11 replies to this topic

[Rior]

The experience of "flow" has always fascinated me, as the effortless experience of life and being "in the moment" is what many of us strive for in our day-to-day life.

Quoting wikipedia:

"Flow is the mental state of operation in which a person performing an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity. In essence, flow is characterized by complete absorption in what one does."

Recently (in February) a study was done to identify the biological root for the experience of Flow. Here is the study as follows:

Neuroimage. 2013 Feb 15;67:1-6. doi: 10.1016/j.neuroimage.2012.10.072. Epub 2012 Nov 2.
Individual differences in the proneness to have flow experiences are linked to dopamine D2-receptor availability in the dorsal striatum.

de Manzano Ö, Cervenka S, Jucaite A, Hellenäs O, Farde L, Ullén F.

Source

Department of Neuroscience, Karolinska Institutet, SE-171 77 Stockholm, Sweden. orjan.demanzano@ki.se

Abstract


Flow is a subjective experience of high but effortless attention, enjoyment, and low self-awareness that can occur during the active performance of challenging tasks. The dispositional proneness to experience flow is associated with personality traits that are known to be influenced by dopaminergic neural systems. Here, for the first time, we investigated relations between flow proneness and dopaminergic function. Specifically, we tested the hypothesis that the availability of dopamine D2-receptors in the striatum is positively associated with flow proneness. Striatal D2-receptor availability was measured in a sample of 25 healthy adults using positron emission tomography and [(11)C]raclopride. Flow proneness was measured using the Swedish Flow Proneness Questionnaire. As hypothesized, there was a significant correlation (r=.41) between striatal D2-receptor availability and flow proneness. An exploratory analysis of striatal subregions showed that the relation was mainly driven by the dorsal striatum, with a significantly higher correlation in the putamen than in the ventral striatum. The findings constitute the first demonstration of an association between flow proneness and dopaminergic function. We suggest that the proneness to experience flow is related to personality dimensions that are under dopaminergic control and characterized by low impulsiveness, stable emotion, and positive affect.

I figured this study was worth sharing. As for achieving a greater state of Flow, I would first suggest practicing meditation and/or yoga. However, that said, does anyone know of any supplements that increase the concentration of D2 receptors? Either in general, or specifically in the dorsal striatum.

I seem to find myself moving away from modulatory supplements to achieve the mental state I desire, and more towards day-to-day mental training such as meditation and yoga. I find these practices to be multitudes stronger in terms of changing one's state of mind than any supplement ever has been for me. That said, I'm still curious to hear anyone's comments on this.

[noos]

Interesting.
I googled and found this: Forskolin & inositol
http://www.bluelight...ion-in-striatum

Edited by noos, 11 July 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[noos]

Modafinil?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/17477916/

[BLimitless]

No you will NOT find a true sustainable flow state by targeting a single receptor.



However it's awesome you point to D2 because ironically a dopamine imbalance is directly linked to psychosis. Psychosis, is pretty much a flow/mystical state but deregulated and chaotic.
And also, hallucinogens can induce flow states, many of them are notorious for such a thing. And what do hallucinogens do? Simulate psychosis!



Yes I'm just playing word games, but you can see where I am pointing to. 5-HT agonism, D2, etc. All point to the flow state.

Yet I am saying you will never get a sustainable flow state by hitting a single receptor. Because... flow originates from the correct flow of the breath. When the breath flows correctly deep in to the belly and back out, the muscles are relaxed yet totally ready to work at a moment's notice, the mind is silent, then flow is the emergent state.


So now when you take a stimulant, there is a good chance of hitting flow. Because a person feels euphoric, they relax! Then the breath flows correctly. Then the muscles relax yet are ready. And the mind, being satisfied (thanks to D2 agonism :P), is silent. When the mind is silent, flow is its default mode of operation.




Flow = a state characterised by minimal obstructions between Pre-reality/imagination and reality. Obstructions being: thoughts, muscle tensions, environmental distractions, pain signals, etc. When you minimise these things, the neurons have much less of a workload. Meaning, more thought-energy directed towards the desired object. And also, there has to be the concrete visualisation of the reality, before it becomes reality. In the flow state you know 100% what the visual looks like but also, you execute it moment by moment. There is a strong parallel processing component going on. To hit the tennis ball, you do not think "ok must move hand up then left then a lil forward", you just go THWACK.



And that's the thing, you are asking how to induce that no-thought state with a receptor. This will be both fruitful and fruitless. And there will be confusion. Parties will be divided, one says X substance induces flow, look how obvious it is, while another says it could never work, they didn't get anything.

Flow is the result of the entire pyramid being laid down solidly. This is why PROFESSIONAL athletes are the ones known for the flow state. Joe Average who is playing basketball to forget the fact that he just fell out with his girlfriend, is not going to get into a Flow state. Flow is only for those who have 100% of their shit together. If you do not, you cannot get Flow. Flow is for the happy, for the serene.

This question is like saying "what drugs can I take to be happy?"

And for that, the answer is... all of the above





But really the fact you point to dopamine D2 is ironic because I use harmala alkaloids derived from B. Caapi or Syrian Rue to hit the Flow state. These alkaloids vastly increase the propensity for a Flow state to be generated. A nice solid dose of harmala + meditation => flow each and every single time, without fail. But just the harmala on its own does nothing much but make you feel all spinny and high and happy... you gotta meditate and centre the breath. Then Flow is 100% reproducible and highly predictable. Harmala alkaloids agonise dopamine D2 and I am sure this is a huge part of why it works.



I can't explain exactly as I don't know enough about pharmacology but put it this way... take the swift ease and able-ness of amphetamine (dopamine), combine it with the "zomg infinite thought" of hallucinogens (5HT) and add the tranquility of heroin/valium (actually... NMDA antagonism here) and you have harmala alkaloids. And the result of these factors is a direct channel to the Flow state. Still, you must work for it, it does not arise of its own accord. Flow is not the taking of the horse to the water - it is the drinking of the water moment by moment. Drugs can only be the horse. With a horse you will always get there faster!

What I notice... basically when I am wilfully hitting Flow. There are two things. One, silence. Pindrop silence, immutable silence. Two, the breath wakes me up. Each breath is like drinking caffeine or snorting coke. The very flow of my mind, I use the flow to wake up, to clarify, to feel clearer each and ever moment. The state at t=x writes to the state t=(x+1) with the signal "WAKE UP MORE, FEEL CRISP AND CLEAR". Whereas normally out of flow, the state at t=x writes forward with "meh get hazy and fall asleep, too much stress... okay maybe wake up". It kind of flip-flops. But when FLOWing, it does not flip-flop. The signal is always, BE AWAKE.

Breathing like this is a physical phenomenon. It feels like I am washing my sleep hazed crusty eyes out with cold water with each breath. Clearer and clearer and clearer, awake, more awake and even more awake. The more awake, the more Flow.

So my recommendation: Drink some ayahuasca - just b.caapi and nothing else, do some yoga with the direct aim of focusing... and prepare to shit your pants at what you might discover... and also because ayahuasca makes that happen

Edited by BLimitless, 11 July 2013 - 03:48 PM.

[CalMinera]

Ever try Salvia? I bought some plain dried leaf from a shop a while back and found it oddly nootropic. The initial effects begin to manifest themselves in the same way that the effects do for a standardized extract, but then it never fully 'takes off'. The more that it does though, the stronger and longer lasting the effects seem to become with the afterglow. I've found a little information about this afterglow effect with salvia here and there, but for me, it'll consistently provide Flow which in itself is just about worth toughing through the initial dysphoric dellerium.

Salvinorin A, the primary psychoactive chemical involved, is an agonist at the Kappa Opioid receptor which mediates dysphoric and addiction activities. It also possesses activity at the D2 receptor. I experience a strong feeling of guilt at first, for which I impulsively stand up like, "Oh shit! Something's wrong! Dunno what it is, but it needs my attention!" The strange disassociative effects then subside after a minute though my mind is left still vigilant. Everything becomes characterized, the nature of things seemingly more clear, and it's almost as if being in a perpetual state of déjà vu, making moments seem fateful, predetermined. Interactions with family and friends feel more intimate and engaging. Every activity, every maneuver feels smooth, on-point and consciously interactive with ease. Indeed.. Inverse agonism at the k opioid site is found to be anti-depressive, and i wonder if salvia's short duration comes with a sort of rebound effect with kappa.

[Heh]

Brainwave entrainment.

[machete234]

And also, hallucinogens can induce flow states, many of them are notorious for such a thing. And what do hallucinogens do? Simulate psychosis!

The 1950's called and want their bullshit back, sorry but true.

[Ukko]

PQQ. Inositol, lots of it. Forskolin. Threonic acid and other other vitamin C metabolites. Uridine and CDP choline. Theanine. Zinc.

http://www.longecity...mine-protector/

[Jack Pbj Chen]

Bump because this is incredibly fascinating and want to learn more about the physiological and biochemical ways in "hacking" a flow state. 

[sativa]

Bump because this is incredibly fascinating and want to learn more about the physiological and biochemical ways in "hacking" a flow state.

I'm currently daily micro dosing Syrian rue for this purpose. It's great so far - I'm still adapting to the new state of affairs...

[jroseland]

But really the fact you point to dopamine D2 is ironic because I use harmala alkaloids derived from B. Caapi or Syrian Rue to hit the Flow state. These alkaloids vastly increase the propensity for a Flow state to be generated. A nice solid dose of harmala + meditation => flow each and every single time, without fail. But just the harmala on its own does nothing much but make you feel all spinny and high and happy... you gotta meditate and centre the breath. Then Flow is 100% reproducible and highly predictable. Harmala alkaloids agonise dopamine D2 and I am sure this is a huge part of why it works.

I can't explain exactly as I don't know enough about pharmacology but put it this way... take the swift ease and able-ness of amphetamine (dopamine), combine it with the "zomg infinite thought" of hallucinogens (5HT) and add the tranquility of heroin/valium (actually... NMDA antagonism here) and you have harmala alkaloids. And the result of these factors is a direct channel to the Flow state. Still, you must work for it, it does not arise of its own accord. Flow is not the taking of the horse to the water - it is the drinking of the water moment by moment. Drugs can only be the horse. With a horse you will always get there faster!

What I notice... basically when I am wilfully hitting Flow. There are two things. One, silence. Pindrop silence, immutable silence. Two, the breath wakes me up. Each breath is like drinking caffeine or snorting coke. The very flow of my mind, I use the flow to wake up, to clarify, to feel clearer each and ever moment. The state at t=x writes to the state t=(x+1) with the signal "WAKE UP MORE, FEEL CRISP AND CLEAR". Whereas normally out of flow, the state at t=x writes forward with "meh get hazy and fall asleep, too much stress... okay maybe wake up". It kind of flip-flops. But when FLOWing, it does not flip-flop. The signal is always, BE AWAKE.

Breathing like this is a physical phenomenon. It feels like I am washing my sleep hazed crusty eyes out with cold water with each breath. Clearer and clearer and clearer, awake, more awake and even more awake. The more awake, the more Flow.

So my recommendation: Drink some ayahuasca - just b.caapi and nothing else, do some yoga with the direct aim of focusing... and prepare to shit your pants at what you might discover... and also because ayahuasca makes that happen

Cool!

 

So you're using using something like this?

https://eternityinab...eganum-harmala/

 

Would you say that these can be used as Nootropic to reach flowstate for writing or some productive purpose? Or do you just take them to trip?

 

What sort of dosage are you using? Are you making like a Syrian Rue tea?

[mono]

I've experienced the flow state quite a bit through mainly surfing and skateboarding. It wasn't like something that only lasted the duration of a one trick, or one wave, but it would continue for the whole session (when paddling, or pushing) for up to hours at a time. All I can say is that it is really a great feeling and a pay off to all the time spend on the board, but it only comes by every so often when you are doing these activities regularly.