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C60 experiments @ home

buckyball c60 fullerene buckyballs

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#61 testerer

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:21 AM

According to 2007 studies by Tibor Braun et al, these are the key points regarding C60 solubility:

_Lower_ temperature gets better solubility. They tested at 10 up to 70 dgrees Celsius. at 10 degrees, solubility was highest implying exothermic dissolution.

Solutions were created using 5ml of oil and 14mg of C60 each by stirring for several days followed by ultra-centrifuge.

Regarding commercial oils, at 20 degrees Celsius, the results are as follows, where olive oil is "extra virgin" type:
Carapelli Olive oil = ~3ug/ml
Borgess Olive oil = ~6ug/ml
Olatalia Olive oil = ~4ug/ml
Venus Sunflower oil = ~7ug/ml
Floriol Sunflower oil = ~4ug/ml
Eden Sunflower oil = ~5.6ug/ml

They also hint that both purple and orange tints (435nm and 600nm band) are clearly formed early on and purple is more intense in oils with higher unsaturation and thus high iodine number, such as linseed oil. They proposed that C60 has better solubility in lower-unsaturation oils, but the data doesn't seem conclusive, with a small dataset.

Update: they also hinted that the purple color is associated with addition of fatty chain to the C60 cage. So the C60 is not only dissolved, but also reacts resulting in some amount of C60 being grafted to the fatty chains.

Edited by testerer, 02 May 2012 - 01:28 AM.

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#62 zorba990

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:33 AM

Great idea. I would like to try coconut oil because it is clear but it is solid at room temperature.

Has anyone purchased the paper of the solubility of C60 in different vegetable oils? I don't want to shell out $40 just to get a list of which is the best.


Coconut oil is not listed in that study so don't bother. I'm not sure what I can re-port of it here under fair use. I have the pdf...

#63 testerer

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:37 AM

Now, based on a fast glance on 2008 paper from Russia by Semenov et al, the results are quite different. The different might possibly be attributed to different oil brands and manufacturing standards.
They have found that C60 is better dissolved at _higher_ temperatures, and found Sunflower oil of local manufacture and Corn oil to be best solvents.

FWIW the study seems to be badly translated from russian, leading to many ambiguities which could have been caused by procedural errors. In any case, they tested the solubility with ratios of 100mg of fullerene per 10ml of oil.

Edited by testerer, 02 May 2012 - 01:46 AM.


#64 testerer

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:41 AM

Coconut oil is not listed in that study so don't bother. I'm not sure what I can re-port of it here under fair use. I have the pdf...



If you choose to believe the 2007 European study, then lower unsaturation means better solubility. Thus coconut oil should be a very effective solvent.

Still, whether the beneficial effects of the oil+c60 on rats were caused by the dissolved C60 or by the C60 grafted onto fatty chains specific to olive oil is a different question.

#65 testerer

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:25 AM

Here is a link for the latest study from the Russian team, for additional "wood" oils:

http://www.chem.asu....02/1002_147.pdf

For those without a translator handy, compared to same in the vegetable oils study, the numbers are 10-300% higher, their explanation being that molecular structure of the "wood" oils is better suited as a solvent for C60.
In short, from the c60+c70+c76-90 results, the best solvents for C60 at 20-40 and at 80 degrees Celsius are Clove (Syzigium aromaticum) oil at 7g/l, Juniper wood oil at 5.6g/l, Juniper leaf oil at 4.3g/l.
For temperatures of 50-70, the Juniper wood oil is a better solvent than Clove oil.

For C60 by itself, there is only Clove oil vs Palm oil comparison, so the best solubility is Clove oil at 80 degrees providing 3.8g/l.

Update: from a different paper, seems like C60 is best dissolved in linolenic acid, less in linoleic and still less in oleic acid, which are part of most vegetable oils.

Update: For those interested, animal fat are much worse solvents than vegetable fat from other studies by same authors.

In short, for now, Clove oil seems to be the best solvent. It might also have better taste than olive oil for Anthony's rat.

Edited by testerer, 02 May 2012 - 02:51 AM.


#66 zorba990

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:09 AM

For the fringe folks....hopefully I'm not helping to start the zombie apocalypse with this...

Attached Files


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#67 Metrodorus

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:17 AM

Oil of cloves in these volumes will put you in hospital ......quite fast.......it is also an analgesic. People use it for toothache.

#68 mpe

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:27 AM

Turnbuckle,
Has your blood sugar levels or blood pressure changed with your impressive cholesterol drop ?

Thanks
Mike

#69 smithx

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:39 AM

I am not sure how they mixed the solution but I am guessing it was with a test tube rocker.


I doubt that they would use a test tube rocker.

It was probably either something like this:
http://www.gogenlab....ign=Google+Base

They electromagnetically spin a teflon-coated bar which is placed inside the fluid container.

#70 smithx

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:41 AM

I also plan to filter with a 0.2 micron filer.


You are forgetting that the researchers also spun the fluid at 5g for 1 hour and then filtered the supernatant.

Taking this stuff before it's know if it accumulates in organs, causes kidney damage, etc. is a big risk.

Taking it without preparing it properly is a crazy risk.
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#71 testerer

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:51 AM

Given the findings about C60 being well soluble in linolenic acid, the chia (salvia hispanica), kiwifruit seed and shiso (Perilla) oils should be a good match.

#72 testerer

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:56 AM

Study about C60 oil permeability into skin: http://www.pinkhoriz...nt/Squalane.pdf

#73 Turnbuckle

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:39 AM

Now, based on a fast glance on 2008 paper from Russia by Semenov et al, the results are quite different. The different might possibly be attributed to different oil brands and manufacturing standards.
They have found that C60 is better dissolved at _higher_ temperatures, and found Sunflower oil of local manufacture and Corn oil to be best solvents.

FWIW the study seems to be badly translated from russian, leading to many ambiguities which could have been caused by procedural errors. In any case, they tested the solubility with ratios of 100mg of fullerene per 10ml of oil.



I read somewhere that fullerenes will begin to react at higher temperatures, so the results of 100 mg per ml are likely to be solutions of reaction products.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 02 May 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#74 Turnbuckle

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:41 AM

Turnbuckle,
Has your blood sugar levels or blood pressure changed with your impressive cholesterol drop ?

Thanks
Mike


Haven't checked blood sugar, but BP this morning was in the usual range--117/80.

#75 HappyPhysicist

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:41 AM

I am not sure how they mixed the solution but I am guessing it was with a test tube rocker.


I doubt that they would use a test tube rocker.

It was probably either something like this:
http://www.gogenlab....n=Google%2BBase

They electromagnetically spin a teflon-coated bar which is placed inside the fluid container.



I was thinking they might but in the rat paper they only prepared 10 mL of oil. That is a tiny sample to use a magnetic stirrer with. They are expensive. I bought one on ebay that has a broken potentiometer.

#76 HappyPhysicist

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:45 AM

I can borrow a centrifuge and filters are easy to buy online.

I am not sure how I am going to prevent oxidation while stirring. If I use the test tube rocker there needs to be an air pocket to maximize the mixing but is this going to lead to oxidation? I could vacuum out the air but I worry that the lower pressure will adversely affect the solubility. I supposed I could put some inherit gas in the tube to displace the oxygen. Helium perhaps.

#77 Turnbuckle

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:54 AM

I can borrow a centrifuge and filters are easy to buy online.

I am not sure how I am going to prevent oxidation while stirring. If I use the test tube rocker there needs to be an air pocket to maximize the mixing but is this going to lead to oxidation? I could vacuum out the air but I worry that the lower pressure will adversely affect the solubility. I supposed I could put some inherit gas in the tube to displace the oxygen. Helium perhaps.



Why is oxidation a problem? Olive oil is already resistant and C60 should make it more so. In any case you could use a marble or beads instead of an air pocket.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 02 May 2012 - 11:58 AM.


#78 Googoltarian

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:05 PM

I am not sure how I am going to prevent oxidation while stirring. (...) I supposed I could put some inherit inert gas in the tube to displace the oxygen. Helium perhaps.

In normal lab argon or nitrogen is used. Helium is lighter than air and will escape your vessel, displaced by air.

#79 HappyPhysicist

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:06 PM

I am not convinced that it is a problem. I don't remember seeing that mentioned in any of the papers. I think on forum member worried about it.

#80 HappyPhysicist

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:08 PM

If it is a problem then I can just vacuum it out:

Liquids and solids exhibit practically no change of solubility with changes in pressure. Gases as might be expected, increase in solubility with an increase in pressure.

#81 Metrodorus

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:18 PM

Franco Cataldo seems to have done most of the research on fullerene in oil soluble media. There is a book by him available summarising the recent research.

Medicinal Chemistry and Pharmacological Potential of Fullerenes and Carbon ...

By Franco Cataldo
http://books.google....id=fQsWkbxk-9EC

#82 stephen_b

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:12 PM

Great idea. I would like to try coconut oil because it is clear but it is solid at room temperature.


Olive oil has primarily long chain fatty acids, whereas coconut oil has primarily medium chain fatty acids. They get metabolized very differently, with the medium chain fatty acids taking a fast trip to the liver via the portal vein and the longer chain fatty acids going preferentially through the lymph pathway. The lymph pathway comes into contact with more tissues in the body, and that might turn out to be important.
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#83 HappyPhysicist

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:27 PM

Excellent point. It is probably just best to stick with olive oil for this reason and to stay close to the original rat paper (as I affectionately call it).

#84 revenant

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:17 PM

Apparently the C60 polymer in this paper (C60-POx) doesn't make it into the mitochondria, but the paper is interesting, and points to superoxide scavenging as a mechanism. I wonder if the C60 polymer-complex disolved in olive oil, would it cross the mitochondrial membrane? If so, C60-POx/olive oil might be more stable and safer than just a C60/oil solution.

"
These results show that C60POx complexes are non-toxic, neuronal cell permeable, superoxide scavenging antioxidants that might

be promising candidates for the treatment of brain-related diseases associated with increased levels of

superoxide."


2011 Elsevier L



http://tu-dresden.de...load/Tong11.pdf

#85 Mind

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:33 PM

Just to be sure, I am absolutely supportive of everyone discussing this. I am following this thread closely because it is so interesting. We are on the cutting edge of health and rejuvenation here at Longecity because we are willing to explore new ideas and be trail-blazers. I think progress would occur more quickly if more people we allowed to pursue experimental treatments (as an aside, if this concoction proves to be a bonanza for healthy life extension, you can bet your bottom dollar the FDA will ban it quicker than you can say "rat study").

I am not going to be an early adopter on this one, only because this study's sample size is extremely small and there are some unresolved questions about the data. But by all means, please keep sharing data, ideas, and methods.

Edited by Mind, 02 May 2012 - 07:33 PM.

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#86 HappyPhysicist

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:31 PM

Mind,

And if you think we are doing something stupid please say so. It helps to have a reality check every so often.

HP

#87 Brainbox

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:42 PM

I could express myself in a more blunt way easily. After all, I'm Dutch and being blunt is our national hobby.

First of all, I'm following this new insight with a lot of interest. For me counts, like for all of us, if we sit down and going to follow this from "the outside", nothing much will happen during the next day, week, month or even year. For us enthusiastic and therefor impatient go-getters that is kind of unsatisfactory. After all, we want to make THE difference ourselves.

On the flip-side, if we are going to experiment on our big rats, we take a huge risk imo. It would be nice to create just a little chance to become more healthy, but what if we misjudge the risks that are involved? Or what if we are unable to judge the risks because of insufficient availability of plain facts? Even the study that triggered all this has some major flaws. Sure, we found some more studies that seems to support the overall bright shiny picture, but are we sure we are not acting prematurely based on wishful thinking?

Using the famous slogan "live healthy or die trying" eeuhhm, or was it "live healthy or try dying" .... Even at a syntactical level the difference is not huge.....

And for the blunt part: Wake up people. I just don't think we are aware of what we are doing here. That is, assumed you are really going to donate your own body to scientific research.

Why don't we set up a real experiment, buy some rats, and first try to replicate this study and do some toxicity assessments? Sure, that will take 60 months if we want to really measure the lifespan in stead of extrapolating it with some kind of fancy algorithm and don't want to write inconsistent statements in our report.

Let's be real, how do we want to judge the effect for our "big rats"? We can measure some blood markers like cholesterol. If you want to focus on just that one silly marker, why not take some statins and forget about the side-effects these have? Because, in essence, that is exactly what seems to be happening now.

Really, I'd like to make a serious plea for a Longecity managed and executed scientific experiment. That would make THE difference! I cannot make decisions about spending our precious capital, but I imagine we could just get this whole thing on a higher level by spending some money and start a real experiment.

:)

Edited by Brainbox, 02 May 2012 - 09:58 PM.

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#88 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:37 PM

Well,
tomorrow I will be flying in to LAX and see if I can borrow a centrifuge, buy a few things along the way, including a quick visit to the Ren Fair... at this point the lead content in the Tuna is what I am worried about... more so than the C60. :happy:

It looks like the kilo of C60 will be in around mid-may, and the processing should commence soon after.
Hmm... you know...I am thinking that It's looking like a ridiculous amount of olive oil to process for 1 kg of C60...

Maybe I need to re-think this a bit more since most centrifuges I can barrow are smaller, and buying a high capacity centrifuge seems to be a bit out of the question at this time.

.... :sleep: ... hmmmmm

A
Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

#89 HappyPhysicist

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:10 AM

I should disclose to the other readers that I am trying this because I have ALS, aka Lou Gehrig's disease. A study cited in this forum showed that fullerenes extend the life of the SOD mouse, i.e., mice with the hereditary form of ALS. I had been aware of this study, but after the rat study came out I decided to give fullerenes a try. The theory is that C60 mimics the SOD antioxidant that is defective in people with ALS, but no theories surrounding ALS are well founded yet.

So for me the risk/benefit ratio is a little different. I have approximately 2 years to live. I wouldn't want people to feel more inclined to try it just because I did.

If this does affect my disease progression it will be evident within a few months.
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#90 HappyPhysicist

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:12 AM

Anthony,

You bought a kilogram! Where the heck did you get that?

HP






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