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PQQ vs. Idebenone

pqq idebenone

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#31 computeTHIS

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 05:50 PM

By the way, according to http://pyrroloquinol.../pqq-rich-food/ ...

Celery has the most PQQ per 100g. It's about 6.3mcg per 100g (about 3.6 oz). In order to get 10mg from celery, you would have to consume about 160 kg (350 pounds) of celery. So for all of you complaining about how expensive it is, realize that the dose you are taking is absolutely massive and unnecessary.

Well, while the dosage is usually higher than the human equivalent, I wouldn't call it massive and unnecessary. The human equivalent dose was 1.44mg, based on this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16424117 - nabbed from wikipedia citations, I still don't see where 1.44mg is coming from). It would still take a lot of celery to get to that dose. This almost seems to be an instance where normal diet is highly unlikely to give you the "mitochondrial nutrients."

You guys could probably split the caps in half to get the same effect and make them last longer.
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#32 Albert Winston

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:34 PM

Is there any danger that supplemented PQQ could deplete glutathione in healthy cells?


Redox Rep. 2010;15(4):146-54.

Role of glutathione in augmenting the anticancer activity of pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ).

Shankar BS, Pandey R, Amin P, Misra HS, Sainis KB.

Source

Radiation Biology and Health Sciences Division, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Mumbai, India.


Abstract

Pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ), a bacterial redox co-factor and antioxidant, is highly reactive with nucleophilic compounds present in biological fluids. PQQ induced apoptosis in human promonocytic leukemia U937 cells and this was accompanied by depletion of the major cellular antioxidant glutathione and increase in intracellular reactive oxygen species (ROS). Treatment with glutathione (GSH) or N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC) did not spare PQQ toxicity but resulted in a 2-5-fold increase in PQQ-induced apoptosis in U937 cells. Cellular GSH levels increased following treatment by NAC alone but were severely depleted by co-treatment with NAC and PQQ. This was accompanied by an increase in intracellular ROS. Alternatively, depletion of glutathione also resulted in increased PQQ cytotoxicity. However, the cells underwent necrosis as evidenced by dual labeling with annexin V and propidium iodide. PQQ-induced cytotoxicity is thus critically regulated by the cellular redox status. An increase in GSH can augment apoptosis and its depletion can switch the mode of cell death to necrosis in the presence of PQQ. Our data suggest that modulation of intracellular GSH can be used as an effective strategy to potentiate cytotoxicity of quinones like PQQ.

PMID: 20663290 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



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#33 thedevinroy

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:49 PM

By the way, according to http://pyrroloquinol.../pqq-rich-food/ ...

Celery has the most PQQ per 100g. It's about 6.3mcg per 100g (about 3.6 oz). In order to get 10mg from celery, you would have to consume about 160 kg (350 pounds) of celery. So for all of you complaining about how expensive it is, realize that the dose you are taking is absolutely massive and unnecessary.

Well, while the dosage is usually higher than the human equivalent, I wouldn't call it massive and unnecessary. The human equivalent dose was 1.44mg, based on this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16424117 - nabbed from wikipedia citations, I still don't see where 1.44mg is coming from). It would still take a lot of celery to get to that dose. This almost seems to be an instance where normal diet is highly unlikely to give you the "mitochondrial nutrients."

You guys could probably split the caps in half to get the same effect and make them last longer.


The study mentioned rats being force-fed (gavaged) 0.4mcg/g and 4mcg/g of PQQ per Body Weight. Human dose equivalent using allometric scaling (exponent of 0.75, human weight of 70kg, mouse weight of 0.02kg) would yield 3.64mg for the 0.4mcg/g equivalent and 36.4mg for the 4mcg/g equivalent.

Too bad they didn't do testing on smaller doses...
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#34 thedevinroy

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 08:10 PM

By the way, according to http://pyrroloquinol.../pqq-rich-food/ ...

Celery has the most PQQ per 100g. It's about 6.3mcg per 100g (about 3.6 oz). In order to get 10mg from celery, you would have to consume about 160 kg (350 pounds) of celery. So for all of you complaining about how expensive it is, realize that the dose you are taking is absolutely massive and unnecessary.

Well, while the dosage is usually higher than the human equivalent, I wouldn't call it massive and unnecessary. The human equivalent dose was 1.44mg, based on this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16424117 - nabbed from wikipedia citations, I still don't see where 1.44mg is coming from). It would still take a lot of celery to get to that dose. This almost seems to be an instance where normal diet is highly unlikely to give you the "mitochondrial nutrients."

You guys could probably split the caps in half to get the same effect and make them last longer.


The study mentioned rats being force-fed (gavaged) 0.4mcg/g and 4mcg/g of PQQ per Body Weight. Human dose equivalent using allometric scaling (exponent of 0.75, human weight of 70kg, mouse weight of 0.02kg) would yield 3.64mg for the 0.4mcg/g equivalent and 36.4mg for the 4mcg/g equivalent.

Too bad they didn't do testing on smaller doses...


I also forgot to mention that the study revealed PQQ has lasting effects on mitochondria, lasting past 4 weeks in mice (but not 8 weeks). Don't know how this translates to humans... but this just means that you don't have to anti-up everyday forever to get the benefits of PQQ supplementation.
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#35 Propoxy

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 02:27 AM

it should be safe to take 20mg a day of pqq?

#36 thedevinroy

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 01:12 PM

it should be safe to take 20mg a day of pqq?


There's no upper limit as far as I'm aware.

#37 X_Danny_X

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 05:13 PM

so there is no need to worry about overdosing since we are taking a massive amount then?

I am assuming that 1 pill a day is good enough then and that the body gradually uses it bit by bit?

#38 thedevinroy

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 05:42 PM

so there is no need to worry about overdosing since we are taking a massive amount then?

I am assuming that 1 pill a day is good enough then and that the body gradually uses it bit by bit?

Looks like you could even use half a pill, but yeah, 10mg won't hurt ya. Lethal dose is something like 35 grams... similar to other vitamins. The half life of PQQ is 3-5 hours (http://www.fasebj.or...bstracts/540.21), but since it spawns new mitochondria, it's effects are long-lasting.

#39 X_Danny_X

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:27 PM

capsules are solid correct? you can just cut it in half with a knife and that is it. gelcaps are the ones that you can twist open and contains powder inside?

Edited by X_Danny_X, 06 December 2011 - 06:28 PM.


#40 thedevinroy

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:52 PM

capsules are solid correct? you can just cut it in half with a knife and that is it. gelcaps are the ones that you can twist open and contains powder inside?


You are thinking of tablets. Capsules are typically made from gelatin (or pinesap). Taking a half of capsule would require you to have another capsule to put it in or to stomach the raw powder.

#41 X_Danny_X

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:32 PM

i see, this is going to be harder than i thought.

#42 computeTHIS

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 04:34 AM

Following up with my experience, I have to say that PQQ is totally worth it, even if you don't always notice its effects. Energy, cognition, and general well-being have been in a state of sustained improvement since I've been using it. The effects usually only become obvious the day after supplementation.

I may try Idebenone again soon for a comparison. Supposedly, PQQ has synergistic effects with CoQ10 supplementation. Idebenone is supposedly the "synthetic analogue" of CoQ10, so it may be true that PQQ has synergistic effects with Idebenone. I wish more literature on Idebenone was readily available, its free-radical activity is still a bit worrying (from the threads I've read on it here), particularly about the idea that it may accelerate mitochondrial aging. I think Idebenone is even cheaper than CoQ10, but I may be wrong.

#43 JChief

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:48 AM

Following up with my experience, I have to say that PQQ is totally worth it, even if you don't always notice its effects. Energy, cognition, and general well-being have been in a state of sustained improvement since I've been using it. The effects usually only become obvious the day after supplementation.

I may try Idebenone again soon for a comparison. Supposedly, PQQ has synergistic effects with CoQ10 supplementation. Idebenone is supposedly the "synthetic analogue" of CoQ10, so it may be true that PQQ has synergistic effects with Idebenone. I wish more literature on Idebenone was readily available, its free-radical activity is still a bit worrying (from the threads I've read on it here), particularly about the idea that it may accelerate mitochondrial aging. I think Idebenone is even cheaper than CoQ10, but I may be wrong.


It is the CoQ10 that the concern was over. Idebenone is the synthetic analog with "reduced oxidant generating properties" and why it was an attractive option for me to begin with.

#44 computeTHIS

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 08:17 AM

Following up with my experience, I have to say that PQQ is totally worth it, even if you don't always notice its effects. Energy, cognition, and general well-being have been in a state of sustained improvement since I've been using it. The effects usually only become obvious the day after supplementation.

I may try Idebenone again soon for a comparison. Supposedly, PQQ has synergistic effects with CoQ10 supplementation. Idebenone is supposedly the "synthetic analogue" of CoQ10, so it may be true that PQQ has synergistic effects with Idebenone. I wish more literature on Idebenone was readily available, its free-radical activity is still a bit worrying (from the threads I've read on it here), particularly about the idea that it may accelerate mitochondrial aging. I think Idebenone is even cheaper than CoQ10, but I may be wrong.


It is the CoQ10 that the concern was over. Idebenone is the synthetic analog with "reduced oxidant generating properties" and why it was an attractive option for me to begin with.

Ah, indeed. The reading tells me that Idebenone is generally more protective against oxidation.

Additionally, Mitoquinone (MitoQ) may be of more interest - purportedly a modified version of Idebenone that specifically targets the mitochondria. People even report producing it at home:
http://www.longecity...al-antioxidant/

One concern that was raised is that its protection from lipid peroxidation may inhibit the production of ATP.

#45 lourdaud

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 05:18 PM

Following up with my experience, I have to say that PQQ is totally worth it, even if you don't always notice its effects. Energy, cognition, and general well-being have been in a state of sustained improvement since I've been using it. The effects usually only become obvious the day after supplementation.

I may try Idebenone again soon for a comparison. Supposedly, PQQ has synergistic effects with CoQ10 supplementation. Idebenone is supposedly the "synthetic analogue" of CoQ10, so it may be true that PQQ has synergistic effects with Idebenone. I wish more literature on Idebenone was readily available, its free-radical activity is still a bit worrying (from the threads I've read on it here), particularly about the idea that it may accelerate mitochondrial aging. I think Idebenone is even cheaper than CoQ10, but I may be wrong.


Interesting. It's a shame it's so expensive, but there's got to be a cheaper source than iHerb, no?
Still no bulk powder..?

#46 thedevinroy

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 08:29 PM

I was looking over the compounds in Olive Leaf, and it seems as though hydroxytyrosol might easily replace Co-Q10 as a nootropic supplement. In addition to its antioxidant properties in the mitochondria, it is a competitive inhibitor (substrate) of both COMT and MAO-B. It's a metabolite of Oleuropein. Sounds like quite a potential as an antiparkinson's supplement.

EDIT: More info here: http://www.zhion.com...oxytyrosol.html

I find a nice buzz from Extra Virgin Olive Oil. Perhaps its the oleuropein and hydroxytyrosol... or the oil... or the fact my gag reflex seems to cause a form of alertness and awakeness...

Edited by devinthayer, 07 December 2011 - 08:43 PM.


#47 tintinet

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 12:19 AM

I never notice anything taking supplements, include PPQ daily. I'm jealous of people who feel an effect.


1++++! I read about all these reactions to supplements people report, but I also, even though I've taken a kazillion different supplements, I've rarely noticed any effect.

#48 Hebbeh

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 12:54 AM

I never notice anything taking supplements, include PPQ daily. I'm jealous of people who feel an effect.


1++++! I read about all these reactions to supplements people report, but I also, even though I've taken a kazillion different supplements, I've rarely noticed any effect.


Like drugs, most herbal supplements display their targeted effect at the genetic level through some degree of acting as either gene or receptor agonist or antagonist. This effect is intended to treat some underlying adverse condition or disease. If you don’t have either a beneficial or negative (side) effect...then perhaps you are perfectly healthy and have no condition to treat? Or at least not a condition that herb is capable of treating. A doctor doesn't prescribe a drug to a healthy patient as there will be no beneficial effect to be gained. If it's not broke...you can't fix it. And just like drugs…a single drug doesn’t have 100% success with every patient due to genetic differences.

#49 thedevinroy

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 06:31 AM

I never notice anything taking supplements, include PPQ daily. I'm jealous of people who feel an effect.


1++++! I read about all these reactions to supplements people report, but I also, even though I've taken a kazillion different supplements, I've rarely noticed any effect.


Like drugs, most herbal supplements display their targeted effect at the genetic level through some degree of acting as either gene or receptor agonist or antagonist. This effect is intended to treat some underlying adverse condition or disease. If you don’t have either a beneficial or negative (side) effect...then perhaps you are perfectly healthy and have no condition to treat? Or at least not a condition that herb is capable of treating. A doctor doesn't prescribe a drug to a healthy patient as there will be no beneficial effect to be gained. If it's not broke...you can't fix it. And just like drugs…a single drug doesn’t have 100% success with every patient due to genetic differences.


Metabolism is another factor. Those with healthier livers tend to metabolize things quicker. In addition, I noticed at least when I went for a second round of Strattera (atomoxetine), my system did not adapt to 40mg as strong as it did 20mg before. It's possible that certain organs in the body can gain immunity to drugs, just like viruses in some ways, and up-regulate certain enzymes on a semi-permanent to permanent basis by being exposed to it for a prolonged time. Similarly, if a drug or an herb compound is metabolized by the same enzyme, this may affect the tolerance to those other drugs. This is called cross-tolerance.

Some drugs induce enzymes not related to its metabolism. Modafinil is one. For instance, if I was taking Modafinil for an extended period of time, it is possible that it could affect my absorption for Tianeptine, Piperine, Caffeine, Bupropion, etc. even after the period of use. This is a case where cross-tolerance would really be a transferred tolerance.

Some do grow tolerant to Modafinil, so the body does eventually figure out a way to adjust. When it takes long, sometimes the method is not enzyme regulation, but through receptor desensitization. If the stem cells catch wind, it could literally change the way the entire organ reacts.

Such occurrences of youthful, natural tolerances are generally rare. I tend to see them in those fed healthy diets as children. Thus, I think this natural tolerance has mostly to do with the liver, specifically the cytochrome P450 enzymes. The polyphenols of today's medicine makes metabolism a walk in the park compared to the polyphenols of vegetables and herbal treatments. In addition, a clean liver probably can develop faster. Health conscious parents may choose to live in a home with a well over city water, choose natural vaccination and natural remedies over doctors, and generally feed the child "bitter" tonics to help the liver, even things as simple as brocolli.

Thus, when you take supplements, rather than taking double doses or triple doses, try taking it with a digestive aid. Research the enzymes. For instance, piperine helps with CYP3A4 metabolism. Also, make sure you re-sensitize your receptors at night to avoid their down regulation and protect your nervous system from over-exposure to any one chemical. An herbal remedy for stimulants is chamomile tea and gotu kola (dried powder) taken together (the glutamatergic properties of chamomile are somewhat counteracted by the GABAergic and NMDA antagonism of Gotu Kola).

In conclusion: It also could be metabolism.
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#50 Hebbeh

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 02:48 PM

Metabolism is another factor. Those with healthier livers tend to metabolize things quicker. In addition, I noticed at least when I went for a second round of Strattera (atomoxetine), my system did not adapt to 40mg as strong as it did 20mg before. It's possible that certain organs in the body can gain immunity to drugs, just like viruses in some ways, and up-regulate certain enzymes on a semi-permanent to permanent basis by being exposed to it for a prolonged time. Similarly, if a drug or an herb compound is metabolized by the same enzyme, this may affect the tolerance to those other drugs. This is called cross-tolerance.

Some drugs induce enzymes not related to its metabolism. Modafinil is one. For instance, if I was taking Modafinil for an extended period of time, it is possible that it could affect my absorption for Tianeptine, Piperine, Caffeine, Bupropion, etc. even after the period of use. This is a case where cross-tolerance would really be a transferred tolerance.

Some do grow tolerant to Modafinil, so the body does eventually figure out a way to adjust. When it takes long, sometimes the method is not enzyme regulation, but through receptor desensitization. If the stem cells catch wind, it could literally change the way the entire organ reacts.

Such occurrences of youthful, natural tolerances are generally rare. I tend to see them in those fed healthy diets as children. Thus, I think this natural tolerance has mostly to do with the liver, specifically the cytochrome P450 enzymes. The polyphenols of today's medicine makes metabolism a walk in the park compared to the polyphenols of vegetables and herbal treatments. In addition, a clean liver probably can develop faster. Health conscious parents may choose to live in a home with a well over city water, choose natural vaccination and natural remedies over doctors, and generally feed the child "bitter" tonics to help the liver, even things as simple as brocolli.

Thus, when you take supplements, rather than taking double doses or triple doses, try taking it with a digestive aid. Research the enzymes. For instance, piperine helps with CYP3A4 metabolism. Also, make sure you re-sensitize your receptors at night to avoid their down regulation and protect your nervous system from over-exposure to any one chemical. An herbal remedy for stimulants is chamomile tea and gotu kola (dried powder) taken together (the glutamatergic properties of chamomile are somewhat counteracted by the GABAergic and NMDA antagonism of Gotu Kola).

In conclusion: It also could be metabolism.


Excellent post! Good points and very good advice! :)

#51 manic_racetam

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 05:24 AM

Best thread ever <3

#52 nito

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 06:11 AM

did anyone notice a boost in cognition somehow or energy only? seems like bodybuilders don't mind it.

#53 computeTHIS

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 07:53 PM

did anyone notice a boost in cognition somehow or energy only? seems like bodybuilders don't mind it.

What do you mean they "don't mind it"? I would say both cognition and energy, energy being the most obvious effect. Not like a caffeine energy boost, but like mental stimulation to be creative, productive, or fun-loving.

#54 nito

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 06:25 AM

did anyone notice a boost in cognition somehow or energy only? seems like bodybuilders don't mind it.

What do you mean they "don't mind it"? I would say both cognition and energy, energy being the most obvious effect. Not like a caffeine energy boost, but like mental stimulation to be creative, productive, or fun-loving.


Meant that it's a nice add to their workout. Something bout recovering from training. Btw which one did you buy. I've found a few but they all seem so pricey. Pm me a link if you don't mind.

#55 computeTHIS

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:12 AM

I can't remember who I bought it from, actually. But it was indeed pricey. It's the "Life Extension BioPQQ" caps. I remember doing a Google-shopping search and going with the cheapest one. Surprisingly, Ebay is another good source for supplements.

#56 nupi

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:49 AM

It seems like something is doing something in my head for the past 2 or 3 days. Looking at what I changed, I believe it is either Idebenone or my decision to cut out Caffeine (I still drink decaf and eat some chocolate, so there is some baseline there, still).

However, I am a little worried about Idebenone being a mitochondrial prooxidant (see, e.g., http://www.longecity...idative-stress/). Does anybody have any view on this? Would PQQ be better on that dimension?

Antioxidant and pro-oxidant properties of pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ): implications for its function in biological systems.

He K, Nukada H, Urakami T, Murphy MP.

Source

Department of Medical and Surgical Sciences, Dunedin School of Medicine, University of Otago, P.O. Box 56, Dunedin, New Zealand.

Abstract

Pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) is a novel redox cofactor recently found in human milk. It has been reported to function as an essential nutrient, antioxidant and redox modulator in cell culture experiments and in animal models of human diseases. As mitochondria are particularly susceptible to oxidative damage we studied the antioxidant properties of PQQ in isolated rat liver mitochondria. PQQ was an effective antioxidant protecting mitochondria against oxidative stress-induced lipid peroxidation, protein carbonyl formation and inactivation of the mitochondrial respiratory chain. In contrast, PQQ caused extensive cell death to cells in culture. This surprising effect was inhibited by catalase, and was shown to be due to the generation of hydrogen peroxide during the autoxidation of PQQ in culture medium. We conclude that the reactivities of PQQ are dependent on its environment and that it can act as an antioxidant or a pro-oxidant in different biological systems. PMID:12473380


Edited by nupi, 03 January 2012 - 09:51 AM.


#57 X_Danny_X

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:58 AM

i am not feeling anything with PQQ. I am taking it in the morning for 1 week now and nothing. I might be wanting to try Idebone but that too is expensive.

nito, seems PQQ can be a pro oxidant for mitochondria depending on the culture society which is strange to me. The article you posted didnt went into details about it.

#58 nidhogg

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:10 PM

Is it possible to feel idebenone or is it something taken proactive. I got some thai pharm IDB-none and i dont feel jack from it at 100mg

Edited by nidhogg, 04 January 2012 - 06:11 PM.


#59 computeTHIS

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:19 PM

What do you mean by proactive? It has energy-related effects, and probably the strongest "feeling" of all mitochondrial supplements. Its effects are linearly dosage dependent. Honestly, I'm surprised you didn't feel anything from 100mg. My 180mg dose was overwhelming the first time I tried it. My product was made by Primaforce. I have to admit, Thai Pharm sounds a bit shady.

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#60 computeTHIS

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:27 PM

It seems like something is doing something in my head for the past 2 or 3 days. Looking at what I changed, I believe it is either Idebenone or my decision to cut out Caffeine (I still drink decaf and eat some chocolate, so there is some baseline there, still).

However, I am a little worried about Idebenone being a mitochondrial prooxidant (see, e.g., http://www.longecity...idative-stress/). Does anybody have any view on this? Would PQQ be better on that dimension?

Antioxidant and pro-oxidant properties of pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ): implications for its function in biological systems.

He K, Nukada H, Urakami T, Murphy MP.

Source

Department of Medical and Surgical Sciences, Dunedin School of Medicine, University of Otago, P.O. Box 56, Dunedin, New Zealand.

Abstract

Pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) is a novel redox cofactor recently found in human milk. It has been reported to function as an essential nutrient, antioxidant and redox modulator in cell culture experiments and in animal models of human diseases. As mitochondria are particularly susceptible to oxidative damage we studied the antioxidant properties of PQQ in isolated rat liver mitochondria. PQQ was an effective antioxidant protecting mitochondria against oxidative stress-induced lipid peroxidation, protein carbonyl formation and inactivation of the mitochondrial respiratory chain. In contrast, PQQ caused extensive cell death to cells in culture. This surprising effect was inhibited by catalase, and was shown to be due to the generation of hydrogen peroxide during the autoxidation of PQQ in culture medium. We conclude that the reactivities of PQQ are dependent on its environment and that it can act as an antioxidant or a pro-oxidant in different biological systems. PMID:12473380

I'm not too worried about this study for now. It's simply making the observation that in vitro studies show oxidation, without giving possible causes.

i am not feeling anything with PQQ. I am taking it in the morning for 1 week now and nothing. I might be wanting to try Idebone but that too is expensive.

I would say it takes something like 12 hours for it to take affect. So in your case, it probably goes active while you are asleep. I would recommend taking it later in the evening so you can reap its benefits while you are awake the next day. The energy effects are very obvious to me, particularly when waking up in the morning.





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