95 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

Ginkgo Biloba is an ancient Chinese medicine used for a number of disorders, but the most interesting inclusion of this herb was made as the neutral herb in one of the most popular Chinese brain medicines for mental decline and mental retardation. Ginkgo + Ginseng + Gotu Kola was the remedy. Ginseng would be the "warm" herb, meaning it was stimulating. Gotu Kola would be the "cold" herb, meaning it was sedating. Ginkgo would be the neutral herb, which ties the two together.

What makes this herb interesting to me is that I have taken it thinking it would help with ADHD, but all I noticed was flush face and an ability to bleed for 15 minutes. It is great for preventing stroke and preventing stress from stroke due to its blood vessel enhancing, platelet de-aggregating, plaque removal, stress-reducing properties. It's a true circulation tonic, if there ever was one. This may attribute to some increased oxygen in the brain, but it is not, in my opinion it's primary mechanism of action.

Ginkgo Biloba is a...

• Circulation Tonic.
  
  • ​Reduces Platelet Aggregation.
  • Reduces Plaque in Arteries.
  • Ups blood vessel elasticity and strength.
  • Increases penile blood flow.
  • ACE inhibitor (not AChE).
• GABA Receptor Antagonist.
  
  • Bilobalide blocks the rho(1) binding site.
  • Potent competitive antagonist comparable to Pictrotoxin and Bicuculline.
• Glycine Antagonist and Regulator.
  
  • ​Ginkgolide B blocks the main glycine binding site.
  • Bilobalide reduces glycine release.
• Norepinephrine Re-Uptake Inhibitor. (100mg/kg) Inhibits NET, not MAO or DAT.
• 5-HT3 Antagonist. Ginkgolide B & Bilobalide block the 5-HT3(A) receptor.
• Neuroprotector. Bilobalide seems to be at the root of a half a dozen effects.
• Inducer of CYP3A. Bilobalide significantly induces the p450 enzyme CYP3A.
• Regulator of Glutamate. Reduces glutamate release after stroke.

Ginkgo is nootropic, but it isn't a nootropic by itself. It's a nootropic enhancer. It is a neutral nootropic. It's supposed to be used in synergy, to counteract ill effects from other herbs, drugs, and supplements. That's why people have become so disappointed with it as a nootropic. It isn't warm or cold, it is luke warm.

Let me explain. Gotu Kola is an herb that raises GABA levels, so to counteract this, Ginkgo blocks GABA receptors from getting too overactive and sedating you, keeping a healthy balance. Ashwagandha (or another Ginseng) raises monoamine levels, and Ginkgo blocks 5-HT3, which is an excitatory serotonin receptor, so it prevents some serotonin syndrome-like effects (nausea, anxiety, twitches, etc.) from the Ginseng.

Don't dis the Ginkgo without knowing how to stack it.

[MrHappy]

Very useful!

[manic_racetam]

So have you tried the triple herb stack yet? Also, it looks like the selegiline might be working or else you're just on one tonight! This is an amazing post

[#1hit]

I'm dying to try the tri-supplement chinese stack now because of this post!

[Erstwhile]

Thanks for the great post! It makes me wonder if ginkgo should be necessary in all nootropic stacks..

[AbolishtheState]

A very informative and interesting post, sir! Ginkgo was my introduction to the world of nootropics, and preceded my use of other cognitive enhancers by some time. Though I have not done any exacting studies, I agree that it likely potentiates other nootropics, and your explanation of the synergism between ginkgo and more direct cognitive enhancers seems spot on to me. I am definitely interested in further research in this regard. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Edited by AbolishtheState, 10 November 2011 - 02:30 AM.

[JChief]

I thought I read somewhere that piracetam thins the blood? I know that Ginkgo does this too so I wonder if there is any risk combining. I would appreciate someone elses thoughts on this who knows what they are talking about.

[#1hit]

Ginkgo Biloba is an ancient Chinese medicine used for a number of disorders, but the most interesting inclusion of this herb was made as the neutral herb in one of the most popular Chinese brain medicines for mental decline and mental retardation. Ginkgo + Ginseng + Gotu Kola was the remedy. Ginseng would be the "warm" herb, meaning it was stimulating. Gotu Kola would be the "cold" herb, meaning it was sedating. Ginkgo would be the neutral herb, which ties the two together.

Just curious, what original source did you read that information about the synergistic use of these 3 herbs in chinese medicine? I think it would make for a fascinating read .

[abelard lindsay]

Ashwagandha (or another Ginseng) raises monoamine levels, and Ginkgo blocks 5-HT3, which is an excitatory serotonin receptor, so it prevents some serotonin syndrome-like effects (nausea, anxiety, twitches, etc.) from the Ginseng.

Oh, now that explains why my Rockstar energy drink has Ginkgo and Ginseng in it. I drink 4 cans of that stuff a day, or roughly 1200mg of Ginkgo and 200mg of Panax Ginseng. FYI, Rockstar's formula was not designed by some marketing dorks at Coca-Cola but by the son of a guy who had written more than 20 books on herbal medicine.

[Neurotik]

I've been doing Gotu Kola + Green Tea for a while now.

This combination focuses me in a calm, even-tempered way, and relaxes me like a rug on valium - but not to the point of drowsiness or inability to function. In fact, it relieves all anxiety and gets me in the mood to think and work.

I can't stress how important green tea is in particular. I know I tend to belabour the point around here, but I'll keep saying it. I don't mean the junk that comes in bags. I mean quality loose-leaf green tea. It's a joy to really experience it and brew it in a proper porcelain gaiwan.

Plus, deep meditation. I don't need to recount the benefits. They are well-known, proven, documented. That alone can make a world of difference.

[thedevinroy]

Ginkgo Biloba is an ancient Chinese medicine used for a number of disorders, but the most interesting inclusion of this herb was made as the neutral herb in one of the most popular Chinese brain medicines for mental decline and mental retardation. Ginkgo + Ginseng + Gotu Kola was the remedy. Ginseng would be the "warm" herb, meaning it was stimulating. Gotu Kola would be the "cold" herb, meaning it was sedating. Ginkgo would be the neutral herb, which ties the two together.

Just curious, what original source did you read that information about the synergistic use of these 3 herbs in chinese medicine? I think it would make for a fascinating read .

Damn, I can't find it, but I do remember that traditional Chinese medicines were 3 or more herbs, usually a hot cold and neutral... This article mentions the combo a little bit, and it's a good read: http://www.mindpub.com/altern06.htm . I dare say my mind groups things, so it may have been a conclusion of more than one article in a single wikipedia/google rampage for answers.

[thedevinroy]

I thought I read somewhere that piracetam thins the blood? I know that Ginkgo does this too so I wonder if there is any risk combining. I would appreciate someone elses thoughts on this who knows what they are talking about.

Ginkgo prevents both types of strokes: vessel and artery. However, it will make you bleed more. Also, Gotu Kola, though I didn't mention this before will help speed up the recovery process from wounds, as well as clear up some scar tissue. I noticed paper cuts took 3x less time to heal when taking a gram a day (whole herb). Some old scars I had lightened up too. However, Gotu Kola also thins the blood...

Taking with vitamin K or another coagulator like Yunnan Baiyao may help.

[thedevinroy]

So have you tried the triple herb stack yet? Also, it looks like the selegiline might be working or else you're just on one tonight! This is an amazing post

Not with the Ginkgo, but I'm loving Ashwagandha, and I should stop by the herb store tomorrow to pick up some Ginkgo and Gotu Kola since my Picamilon is running low. I've taken them all at separate times... I'll let you know in a couple days.

[thedevinroy]

Tried the herbal combo: Ashwagandha (6mg-9mg Withanolides), Ginkgo Biloba (120mg of 24/6), and Gotu Kola (450mg whole). It was extremely inhibiting, unlike its implications. I felt my GABA and serotonin receptors were overly clouded. No wonder they use his for stress. Not to worry...

My grandma gave me some Zinc she had left over and wasn't using. I took some before bed (12.5mg) and my mind just opened up in 30 minutes. My muscles were activated and alive again. I could think precisely and accurately for the first time since Strattera treatment. I lay there awake in bed and wonder why this never occurred to me before. This morning I took the herbal combo again to treat the hyperactivity associated with Selegiline use. I added some Zinc (20mg) to the mix, and it cured the slowness from the herbal combo until the hyperactivity of the Selegiline wore off about 8 hours later.

Zinc is a direct NMDA antagonist and GABA antagonist/modulator as well as an important co-factor in converting serotonin to melatonin via activating vitamin B6 (those with ADHD often have low levels of melatonin). It is also a kind of dopamine re-uptake inhibitor. Don't take too much, because zinc toxicity is a bitch: sudden vomiting followed by a whole day of headache, muscle ache, and fatigue. (experience)

Conclusion:
The tri-herbal complex is great for fighting stress and calming down, but if you want to function, take it with Zinc.

Edited by devinthayer, 14 November 2011 - 06:35 PM.

[Luminosity]

I like Ginkgo and Gotu Kola taken together for mental clarity, and eyesight, and skin appearance. I will add green tea at times, and Camu Camu for vitamin C. Personally I think that green tea made from tea bags is fine as long as the quality of the tea is ok and many of them are. I take Gaia Organics alcohol extracts of Gingko and Gotu Kola. There are alcohol-free extracts for those with a problem with alcohol. Raw herbs will likely have a different effect than extracts, and take longer to work. I have tried most brands of alcohol extracts of these herbs, Herb Pharm, Eclectic Institute, etc, but I feel that Gaia is the best. If you want to try raw herbs, Nature's Way tends to be a reliable brand.

I've seen the combination of Gingko, Gotu Kola, Ginseng and Wild Oats as a liquid formula.

I know that a lot of people take Gingko and Gotu Kola for problems associated with aging. Many of the those who take it are middle-aged or elderly. I don't know if it helps younger people as much, but I honestly haven't looked into it. I also don't know how it would effect those with ADD. For me, it is like focusing a camera lens. Suddenly my brain works.

Any substance will effect different people differently. I always buy good quality stuff so that isn't a factor, and I try things one by one. I don't take things near bed time because that could cause insomnia or bad dreams, especially these herbs. Energetically, you take herbs that you want to go to your extremities or skin, like this one, on an empty stomach, if possible.

Edited by Luminosity, 15 November 2011 - 06:42 AM.

[thedevinroy]

I like Ginkgo and Gotu Kola taken together for mental clarity, and eyesight, and skin appearance. I will add green tea at times, and Camu Camu for vitamin C. Personally I think that green tea made from tea bags is fine as long as the quality of the tea is ok and many of them are. I take Gaia Organics alcohol extracts of Gingko and Gotu Kola. There are alcohol-free extracts for those with a problem with alcohol. Raw herbs will likely have a different effect than extracts, and take longer to work. I have tried most brands of alcohol extracts of these herbs, Herb Pharm, Eclectic Institute, etc, but I feel that Gaia is the best. If you want to try raw herbs, Nature's Way tends to be a reliable brand.

I've seen the combination of Gingko, Gotu Kola, Ginseng and Wild Oats as a liquid formula.

I know that a lot of people take Gingko and Gotu Kola for problems associated with aging. Many of the those who take it are middle-aged or elderly. I don't know if it helps younger people as much, but I honestly haven't looked into it. I also don't know how it would effect those with ADD. For me, it is like focusing a camera lens. Suddenly my brain works.

Any substance will effect different people differently. I always buy good quality stuff so that isn't a factor, and I try things one by one. I don't take things near bed time because that could cause insomnia or bad dreams, especially these herbs. Energetically, you take herbs that you want to go to your extremities or skin, like this one, on an empty stomach, if possible.

Noted on the empty stomach administration. Thank you for that tip.

Ginkgo and Gotu Kola I find to be a quite sedating combo. Ginkgo by itself, in the 24/6 extract is surprisingly more potent than what I remember taking years ago. I feel warm, stable, and "good". Gotu Kola I find very sedating past 500mg of whole herb extract. In fact, I find it hard to function. Luckily, it cures my vertigo and decreases pain sensation, but I might as well be a sloth. I move slow, think slow, talk slow, type slow, etc. Zinc fixed that up, so I was probably deficient.

I don't have problems with dreams anymore. Spiritual cleanse took care of that. I generally don't have a problem going to sleep, especially with the Gotu Kola in my daily regime.

[canz]

Excellent post. This may be part of what I'm looknig for in the department of sustainable mood enhancers.

[moomoo]

I've been taking Ginko for longer than *anything* at all in my life. It's the one constant since I was in my early twenties. I find Ginko acts like Christopher Hitchen's description of cigarettes:

"if you're hungry it'll make you feel less hungry, if you have no appetite it'll help develop one. if you're stressed cigarettes will calm you down, and if you're feeling tired nicotine will pick you up".

I wouldn't go as far to say it's of universal benefit, but it's been good to me (as has green tea).

[Verne]

Some of the posts are making me want to give it a try again. For me Ginkgo Biloba did nothing but strongly increase my level of agitation, or even create it. Glad to hear it works for some people and that I was probably in the minority for any adverse reactions.

[thedevinroy]

Some of the posts are making me want to give it a try again. For me Ginkgo Biloba did nothing but strongly increase my level of agitation, or even create it. Glad to hear it works for some people and that I was probably in the minority for any adverse reactions.

It is an NRI, so it would cause agitation in some. Norepinephrine is a strange breed neurotransmitter. On one hand, not enough and you are depressed, on the other, too much and you get anxiety and irritibility. Plus, as I mentioned, Ginkgo is to be used in conjunction with other herbs. Ashwagandha and Gotu Kola are the big ones.

[Luminosity]

In Chinese medicine, and in my experience, raw herbs can have very different energetic effects than cooked herbs. The raw version of an herb can be cooling and cooked version can be heating. Liquid extracts and "tea" pills made of Chinese Medicines will generally use cooked herbs. If you haven't tried cooked versions of Gingko and Gotu Kola, then you might want to try it again. Liquid alcohol or glycerin extracts, probably Gaia Organics, would give you the best trial. Alcohol extracts are preferred unless it is a problem as alcohol aids absorption. That being said, if alcohol is any kind of a problem, then it's not necessary. Take them on an empty stomach, according to the dosage on the bottle. Wait about twenty minutes to eat. Discontinue use at least a few hours before bedtime. I would try one for a week, then the other, then put them together. If you have significant adverse reactions, I would discontinue that herb. I would not take more than directed for the trial. It might or might not work for you but at least you will really know one way or the other. iHerb has these medicines.

I find it interesting how herbs that most people find stimulating are sedating to people with ADD and vice versa. I find Gotu Kola to be mildly stimulating. Ashwagandha put me into a stupor. Maybe some day someone will write the book or open an herbal pharmacy for people with learning disabilities and I think it might be Devin. Wouldn't it be cool if you could go to a herbal apothecary and get help for stuff like that?

I recommend the book Asian Health Secrets by Letha Hadaddy. That's where I learned to take stuff intended for my extremities or skin on an empty stomach to take advantage of the yin or scattering energy. Substances intended for your core may be better taken after meals due to the yang energy. My experience confirms this.

Edited by Luminosity, 16 November 2011 - 12:55 AM.

[gamesguru]

I like ginkgo more than vinpocetine because it doesn't deplete neurotransmitters. It probably promotes good mood and healthy cognition, with practically no risk of addiction/abuse.

[thedevinroy]

In Chinese medicine, and in my experience, raw herbs can have very different energetic effects than cooked herbs. The raw version of an herb can be cooling and cooked version can be heating. Liquid extracts and "tea" pills made of Chinese Medicines will generally use cooked herbs. If you haven't tried cooked versions of Gingko and Gotu Kola, then you might want to try it again. Liquid alcohol or glycerin extracts, probably Gaia Organics, would give you the best trial. Alcohol extracts are preferred unless it is a problem as alcohol aids absorption. That being said, if alcohol is any kind of a problem, then it's not necessary. Take them on an empty stomach, according to the dosage on the bottle. Wait about twenty minutes to eat. Discontinue use at least a few hours before bedtime. I would try one for a week, then the other, then put them together. If you have significant adverse reactions, I would discontinue that herb. I would not take more than directed for the trial. It might or might not work for you but at least you will really know one way or the other. iHerb has these medicines.

I find it interesting how herbs that most people find stimulating are sedating to people with ADD and vice versa. I find Gotu Kola to be mildly stimulating. Ashwagandha put me into a stupor. Maybe some day someone will write the book or open an herbal pharmacy for people with learning disabilities and I think it might be Devin. Wouldn't it be cool if you could go to a herbal apothecary and get help for stuff like that?

I recommend the book Asian Health Secrets by Letha Hadaddy. That's where I learned to take stuff intended for my extremities or skin on an empty stomach to take advantage of the yin or scattering energy. Substances intended for your core may be better taken after meals due to the yang energy. My experience confirms this.

Interesting. Gotu Kola I might try a tincture instead of a powder/capsule. If it can give you stimulation, I should give it a shot to make sure I didn't get some baked Gotu cookie capsule.

Gotu Kola is a strange herb, having a compound very similar to memantine. It is a GAD inducer (ups GABA) as well as an NMDA antagonist and a slight AChE inhibitor (which would explain why it cures my vertigo). Having ADHD, my GABA-A receptors are pretty dense thanks to low dopamine stimulation. Thus, I'm most sensitive to its GABAergic properties and why I have to take Zinc and Ginkgo. It also has a bit of vitamin B's in it.

Ashwagandha inducers Acetylcholine Transferase, so that may put you in a stupor by inhibiting methylation (more acetylcholine, less TMG). Since I'm taking Selegiline, I saw a pretty powerful synergy in the memory department (Selegiline increases AChE activity) without experiencing a huge drop in monoamines.

I'll have you know, I have very mixed results on the stimulating/sedative table as far as Chamomile goes. The drop in GABA, increase in glutamate, seems to account for the drop in monoamines.

I was thinking of writing about natural/OTC treatments for Multiple Sclerosis. Ashwagandha and Phosphatidylcholine seem to be the best candidates so far (on top of a multivitamin). Other herbs and fats (such as Intellect Tree oil) also help re-myelinate, but those two make the most sense.

Yin yang herbal stuff still doesn't make sense to me yet. As far as experimenting with methods of sanctioned administration, I'm all over it.

[thedevinroy]

I like ginkgo more than vinpocetine because it doesn't deplete neurotransmitters. It probably promotes good mood and healthy cognition, with practically no risk of addiction/abuse.

I would dare say it is quite a bit safer than vinpocetine. Far less side effects.

[gamesguru]

How much does everyone take daily? I usually take ginkgo twice daily, both times mixing 100-200 mg of 28% extract with water. It also has a very mild flavor, certainly not repugnant. Is there any reason why brewing tea with it might release more nutrients?

[Luminosity]

dasheenster,

If you are taking a liquid extract of gingko, it might have already been cooked in the factory and you would not want to do it again. If you are going to brew a tea of Chinese herbs you would want to look into the directions for that particular herb and get the right form of it.

As far as liquid extracts, I'm told that Nature's Answer uses a cold extraction process. Personally, I found the gingko and gotu kola liquid extracts I got from them to be ineffective--yet they are best sellers for Vitacost somehow. As far as I know, many other brands of liquid herbal extracts are likely to be concentrated herb teas which would then be preserved with glycerin or alcohol. So they would often have been deliberately processed with heat. Heat will extract certain compounds from the herbs while diminishing others. Preserving herbal medicines with alcohol goes back centuries in both Asian and Western countries. It can do a good job of preserving the medicine and also rapidly delivers it to your liver and from there into your system. That having been said, if you can't have alcohol, get a glycerin extract.

Look at the difference between raw ginger, dried ground ginger, ginger ale, pickled ginger, and ginger oil. If your mom sent you to the store to buy ground ginger to make gingerbread and you came home with pickled ginger what would happen? Herbs have different effects depending on how they are processed. Westerners tend to take raw herbs ground up and made into pills when the tradition around that herb might be to brew it into a tea according to certain directions. That can be especially true of Asian herbs.

Edited by Luminosity, 17 November 2011 - 02:46 AM.

[thedevinroy]

You can certainly buy ginkgo leaf tea. It's probably not as potent as the 24/6 extract used in public medical studies, but I would think it would still have some type of effect, perhaps even a different effect, more fast, more warm. I imagine it will be better for the extremities taken on an empty stomach as a great scholar once told me...

[Luminosity]

Just to add one more piece of information,

Source Naturals Gingko 24 extract tablet is extracted with ethanol and water, no heat. Talked to the company today. Haven't tried it.

Edited by Luminosity, 19 November 2011 - 06:33 AM.

[moomoo]

You can certainly buy ginkgo leaf tea. It's probably not as potent as the 24/6 extract used in public medical studies, but I would think it would still have some type of effect, perhaps even a different effect, more fast, more warm. I imagine it will be better for the extremities taken on an empty stomach as a great scholar once told me...

I've been using this QI Inspiration tea for some time and find it so good I have stopped Ginko supplementation except for the occasional standardized 60mg here and there.

[X_Danny_X]

GABA helps increase muscle tone from what I study. I wonder if taking this combo would it help to make my muscles more define. Also will it help me fight ADHD/ADD and sleep? Since GABA neurontransmitter helps the body relax and counteracts hyperactivity.