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Losing weight at light speed

fasting red light laser weight loss hunger

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#91 Mike1024

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 06:19 PM

Meaning exactly what?

 

That your measurement of 99.9 W/m^2 is wrong. You need to calibrate it for red light vs white light.


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#92 Oakman

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:07 PM

That your measurement of 99.9 W/m^2 is wrong. You need to calibrate it for red light vs white light.

Of course that would be ideal, but it is both difficult to perform (what is the standard 660 nm LED curve for example, and financially impossible for anyone lacking a full laboratory of photonics equipment). And what would it prove regarding what is being discussed here? Likely, the 660nm irradiance response of these LEDs is being under registered and so the output is too...or maybe not....but it is also unlikely to be significantly in error.

 

So I'll not belabor this point here further, as it's not the subject of this thread, but suffice to say the spec for the TESS-1333 is, "Spectral response:400-1100nm" and so covers the range being discussed. And yes, accuracy is quoted as to sunlight. Nevertheless, solar power meters are said to do a respectable job measuring LLLT devices, even without re-calibration, and especially to measure differences between similar light sources, at least according to random manufacturers of light therapy devices, as below.

 

https://platinumther...-therapy-device

 

"A common device for comparing and measuring the irradiance of a red light therapy device is a solar irradiance meter which is indeed a very accurate tool especially for comparisons between two lights. These meters use different units than we use in the light therapy industry which is watts per square meter, or abbreviated this would be  W/M²."

 

"A popular and cost-effective way to the measure the irradiance of a device is with a solar irradiance meter, a device we mentioned earlier. There are other devices for this, but they are incredibly expensive and cost prohibitive.  Solar power meters are extremely accurate devices that are specifically tuned to the wavelengths of light that we are working with.  There are particular other therapy light companies who will tell you that the more expensive devices are the ONLY accurate meters you can use, probably because they know you won’t buy multiple red light therapy devices just to send them to a lab for testing to figure out which one is better.

 

The notion that solar irradiance meters are inaccurate is false and the only companies or people that would say this are those with something to hide and motivations to intentionally deceive the community for monetary gains."

 

https://redlightman....therapy-dosing/

 

"The power density of light from any LED or laser therapy device can be tested with a ‘solar power meter’ – a product that is usually sensitive to light in the 400nm – 1100nm range – giving a reading in mW/cm² or W/m² (100W/m² = 10mW/cm²)."



#93 Mike1024

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:27 PM

Of course that would be ideal, but it is both difficult to perform (what is the standard 660 nm LED curve for example, and financially impossible for anyone lacking a full laboratory of photonics equipment). And what would it prove regarding what is being discussed here? Likely, the 660nm irradiance response of these LEDs is being under registered and so the output is too...or maybe not....but it is also unlikely to be significantly in error.

...

 

Oakman,

 

Sorry but I disagree. Since this subject is getting somewhat off topic, I will drop it.

 

Thanks,

Mike  



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#94 paka

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 08:15 PM

To state the obvious, an attempt to achieve the results in the OP the same procedure needs to be followed. Meaningful speculation beyond the OP requires a lot of knowledge wrt PBM/LLLT and is beyond our scope here to even summarize. Despite 30+ years and 30K+ PBM (and many other acronyms) studies/trials/articles, it is only recently that even 'dosage' measurement/definition has been standardized, and there are several hypotheses on the basic mechanisms (CCox, interfacial water. ion channels...) Knowledge  is accumulating, MR Hamblin (PubMed) is a good place to start (latest to earliest).

As concerns the light source, I offer the following.

The OPs link (not a recommendation, but presumably similar to what he used) is still available.

300 lumens requires ~4.5W of LED total power and at 15% efficiency puts out 0.7W of red light (likely at 635nm, ie "NASA" LED, cheap, etc...). At a 2cm lens diam..this is an average ~0.2W/sq.cm (.7W/pi). At 10-15 sec  total energy delivered is 7-10J (2-3 J/sq.cm.) at skin surface. This is within the range of accepted effective parameters at/near skin surface, and supports OPs described 'mechanism' (dosage at vagus nerve, microbiome likely 'too low')

In a nutshell , spend $18 and go for it, and please share results.

 



#95 Mr Matsubayashi

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:52 AM

There is plenty of IR in the suns black body radiation. If satiety was achieved with a red torch while hiking outside i'd think there is a good chance of placebo, keeping in mind that hunger does resolve itself. The torch could be legitimate, maybe a certain intensity of IR is required to make cells dump lipids. What is interesting is the easy opportunity to design an experiment with a sham light device. Have the lighting device flush against your skin, have the power button rigged to work randomly on button press and have it digitally time log its actual operation onto a txt file. The sham could be further enhanced by a conduction electric heater that creates a similar sensation. At the same time maintain a user log of when the button was pressed and time to alleviate hunger. A month of this could generate some interesting data. An obvious product would be a waist band with leds under your shirt that has leads to a power pack and timed switch in your pocked with vibration to indicate when the 5min timer has expired/off. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...spectrum_en.svg

 



#96 Turnbuckle

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 12:20 PM

There is plenty of IR in the suns black body radiation. If satiety was achieved with a red torch while hiking outside i'd think there is a good chance of placebo, keeping in mind that hunger does resolve itself. The torch could be legitimate, maybe a certain intensity of IR is required to make cells dump lipids. What is interesting is the easy opportunity to design an experiment with a sham light device. Have the lighting device flush against your skin, have the power button rigged to work randomly on button press and have it digitally time log its actual operation onto a txt file. The sham could be further enhanced by a conduction electric heater that creates a similar sensation. At the same time maintain a user log of when the button was pressed and time to alleviate hunger. A month of this could generate some interesting data. An obvious product would be a waist band with leds under your shirt that has leads to a power pack and timed switch in your pocked with vibration to indicate when the 5min timer has expired/off. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...spectrum_en.svg

 

 

Specific frequencies are associated with mitochondrial stimulation. See Fig. 5 of this paper. Some frequencies, particularly at the blue end of the spectrum, actually depress mito activity. The purpose of stimulating mitochondria with specific red frequencies is to stimulate the release of triglycerides to reduce or eliminate the hunger signal, while the actual weight loss is due to fasting and exercise. For most people, fasts quickly fail due to hunger. Red light of the right frequencies can be most helpful during the initial days of a fast when hunger is greatest, before triglycerides are mobilized from adipose tissue. The biggest deficiency of this method is having to resort to a flashlight, and to remember to use it when hungry. Ideally someone will eventually market an LED patch that increases triglyceride levels sufficiently to prevent hunger. This could operate continuously like a nicotine patch, except it would be placed over fatty tissue.


Edited by Turnbuckle, 20 January 2020 - 12:42 PM.


#97 sthira

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 10:23 PM

For most people, fasts quickly fail due to hunger.


I think fasts often fail because of more than just hunger. Sure, the first day or two of a fast can be psychologically challenging; but no one is actually “hungry” after a few days without food. Short fasts (eg, days 1,2,3) are more about breaking the body’s habit of frequently feeding. Like breaking any animal’s habitual pattern. But once past that initial hump, (prolonged) fasting becomes so much easier, it feels natural and good, like sleep or exercise. Of course prolonged fasting (>3 days) has challenging ups and downs — again like sleep and exercise. Going through these challenges safely and mindfully strengthens both the mind and body — prolonged fasting make you stronger. (Of course the caveats of who you are and what’s your state of health).

A bigger challenge seems the uncertainty regarding the alleged healthfulness of fasting itself. If people were more certain that it’s healthy, they’d do it more often. Like sleep and exercise. When I prolong fast (which is often) I can’t really communicate that I’m fasting with anyone around me because few understand the benefits. Nearly everyone, even doctors and medically-trained people, immediately point out the detriments, they tell me it’s dangerous, it’s unhealthy, stop fasting before you hurt yourself, they say. Eat! Everyone says this.

So more than the temporary discomforts is the lack of support from science — science that says fasting is healthy and then the message is passed into mainstream thought. People think fasting is bad, so they don’t do it.
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#98 mike20g

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Posted 23 January 2020 - 05:31 PM

I want to share an interesting observation with you. I do not do red flashlight, but several days ago I added creatine to my current list of "supplements". I know that creatine increases water retention and you would expect weight gain. But it is interesting that adding creatine completely removed sense of satiety. I was feeling very hungry immediately after meal for the entire day for several days as I took creatine. Once I stopped creatine I immediately restored the sense of satiety after meal returning to normal state. Curious what caused it. And curious if there is any benefit of doing creatine together with flashlight technique to kill hunger signal.

#99 Turnbuckle

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Posted 23 January 2020 - 08:09 PM

I want to share an interesting observation with you. I do not do red flashlight, but several days ago I added creatine to my current list of "supplements". I know that creatine increases water retention and you would expect weight gain. But it is interesting that adding creatine completely removed sense of satiety. I was feeling very hungry immediately after meal for the entire day for several days as I took creatine. Once I stopped creatine I immediately restored the sense of satiety after meal returning to normal state. Curious what caused it. And curious if there is any benefit of doing creatine together with flashlight technique to kill hunger signal.

 

Creatine ups AMPK and AMPK increases hunger. Mice who are AMPK deficient don't eat as much -- https://pubmed.ncbi....lin-resistance/

 

So you might want to avoid creatine while dieting/fasting.

 

I've found that the mito fission/fusion state has a definite impact on hunger. Fission increases hunger while fusion reduces it. This likely has to do with the efficiency of mitochondria increasing with fusion, thus making do with less fuel. To achieve fusion without calories, I recommend 50 mg of sulforaphane, such as the Thorne product Crucera-SGS, while avoiding NAD+ products, which increase fission.


Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 January 2020 - 08:16 PM.


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#100 mike20g

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Posted 24 January 2020 - 12:49 AM

Thank you for the explanation! I tried Amvacol before and even brocolli sprouts, but was not impressed. Will give it another try. I will educate myself on mitochondria fission/fusion using your relevant thread to understand the subject better. As for creatine I am taking a pause, but when I decide to restart it I will likely take it before bed, not very concerned with timing and will likely couple it with red flashlight, it does curb my hunger.

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#101 Turnbuckle

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 01:10 PM

A bigger challenge seems the uncertainty regarding the alleged healthfulness of fasting itself. If people were more certain that it’s healthy, they’d do it more often. Like sleep and exercise. When I prolong fast (which is often) I can’t really communicate that I’m fasting with anyone around me because few understand the benefits. Nearly everyone, even doctors and medically-trained people, immediately point out the detriments, they tell me it’s dangerous, it’s unhealthy, stop fasting before you hurt yourself, they say. Eat! Everyone says this.
 

 

I've never heard anyone say that. Of course it depends on the culture. I know there are mothers and grandmothers out there who insist of stuffing anyone who comes within range. If you live with such people, fasting could be very difficult.


Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 February 2020 - 01:10 PM.






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