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So do piracetam attack doses actually work? I've heard many says its just a waste, and others swear by them. Do they cut the amount of days needed to experience the full effects of the racetams or is it just a myth?
19 replies to this topic
#2
Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:27 AM
Sorry I'm not able to answer this, but I'm just saying that I think you have a great question here and can't wait for a response as well. I'm about to get Piracetam for the first time in a couple days and would love to know if taking an 'attack dose' is just a waste of it, or if it's worth it in the long run.
#7
Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:53 AM
I've been on oxiracetam for about 6 days at about 1-2g a day. Its pretty stimulating on its own, to the point that I exercised which I don't normally do to get rid of some of the energy. Piracetam is a totally different kind of energy, more like mental energy like your locked and loaded and ready to go.
#8
Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:55 AM
Well that is fantastic to know, because Piracetam will be my first nootropic experience and I'm mainly looking for some sort of 'mental booster'. But keep it posted how the 'normal' dose plays out compared to the attack dose, and hopefully someone else will chime in here about their opinion on attack doses as well.
#12
Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:54 AM
I can feel the subtle effects of piracetam today after about 3 hours of taking a gram per hour. Going to try splitting up 10g in to 4 doses per day. Also I should add today was a bad day to do any testing since my sleep was very disruptive and I got about 5 hours.
#14
Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:50 PM
I have never heard a scientific explanation for attack doses. I would like one if anyone has one.
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence behind it being needed in any way, but it may be okay for speeding onset. Since piracetam's effects seem to have a lot to do with changing NMDA receptor densities and distributions, it would be logical that a high dose would induce more change more quickly since it is stronger, but that would only be if the effect curve was linear, which it is not. I don't know if the curve is for an 'equilibrium' [not an official word for it, hopefully you understand what I mean] dosage or for individual doses (ie: does the response move along the curve slowly until it reaches a stable point at the taken dosage, or does a larger amount of piracetam have completely different effects on the body). If it was the former, attack doses would be reasonable but not required. They would, in a sense, accelerate the change in response, and you would use them to 'tune' the equilibrium point. Think of the equilibrium point as a point on the response line, and the distance(on the x axis, in mg) from your current equilibrium point to the target as the velocity of the point. A smaller dose would still achieve the desired effect, it would just take longer.
The Tmax (time for max concentration from injestion) is about 1 hour according to examine. Although examine mentions "loading", it is not mentioned in the study they reference. The referenced study only refers to its variable halflife. The most accepted and longest half-life that I can find is 5 hours. That would indicate that at 6 hours after ingestion of 800mg, you would have 400mg in your body, then 200mg at 11 hours, 100mg at 16 hours, and 50mg at 24 hours. That is hardly enough to warrant significant accumulation. Even though, at a large dose of 10g, you would have 1.25g after 24 hours, going down to 1.25g/day isn't (to my knowledge, please correct me if it is otherwise. I wonder about this sometimes) going to stabilize it at that dose. It will be 2.5g after one hour of taking the first dose of 1.25g down from 10g, 1.25mg 6 hours in from taking it, 630mg 11hours, 315mg 16 hours, 108mg by 24 hours.
No matter how high the initial dosage, once you scale down to the maintenance dosage, you will be around the same mg level in your body as if you had only taken the maintenance doses.
There are some arguments about it building up in the cell membranes or something, but I have never seen them backed by science.
As far as I see, there may be reasoning to support attack doses as optional, but it is most likely not needed. Either way, it probably isn't going to hurt anything to take attack doses.
Just be careful about that "mental energy like your locked and loaded and ready to go." I know that feeling. It borders on a strange mania type of thing and alters your decision making abilities. I wouldn't say that they are worse, but different. Be sure you are thinking about what you are doing, and either postpone important decisions until after that initial effect has worn off or stop taking it for a few days before making an important decision (I mean really important decisions. It is possible for them to be clouded by the feeling of "yeah, lets do things, lets go, come at me", and that could lead to getting in over your head.) It can be a good experience though, as it makes you more active in life. You will probably build almost complete (but not quite complete, maybe 25% of it stays) tolerance to this effect, at least that is how it works for me.
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence behind it being needed in any way, but it may be okay for speeding onset. Since piracetam's effects seem to have a lot to do with changing NMDA receptor densities and distributions, it would be logical that a high dose would induce more change more quickly since it is stronger, but that would only be if the effect curve was linear, which it is not. I don't know if the curve is for an 'equilibrium' [not an official word for it, hopefully you understand what I mean] dosage or for individual doses (ie: does the response move along the curve slowly until it reaches a stable point at the taken dosage, or does a larger amount of piracetam have completely different effects on the body). If it was the former, attack doses would be reasonable but not required. They would, in a sense, accelerate the change in response, and you would use them to 'tune' the equilibrium point. Think of the equilibrium point as a point on the response line, and the distance(on the x axis, in mg) from your current equilibrium point to the target as the velocity of the point. A smaller dose would still achieve the desired effect, it would just take longer.
The Tmax (time for max concentration from injestion) is about 1 hour according to examine. Although examine mentions "loading", it is not mentioned in the study they reference. The referenced study only refers to its variable halflife. The most accepted and longest half-life that I can find is 5 hours. That would indicate that at 6 hours after ingestion of 800mg, you would have 400mg in your body, then 200mg at 11 hours, 100mg at 16 hours, and 50mg at 24 hours. That is hardly enough to warrant significant accumulation. Even though, at a large dose of 10g, you would have 1.25g after 24 hours, going down to 1.25g/day isn't (to my knowledge, please correct me if it is otherwise. I wonder about this sometimes) going to stabilize it at that dose. It will be 2.5g after one hour of taking the first dose of 1.25g down from 10g, 1.25mg 6 hours in from taking it, 630mg 11hours, 315mg 16 hours, 108mg by 24 hours.
No matter how high the initial dosage, once you scale down to the maintenance dosage, you will be around the same mg level in your body as if you had only taken the maintenance doses.
There are some arguments about it building up in the cell membranes or something, but I have never seen them backed by science.
As far as I see, there may be reasoning to support attack doses as optional, but it is most likely not needed. Either way, it probably isn't going to hurt anything to take attack doses.
Just be careful about that "mental energy like your locked and loaded and ready to go." I know that feeling. It borders on a strange mania type of thing and alters your decision making abilities. I wouldn't say that they are worse, but different. Be sure you are thinking about what you are doing, and either postpone important decisions until after that initial effect has worn off or stop taking it for a few days before making an important decision (I mean really important decisions. It is possible for them to be clouded by the feeling of "yeah, lets do things, lets go, come at me", and that could lead to getting in over your head.) It can be a good experience though, as it makes you more active in life. You will probably build almost complete (but not quite complete, maybe 25% of it stays) tolerance to this effect, at least that is how it works for me.
#15
Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:28 AM
Well with my experience on today's 'attack dose' - I was quite disappointed. I initially took about 3.2 grams of Piracetam with water then after an hour didn't notice anything, so I went to my local Vitamin Shoppe and bought Alpha GPC for choline. I took 2 of the pills (containing 300mgs each for a total of 600mgs) then waited about another half hour or so before taking more Piracetam- this time taking 3.5 grams. So I guess I took a total of near 7 grams of Piracetam within about 2 hours (as well as 600mgs of Alpha GPC for choline) and haven't noticed anything different. Maybe at times I 'think' I'm noticing something subtle but then I just attribute it to being placebo.
EDIT - Okay, so it seems the only thing I can distinguish from not being placebo is that I just feel pretty tired. Kinda utterly lethargic. I definitely notice that my eyes feel very heavy and have an intense urge to want to close.
EDIT - Okay, so it seems the only thing I can distinguish from not being placebo is that I just feel pretty tired. Kinda utterly lethargic. I definitely notice that my eyes feel very heavy and have an intense urge to want to close.
Edited by RobDaBomb121, 14 August 2013 - 01:44 AM.
#16
Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:10 AM
Your probably tired from the Alpha Gpc it makes most people tired try not to take it every day maybe just every other day. Anyways after about 10 grams a day give or take for a week, noticing big differences. Give piractam a week or so to kick in then you will start noticing the effects.
#17
Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:51 AM
Okay, I definitely don't plan on giving up on it just yet. I just was surprised I had no results with a big attack dose. And the Alpha GPC I just bought today for the first time and took two thinking the choline would make the piracetam work more noticeably. But is Alpha GPC the only choline supplement that causes drowsiness? Because that's the exact opposite of what I'm looking for.
#18
Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:13 AM
So day two, I read ScienceGuy's thread on why you should be taking 4.8 grams per dose and decided to follow that. I took 4.8 in the morning and another 4.8 later in the day. An hour ago or so I decided to take another gram just because I planned on going to bed soon and I've read some intriguing experiences with people who've had great lucid dreams and better sleeping experiences taking Piracetam before bed.
Earlier I didn't seem to notice absolutely one thing. So before taking the second dose, I took an Alpha GPC pill. I feel it may have made the second dose potential more noticeable. I say 'potentially' because I grew bored with the paper I was writing and decided to hop on Xbox for a bit and play a game (single player- don't normally do that because I don't have time for long gaming sessions) and became quite enthralled with the game and the storyline. I was highly compelled to keep playing the game to beat it just to keep unraveling the story- which seemed absolutely great and interesting. I wouldn't say that I 'enjoyed' playing a video game any more than normal due to the Piracetam, but I will say that I was more interested than usual to any game's story during this time (which was probably a couple hours after my second dose of Piracetam). I guess a way that can help make this make more sense is that it seems the Piracetam may have made me more 'focused' on the games story than usual. I was quite interested in the story but I can't ENTIRELY contribute it to the Piracetam though, because maybe I just was actually paying more attention to the story because it was very good and I actually had the time to 'get into' the game, so to speak, because I had the time to set aside for it (earlier I pointed out how I normally play a quick game online because I can only spare a half hour or hour to play- while this time I actually knew I had the time to play the single player)
I can't really say for sure I'm getting desired effects from Piracetam yet. After all, the only thing I've noticed so far was this interest in a game earlier which I can't really contribute to being from Piracetam completely anyway. I didn't notice any visual/auditory effects differently or anything else that I would have imagined with Piracetam. My thought process was no different and I felt no different really in the slightest.
As a matter of fact, for the past hour or so I've been experiencing terrible headaches, and I have felt extremely nauseous for the past half hour or so. Quite dumbfounded here because I assumed the Alpha GPC earlier should/would have prevented side effects like this.
Earlier I didn't seem to notice absolutely one thing. So before taking the second dose, I took an Alpha GPC pill. I feel it may have made the second dose potential more noticeable. I say 'potentially' because I grew bored with the paper I was writing and decided to hop on Xbox for a bit and play a game (single player- don't normally do that because I don't have time for long gaming sessions) and became quite enthralled with the game and the storyline. I was highly compelled to keep playing the game to beat it just to keep unraveling the story- which seemed absolutely great and interesting. I wouldn't say that I 'enjoyed' playing a video game any more than normal due to the Piracetam, but I will say that I was more interested than usual to any game's story during this time (which was probably a couple hours after my second dose of Piracetam). I guess a way that can help make this make more sense is that it seems the Piracetam may have made me more 'focused' on the games story than usual. I was quite interested in the story but I can't ENTIRELY contribute it to the Piracetam though, because maybe I just was actually paying more attention to the story because it was very good and I actually had the time to 'get into' the game, so to speak, because I had the time to set aside for it (earlier I pointed out how I normally play a quick game online because I can only spare a half hour or hour to play- while this time I actually knew I had the time to play the single player)
I can't really say for sure I'm getting desired effects from Piracetam yet. After all, the only thing I've noticed so far was this interest in a game earlier which I can't really contribute to being from Piracetam completely anyway. I didn't notice any visual/auditory effects differently or anything else that I would have imagined with Piracetam. My thought process was no different and I felt no different really in the slightest.
As a matter of fact, for the past hour or so I've been experiencing terrible headaches, and I have felt extremely nauseous for the past half hour or so. Quite dumbfounded here because I assumed the Alpha GPC earlier should/would have prevented side effects like this.
#19
Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:08 PM
If you want to find out if there are any effects, you need to test yourself. Do some cognitive tests when off piracetam, then do them again when on piracetam. Record and compare results. Your subjective assessment of effect may not always be the same as what the cognitive tests indicate.
#20
Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:27 AM
Well I have been diagnosed with ADHD (although I believe I 'swayed' the answers on the tests mainly because I wanted a prescription for Adderall back in the day) so I notice it difficult to compare a cognitive test results from a day to day basis- whether or not with the help from any sort of outside stimulant or nutrient or whatnot. But I can say within the past week or so, I have NOT noticed too much of a difference. I definitely can NOT say I've experienced any of these 'music enthusiast' and 'visual experiences' that some claim from Piracetam. Yet, that doesn't mean I'm giving up on it. I definitely don't see any downside to when I take it except for the first hour or so after taking a dose I get a little jittery, worked up, and have a difficult time communicating (which is odd compared to all the readings I've done about how Piracetam helps boost communication skills) - BUT then again I should also make it known that my liver has a weird enzyme issue where when I take ANYTHING (things ranging from Vitamin C to Fish Oil to whatever medication) I sometimes feel 'odd' initially after taking it. I'm not 100% sure it is actually physiological or just placebo, because my mind does tend to play tricks on me more often than not and over-think everything.
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