18 replies to this topic

[gizmobrain]

I'd like to open up a discussion about the safety, mechanism, and alternatives of 1,3-dimethylamylamine.

After reading through these older threads, there seems to be a lot of misconceptions, and I'd like to get a thread going that definitively answers some questions instead of having conflicting information.

Previous threads:
http://www.longecity...as-a-nootropic/
http://www.longecity...new-nootropics/
http://www.longecity...ethylamylamine/
http://www.longecity...ranium-extract/

First of all, let's try to clear up what compound we are actually talking about.

What is it?

For the sake of sanity, I can only verify that I have taken a chemical compound made/packaged by Primaforce, listed as containing 20mg of 1,3-dimethylamylamine, and have found it to cause my sinuses to be clear. I've also found that it provides energy, motivation, and a clear head without overly stimulating my PNS. It has a relatively short period of action, lasting about 2 hours and then tapering down its effects over the next two hours (4 hours total).

What is it called?

Wikipedia lists it as Methylhexanamine, though it is known by other names:

• 4-methyl-2-hexanamine
• 4-methyl-2-hexylamine
• 2-amino-4-methylhexane
• 1,3-dimethylamylamine
• 1,3-dimethylpentylamine
• 2-Hexanamine, 4-methyl-(9CI)
• Forthan
• Forthane
• Floradrene
• methylhexanenamine
• Geranamine
• Geranium Extract
• DMAA (not to be confused with DMAE)

Now, my questions to you are the following:

• Is 1,3-dimethylamylamine actually present in Geranium oil/stems/roots/leaves/whatever? If so, is there any benefits to the full herb based supplement over this synthesized version?
• Would anyone care to theorize why my head feels clearer and my heart rate is lower on 1,3-dimethylamylamine than on ephedrine or Adderall (and far more effective than caffeine which has nearly no mental effect on me), which are listed as being more effective CNS stimulants?
• As far as supplement stacks go, would combining 1,3-dimethylamylamine with curcumin and/or rhodiola rosea be a more effective means of increasing the lengths of the effects? I am basing this question off of the assumption that 1,3-dimethylamylamine increases norepinephrine (NE) in the brain, and that curcumin and rhodiola rosea have MAOI-A activity. If you'd like to theorize about other possible synergies, that would be most appreciated (choline, -racetams, and omega 3 need not be discussed ).
• Is there any indication or studies that normal doses (~20mg every 4 hours) would be more harmful than the equivalent amount of caffeine or ephedrine? How about compared to low doses of Adderall (20mg, time-released)?
• Would there be any recommendation besides nightly supplementation of Magnesium and antioxidants in order to avoid cumulative damage and tolerance?
• If 1,3-dimethylamylamine helps to overcome my ADD/ADHD-PI/SCT/"lack of motivation"/"whatever you want to call it" in a way that is similar to Adderall (with less side effects) would there be a non-stimulant route to fix whatever is broken, instead of covering up the problem by using stimulants? It should also be known that d-amphetamine does nothing to fix my lack of motivation, yet Adderall does.

I would love to see some applicable scientific studies, if they exist. Any full text pubmed articles out there to share? I debated copying and pasting the Wikipedia article, but decided against it. If someone else would like to, feel free.

I find it interesting that a lot of people say that it does not work for them, given that I usually don't have much of a response to that many supplements, yet I clearly do to 1,3-dimethylamylamine.

Edited by zrbarnes, 21 March 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[malden]

Nice work !

Ive taken it in the past, )stan allone and in sporting supplement combinations.

After six ourhs i get a grogie drug like feeling of ahedemia dry mouth ect, ritalin stratera DMAA in my opinion its al the same treating evil by evil.
if ist nesacary... you can use it if this one is working for you. but not use the dsm iv, see is as al last treatment option

)i have ADD btw. have use multiple stims but at the long term they have just made it worst. know im doing it stim free only small ammounts of coffee.

greets

[gizmobrain]

I'm trying to find an option that avoids stimulants, but as far as stimulants go, 1,3-dimethylamylamine has so far been the gentlest and most targeted towards fixing my symptoms without causing side effects (at the 20mg dose). Dry mouth is about the only one, but it wasn't as bad as Adderall or ephedrine.

The key seems to lie in the norepinephrine system for me. My dopamine system seems to be mostly intact, though maybe a bit too quick on the reuptake. Since most ADD supplements target dopamine, I feel like I get a lot of undesirable effects because of dopamine overload. I have tried Strattera (an NE reuptake inhibitor), but it didn't seem to work at all. Not sure if it was a metabolizing issue, or that maybe my brain just doesn't release enough NE for it to work.

First and foremost, I see the use of stimulants as a short term solution to do what I need to do to keep my job and provide for my family. I do feel like they have given me some slight knowledge about what is broken, since the stimulants that favor central NE release seem to work the best.

This leads to my second goal... using that knowledge to fix the underlying problem without relying on stimulants. I have started to look into herbs that increase norepinephrine, but most also increase serotonin. I feel like my serotonin system is fully intact, and I don't want to harm it. This is why I'm wondering if using a small amount of 1,3-dimethylamylamine in combination with herbal MAOI-A inhibitors might be my healthiest solution until I figure it out.

I'm currently investigating Forskolin, Berberine, Sulbutiamine, Uridine, Curcumin, Methylene Blue and Rhodiola Rosea.

I don't have enough cash to order them all, so right now, I've been trying a stack of Forskolin, CoQ10, BioPQQ, Rosemary, Piracetam, Omega-3, and Selegiline (5mg). I supplement with Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Methylcobalamin, Methylfolate, and P5P every couple days to make sure I've got enough.

For the most part, I've been feeling pretty good. Energy levels are up since I've started taking my current stack, but motivation is still lacking. I have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning, and it takes about an hour after waking for the brain fog to go away. Some days (err... a lot of days) I don't really get anything done. I just shuffle around the house until its time to go to work (I work the evening shift). I look at the clock and wonder where the day has gone, because "I was just getting ready to do that really important thing I needed to do..."

Edited by zrbarnes, 21 March 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[Baten]

Looking at your super well written and structured post, you wouldn't say you lack motivation or have ad(h)d, haha.

I see DMAA as caffeine version 2.0, for me it gives clean surges of energy and occasionally completely dampens my hunger.
I remember running 10 km with my friend and I could still nearly sprint the last km out of sheer insane amounts of energy.
I didn't notice any increase in motivation at all. I had an increase of motivation the first days of taking aniracetam, and more noticeably while taking pramiracetam.
Do note that its picked up in doping tests for sports.

I'm against long term use of AD(H)D medication since it kind of f¨cks up your human "reward" dopamine system,
but I'm pretty sure that both DMAA and caffeine are pretty bad for your heart to take long-term and occasionally.

Still, if you're looking for a reliable solution targeted at your specific problems, I wouldn't know what would be the safest and most effective.
I guess talking about this with a expert practitioner could help you find what you're looking for.

Edit: personally I loved the effects of geranamine, but after a week of supplementation my body was already pretty used to the substance,
the energy and appetite suppressant affects were a whole lot less spectacular after a week.
Also, and more importantly, the reason I no longer take any is that at times the rate my heart beat noticeably increased.
That could have been me being sensitive to the stuff, though, but I'm pretty wary once I notice such an effect.
I took 20mg the first couple of doses, but I mostly took 40mg for the energy effects which I targeted.

Edited by Baten, 21 March 2012 - 08:59 PM.

[gizmobrain]

Looking at your super well written and structured post, you wouldn't say you lack motivation or have ad(h)d, haha.

I see DMAA as caffeine version 2.0, for me it gives clean surges of energy and occasionally completely dampens my hunger.
I remember running 10 km with my friend and I could still nearly sprint the last km out of sheer insane amounts of energy.
I didn't notice any increase in motivation at all. I had an increase of motivation the first days of taking aniracetam, and more noticeably while taking pramiracetam.
Do note that its picked up in doping tests for sports.

I'm against long term use of AD(H)D medication since it kind of f¨cks up your human "reward" dopamine system,
but I'm pretty sure that both DMAA and caffeine are pretty bad for your heart to take long-term and occasionally.

Still, if you're looking for a reliable solution targeted at your specific problems, I wouldn't know what would be the safest and most effective.
I guess talking about this with a expert practitioner could help you find what you're looking for.

Edit: personally I loved the effects of geranamine, but after a week of supplementation my body was already pretty used to the substance,
the energy and appetite suppressant affects were a whole lot less spectacular after a week.
Also, and more importantly, the reason I no longer take any is that at times the rate my heart beat noticeably increased.
That could have been me being sensitive to the stuff, though, but I'm pretty wary once I notice such an effect.
I took 20mg the first couple of doses, but I mostly took 40mg for the energy effects which I targeted.

Yeah, that's one of the hard to explain to folks around me. Certain tasks come very easily to me (usually involving something new and interesting to me), while most every day tasks are like a giant boulder that I have to struggle and strain against to get it started rolling. Most doctors say it's depression or ADHD, and neither fit that well. Its a type of depression, I suppose. Except I'm not sad, or anxious, or the symptoms that most people equate to depression. And I have absolutely no signs of Hyperactivity, so most people get confused if I say that I have ADHD-Inattentive.

If I take no supplements whatsoever, I have this constant sedated feeling. I don't get frustrated, angry, or anxious. I don't have a sense of urgency, even for important things. Just kind of a dreamy fuzziness to my days. My daydreams tend to grab my focus more than the world around me. At night, I lay down my head and struggle to remember what I did that day, which is usually not that much of anything.

Adderall (and ephedrine) definitely had a much stronger effect on my blood pressure and heart rate then the 20mg dose of 1,3-dimethylamylamine. I wonder if any damage to the heart can be negated by using something like Jiaogulan or Rosemary, which reduces heart rate and blood pressure? I know most body building supplements combine it with something like this. Jack3d uses Schizandrol A.

As with ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, and Adderall, the 1,3-dimethylamylamine does kill my appetite, but I am used to eating when I need to eat, instead of when I am hungry.

Edited by zrbarnes, 21 March 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[jhelms]

I have always been a fan of taking nootropics supplements. At the same time I had been using preworkout supplements like Jack3d which contain DMAA. I always thought Jack3d was way too strong to use as a daily supplement for ADD/Focus issues.

A few weeks back I started a search for a nootropic that contained DMAA and I found out about Doxiderol.

I've been taking it daily for the last 3 weeks and I have to say that it is really effective. The DMAA amount they put in each capsule is most definitively much lower than a preworkout supplement. At the same time they add a number of nootropics (Vinpocetine, Huperzine A, Acetyl-L-Carnitine) that give me a balanced alertness throughout the day.

The other thing I noticed is that even though it contains DMAA I am actually getting much more restful sleep. I believe it is the Huperzine boosting my acetylcholine levels. Has anyone else used Doxiderol?

[gizmobrain]

I haven't used Doxiderol, but most of the ingredients are common noots.

Vinpocetine seems to have fallen out of fashion, because of possible issues with long term usage. If I remember right, it increases blood flow to the brain, increasing oxidative stress. Here is one thread about such topic, and it quotes a couple studies; I'm sure there is more info.

Bacopa monnieri would help combat the oxidative stress, and also includes a few other benefits as well, including slight PDE4 inhibition, since it includes luteolin (but probably not much).

Huperzine A is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, which has fallen out of fashion around here as well, because acetylcholinesterase has been shown to have important functions in the brain. It seems like most people don't recommend taking it more than once or twice a week.

Acetyl-L-Carnitine is a great overall noot, but it is usually taken in combination with something like Alpha Lipoic Acid in order to reduce oxidative stress.

B-vitamins are one of those things that get included in everything. You usually don't need them unless you have a metabolism issue, in which case, you usually need a better form of them anyway. Also, if you do actually have a metabolism issue, the form included in most supplements can block the absorption of the better forms. I noticed a big improvement when I started avoiding cyanocobalamin and instead using sublingual Methylcobalamin (Methyl B12).

The inclusion of DMAA is probably where the biggest concentration boost comes from, since it releases dopamine/norepinephrine. The others just kind of provide support for a stimulated brain.

All in all, it's not the worst blend, but you could probably replicate it's effects for a bit cheaper.

You bring up a good point about sleep. Adderall jacked my sleep schedule up, but DMAA has such a short duration that you can take it in the evening and still be tired by bedtime.

Edited by zrbarnes, 22 March 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[gizmobrain]

I received my order of Primaforce 1,3-dimethylamylamine 20mg. The pills are a bigger sized capsule than they were last time. Weird.

What's weirder is how quickly the world comes into focus once I take a stimulant. About 20 minutes after taking the first pill the brainfog rolls back and I can think clearly.

My resting heart rate went from low 60's bpm to high 60's, which is still in a healthy range. I don't have a blood pressure cuff though.

With Adderall, my resting heart rate would go from low 60's to high 80's.

Edited by zrbarnes, 23 March 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[Orajel]

Methylhexanamine is a pretty mysterious compound, the pharmacology is not well known. It's not structurally similar to ephedrine or amphetamine because it lacks a phenyl ring, and it's not thought to act on receptors directly as an agonist. It's speculated that it increases NE levels in the synapse and it is a mild vasoconstrictor, which explains the nasal decongestant properties. It is more potent than caffeine, which means you need a much smaller dose to acheive stimulant effects. There is almost no credible scientific data regarding this compound.

It seems like it's very similar to caffeine, and has the same side effects. High doses can allegedly cause a stroke or death, which is true for caffeine. I should also note that caffeine has a very different mechanism of action, and the mechanism of action of methylhexanamine is only speculated (increasing NE levels)

Edit: A couple good sources:
http://www.drugs-for...ethylhexanamine

http://www.webmd.com...METHYLAMYLAMINE

That being said, there is a mounting body of proof that caffeine does everything methylhexanamine is touted to do, and lots of evidence that it does it better. I personally cannot tell the difference between methylhexanamine and caffeine, except caffeine appears to last longer. One reason you might respond better to methylhexanamine than caffeine is because it is effective at a much lower dose, and the dose your taking could translate into a higher dose of caffeine. You also need to consider caffeine tolerance, and personal differences. Different people respond to different things, so my statement at the begenning of this paragraph might not be true for you.

As for it being natural, this is what webmd says about it:

"Some products claim that dimethylamylamine naturally comes from rose geranium oil. Supplements that contain this ingredient sometimes list rose geranium, geranium oil, or geranium stems on the label. However, laboratory analysis shows that this drug probably does not come from this natural source. It is thought that these manufacturers have artificially added this drug to the supplement rather than obtaining it from a natural source."

Edited by Orajel, 25 March 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[gizmobrain]

Methylhexanamine is a pretty mysterious compound, the pharmacology is not well known. It's not structurally similar to ephedrine or amphetamine because it lacks a phenyl ring, and it's not thought to act on receptors directly as an agonist. It's speculated that it increases NE levels in the synapse and it is a mild vasoconstrictor, which explains the nasal decongestant properties.

It seems like it's very similar to caffeine, and has the same side effects. High doses can allegedly cause a stroke or death, which is true for caffeine.

Edit: A couple good sources:
http://www.drugs-for...ethylhexanamine

http://www.webmd.com...METHYLAMYLAMINE

1,3-dimethylamylamine works amazingly for me mentally, whereas caffeine only makes my heart beat faster. I'd love to know more about it and if it is safer than Adderall at the same dosage.

Benefits over Adderall at the same dosage for me:

• No tunnel vision
• More easy to switch from work to social situations
• Less sweating
• Slower tolerance than Adderall
• Can sleep at night
• Can buy legally online (for much cheaper)
• Not as bad of dry mouth as Adderall
• No jaw clenching
• Much less severe crash symptoms (slight headache w/DMAA vs migrane w/Adderall)
• Lower heart rate

Side effects similar to Adderall:

• Shaky hands if I mix with too much caffeine
• Loss of appetite (goes away as it wears off like Adderall, but Adderall caused binge-like urges when wearing off)
• Increased Libido
• Increased talkativeness during social situations
• Increased blood pressure

I feel like if I understood more about how it works (and how it is different than Methylphenidate, Amphetamines, and Caffeine) then I might be able to find a healthier solution to my underlying problem.

I also would be interested to know if there is any good way of blocking the peripheral effects. Heart rate does not increase, but blood pressure does a bit. I could counter this with jiaogulan, which I have used with good results in the past.

Edited by zrbarnes, 25 March 2012 - 06:23 AM.

[gizmobrain]

I received information regarding the change in capsule size from Primaforce:

Thank you for contacting us. Both of those capsules contain exactly the same amount of 1,3 Dimethylamylamine. Variation on cap size is completely normal and is determined by which machine the caps are filled on. If you have the smaller and larger caps together you will notice that the small caps are packed rather tight and the larger caps are looser. Our 1,3 has no ingredients other than 1,3 and gelatin. I hope this answers all of your questions. If not, or you have further questions please don't hesitate to contact me. Have a great day!
--
Valley
Scivation Inc
1448 Industry Dr.
Burlington, NC 27215
336-567-0104

Edited by zrbarnes, 26 March 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[gizmobrain]

That being said, there is a mounting body of proof that caffeine does everything methylhexanamine is touted to do, and lots of evidence that it does it better. I personally cannot tell the difference between methylhexanamine and caffeine, except caffeine appears to last longer. One reason you might respond better to methylhexanamine than caffeine is because it is effective at a much lower dose, and the dose your taking could translate into a higher dose of caffeine. You also need to consider caffeine tolerance, and personal differences. Different people respond to different things, so my statement at the begenning of this paragraph might not be true for you.

It's interesting that DMAA is closer related to caffeine than to amphetamines, because the effect for me is much more centralized than caffeine.

Caffeine under 200mg gives me more endurance physically, but does close to nothing for concentration or motivation. Above 200mg, I get shaky hands, fast heart rate, but no additional mental stimulation.

In the past, to assess my caffeine tolerance, I cut out all sources for close to a month. When I started drinking caffeine again, the results were the same.

I wish I could figure out why... I feel like in the midst of all these clues is the answer to my problem, yet I just can't see how they fit together.

[manic_racetam]

I received information regarding the change in capsule size from Primaforce:

Thank you for contacting us. Both of those capsules contain exactly the same amount of 1,3 Dimethylamylamine. Variation on cap size is completely normal and is determined by which machine the caps are filled on. If you have the smaller and larger caps together you will notice that the small caps are packed rather tight and the larger caps are looser. Our 1,3 has no ingredients other than 1,3 and gelatin. I hope this answers all of your questions. If not, or you have further questions please don't hesitate to contact me. Have a great day!
--
Valley
Scivation Inc
1448 Industry Dr.
Burlington, NC 27215
336-567-0104

Hmmmm... Only 1,3 and gelatin? Do they mean gelatin capsule or gelatin powder? I hope they aren't suggesting that 20mg of DMAA fills a size 1 or size 0 capsule (I'm assuming it's one of those sizes). Usually with such a small dose there has to be a filler used. What's listed on the ingredient label? Just curious.

[Orajel]

Anybody come up with any more info on this stuff?

Edited by Orajel, 27 March 2012 - 03:04 AM.

[Orajel]

That being said, there is a mounting body of proof that caffeine does everything methylhexanamine is touted to do, and lots of evidence that it does it better. I personally cannot tell the difference between methylhexanamine and caffeine, except caffeine appears to last longer. One reason you might respond better to methylhexanamine than caffeine is because it is effective at a much lower dose, and the dose your taking could translate into a higher dose of caffeine. You also need to consider caffeine tolerance, and personal differences. Different people respond to different things, so my statement at the begenning of this paragraph might not be true for you.

It's interesting that DMAA is closer related to caffeine than to amphetamines, because the effect for me is much more centralized than caffeine.

Caffeine under 200mg gives me more endurance physically, but does close to nothing for concentration or motivation. Above 200mg, I get shaky hands, fast heart rate, but no additional mental stimulation.

In the past, to assess my caffeine tolerance, I cut out all sources for close to a month. When I started drinking caffeine again, the results were the same.

I wish I could figure out why... I feel like in the midst of all these clues is the answer to my problem, yet I just can't see how they fit together.

What I find interesting about It is that it has a very different mechanism of action than caffeine. That allows for all kinds of Different personal experiences. Caffeine works great for me but makes me nervous which I can't stand, and it I consume too much I get sleepy. I intend on experimenting more with this odd stimulant in the future, I really want it to work better than caffeine although they both have affected me the same so far.

It's shady that there's not much info about it, it could be neurotoxic for all we know!

[gizmobrain]

I don't have full text access, but there might be some interesting info in these:

Studies of methylhexaneamine in supplements and geranium oil.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22147493

Effects of 1,3-dimethylamylamine and caffeine alone or in combination on heart rate and blood pressure in healthy men and women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22030947

Here is also a nice resource:
http://www.caymanche...m/catalog/10749

Edited by zrbarnes, 27 March 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Orajel]

I don't have full text access, but there might be some interesting info in these:

Studies of methylhexaneamine in supplements and geranium oil.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22147493

Effects of 1,3-dimethylamylamine and caffeine alone or in combination on heart rate and blood pressure in healthy men and women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22030947

Here is also a nice resource:
http://www.caymanche...m/catalog/10749

Interesting, what I took from those studies is that dmaa is probably not natural, it doesn't effect heart rate much, but it increases blood pressure.

One study noted that NE levels were unchanged by dmaa, so how does this stuff work? It could inhibit adenosine binding like caffeine, but I haven't seen anything that indicates it does that. Maybe it acts directly on NE receptors as an agonist? That's my guess, that would explain everything. But I'm speculating

[gizmobrain]

I don't know how I didn't see this nice write-up before:

http://hightowerphar...lamylamine.html

Lots of good information regarding DMAA's MoA and pharmacology.

[Galantamine]

I don't know how I didn't see this nice write-up before:

http://hightowerphar...lamylamine.html

Lots of good information regarding DMAA's MoA and pharmacology.

Great blog. Insightful. Dare I say, brilliant?