylene blue wich should be synergetic and adds unique benefits.

Ill expand this post later on; i suspect the addition of pregnenolone would be highly beneficial too.

Edited by medievil, 21 May 2012 - 03:52 PM.

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#5 Cephalon

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 05:26 PM

Hey Guys!

Health Nutty & Medievil, your input is always appreciated, thanks!

Thanks for the compliments, but actually I just merged other peoples ideas to a prety raw stack - If I have some spare time I will try to include the explanation part and reveal possible synergies - I bet there are some :)

I use Aniracetam later in the day, since it spaces me out (Bacopa-ish) a bit: I'm more productive that way. But I won't go to bed right after taking it either. I find it realy nice to consolidate the stuff I studyied on when I was hyper - then with a calm and content mind.

Example: After taking Modafinil I would be prety stimulated - perfect condition to get a whole lot of reading done or taking old exams as a training. Later the day I would come down with my flat being full of papers, books, notes etc. Easy to loose the overview. It's good to have a learning shedule to keep on track. Here Aniracetam would come into play. It takes the edges of the overstimulated me off and clears my mind to do the administrative and the consolidation part.
Administration: Where were my weak points? What should I revise tomorrow? Where am I in regards to the shedule?
Consolidation: What was this authors oppinions - what were his arguments. What does this and that theory say?

I'm studying law, and Aniracetam appears to be perfect for the case work. Aniracetam seems to be supperior for problem solving - where as some other noots are better for getting a bunch of stuff done. If you are too hyper and you are trying to solve a case, you are easily overreading/ not getting important things. You need to imagine the scenario - relate to the participents - what is A's interest here - what is B's interest - what does C have to do with all this ... it's a bad mistake to easily jump on a wrong train, though things seemed obvious ... :) So for this application Aniracetam makes sense earlier in the day.


Hey Medievil

Your stack looks great - though I'm a bit afraid of Methylen Blue - I guess I'll wait until I can order it with iHerb/Vitacost in a pill. I feel strange going in the pet store, drinking the cleaning supplies ...
But for some reason I'm missing the special Medievil touch in your recommendation :) (it's prety compliant with national laws :) )
You are right about the PDEinhibitor! This stack can be reduced to just a very few supps, each supp being in the stack for multiple reasons then.
I noticed, that if I'd merge the "Ultimate Nootropic Stack" with my "Healthy Fat Loss Stack":

am:
500mg Resveratrol (Revgenetics Resveratrol Nitro 250 Licaps)
20mg DMAA (possible safty concern)
500mg Jarrow Green Tea extract
12.5mg Forskolin (Vitacost 10% Forskolin 125mg/caps extract)
100mg Raspberry Ketones (Vitacost Raspberry Ketones)
10mg PQQ LEF

http://www.longecity...ry-healthy-way/

It already has the Resveratrol in it (isn't resv. also a PDE4 inhibitor? too weak?)
It has the DMAA (DMAA is a dopamine releasing agent, isn't it´?)
And the Forskolin.

So the melange would be:

AM

500mg Artichoke Extract
500mg Resveratrol **
20mg Forskolin
20mg DMAA (Dopamin release?) / I don't use amphetamines
500mg Green Tea Extract (optional)


250mg CDP Choline*
250mg Uridine
4 gram DHA

1200mg Piracetam

MD

500mg Artichoke Extract

500mg Resveratrol
20mg Forskolin
20mg DMAA (Dopamin release?) / I don't use amphetamines
500mg Green Tea Extract (optional)

250mg CDP Choline
250mg Uridine
4 gram DHA

1200mg Piracetam



* Does it make sense to use CDP Choline? Wouldn't most of the Choline be bound to the Uridine from the exogenous CDP Choline again? I mean there won't be a point in supplementing Uridine then, right?

** Resveratrol does raise cAMP itself, by inhibiting phosphodiesterase, correct?


Sounds like alot synergies so far.


This stack has 4 application so far:

1. Cognitive Enhancement (CILTEP + CDP)
2. Fighting Cannabis Hangover/ temp. impairment (Forskolin - and 1. as a whole)
3. Fat loss
4. Resveratrol, Green Tea, Artichoke sounds overal prety healthy to me :)

Edited by Cephalon, 21 May 2012 - 05:49 PM.

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#6 Cephalon

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM

Guys you know what's missing? The whole neurotrophic factors story. Actually I liked the first stack for it's complexity :(

Noopept is belived to raise BDNF and NGF so this can be added for this purpose.
It then may be stacked with ALCAR and Lion's Mane.

I start feeling like this bodybuilding sales persons creating my proprietary mixture :)
(Aminoblast 3000 Matrix - Vasocharge Extreme Complex 2.0 - SR2 Iron Pump Imfusion ..:

But here it comes ... Cephalon's proprietary mix : the Ultimate! Just kidding ...


Mind:

CILTEP Stack 2.0
500mg Artichoke Extract (PDE4 I)
250mg Resveratrol (PDE4 I)

10mg Forskolin (cAMP ^)
10mg DMAA (Dopamine)


CDP Focus Blend
250mg CDP Choline
250mg Uridine
4 gram DHA


Neurobolic Growth System
50mg Noopept (BDNF / NGF)
500mg ALCAR (BDNF)
500mg Lion's Mane Mushroom (NGF)

AMPA - Activator (alternating)
1200mg Piracetam
750mg Oxiracetam
800mg Aniracetam

Body:

FAT Shred Matrix
250mg Resveratrol
250mg Green Tea Extract
10mg Forskolin (cAMP ^)
10mg DMAA (lypolysis^)

Male "enhancement" Blend
Resveratrol (Aromastase Inhibitor)
Forskolin (believed to raise testosterone via cAMP)
CDP-Choline (upregulating HPA axis hormones, such as LH and GH)
ALCAR (increasing sperm motIlity)



I count 14 supps now, while 3 of them will be rotated and some are optional.
If I'd cap and label this stuff (with even fancyer names) I would get pretty rich I guess : doesn't that sound like a Superman supplement?

Smart, Shredded, Good in Bed ... :)

Edited by Cephalon, 21 May 2012 - 06:59 PM.

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#7 owtsgmi

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:28 PM

Nice work, Cephalon and, of course, medievil! This stack is consistent with my views on what makes the ultimate stack - a nice summary of the compounded wisdom over the last few+ years. I like the fact that there are no prescription drugs in there and the side-effect profile for the lot is low as far as I can tell (and from experience).

I will second the earlier comments that this should be layered on top of a solid base of vitamins and minerals. As I travel further down this path of exploring the different brain supplements, I occassionally find "keepers" that aren't even discussed much in the brain health forums much, but fall in the category of basic supplementation - helping the entire body. The two newest ones for me right now are iodine and organic sulfur, and I have found them to be very good. They form the base, along with C, E, D, K, B vitamins, and minerals. Then, on top of this go most of the items in the above list.

I would tweak the above list a bit based on my experience. To me, nooept is arguably a racetam, so I would add that to the racetam group. And, since my choline of choice with my piracetam is ALCAR, I would skip the CDP-Choline. And, instead of artichoke, I am trying quercetin (we'll see how it works). But, all in all, this looks good and each person needs to tailor the list to what fits best.
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#8 Cephalon

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:00 PM

Hey Owtsgmi,

Thanks for the positive feedback !

Keep in mind ALCAR is not a choline source. It's just supposed to donate an acetyl group to form ACh from choline. Your body will take the choline by braking down brain membranes (phosphatidylcholine) if you dietary intakes are not sufficient. To complete the "CDP stack" you should have at least one choline source.
ALCAR is good to have in your regime for other reasons though.
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#9 Cephalon

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:04 PM

Is braking down brain membranes an issue? Piracetam enhances choline uptake afaik. Should we be concerned about our brain cannibalizing itself? It's like with protein intake to avoid catabolism ...
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#10 medievil

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:19 PM

If id design a ultimate stack for myself it would be:

Amphetamine
Treshold doses of a psychedelic; there's no tolerance to treshold doses.
A serotonine releaser like MDAI to enhance amp's effectiveness for my OCD.
Resveratrol
Aniracetam
Pramiracetam
nefiracetam
Alcar
Choline bitartrate
L glutamic acid
Fish oil
Methylene blue

This may be complete overkill tough; im trying to keep things minimal now; how big a stack can get ill have to find out but just thinking that there allways will be synergy that allways gets better togheter may just be wishfull thinking.

Edited by medievil, 22 May 2012 - 04:23 PM.

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#11 uglybuddy6

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:09 PM

Why Resveratrol? What about Pterostilbene it has many of the same effects that Resveratrol has but has a much higher bioavailability.
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#12 health_nutty

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:22 PM

Increasing ACh also has nootropic properties. You have this coverage with ALCAR and CDP-choline, but it would be good to point it out.

Racetams can further broken down into operating on AMPA or NMDA receptors.

The CILEPT stack works best with something to boost dopamine. I've been getting better results when I added L-tyrosine.

FYI, I tried 500mg of quercetin with the CILEPT stack and it completed kicked my butt. Waaay to strong. When I get more courage I'll try it at a lower dose.
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#13 DoomAndGloom

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 01:24 AM

I see some of you pointing out cannabis for its effects on neurogenesis, but what about the other effects on memory? I don't have much specific knowledge, but I know I've seen plenty of studies about it.

Perhaps you can point something out to me that I am unaware of?


Acute cannabinoids impair working memory through astroglial CB1 receptor modulation of hippocampal LTD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22385967

We conclude that the impairment of working memory by marijuana and cannabinoids is due to the activation of astroglial CB(1)R and is associated with astroglia-dependent hippocampal LTD in vivo.


Cannabidiol induces intracellular calcium elevation and cytotoxicity in oligodendrocytes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20645411

Together, these results suggest that cannabidiol causes intracellular Ca(2+) dysregulation which can lead to oligodendrocytes demise.



Cannabis-related deficits in real-world memory.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22389086

Multivariate analysis of variance revealed cannabis users performed worse overall on the task, with poor performance on the planning, time-based PM and event-based PM subscales. In addition, indices of cannabis (length, dose, frequency, total use) were correlated with performance on these three subscales.



Study on rats using a synthetic cannabinoid:
Short- and long-term cognitive effects of chronic cannabinoids administration in late-adolescence rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22348124

Our findings suggest that some forms of hippocampal-dependent short-term memory are sensitive to chronic cannabinoid administration but other cognitive impairments are temporary and probably result from a residue of cannabinoids in the brain or acute withdrawal effects from cannabinoids.


There are probably far more, but I figure we'll start with just a few.

Edited by DoomAndGloom, 23 May 2012 - 01:36 AM.

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#14 health_nutty

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:26 AM

I wouldn't take MJ for nootropic purposes. It does have it's uses however.

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#15 abelard lindsay

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:47 AM

FYI, I tried 500mg of quercetin with the CILEPT stack and it completed kicked my butt. Waaay to strong. When I get more courage I'll try it at a lower dose.


I've overdone it too with the Quercetin CILTEP stack. There's definitely a point where stuff goes from awesome to weird and somewhat disturbing. The good thing is that it goes away after a few hours. You should probably wait a day after doing that to let things settle back down to normal before starting up again.

*** Warning: Following is my personal experience, your mileage may vary, be careful about weird/strange effects at the high dosages, especially w/Quercetin, if you are a noobie at this whole nootropic thing, this is probably not for you ***

Despite the negative experiences I've had when I took too much Quercetin or redosed early, I still love this stack. I know just to not push my luck with the dosages and I stick to Artichoke now, which is much more predictable and shorter lasting. IMHO, the kind of intelligence it increases is more of a big picture planning, learning and imagining intelligence. It activates the part of my brain that after long periods of study suddenly "groks" the big picture and the structure of complicated concepts. Under normal conditions I think my brain can only jam bite sized pieces of understanding into LTP. With this stack I can swallow much larger "gulps of thoughts" involving complicated concepts.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 23 May 2012 - 03:49 AM.

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#16 DoomAndGloom

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:19 AM

I wouldn't take MJ for nootropic purposes. It does have it's uses however.


Hm, you're right. I did neglect the fact that it was noted as medical marijauna, which is my fault. In addition it does have its recreational benefits. Though I have noticed other people occasionally having it in their stacks, but I figure that is also a recreational thing. to a degree, too.

Edited by DoomAndGloom, 23 May 2012 - 04:25 AM.

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#17 abelard lindsay

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:15 AM

CILTEP Stack: (term coined by Abelard Lindsay of Longecity)
500mg Artichoke Extract – contains Luteolin a PDE4 inhibitor
20mg Forskolin – raises c AMP levels

http://www.longecity...ly-induced-ltp/
Racetams (rotating)
1200mg Piracetam, 800mg Aniracetam, 750mg Oxiracetam, 500mg Pramiracetam

Does anyone see any interactions? e.g. Modafinil with a PDE4 inhibitor?


On the other thread health_nutty reported a negative interaction with Aniracetam and CILTEP. Piracetam hasn't caused any problems for me when used with this stack. There's a study that shows that the effect of Aniracetam changes when LTP is induced (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9555053), so that's my best guess as to what's behind it.
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#18 health_nutty

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:22 AM


CILTEP Stack: (term coined by Abelard Lindsay of Longecity)
500mg Artichoke Extract – contains Luteolin a PDE4 inhibitor
20mg Forskolin – raises c AMP levels

http://www.longecity...ly-induced-ltp/
Racetams (rotating)
1200mg Piracetam, 800mg Aniracetam, 750mg Oxiracetam, 500mg Pramiracetam

Does anyone see any interactions? e.g. Modafinil with a PDE4 inhibitor?


On the other thread health_nutty reported a negative interaction with Aniracetam and CILTEP. Piracetam hasn't caused any problems for me when used with this stack. There's a study that shows that the effect of Aniracetam changes when LTP is induced (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9555053), so that's my best guess as to what's behind it.


Wow, what are the implication of that study?
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#19 abelard lindsay

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 06:01 AM

Wow, what are the implication of that study?


I'll attempt to translate it from incoherent molecular biology babble to english for you :).

The modulatory influence of aniracetam, a drug which reversibly modifies the kinetic properties of AMPA-type glutamate receptors, on synaptic responses is reported to be detectably changed by the induction of long-term potentiation (LTP).


So Aniracetam modifies chemical reactions at the AMPA receptor, which is associated with short term memory. The process of LTP (which CILTEP enhances) causes the nature of the modification of the AMPA receptor's chemical reactions by Aniracetam to change.

The present study used hippocampal slices to examine three issues arising from this result. First, possible contributions of inhibitory currents and postsynaptic spiking to the aniracetam/LTP interaction were investigated with infusions of GABA receptor antagonists and topical applications of tetrodotoxin. Second, tests were carried out to determine if the altered response to aniracetam is sufficiently persistent to be a plausible substrate for the extremely stable LTP effect.


So they took some slices of mouse brain and treated them separately with all sorts of nasty neuroactive stuff to figure out if out-of-the-ordinary brain chemistry was affecting the LTP/aniracetam interaction and how. Then they did some tests to see if aniracetam was plausibly the cause of the hypothesized Aniracetam/LTP effect.

Third, the nature of the change responsible for the aniracetam/LTP interaction was explored with waveform analyses and a kinetic model of the AMPA receptor.


So then they looked at the electrochemical waveforms being transmitted through the slices (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPSP) and compared them to a model of how AMPA receptors usually work.

The following results were obtained. LTP reduced the effect of aniracetam on the amplitude but increased its effect on the decay time constant of field EPSPs recorded under conditions in which local spiking and inhibitory responses were blocked. The LTP-induced change in the effect of aniracetam was extremely stable in that it was still evident 75 min after induction of potentiation. Finally, the waveform distortions introduced by LTP and aniracetam could be corrected by uniform stretching of the responses, suggesting that the changes introduced by each of the manipulations are unitary in nature. These distortions and the interactions between them could be reproduced in the AMPA receptor model by representing LTP as an acceleration of channel gating kinetics.


So LTP+Aniracetam reduced the amplitude of neuron electrical signals. Neurons need a high enough amplitude in order to fire and pass on the signal, so I would guess this would have a negative effect on cognition but might also be anxiolytic. GABA slows down signals between neurons and so it looks like a similar effect. Interestingly the responses decayed more slowly, so multiple signals later on would be more likely to get enough amplitude to fire. The effect lasted for 75 minutes after LTP induction! The effect was suspected to be caused by an acceleration of channel gating kinetics, meaning electrical signals moved around faster but with lower amplitudes.

So what's the bottom line? Aniracetam starts acting like GABA and causing an inhibitory effect when LTP becomes active by lowering the magnitude of impulses but also slowing their decay. Anyway. I wouldn't seek out this effect because there are more predictable ways to get an anxiolytic/inhibitory effect and it sounds like you didn't like it.
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#20 medievil

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 02:29 PM

I see some of you pointing out cannabis for its effects on neurogenesis, but what about the other effects on memory? I don't have much specific knowledge, but I know I've seen plenty of studies about it.

Perhaps you can point something out to me that I am unaware of?


Acute cannabinoids impair working memory through astroglial CB1 receptor modulation of hippocampal LTD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22385967

We conclude that the impairment of working memory by marijuana and cannabinoids is due to the activation of astroglial CB(1)R and is associated with astroglia-dependent hippocampal LTD in vivo.


Cannabidiol induces intracellular calcium elevation and cytotoxicity in oligodendrocytes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20645411

Together, these results suggest that cannabidiol causes intracellular Ca(2+) dysregulation which can lead to oligodendrocytes demise.



Cannabis-related deficits in real-world memory.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22389086

Multivariate analysis of variance revealed cannabis users performed worse overall on the task, with poor performance on the planning, time-based PM and event-based PM subscales. In addition, indices of cannabis (length, dose, frequency, total use) were correlated with performance on these three subscales.



Study on rats using a synthetic cannabinoid:
Short- and long-term cognitive effects of chronic cannabinoids administration in late-adolescence rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22348124

Our findings suggest that some forms of hippocampal-dependent short-term memory are sensitive to chronic cannabinoid administration but other cognitive impairments are temporary and probably result from a residue of cannabinoids in the brain or acute withdrawal effects from cannabinoids.


There are probably far more, but I figure we'll start with just a few.

Curcumin mimicks the effects on neurogenesis because of CB1 agonism (even ngf increase) without the cognitive related side effects of MJ.

Apart from that ill elaborate more later on my mentioning of treshold doses of psychedelics; wich can be cognitively enhancing in non psychedelic doses.
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#21 owtsgmi

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:35 PM


CILTEP Stack: (term coined by Abelard Lindsay of Longecity)
500mg Artichoke Extract – contains Luteolin a PDE4 inhibitor
20mg Forskolin – raises c AMP levels

http://www.longecity...ly-induced-ltp/
Racetams (rotating)
1200mg Piracetam, 800mg Aniracetam, 750mg Oxiracetam, 500mg Pramiracetam

Does anyone see any interactions? e.g. Modafinil with a PDE4 inhibitor?


On the other thread health_nutty reported a negative interaction with Aniracetam and CILTEP. Piracetam hasn't caused any problems for me when used with this stack. There's a study that shows that the effect of Aniracetam changes when LTP is induced (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9555053), so that's my best guess as to what's behind it.


Piracetam 800mg x 2 (per day) seems to synergize well with the CILTEP stack. CILTEP may be the missing piece for me!

Edited by owtsgmi, 23 May 2012 - 03:35 PM.

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#22 Cephalon

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:14 PM

Why Resveratrol? What about Pterostilbene it has many of the same effects that Resveratrol has but has a much higher bioavailability.


Sure Pterostilbene could be used instead - actually I used to be a great fan - still have a few grams of the chromadex product left. Not sure if Ptero has the PDE4 inhibitory quality we need for the CILTEP stack.
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#23 Cephalon

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:21 PM

Increasing ACh also has nootropic properties. You have this coverage with ALCAR and CDP-choline, but it would be good to point it out.

Racetams can further broken down into operating on AMPA or NMDA receptors.

The CILEPT stack works best with something to boost dopamine. I've been getting better results when I added L-tyrosine.

FYI, I tried 500mg of quercetin with the CILEPT stack and it completed kicked my butt. Waaay to strong. When I get more courage I'll try it at a lower dose.


You are right I should add a dopamine booster - don't want to use amphetamines, since I have a somewhat addictive personality I guess - though controlled enough to stay away from it.

Quercetin sounds like a strooong response :-) I have some pure luteolin, do you think that would be safe?

Anyone: does PDE4 Iinhibition bear any (serious) sideeffects?
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#24 Cephalon

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:30 PM

I wouldn't take MJ for nootropic purposes. It does have it's uses however.

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It definitely has it's uses :-) maybe we should just consolidate more studies and find out what it's worth. In later versions of the stack I did not include it to avoid controversies - it should be part of general discussion though, since there are studies pointing out it has nootropic effects - just because it's illegal in some places doesn't make it a bad nootropic - many au substances you read about are either prescription or scheduled substances in my country (Germany) which sucks but doesn't make them bad candidates for cognitive enhancement - if at all then just out of inconvenienc. But for now we can discloude it from the list as long as we revealed serious synergies. ..
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#25 Cephalon

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:38 PM



CILTEP Stack: (term coined by Abelard Lindsay of Longecity)
500mg Artichoke Extract – contains Luteolin a PDE4 inhibitor
20mg Forskolin – raises c AMP levels

http://www.longecity...ly-induced-ltp/
Racetams (rotating)
1200mg Piracetam, 800mg Aniracetam, 750mg Oxiracetam, 500mg Pramiracetam

Does anyone see any interactions? e.g. Modafinil with a PDE4 inhibitor?


On the other thread health_nutty reported a negative interaction with Aniracetam and CILTEP. Piracetam hasn't caused any problems for me when used with this stack. There's a study that shows that the effect of Aniracetam changes when LTP is induced (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9555053), so that's my best guess as to what's behind it.


That's good to know! Do you think taking both supplements some hours apart would be safe? I know Aniracetam has a short half life but being fat soluble it can stay in your system quite long. But I'd still prefer to take the CILTEP stack early in the day and Aniracetam later.
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#26 Cephalon

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 06:36 PM

I'm going to add Phosphatidylcholine to my Focus Stack part of the regime.
I think it's beneficial having a slow release choline source in the supplement.
I'm pretty deficient in choline due to my vegetarian (veganish) diet referring to Cron o meter.
Through diet I do not make 50% of the RDI. Together with CDP Choline I'm almost there.
Now I would like to add some - not just so much because of the ACh, but also for
1. Stopping my brain from eating itself
2. For the other health benefits choline has
I could imagine that Phosphatidylcholine, being slow released wouldn't have so bad impact on mood.
Also Phosphatidylcholine hasten benefit of not being "free form choline" so it should he gentler to the cardiovascular system.

Now my question: there are two types of Phosphatidylcholine products available:
1. Phosphatidylcholine "complexes" as softgels
2. Lecithin softgels
Aren't the Phosphatidylcholine complexes (which contain lecithin!) just simple lecithin caps?
Most contain 1200mg complex, yielding 420mg PC, being equivalent to 55mg Choline
To reach the RDA of 550 one would need to take 10 caps a day!
A bottle with 100 caps costs around 10usd + shipping. (17usd at vitacost)
So a month supply would cost be + 50 bucks!

Does anyone know how much Choline regular Lecithin granules contain?
Lecithin granules are very cheap here in Germany. It would suck if I'd pay 10times the money I would payoff lecithin granules /softgels.

Thanks!

Edited by Cephalon, 23 May 2012 - 06:39 PM.

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#27 health_nutty

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 09:03 PM

Creatine helps boost brain ATP stores which has nootropic effects:

Improves working memory and Increases fluid intelligence
Prevents cognitive decline and aids cognitive function in the elderly
http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez

I take 2g a day, but I would take more if I was vegan.

Edited by health_nutty, 23 May 2012 - 09:04 PM.

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#28 uglybuddy6

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:20 PM

Hey, have any of you guys ever tried Kanna it contains the active chemical called Mesembrine. Mesembrine is a potent PDE4 inhibitor and a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. That might be what you guys are looking for. I think maybe we should investigate H3-receptor-antagonists they sound like they could have a lot of potential.
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#29 DoomAndGloom

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:33 PM

I am also taking creatine for its possible nootropic effects and its pretty well supported effects on muscle performance.
I haven't heard of Kanna, but I will do some research on it when I have some spare time.

Edited by DoomAndGloom, 23 May 2012 - 10:49 PM.

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#30 abelard lindsay

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 04:04 AM

Hey, have any of you guys ever tried Kanna it contains the active chemical called Mesembrine. Mesembrine is a potent PDE4 inhibitor and a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. That might be what you guys are looking for. I think maybe we should investigate


Quercetin is already even a little too strong of a PDE4 inhibitor as it is and Kanna is even stronger (IC50 < 1ug) (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21798331) . I would be very careful with adding these to the stack for PDE4 inhibition purposes.
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