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PQQ vs. Idebenone

pqq idebenone

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#61 manic_racetam

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 08:06 PM

Is it possible to feel idebenone or is it something taken proactive. I got some thai pharm IDB-none and i dont feel jack from it at 100mg


From what I've read around this site and others it looks like some people experience an increase in energy within the first few days of taking idebenone. Some people "feel" nothing at all. Personally, I noticed a marked difference in energy levels but the effects seemed to be temporary. Most of the noticeable effects seemed to disappear by day 5.

I still take 500mg per day (SP bottle of 90 x 500mg) and plan on switching to PQQ when I run out.

#62 X_Danny_X

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:18 PM

It seems like something is doing something in my head for the past 2 or 3 days. Looking at what I changed, I believe it is either Idebenone or my decision to cut out Caffeine (I still drink decaf and eat some chocolate, so there is some baseline there, still).

However, I am a little worried about Idebenone being a mitochondrial prooxidant (see, e.g., http://www.longecity...idative-stress/). Does anybody have any view on this? Would PQQ be better on that dimension?

Antioxidant and pro-oxidant properties of pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ): implications for its function in biological systems.

He K, Nukada H, Urakami T, Murphy MP.

Source

Department of Medical and Surgical Sciences, Dunedin School of Medicine, University of Otago, P.O. Box 56, Dunedin, New Zealand.

Abstract

Pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) is a novel redox cofactor recently found in human milk. It has been reported to function as an essential nutrient, antioxidant and redox modulator in cell culture experiments and in animal models of human diseases. As mitochondria are particularly susceptible to oxidative damage we studied the antioxidant properties of PQQ in isolated rat liver mitochondria. PQQ was an effective antioxidant protecting mitochondria against oxidative stress-induced lipid peroxidation, protein carbonyl formation and inactivation of the mitochondrial respiratory chain. In contrast, PQQ caused extensive cell death to cells in culture. This surprising effect was inhibited by catalase, and was shown to be due to the generation of hydrogen peroxide during the autoxidation of PQQ in culture medium. We conclude that the reactivities of PQQ are dependent on its environment and that it can act as an antioxidant or a pro-oxidant in different biological systems. PMID:12473380

I'm not too worried about this study for now. It's simply making the observation that in vitro studies show oxidation, without giving possible causes.

i am not feeling anything with PQQ. I am taking it in the morning for 1 week now and nothing. I might be wanting to try Idebone but that too is expensive.

I would say it takes something like 12 hours for it to take affect. So in your case, it probably goes active while you are asleep. I would recommend taking it later in the evening so you can reap its benefits while you are awake the next day. The energy effects are very obvious to me, particularly when waking up in the morning.




Is it brain energy such as very improve concentration and cognitive/memory or are you talkinga bout just feeling energized with your whole body? I take Melatonin at night and I feel like Im Superman when I wake up. I guess I will try taking it PQQ at night instead of Melatonin and see what happens for few days.

Edited by X_Danny_X, 04 January 2012 - 10:19 PM.


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#63 Adan

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 01:16 AM

Following up with my experience, I have to say that PQQ is totally worth it, even if you don't always notice its effects. Energy, cognition, and general well-being have been in a state of sustained improvement since I've been using it. The effects usually only become obvious the day after supplementation.

I may try Idebenone again soon for a comparison. Supposedly, PQQ has synergistic effects with CoQ10 supplementation. Idebenone is supposedly the "synthetic analogue" of CoQ10, so it may be true that PQQ has synergistic effects with Idebenone. I wish more literature on Idebenone was readily available, its free-radical activity is still a bit worrying (from the threads I've read on it here), particularly about the idea that it may accelerate mitochondrial aging. I think Idebenone is even cheaper than CoQ10, but I may be wrong.


It is the CoQ10 that the concern was over. Idebenone is the synthetic analog with "reduced oxidant generating properties" and why it was an attractive option for me to begin with.


CoQ10 aids mitochondria by acting against free radicals. So how would using it accelerate mitochondrial decay? It seems contradictory...or maybe I haven't understood well. What may be wrong with CoQ10?

#64 nupi

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 08:32 AM

It is the CoQ10 that the concern was over. Idebenone is the synthetic analog with "reduced oxidant generating properties" and why it was an attractive option for me to begin with.


I am not so sure about that after reading http://www.longecity...idative-stress/

#65 nupi

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 09:36 AM

Is it brain energy such as very improve concentration and cognitive/memory or are you talkinga bout just feeling energized with your whole body? I take Melatonin at night and I feel like Im Superman when I wake up. I guess I will try taking it PQQ at night instead of Melatonin and see what happens for few days.


I would say more awake (but I also sleep at least 8 hours daily). I also went swimming the first time in a long time and while my back was hurting (not entirely sure why), 1km was otherwise little strain, did not really feel tired after doing it, usually, I start to feel tired at around the 1km mark, especially when not in any swimming regime...

#66 JChief

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:39 AM

It is the CoQ10 that the concern was over. Idebenone is the synthetic analog with "reduced oxidant generating properties" and why it was an attractive option for me to begin with.


I am not so sure about that after reading http://www.longecity...idative-stress/


Interesting thanks for pointing that out. Although I am still interested in idebenone. If I ever do take it I'll be sure to increase my RALA intake for what it's worth.

#67 X_Danny_X

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:44 PM

Is it brain energy such as very improve concentration and cognitive/memory or are you talkinga bout just feeling energized with your whole body? I take Melatonin at night and I feel like Im Superman when I wake up. I guess I will try taking it PQQ at night instead of Melatonin and see what happens for few days.


I would say more awake (but I also sleep at least 8 hours daily). I also went swimming the first time in a long time and while my back was hurting (not entirely sure why), 1km was otherwise little strain, did not really feel tired after doing it, usually, I start to feel tired at around the 1km mark, especially when not in any swimming regime...


So you get less tired and stuff. Im guessing fat loss can be accomplished as with PQQ if it gives more energy.

#68 nupi

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 09:01 PM

Presumably although I naturally at BMI 20 anyhow... I am more interested in gaining muscle now, let's see how that works out...

#69 Ampa-omega

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 09:17 PM

How much better is MitoQ to idebenone?

I was wondering about skQ1
because people on this forum mentioned they were able to synthesize mitoQ
now look at how similiar the molecules are in this image, exact, except skQ1 has a removed CH3 group and a modification to mitoQ's H3CO groups
:
Posted Image
http://www.springeri...32-008-9108-6-0
if you are able to get MitoQ, would it not be possible to synthesize it into skQ1?

#70 X_Danny_X

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:39 PM

Presumably although I naturally at BMI 20 anyhow... I am more interested in gaining muscle now, let's see how that works out...



well i want cognitive abilities more so, not gaining muscle at this time. i have melatonin, it releases growth hormones and a powerful antioxidant.

#71 JChief

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:46 AM

I have decided to give PQQ a try as well. I chose the LEF brand which ran about $18. 10mg per dose is what I plan. I will be sure to report any changes I notice, if any. Overall I think it will be good to take for longevity reasons.

#72 Erstwhile

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 03:46 AM

I've been taking the LEF brand PQQ for around three weeks or so now and I'm not sure if I have experienced the positive subjective effects reported in this thread. Then again, I am taking a fairly large stack and I have been under quite a bit of pressure these few weeks so that could be why I haven't really noticed anything from the PQQ. But I will continue taking the PQQ for at least a few more months in case the effects take time to build up and also because it seems to be a good longevity supplement take anyway..

Edited by Erstwhile, 20 January 2012 - 03:46 AM.


#73 ScienceGuy

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 11:17 AM

In order to get 10mg from celery, you would have to consume about 160 kg (350 pounds) of celery...


I'll try adding that to my breakfast bowl of Cornflakes... :laugh:

#74 computeTHIS

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:29 PM

I'm no longer a proponent of Idebenone. After using it and reading of its possible oxidation effects (due to it being a less efficient electron carrier than CoQ10, or so it has been suggested), I'm siding with the skeptics on this one. I developed a tolerance for it within a week, which seems to tell me that my body was compensating for what were probably damaging effects which I couldn't otherwise detect.

Now, this reaction to Idebenone may still be useful - insighting an immunological or antioxidant response within the body, but I do not yet see the scientific studies to demonstrate this efficacy, or why it would be beneficial for me to follow the linear dosing all the way up to its supposedly "safe" 2500mg dosing.

As for PQQ, I'm realizing that its effects were much stronger while I was on Selegiline - probably compensating for the semi-depressive "downer" feeling when Selegiline's metabolites left my system. I still prefer PQQ over Idebenone, but since being off of Selegiline it's hard to feel the effects of PQQ. I might especially recommend PQQ and similar supplements for people who've taken medicines that were hard on their body, such as Adderall (in my case) or the L-methamphetamines in Selegiline, for example.
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#75 ScienceGuy

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 09:32 AM

Anyone else get a HEADACHE after taking PQQ?

#76 biggyrat

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:48 PM

Hi,

I wondered whether anyone has any thoughts as to whether PQQ would work as a sublingual. If it were, seems that a smaller dosage might be effective, therefore less expensive. Also, I'm wondering whether it might be possible to find a powdered version. Haven't seen anything on the web, bu maybe someone else has?

Thanks.

#77 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:22 PM

Honestly, I'm surprised you didn't feel anything from 100mg. My 180mg dose was overwhelming the first time I tried it.


..but since being off of Selegiline it's hard to feel the effects of PQQ.



This is stupid...

#78 Elusive

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:56 PM

Has anyone tried PQQ with Fish Oil and CDP Choline?

#79 pedr0vsky

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 05:05 PM

http://examine.com/s...noline quinone/

Very good review of PQQ...

#80 axonopathy

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 05:14 AM

Scope out the structure of PQQ. It has three carboxylic acid moieties - all of which will be expected to be deprotonated at physiological pH. Moreover, the pyridine nitrogen is quite basic and will be protonated.

The structural and electronic features of this molecule will prohibit it from crossing the BBB - it is simply not lipophilic enough.

Upon ingestion, PQQ will never enter the CNS, though you may have exceedingly expensive urine.

If anyone wants to discuss a plan to esterify the three acid functionalities to develop a more lipophilic BBB-penetrable prodrug, hit me up.
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#81 Ark

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 12:03 PM

How about PQQ /Idebone / Trans-Resvoltral in one pill, whats this MMA match up of supps i think they are both winners!!!!

#82 genesis187

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:40 AM

When I was taking PQQ I experienced a wide awake feeling. It was like being devoid of tiredness, but it was not stimulating, if that makes any sense. I initially took 10mg, then 5gm and then finally 2.5mg. It was strong, and it kept me awake.

This is what I have: http://www.amazon.co...-1&keywords=pqq

Edited by genesis187, 29 November 2013 - 11:41 AM.


#83 rc897

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 04:21 PM

I like the AOR brand, the PQQ itself is bloody expensive in bulk- kg quantities something like $10k/ KG.

Tried the crazy ebay Thailand PQQ, but upon taking apart the caps and seeing interesting things there- as well as hitting up the seller for COA, which he couldn't provide as he is a reseller I binned the rest. If it is too cheap don't even bother.

For the MB vs CoQ10 I always thought the thinking (pun intended) was that MB is like or used as a substitute for LLLT. I just alternate and take MB if I dont have time for LLLT. find MB makes me laugh/smile more about an hour post ingestion maybe due to is dopamine pathway effects. (sorry for off topic)

Edited by rc897, 29 November 2013 - 04:29 PM.


#84 Barfly

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 08:05 PM

I like the AOR brand, the PQQ itself is bloody expensive in bulk- kg quantities something like $10k/ KG.

Tried the crazy ebay Thailand PQQ, but upon taking apart the caps and seeing interesting things there- as well as hitting up the seller for COA, which he couldn't provide as he is a reseller I binned the rest. If it is too cheap don't even bother.

For the MB vs CoQ10 I always thought the thinking (pun intended) was that MB is like or used as a substitute for LLLT. I just alternate and take MB if I dont have time for LLLT. find MB makes me laugh/smile more about an hour post ingestion maybe due to is dopamine pathway effects. (sorry for off topic)


Would you be so kind to elaborate a bit about your negative opinion on Thailand PQQ?

I am using that brand in my TULIP stack as it is the only PQQ I can afford and I was under the impression than Lostfalco and some other members in the tulip thread find its effects are comparable to Life Extension brand.

So, any concrete reasons you find that ebay PQQ scam besides its low price? Thanks

Edited by Barfly, 29 November 2013 - 08:05 PM.


#85 axonopathy

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 09:09 PM

hey guys, sorry to beat a dead horse, but what are we hoping to accomplish by ingesting PQQ if it is unable to get into the brain?

#86 rc897

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:49 AM

its simple economics:
1. he is a reseller- so he has to buy for less than he sells.
2. no COA
3. foreign manufacturer- sketchy label.
4. sells on ebay
5. Its $10k a kg to buy- so when you break that down- 20mg has to be at least 20 cents each, but there is 20mg x 100 for $15 so.....that math doesn't add up there.
6. I took apart some caps, and found some issues with what I found- what ever it was doesn't look like just rice flour.
7. also said to contain coQ10, another expense.

Taken together- hey I want it to be a good deal too, but its only my opinion, and baring a lab test from a north American lab all I can go on is the economic math. For the extra 15-20 bucks a month, It gives comfort to buy something here. I like lostFal too- but sans lab test.... take apart some caps for yourself- what can I say sorry to burst your bubble. If I can do a lab test for a hundred bucks or less I will and post it here- more than that the economics fall apart and would rather just buy from AOR.

Like my other post if anyone knows a good lab- I called around my home nothing here and googled some, but cannot find.

Edited by rc897, 30 November 2013 - 04:54 AM.


#87 rc897

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 05:11 AM

Scope out the structure of PQQ. It has three carboxylic acid moieties - all of which will be expected to be deprotonated at physiological pH. Moreover, the pyridine nitrogen is quite basic and will be protonated.

The structural and electronic features of this molecule will prohibit it from crossing the BBB - it is simply not lipophilic enough.

Upon ingestion, PQQ will never enter the CNS, though you may have exceedingly expensive urine.

If anyone wants to discuss a plan to esterify the three acid functionalities to develop a more lipophilic BBB-penetrable prodrug, hit me up.



looks like it has been done- http://www.patents.com/us-5616576.html

#88 pedr0vsky

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 05:42 PM

Scope out the structure of PQQ. It has three carboxylic acid moieties - all of which will be expected to be deprotonated at physiological pH. Moreover, the pyridine nitrogen is quite basic and will be protonated.

The structural and electronic features of this molecule will prohibit it from crossing the BBB - it is simply not lipophilic enough.

Upon ingestion, PQQ will never enter the CNS, though you may have exceedingly expensive urine.

If anyone wants to discuss a plan to esterify the three acid functionalities to develop a more lipophilic BBB-penetrable prodrug, hit me up.


PQQ does not pass the blood brain barrier, that's true. But, BioPQQ® does: http://www.nutraingr...-Brain-Function

Edited by pedr0vsky, 13 December 2013 - 05:47 PM.


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#89 pone11

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 09:22 AM

Scope out the structure of PQQ. It has three carboxylic acid moieties - all of which will be expected to be deprotonated at physiological pH. Moreover, the pyridine nitrogen is quite basic and will be protonated.

The structural and electronic features of this molecule will prohibit it from crossing the BBB - it is simply not lipophilic enough.

Upon ingestion, PQQ will never enter the CNS, though you may have exceedingly expensive urine.

If anyone wants to discuss a plan to esterify the three acid functionalities to develop a more lipophilic BBB-penetrable prodrug, hit me up.

 

This is interesting.  Has any vendor created a liposomal PQQ?



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