766 replies to this topic

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Everyone,

I talked to the owner, he stated he believes it is 99% trans, but that he wouldn't feel comfortable releasing the powder for a large order until he gets an independent lab test in Anaheim CA, to confirm it.
He sounds like he started recently, and checking his website stats it appears he registered the domain back in August of last year.

I have modified the price watch, as he has told me to wait on any large orders to confirm the quality. For now it is up in the air...

In my opinion, he appears to have just started and is looking for a marketing angle for his wholesale business, as his website is tailored for large orders as his primary business. Since Resveratrol is in the news alot, making small amounts available to consumers will allow him to have an increase in visibility and allow folks like Mega and Myself take notice. The problem now is the quality, if the tests don't go as well as expected it might hurt his future business. It's a tough decision to make when you are small, and it could be a mistake if you are not sure about your suppliers in Asia or Europe, or if they can be consistent on quality.

We have dropped 6 companies already that did not meet our standards, so we know this can be expensive. Let's hope we can see the COA from Anaheim independent lab soon.

Edward, we are looking at the wholesale pricing he has sent us:

10 kg of the 99% Trans-res is $626 per kilogram.
25 kg of the 99% Trans-res is $613 per kilogram.

If you compare it to the 100 gram and (500 gram @ $310 pricing), you will notice that the 10 KG costs more per gram than the 500 gram order, which I found odd. But not extremely odd if he is choosing enter the market and gain some quick retail customers while he builds his main wholesale business. The only problem I see is that he should have confirmed the powder's purity before marketing it.

We have actually been talked to by some companies on the list, suggesting to stop the list all together, so that the marketing will allow folks to consider Resveratrol by brand and not price. Although tempting, RevGenetics started by providing Resveratrol in greater amounts than those found in 2006, because we believed in providing it in decent quantities rather than marketing a supplement with "Resveratrol" in bold letters, while only having 1mg per serving. (Yes I actually saw this in Costco the other day, and it made me a little sick). If the powder price drops to a new low for 4 or more merchants (and we verify it's quality powder) we will concentrate on our micronized version of the powder, and continue to sell the capsules.

We haven't considered price changes for powder, as the verdict is still out on the new person's 99% powder's quality.

A

[maxwatt]

Hi Everyone,

I talked to the owner, he stated he believes it is 99% trans, but that he wouldn't feel comfortable releasing the powder for a large order until he gets an independent lab test in Anaheim CA, to confirm it.
He sounds like he started recently, and checking his website stats it appears he registered the domain back in August of last year.

I have modified the price watch, as he has told me to wait on any large orders to confirm the quality. For now it is up in the air...

In my opinion, he appears to have just started and is looking for a marketing angle for his wholesale business, as his website is tailored for large orders as his primary business. Since Resveratrol is in the news alot, making small amounts available to consumers will allow him to have an increase in visibility and allow folks like Mega and Myself take notice. The problem now is the quality, if the tests don't go as well as expected it might hurt his future business. It's a tough decision to make when you are small, and it could be a mistake if you are not sure about your suppliers in Asia or Europe, or if they can be consistent on quality.

We have dropped 6 companies already that did not meet our standards, so we know this can be expensive. Let's hope we can see the COA from Anaheim independent lab soon.

Edward, we are looking at the wholesale pricing he has sent us:

10 kg of the 99% Trans-res is $626 per kilogram.
25 kg of the 99% Trans-res is $613 per kilogram.

If you compare it to the 100 gram and (500 gram @ $310 pricing), you will notice that the 10 KG costs more per gram than the 500 gram order, which I found odd. But not extremely odd if he is choosing enter the market and gain some quick retail customers while he builds his main wholesale business. The only problem I see is that he should have confirmed the powder's purity before marketing it.

We have actually been talked to by some companies on the list, suggesting to stop the list all together, so that the marketing will allow folks to consider Resveratrol by brand and not price. Although tempting, RevGenetics started by providing Resveratrol in greater amounts than those found in 2006, because we believed in providing it in decent quantities rather than marketing a supplement with "Resveratrol" in bold letters, while only having 1mg per serving. (Yes I actually saw this in Costco the other day, and it made me a little sick). If the powder price drops to a new low for 4 or more merchants (and we verify it's quality powder) we will concentrate on our micronized version of the powder, and continue to sell the capsules.

We haven't considered price changes for powder, as the verdict is still out on the new person's 99% powder's quality.

A

His prices are lower than the spot-prices in China for 98% resveratrol just a few months ago.
He may be taking a minimal or no markup, or his product could be the bacterial or yeast fermentation-produced material James was complaining of last fall.
Sorry you had quality problems with suppliers.

Edited by maxwatt, 11 January 2008 - 02:13 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

I agree it may be a questionable batch, pricing may have come down, there is also another reason, but I would ask you to PM me about that one as it is a little out there....

Regarding quality, we will find out as the tests come in.

Max, we have had some issues with suppliers and lost a bit of money while searching for powder that met our standards. For example, we ordered a batch from a supplier that you and I know. It simply contained more emodin than was agreed to... and we needed to stop ordering from them last year. We currently have a few suppliers that have consistently given us a quality product, and have sticked with them because of the quality.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 10 January 2008 - 10:56 PM.

[Hedgehog]

I agree it may be a questionable batch, pricing may have come down, there is also another reason, but I would ask you to PM me about that one as it is a little out there....

Regarding quality, we will find out as the tests come in.

Max, we have had some issues with suppliers and lost a bit of money while searching for powder that met our standards. For example, we ordered a batch from a supplier that you and I know. It simply contained more emodin than was agreed to... and we needed to stop ordering from them last year. We currently have a few suppliers that have consistently given us a quality product, and have sticked with them because of the quality.

A

He offers HPLC testing for other people so maybe it is correct. Somebody is sending me a sample from his shop so hopefully we will get an idea after that.

[Anthony_Loera]

I know, but the COA hasn't come back from his independent lab yet...

I would like to check it out, before we consider a few things.

A

[missminni]

His prices are lower than the spot-prices in Chin for 98% resveratrol just a few months ago.
He may be taking a minimal or no markup, or his product could be the bacterial or yeast fermentation-produced material James was complaining of last fall.
Sorry you had quality problems with suppliers.

Can this be determined through testing? Or is the test for content only? How is one assured
that they are not getting the bacterial or yeast fermented produced product?

[maxwatt]

His prices are lower than the spot-prices in Chin for 98% resveratrol just a few months ago.
He may be taking a minimal or no markup, or his product could be the bacterial or yeast fermentation-produced material James was complaining of last fall.
Sorry you had quality problems with suppliers.

Can this be determined through testing? Or is the test for content only? How is one assured
that they are not getting the bacterial or yeast fermented produced product?

We have uncorroborated statements from James Betz (Biotivia) that most 98% and all 99% resveratrol was produced via fermentation by genetically modified organisms. I would expect HPLC extraction to leave a trace of Tannins and anthocyanins, and perhaps emodin, that might show up on a sensitive enough assay. Betz claimed he tests for genetic material from yeast in his supplies; I don't know what tests he actually uses. It is also likely to me much cheaper, less than half the price of extracts.

There is also the possibility that resveratrol produced by fermentation might be a better product, with fewer impurities, than an extract.

[edward]

His prices are lower than the spot-prices in Chin for 98% resveratrol just a few months ago.
He may be taking a minimal or no markup, or his product could be the bacterial or yeast fermentation-produced material James was complaining of last fall.
Sorry you had quality problems with suppliers.

Can this be determined through testing? Or is the test for content only? How is one assured
that they are not getting the bacterial or yeast fermented produced product?

We have uncorroborated statements from James Betz (Biotivia) that most 98% and all 99% resveratrol was produced via fermentation by genetically modified organisms. I would expect HPLC extraction to leave a trace of Tannins and anthocyanins, and perhaps emodin, that might show up on a sensitive enough assay. Betz claimed he tests for genetic material from yeast in his supplies; I don't know what tests he actually uses. It is also likely to me much cheaper, less than half the price of extracts.

There is also the possibility that resveratrol produced by fermentation might be a better product, with fewer impurities, than an extract.

Good point (see text I bolded). Note that the studies on resveratrol were done using SYNTHETIC Resveratrol, and in my opinion a product made via fermentation by genetically modified organisms would closer approximate a synthetic product with regards to being free of other plant compound and impuriites, plus might require less in the way of solvents and other chemicals to purify it to 99%. But regardless, if the product is 99% trans I don't think it really matter where it came from. A 99% pure product as long as free of heavy metals, biologicals etc. is a 99% product is a 99% product and I will happily buy and consume.

[Hedgehog]

Hey Ed there are many ways to spin Resveratrols purity. Myself working in a biotech GMP lab know all about this. Purity can be used in a many different ways. For example many vendors say their product is >98% trans-resveratrol. Sounds great? Well depending on the method they used they are probably only looking at the Cis-Trans ratio. If you are only looking at two things then it is very easy to get close to 100% of something.

Other test could look at common degradation products of resveratrol this might be included in the Cis-Trans HPLC assay.





PDA=looks at many wavelengths UV=looks one wavelength
HOWEVER this is the most important thing. Unless they run an HPLC with a PDA the purity values could be very different. A PDA will look at absorbance over a range of wavelengths. Commonly Resveratrol is tested for purity at around 315nm give or take 5nm. This is the best wavelength to get a good detection of resveratrol. However if you don't use a PDA you are only looking at one wavelength for purity this is probably completely wrong because you are potentially missing many compounds that have no absorbance near 315 and might absorb near a different wavelength. Lots assume that you have an HPLC with a PDA detector and you get a response at lets say 210nm. You have no idea what that is? It could be a number of molecules that absorb at 210nm. You can't quantitate it because you don't know what it is and have no standard to reference it against.

So for each manufacture you would have to develop a method based on a number of things. Probably would have to develop a LC-MS method get an idea of what might be in powder and then get a reference standard of whatever it is and test it.

There are also strength tests that look at how will and could potential look at purity profiles of capsules and tablets. Basically you dissolve the pills/capsules run the HPLC and compare the absorbance’s against reference standards. This ensures that each capsule/tablet has the right amount of Resveratrol or anything else you are looking for.

Having that said a vendor could spin the purity numbers a number of ways.
Purity only Cis-Trans
Purity common degradants + Cis+Trans
Purity strength
Purity OVI, H20, + everything else

Unless you get their HPLC method either UV or PDA it is hard to tell how good it really is. Plus you also have to consider organic stuff that will not even be detected at any wavelength. To get a good idea of how much junk is in the resveratrol that won't be detected you would have to run it against an external standard. A purity for area normalization might give you good results but it gives no idea of any junk. If you run it against an external standard then you an at least get an idea of how much junk is in there.

Here is a good example: 100mg of powder (50mg Resveratrol +10mg emodin + 40mg unknown)
I could run a Cis-Trans HPLC assay look and say my resveratrol is 98% Trans-resveratrol norm
A more probable assay would be Cis-Trans+common degradation and say my resveratrol is 97% pure by area norm


To do something like this would be very expensive and time consuming. Months of work for just one vendor. This is just a small snap shot of Biotech GMP work. Being very new to herbal products (3 weeeks) it seems like there is not much QA and QC work compared to other industries.

Edited by hedgehog_info, 11 January 2008 - 05:48 PM.

[Hedgehog]

If you take a look at Revgenetics CoA which is publicly available.

They had it tested for Cis, Trans and common degradation products. However, we have no idea if this is a area normalization HPLC or against an external standard HPLC test. It would be nice if they would give the HPLC description.

Anthony I’m not sure how much analytical Chem background you have. I’m not trying to knock down your product in anyway. What I think you have provided is better than most vendors!


kudos to you.

[Anthony_Loera]

Thanks Hedgehog_info,

We use AACL of Illinois, (heck their phone number is on the COA)... and here it is again (217)-352-6060

Give them a call to see if they will give you the methods they use for testing Hedge.
In all honesty, we chose them to test the resveratrol from a group of labs as they have had some history with other large supplement makers and are trusted by some folks here.

I am glad Hedgehog_info is a rep of a GMP biotech lab, that does these things for supplement makers. He has alot of good information and could probably do a good deal of business with concerned people that question their supplements. We, as a company, have to rely on independent labs with a good history to do things the right way to keep our labels in compliance with the FDA. If we couldn't trust the independent lab, that has a good history with other large supplement manufacturers, and who has helped us weed out bad suppliers... who would we turn to then? The marketing labs like consumer labs? Of course not, they outsource their testing to other people... How about someone in a small startup lab? No we wouldn't use them either. We would again, investigate those who have been around for a bit, are being used by other supplement makers, have a good track record and is looked upon favorably by people.

I think most companies would do the same.

A

[Hedgehog]

Thanks Hedgehog_info,

We use AACL of Illinois, (heck their phone number is on the COA)... and here it is again (217)-352-6060

Give them a call to see if they will give you the methods they use for testing Hedge.
In all honesty, we chose them to test the resveratrol from a group of labs as they have had some history with other large supplement makers and are trusted by some folks here.

I am glad Hedgehog_info is a rep of a GMP biotech lab, that does these things for supplement makers. He has alot of good information and could probably do a good deal of business with concerned people that question their supplements. We, as a company, have to rely on independent labs with a good history to do things the right way to keep our labels in compliance with the FDA. If we couldn't trust the independent lab, that has a good history with other large supplement manufacturers, and who has helped us weed out bad suppliers... who would we turn to then? The marketing labs like consumer labs? Of course not, they outsource their testing to other people... How about someone in a small startup lab? No we wouldn't use them either. We would again, investigate those who have been around for a bit, are being used by other supplement makers, have a good track record and is looked upon favorably by people.

I think most companies would do the same.

A

It makes no difference what lab you use big or small. As long as they test the material the correct way. That new vendor vital primelabs (or something like that) has tested his cis-trans purity at 99% trans, but his test did not look at ANYTHING else. So maybe his substance has 99mg of sand 1mg of resveratrol and of that 0.99mg is trans-resveratrol. He is currently sending it out to a few independent labs to get more tests to confirm his results. I think he said one of them is going to be somewhat based on an external standard which will give a better indication of overall purity and not jus the cis/trans ratios.

I emailed aaclabs and a person named charlie wouldn't give out customer information.

I think i missed what happend with consumerlabs? Are they affilated with certain vendors?

I just went on their website here is part of their method for testing resveratrol. Notice that they test for amounts of specific isomers and total.

Testing Method:
Products were tested for amounts of resveratrol (specific isomers and total)

However I don't understand this

Total resveratrol was calculated as the sum of cis and trans resveratrol plus 58.7% of the sum of cis and trans polydatin

Does this mean they assumed that all extracts tested assumed that 58.7% had this compound included in their pills/tablets...? I wonder how they got that number.

[Hedgehog]

All products were first analyzed in an independent laboratory by HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromatography) assay to separate and determine the amounts of cis and trans resveratrol and cis and trans polydatin (a resveratrol glycoside, also known as piceid, which contains 58.7% resveratrol). Products not passing this initial assay were tested in a second independent laboratory utilizing a similar HPLC assay.

Never mind I think I understand it now. I wonder what their definition of amount is. Amount by area norm or by external standard?

Edited by hedgehog_info, 11 January 2008 - 10:21 PM.

[Hedgehog]

I also talked to vendor in china who clamied 98% Trans-resveratrol but if you took 1gram of this stuff it would be equilant to taking 100mgs of pure trans-resveratrol just by looking at the CoA he produced even tho he claimed 98% which it was but just not the overall purity.

Edited by hedgehog_info, 11 January 2008 - 10:21 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

That's the problem with some of the stuff you get from China, and why we dropped some suppliers.
To clear things up, the powder that failed our tests was never offered to the public. The supplier was simply dropped.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 12 January 2008 - 03:41 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Some quick changes:

Mega added 98% and some minor changes

[maxwatt]

These aren't on your list:
http://eresveratrol....tore/index.php3

It also has 50 mg of quercetin.

[Anthony_Loera]

Thanks Maxwatt,
should I also add something like this to the list so folks can make a comparison?

See FR104 Resveratrol in the PDF From Biomol...
http://www.biomol.de...infos_nr106.pdf

I will probably add yours sometime tonight.
thanks
A

[sUper GeNius]

Thanks Maxwatt,
should I also add something like this to the list so folks can make a comparison?

See FR104 Resveratrol in the PDF From Biomol...
http://www.biomol.de...infos_nr106.pdf

I will probably add yours sometime tonight.
thanks
A

Just noticed the address of Biomol. I can walk to their office.

Maxwatt. Shame that t-res supplier adds teh quercitin. Looks good in that the 99% is premixed with the two emulsifiers.

[maxwatt]

Thanks Maxwatt,
should I also add something like this to the list so folks can make a comparison?

See FR104 Resveratrol in the PDF From Biomol...
http://www.biomol.de...infos_nr106.pdf

I will probably add yours sometime tonight.
thanks
A

Just noticed the address of Biomol. I can walk to their office.

Maxwatt. Shame that t-res supplier adds the quercitin. Looks good in that the 99% is premixed with the two emulsifiers.

I emailed him about why he should take it out. I have nothing to do with his business, BTW.

[edward]

Anthony, I just looked at the price watch and you removed the Vitalprime guy, any reason? I am still anxiously awaiting my shipment, hopefully it will be here on Monday, which will be 11 days from the time of order which I think is plenty of time. Have you gotten yours yet?

[tintinet]

These aren't on your list:
http://eresveratrol....tore/index.php3

It also has 50 mg of quercetin.

I attempted to email this vendor for a COA. Mailer Daemon states undeliverable......

[Anthony_Loera]

Added eResveratrol's product to the list

Edward, sorry about the vital prime, I am still waiting on it myself to compare. Last time I edited the sheet and added mega's 98 product I think I used an older excel sheet. But its back up now. Please let me know if you get it before I do, I want to make sure the label states 99%.

Thanks
A

[zawy]

I noticed little white bits in my R300 from revgenetics. Did you have to add a little of the pure stuff to get a 50% batch up to snuff?

[Anthony_Loera]

I noticed little white bits in my R300 from revgenetics. Did you have to add a little of the pure stuff to get a 50% batch up to snuff?

On occasion, the pure stuff is added by our supplier before we receive it. We noticed our last COA for the 50% was slightly higher in trans because of this. It's definitely the customer that benefits because of our standards.

thanks
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 20 January 2008 - 07:41 PM.

[Hedgehog]

I noticed little white bits in my R300 from revgenetics. Did you have to add a little of the pure stuff to get a 50% batch up to snuff?

Hey Zawy,

If you don't mind send me a very small sample with the white pieces? Or try to take them out and see if they act the same way in water as the none white pieces.

Regards,

[zawy]

I could send you a pill you want. Weight of pills was good. The specs are a very fine powder in dispersed fragile clumps with being at most 1/2 mm diameter in each pill. Seems to readily dissolve in water, probably mostly due to being fine and turning clear as soon as they get wet. Less than 1% by weight is in the clumps. They had to add more than that to be useful, so maybe it's dispersed out in the powder better than the visible clumps indicate.

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[tintinet]

These aren't on your list:
http://eresveratrol....tore/index.php3

It also has 50 mg of quercetin.

I attempted to email this vendor for a COA. Mailer Daemon states undeliverable......

Update: maxwatt sent me an alternate email address. The seller replied with a COA attesting to 99% purity quickly thereafter.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Everyone,

James from Biotivia asked us to stop putting his products on the list that is hosted on our website:

Anthony,
Please remove all mention of Biotvia and its products from your web
site. You are misrepresenting our products. Regards, James

We have taken them off the product list for now, as this is the only place in our website that mentions his product. If anyone would care to help me understand how we misrepresent his product, please let me know.

If anyone cares to manually post their current prices as a post, I am sure it would be helpfull to other members.

Thanks
Anthony Loera

[tintinet]

Hi Everyone,

James from Biotivia asked us to stop putting his products on the list that is hosted on our website:

Anthony,
Please remove all mention of Biotvia and its products from your web
site. You are misrepresenting our products. Regards, James

We have taken them off the product list for now, as this is the only place in our website that mentions his product. If anyone would care to help me understand how we misrepresent his product, please let me know.

If anyone cares to manually post their current prices as a post, I am sure it would be helpfull to other members.

Thanks
Anthony Loera

Bon voyage, James! It's been real.....