148 replies to this topic

[nowayout]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder why anybody would need steroids unless he is a professional athlete. If you want to become very muscular and big you can make that with a right diet and training . Steroids can play havoc with your hormonal balance and cause a lot of serious health problems. Many professional bodybuilders have health problems primarily connected with diet very high in protein and steroid use.

 

 
Interesting video, even though it seems a bit old. I doubt the evidence against steroids is solely 'anecdotal'. The fact that the few people in the video seem not to have had any health problems in the past 20-40 years, doesn't mean much and is also anecdotal.
If it wasn't harmful, the pharmaceutical companies would have already jumped onto it. They even sell life-threatening medication, for god's sake! Nonetheless, I am curious what, if any, is the real truth behind this.
 

 
The problem is that nobody can patent the drugs because they are already out there. Then there is the issue with sports and competition and human results. Where does the competition end and the drug begin? I guess it would be a drugs race in sports with who has the best cocktail of steroids to lift his athletic abilities. There's too much money involved in sports and competition so steroids is probably the biggest threat to making money for certain sponsors. Then there is the issue with people who become their own doctors, and we all have seen the freaks pumping in too much silicone and synthol in their muscles. It's just sad! I think the question with steroids is more ethical and of making money rather than a question of health. 
 
If you look up Dorian Yates, I think he used steroids for more than 2 decades and is fine. But he used only a few compounds at low dosages and did not use GH/insulin! 
 
Also check out these articles. 
 
http://www.ourstolen...avisonetal.html
 
http://press.endocri...10/jc.2006-1375
 

View on Vimeo.

I agree that the decline in T is disturbing. To my own surprise, even though I am only 19 and lift weights while building muscle and strength and not showing any symptoms of hypogonadism, I had low T levels, especially for my age AND during the morning (when T is supposed to be higher).
My doctor and endocrinologist say that I don't have to do anything about it and I should just 'wait and see' until my next bloodwork in a couple months.
I am not against restoring T levels per se, I am just a bit conspicious as far as health is concerned.

 

 

Since you are not showing any symptoms, you really should not worry about it.  And average T levels in young men are not really as high as some internet sources (who have a stake in selling people supplements or TRT) would have you believe. 

 

I have seen studies in which T levels in young elite athletes were in the 400s.  Another study finding average T levels of a group of young men in the 500s.  The people on the internet trying to have you believe that they "should" be above, say,  800 in young men don't know what they are talking about and are just creating a new generation of hypochondriacs. 

 

 

 

I wasn't talking about the sources that try to sell TRT, actually. My first T levels (about 5 weeks ago) were around 140. 2 weeks later, at the endocrinologist, it was 330, which is rather low, considering my age (19), lifestyle (enough rest, no stress, always in a good mood) and diet (healthy, no soy or other estrogen-increasing products).

I am not worrying about it, I'll just have to wait until next time to see if it's still low.

 

 

Also keep in mind that different labs have different assay machines with different sensitivities.  One lab may give 400 for a sample and another lab may give 200 for the exact same sample.  Technician may also not handle the samples the right way.   It may help to look at the lab ranges, which tend to be different for different labs, but even that is not foolproof. 

 

[belgin fish]

Try it but you're risking a heart attack down the road at an early age.

[nowayout]

This list of professional bodybuilders, copied from a post by PatrickM500 elsewhere, bears repeating:

 

Mike Mentzer died 2001 age 49 heart complications
Ray Mentzer died 2001 age 47 Berger's disease(build-up of cholesterol plaques in the arteries), endocarditis (an infection of the lining of the heart)
Ron Teufel died 2002 age 45 liver failure
Scott Klein died 2003 age 30 kidney failure and heart failure
Sonny Schmidt died 2004 age 51 cancer
Robert Benavente 2004 age 30 massive heart attack
Charles Durr 2005 age 44 enlarged heart
Don Youngblood 2005 age 51 massive heart attack
Paul Demayo 2005 age 38 heroin overdose
Fannie Barrios 2005 age 41 (female) apparent stroke
Eric Otero 2006 age 37 infection in his tooth that entered his bloodstream
Eduardo Kawak 2006 age 47 heart attack
Rob Sager 2007 age 29 HEART FAILURE
Greg Deferro 2007 age 53 heart disease
Dan Puckett 2007 age 22 heart condition
Shelley Beattie 2008 age 39 (female) depression for six weeks before she hung herself
Joe Meeko 2009 age 48 Lyme disease
Luke Wood 2011 age 35 kidney failure and heart failure
Carlos Rodriguez 1991 age 48 stomach cancer
Mohammed Benaziza 1992 age 33 he took an injection of clenbuterol
Ray McNeil 1995 age 29 killed by his wife
Andreas Münzer 1996 age 31 liver and then kidneys failed
Johnny Fuller 2006 age 62 cancer
Wilfred Sylvester 2006 age 62 alzheimers
Derrick Whitsett 2004 age 38 heart attack
Trevor Smith 2004 age 33 No official cause but he was 400lbs 6ft 1"
Curtis Leffler 1998 age 36 heart attack
Hans Hopstaken 2002 age 45 unspecified heart condition, or pnuemonia
Art Atwood 2011 age 38 heart attack
Bj johns 1995-1996? age 34 New Zealand Heart attack
lou barrie 2001 age 40 died instantly after a massive heart
Claudia Bianchi 2004 age 34 blocked arteries
Big Boss Man' Ray Traylor 2004 age 41 heart attack
Marianna Komlos 2004 age 35 breast cancer
Luke Iams 2003 age unsure 40's heart attack
Anthony Clark 2005 age 39 massive heart attack
Mannie Hamilton 2005 age 62 heart attack
Roger Estep 2005 brain cancer
John Riggins 2005 age 33 kidneys failed, liver stopped functioning, lungs filling up with fluid and he has pneumonia
John Ware 2005 Age 46 (former PLer; current football coach) heart attack
Doug Young, 2005 age 61, powerlifter massive heart attack
Norm Dabish, 2005 age 46, Co-founder of Powerhouse Gyms. heart attack
Herb Glossbrenner, 2005 age 63, suffers stoke
Steve Courson 2005 Steroid whistle blowers for the NFL http://en.wikipedia....i/Steve_Courson crushed to death
Eddie Guerrero, 2005 age 38. acute heart failure due to arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease (artery wall thickens as a result of the accumulation of fatty materials such as cholesterol)
Hans Ossner, 2006 age 64 cancer
Dave Barno, 2006 age 35 dead lifting while back was broken
Russ Knipp 2006 age 63 heart attack

My understanding is in 2013 we have had 12 more well known bodybuilders pass on, including

Nasser El Sonbatey 2013 age 47, Kidney Failure
Casey Viator 2013 age 62, heart attack
Matt Duvall, 2013 age 40 heart attack

And lets not forget those who still hanging on:

Arnold Schwarzenegger triple heart bypass still living
Don Long kidney failure still living
Tom Prince kidney failure still living
Flex Wheeler kidney transplant in 2003 still living
Ed Corney 1999 suffered a heart attack and 2 strokes still living
Boyer Coe August 11th, had quadruple heart bypass surgery. they discovered Boyer's blood that was extremely thick, and three main arteries were almost completely blocked. The doctors performed open heart surgery right then and there he is still living
Danny Padilla survived a heart attack
Mike Martarazzo 39 2004 clogged arteries caused by steroid use(2007 heart attack triple bypass heart surgery) still living

[d3C3pT0R]

Low dose and sparse use of Androgenic Anabolic Steroid is  harmfull, especially for men living in an modern environment "enriched" with xeno-estrogens.

[Rocket]

I'm not going get started on "oh my god steroids are evil" crowd, but there are other options. Look into Ostarine and lgd-4033.

The problem with steroids is that they are illegal and by default they come from unscrupulous sources which raises the risks inherent in ANY drug, vitamin, or supplement.

Edited by Rocket, 23 August 2014 - 07:29 PM.

[PickaPeck]

I've been in gyms and dojos all my life.  I have seen a lot of steroid and GH use. The users tend to be risk taker personalitys or even addictive personalities.  the ones that stick with them become obsessed and very focused.  One major problem with these things is their use is addictive, to the point where the physique that is developed and dependant upon the drugs becomes the major support for the ego.  Therefore the drug have to stay in plce or the ego suffers.  As a class anabolic steroids are fairly safe but the psychology or the user becomes more and more dysfunctino over time of use.  It is common for use to escalate to 50 times the therapeutic dose.  Now there are not a lot of drugs that can be tolerated at 50 times therapeutic dose ut over time this destroys the body.  So in the end, what might have been an overall negligable health risk at a therapeutic dose, like a true testosterone replacement dose, becoms a self destructive risk taking lifestyle usually in search of a bodybuilding title or strongman title.

 

Rather than taking such a road it is probably best to focus on nutrition, good hard training, and the correct amount if rest. if one of the three were more important it would be nutrition. The cleaner and more natural the food the better will be the consumer's health.

[Adamzski]

I'm not going get started on "oh my god steroids are evil" crowd, but there are other options. Look into Ostarine and lgd-4033.

The problem with steroids is that they are illegal and by default they come from unscrupulous sources which raises the risks inherent in ANY drug, vitamin, or supplement.

 

I have had a bit of a look at lgd-4033 after coming across a banner ad here for research chemicals.

 

Searched some, taken orally so no need for injections and cheap 65 euro.

 

Have you taken it? Is it something you could just take on its own? And at 1/2 the dose BB's take?

[Raptor87]

People are afraid of anabolic steroids and long term side effects but are instead thinking of using research chemicals? Where is the reason behind this? Do you even work out and eat properly? 

[Adamzski]

Yeah I know lol, it is a little crazy. Some of these things have been used for years now though. Maybe something like lgd-4033 that has had a phase 1 trial http://www.ligand.co..._ICE_poster.pdf could be ok to just try at 1/10 of the dose that a BBer would use. Not having to inject anything is a plus, along with the legality and cost.

 

I get in and out of the gym, but when I do get into I go hard and eat.

[Raptor87]

Yeah I know lol, it is a little crazy. Some of these things have been used for years now though. Maybe something like lgd-4033 that has had a phase 1 trial http://www.ligand.co..._ICE_poster.pdf could be ok to just try at 1/10 of the dose that a BBer would use. Not having to inject anything is a plus, along with the legality and cost.

 

I get in and out of the gym, but when I do get into I go hard and eat.

 

If you are going to use 1/10 of what a bodybuilder then you probably wont have any results and are taking a bigger risk with being a lab rat. Either stick to something you do know or do it clean. You will get the same results clean if we are talking those minimum doses. 

[Rocket]

Yes, I've taken lgd once about 2 months ago concurrent with resistance training and my weight went up by about 5 pounds by the end of the cycle. I weighed myself at the gym every workout so it wasn't that I ate a big meal one day type of thing. As far as shutdown goes simply idk.... I'm starting anther cycle soon and I'll probably have a better idea then about lgd.

[Adamzski]

Yes, I've taken lgd once about 2 months ago concurrent with resistance training and my weight went up by about 5 pounds by the end of the cycle. I weighed myself at the gym every workout so it wasn't that I ate a big meal one day type of thing. As far as shutdown goes simply idk.... I'm starting anther cycle soon and I'll probably have a better idea then about lgd.

 

Thanks for responding, what was your dose? 

 

What stage were you at prior to it? Had you been eating well and training for years or?

[Rocket]

10ml measured out every morning. That should equate to 10mg if dosage info was correct.... You can't be certain with research chemicals. I know there are studies with doses as low as 1mg, but I figure either go big or go home. I was putting on approx 2lb per month with resistance training and nutrition, until I plateaued after about 16 pounds gain. I went on the lgd cycle and about 5 pounds in maybe 5 weeks. Not scientific but I'd like to do another cycle and see what happens. I was also taking mk677 since I'm an ectomoprh I figured I need help with gaining muscles. While on the lgd I hit all time personal records in the gym. Benched 200 and curled 50s.

[3mp0w3r]

Interesting thread.  I notice a theme with the list of dead professional body builders.  Heart and kidney problems.  Testosterone is known to elevate the bad triglycerides so massive doses for years on end makes sense.  But I suspect the renal failure would have to do with many of the crazy drugs they use a few days prior to the contest to get rid of water.

 

Are the experimental compounds significantly cheaper than testosterone?   

 

[sensei]

 

 

 Aside from causing testicle shrinkage (your body is lazy. If supplied with an outside source of a hormone, it will stop production of the same hormone. Melatonin, testosterone, etc), synthetic or exogenous natural testosterone damage adrenal glands, kidneys, and the cardiovascular system.

The research about steroid use, as with IGF1, and HGH, seems to indicate that it may SEEM to improve health, but it shortens life span.

 

 

Testosterone replacement therapy in post andropause males or pre-andropause males with low T actually does the opposite with respect to cardiovascular health.

 

Your body isn't lazy, it keeps homeostasis, so when the hypothalamus senses appropriate levels of T in the body, it stops producing gonadotropin releasing hormone, this in turn causes the pituitary to stop releasing luteinizing hormone.  Without the LH leydig cells in the testes stop producing T, and can atrophy.

 

As far as testicular atrophy, HCG Human chorionic gonadotropin taken along with TRT will prevent testicular atrophy. Human chorionic gonadotropin mimics LH in the body.

[3mp0w3r]

There certainly is alot of misconceptions with testosterone.  Most people just repeat the garbage they have heard in the media without doing a literature search to verify (including some docs).  I know a few bodybuilders that have gone on some pretty big cycles.  They never noticed testicular atrophy.  But a few of them had big issues restarting their own natural androgen production after cycles (despite post cycle HcG and estrogen blockers).  Once you start TRT, you are supposed to keep going indefinitely.

 

The problem with testosterone replacement is that there is not a general consensus.  Many GPs and endocrinologists disagree with it.    So the trouble I see with that is that if you move or your doc dies/retires, then you have to find someone who agrees with it.  You have to get regular check ups, go to the pharmacy often.  Travelling overseas with testosterone is likely going to be a headache.  There are alot of simple, logistical issues with going on testosterone replacement that don't get mentioned.  Probably the biggest worry I would have would be if it became out of fashion in the medical community.  All it would take would be a big multi centre study claiming that it was harmful.  

[sensei]

 

 

The problem with testosterone replacement is that there is not a general consensus.  Many GPs and endocrinologists disagree with it.    So the trouble I see with that is that if you move or your doc dies/retires, then you have to find someone who agrees with it.  You have to get regular check ups, go to the pharmacy often.  Travelling overseas with testosterone is likely going to be a headache.  There are alot of simple, logistical issues with going on testosterone replacement that don't get mentioned.  Probably the biggest worry I would have would be if it became out of fashion in the medical community.  All it would take would be a big multi centre study claiming that it was harmful.  

 

Based on the industry, the $$, the number of baby boomers taking TRT, etc -- I can pretty much guarantee that you can find a doctor that will prescribe just about anywhere.

 

I live in a small city/town of about 45,000 population -- multiple doctors offer TRT in my town alone.

 

I just had my 100 day compunding script for lipo T cream filled -- mail order -- 100% legitimate, checkups are no more often than ~3 months, which if you are in the post 40 age group you are likely going that often for your diagnostic tests/checkups anyway.

 

Without filing through insurance, it only costs me $1/day.

 

FYI -- there is a consensus that TRT for low T males actually prevents cardiovascular disease in low T males

 

 

Edited by sensei, 15 January 2015 - 03:24 PM.

[3mp0w3r]

Sensei, I assume you are in the US.  The US is probably the most progressive in terms of TRT.  I am in Australia.  While it is available here, you can not get it prescribed on the PBS (prescription benefits scheme) unless you are proven to have hypogonadism by a strict criteria (less than 8nmol or so) on 3 separate blood tests.  That just means that your script is not subsidised by the government if you do not meet that criteria.  You can still get a script and pay completely out of pocket but it is difficult. In general, it is mostly males over 65 and those that meet the PBS criteria that are on TRT here.  I know that in North America, many clinics use tables with corresponding testosterone levels for decade age.  But in Australia, you could be routinely at 9.5nmol (around the level of a 70+ year old) and be called normal.  It is a very simplistic and conservative way of doing things.  Currently andrology is somewhat scoffed at and unpopular within the medical community in Aus. If you search Adelaide (>1million population) for doctors and andrology you basically get 2 results.  Hopefully it will change with time.  

[sensei]

Sensei, I assume you are in the US.  The US is probably the most progressive in terms of TRT.  I am in Australia.  While it is available here, you can not get it prescribed on the PBS (prescription benefits scheme) unless you are proven to have hypogonadism by a strict criteria (less than 8nmol or so) on 3 separate blood tests.  That just means that your script is not subsidised by the government if you do not meet that criteria.  You can still get a script and pay completely out of pocket but it is difficult. In general, it is mostly males over 65 and those that meet the PBS criteria that are on TRT here.  I know that in North America, many clinics use tables with corresponding testosterone levels for decade age.  But in Australia, you could be routinely at 9.5nmol (around the level of a 70+ year old) and be called normal.  It is a very simplistic and conservative way of doing things.  Currently andrology is somewhat scoffed at and unpopular within the medical community in Aus. If you search Adelaide (>1million population) for doctors and andrology you basically get 2 results.  Hopefully it will change with time.  

 

Yes, US.

 

And here many docs will actually write it off-label to get your total and free T to optimal levels, not just median. As in optimal for a 25 year old.

[3mp0w3r]

 

Sensei, I assume you are in the US.  The US is probably the most progressive in terms of TRT.  I am in Australia.  While it is available here, you can not get it prescribed on the PBS (prescription benefits scheme) unless you are proven to have hypogonadism by a strict criteria (less than 8nmol or so) on 3 separate blood tests.  That just means that your script is not subsidised by the government if you do not meet that criteria.  You can still get a script and pay completely out of pocket but it is difficult. In general, it is mostly males over 65 and those that meet the PBS criteria that are on TRT here.  I know that in North America, many clinics use tables with corresponding testosterone levels for decade age.  But in Australia, you could be routinely at 9.5nmol (around the level of a 70+ year old) and be called normal.  It is a very simplistic and conservative way of doing things.  Currently andrology is somewhat scoffed at and unpopular within the medical community in Aus. If you search Adelaide (>1million population) for doctors and andrology you basically get 2 results.  Hopefully it will change with time.  

 

Yes, US.

 

And here many docs will actually write it off-label to get your total and free T to optimal levels, not just median. As in optimal for a 25 year old.

 

 

I think that makes more sense.  If someone comes in because they have symptoms, the response shouldn't be that your still in the reference range if you are 40 and have the levels of an 80 year old.  It should be based on clinical findings.  

[nowayout]

 

 

Sensei, I assume you are in the US.  The US is probably the most progressive in terms of TRT.  I am in Australia.  While it is available here, you can not get it prescribed on the PBS (prescription benefits scheme) unless you are proven to have hypogonadism by a strict criteria (less than 8nmol or so) on 3 separate blood tests.  That just means that your script is not subsidised by the government if you do not meet that criteria.  You can still get a script and pay completely out of pocket but it is difficult. In general, it is mostly males over 65 and those that meet the PBS criteria that are on TRT here.  I know that in North America, many clinics use tables with corresponding testosterone levels for decade age.  But in Australia, you could be routinely at 9.5nmol (around the level of a 70+ year old) and be called normal.  It is a very simplistic and conservative way of doing things.  Currently andrology is somewhat scoffed at and unpopular within the medical community in Aus. If you search Adelaide (>1million population) for doctors and andrology you basically get 2 results.  Hopefully it will change with time.  

 

Yes, US.

 

And here many docs will actually write it off-label to get your total and free T to optimal levels, not just median. As in optimal for a 25 year old.

 

 

I think that makes more sense.  If someone comes in because they have symptoms, the response shouldn't be that your still in the reference range if you are 40 and have the levels of an 80 year old.  It should be based on clinical findings.  

 

 

Yes and no. 

 

There is no "levels of an 80 year old."  And there is no "optimal levels for a 25-year old." Those are myths based on ignorance of the meaning of the relevant statistics.  Of course there are certain age-related averages, but they are almost meaningless on an individual basis, since there is a wide spread of values for testosterone levels in young men who are still completely healthy.   People are genetically different and respond differently to testosterone and other hormones in the body.  Somme need less than others. 

 

Clinical findings should guide the doctor, sure, but the clinical symptoms are really much more important than blood tests. 
 

Edited by nowayout, 16 January 2015 - 02:29 PM.

[sensei]

 

 

 

There is no "levels of an 80 year old."  And there is no "optimal levels for a 25-year old." 

 

 

 

There absolutely are empirically objective "levels of an 80 year old" -- mean, median, and 2-sigma measurable, from the 80 year old male population.

 

And there are subjectively determined "optimal levels for a 25 year old"  - levels that provide proper mood, muscular growth and maintenance, libido, etc without causing side effects like gynecomastia, early MPB, or acne.

 

Just because there is a large range -- does not mean such a range is biologically optimal.

 

Unfortunately, many adult males today are clinically overweight and/or obese OR EXTREMELY STRESSED-- the adipose tissue increases circulating estrogen and decreases testosterone, as does stress; yet these low readings due to poor health -- are incorrectly interpreted by persons like yourself as being "normal".

Edited by sensei, 16 January 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[cani!]

I don't know if they shorten lifespan but they enhance quality of life significantly for men over 35. Most sides effects/early deaths are due to abuse imo. Bodybuilders uses obscene amounts of Testosterone (1, 2 grams a week).

 

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while. 

 

Yes, living long will be nice but living long and feeling great just makes more sense to me. 

 

Edited by cani!, 16 January 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[3mp0w3r]

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while.  

 

I agree with you on the depression aspect.  That connection seems fairly accepted now.  I just watched the movie "The Imitation Game".  (Don't read further if you plan to watch and don't know the story)  It is based on Alan Turing's life.  Despite coming up with a machine that helped win the war he was given a choice of jail or "chemical castration" because it became known he was gay.  The interesting thing is that after a year or 2 of this he committed suicide.  

 

What I am not sure about is 100mg/week.  When you start taking exogenous testosterone you shut off your own production.  It wouldn't be ideal to give yourself a really low dose but still end up with lower production and the same level or less at the end of it!  

 

What would give me hesitancy starting at 35 is that you have potentially 50 years of it.  Many things can change in that time.  

 

A few years ago there was a paper published about hormone replacement for menopausal women.  The study found a link with breast cancer.  It caused a bit of a stir.  It took a few years to discover that they had used a non representative population (ie. many of the women were much older than menopause years) and there was selection bias.  That was a multicenter study published in a respected journal and it was proven inaccurate eventually.  However, during that first year or so many docs advocated ceasing that therapy.   It might be unlikely that the same thing will happen with testosterone but we have seen some pretty wild changes in public/medical opinion in the past already.  Perhaps I am being paranoid.  It probably reflects the concept of not wanting to be dependant on docs for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would be the same thing if I was an insulin dependant diabetic.  But right now, I have no regular prescriptions and would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

[cani!]

 

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while.  

 

I agree with you on the depression aspect.  That connection seems fairly accepted now.  I just watched the movie "The Imitation Game".  (Don't read further if you plan to watch and don't know the story)  It is based on Alan Turing's life.  Despite coming up with a machine that helped win the war he was given a choice of jail or "chemical castration" because it became known he was gay.  The interesting thing is that after a year or 2 of this he committed suicide.  

 

What I am not sure about is 100mg/week.  When you start taking exogenous testosterone you shut off your own production.  It wouldn't be ideal to give yourself a really low dose but still end up with lower production and the same level or less at the end of it!  

 

What would give me hesitancy starting at 35 is that you have potentially 50 years of it.  Many things can change in that time.  

 

A few years ago there was a paper published about hormone replacement for menopausal women.  The study found a link with breast cancer.  It caused a bit of a stir.  It took a few years to discover that they had used a non representative population (ie. many of the women were much older than menopause years) and there was selection bias.  That was a multicenter study published in a respected journal and it was proven inaccurate eventually.  However, during that first year or so many docs advocated ceasing that therapy.   It might be unlikely that the same thing will happen with testosterone but we have seen some pretty wild changes in public/medical opinion in the past already.  Perhaps I am being paranoid.  It probably reflects the concept of not wanting to be dependant on docs for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would be the same thing if I was an insulin dependant diabetic.  But right now, I have no regular prescriptions and would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

 

 

Intersting post!

 

100 mg a week is more than what you would normally produce at 35. So even if you would completely shut down due to your use (which may happen but most likely not), you probably would have more testosterone than what you would have naturally, or at least, you would be in optimal range.

 

I won't have to go look for to have a script for TRT: our team's doctor give Testosterone shot to most players all year round...

[sensei]

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while. 

 

Yes, living long will be nice but living long and feeling great just makes more sense to me. 

 

And it's not expensive -- 100 day supply is only $100 including shipping  compounded 100mg/gram

 

The dosage is 100mg of T applied to skin daily -- transdermal absorption is 10% or less -- so total absorbed T = ~70mg/week

Edited by sensei, 16 January 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[nowayout]

 

 

 

 

There is no "levels of an 80 year old."  And there is no "optimal levels for a 25-year old." 

 

 

 

There absolutely are empirically objective "levels of an 80 year old" -- mean, median, and 2-sigma measurable, from the 80 year old male population.

 

And there are subjectively determined "optimal levels for a 25 year old"  - levels that provide proper mood, muscular growth and maintenance, libido, etc without causing side effects like gynecomastia, early MPB, or acne.

".

 

 

Subjective, not objective.  And "optimal" levels are different for different men on TRT.  Some need a small dose and/or lower blood levels and react very adversely to more.  Some need a lot more to feel good.  TRT doctors will tell you that different men feel best at different serum levels - there is no objective optimal. 

 

This likely has to do with genetic and environmental differences.  Some people may simply be more sensitive to the testosterone they have (due to variation in receptor densities, for example), and/or to the whole domino effect of downstream processes in various organs, including the whole slew of neurotransmitters and brain circuits affected by sex hormones (which are notoriously individual).

 
 

Edited by nowayout, 16 January 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[sensei]

 

 

Subjective, not objective.  And "optimal" levels are different for different men on TRT.  Some need a small dose and/or lower blood levels and react very adversely to more.  Some need a lot more to feel any difference. 

 

 

 

There are objective levels of T for 80 year olds -- that is a fact. I never said optimal for 80 year olds. But if you measure T in one hundred 80 year old males you will get a range from  approximately 150-700 for total T, and approximately 5-6 for a lower bound of Free T.

 

It is inarguable.

 

here are the ranges for 40's 50's 60's and 70's

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15638872

[nowayout]

 

 

 

Subjective, not objective.  And "optimal" levels are different for different men on TRT.  Some need a small dose and/or lower blood levels and react very adversely to more.  Some need a lot more to feel any difference. 

 

 

 

There are objective levels of T for 80 year olds -- that is a fact. I never said optimal for 80 year olds. But if you measure T in one hundred 80 year old males you will get a range from  approximately 150-700 for total T, and approximately 5-6 for a lower bound of Free T.

 

It is inarguable.

 

here are the ranges for 40's 50's 60's and 70's

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15638872

 

 

I had higlighted where you said the "optimal" levels for a 25 year old were subjective.  I was agreeing with you that they are subjective.  The objective averages in isolation have little clinical meaning with respect to any given individual.

Edited by nowayout, 16 January 2015 - 07:58 PM.

[sensei]

 

 

I higlighted where you said the "optimal" levels for a 25 year old were subjective.  I was agreeing with you that they are subjective.  The objective averages in isolation have little clinical meaning with respect to any given individual. 

 

 

 

I would argue that the averages explicitly show a decline with age, and that the resulting:

loss of muscle tone,

loss of muscle mass,

increase in body fat,

increase in depressive mood,

decrease in libido 

 

That are found in almost all males post andropause (~45 and older), and assumed to be 'normal aspects of aging' are the result of low T.

 

This is objective empirical evidence that levels of T lower than the average found in healthy 25-30 year old males - results in low T symptomology -- in almost (95%) all post-andropause males.

 

I'm in my 40's and my physician has set a free T level of 16 as the target, I'm currently around 6.

Edited by sensei, 16 January 2015 - 08:05 PM.