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Is nothing something we can ever be?

afterlife spirit

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#31 TheBatman

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 09:22 PM

if humans still "are" before and after body life, shouldn't it be the same for animals? (/for single cells even? for lipid drops in water even?)
Could there be a frontier between what exists after death and what doesn't?


I would say life after death in some shape or form would include animals as well.

I think it all comes down to what does it mean to be alive.. and what separates living things from non-living things that exist.

As far as the frontier goes I think there would be some sort of division, but I don't have even the slightest guess on how it would work, as we can't exactly prove spirits exist in the first place. :/

#32 N.T.M.

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:33 AM

The only way the OP's question can even have validity is if you postulate on Cartesian dualism, which is, in itself, grossly untenable.

Does that answer your question?


Haha not sure what that means N.T.M., my vocabulary doesn't quite extend that far yet.


Oh, sorry. :) What I meant is that to be nothing, you must assume that there exists a state of being that's non-physical (i.e., "nothing"). In philosophy this is referred to as Cartesian dualism, or, more often, just dualism. The problem with this is that all the evidence supports its opposite, monism. In other words the answer to your question would be something like, "Probably not, although it's impossible to know for sure."
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#33 TheBatman

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:05 AM

The only way the OP's question can even have validity is if you postulate on Cartesian dualism, which is, in itself, grossly untenable.

Does that answer your question?


Haha not sure what that means N.T.M., my vocabulary doesn't quite extend that far yet.


Oh, sorry. :) What I meant is that to be nothing, you must assume that there exists a state of being that's non-physical (i.e., "nothing"). In philosophy this is referred to as Cartesian dualism, or, more often, just dualism. The problem with this is that all the evidence supports its opposite, monism. In other words the answer to your question would be something like, "Probably not, although it's impossible to know for sure."


Ok gotcha.I think you are ultimately correct.

I wonder why spirituality then is a term so commonly thrown around especially in psychology seeing as how we can't even prove they exist. I sure as hell hope we have them though. I mean who wants to turn into a tree when they die anyways...

As someone mentioned earlier, I wonder why it is necessary to love if we were just a bunch of chemicals. And I'm talking about unconditional love, not infatuation. I mean the fact that we know we can cause each other pain and even care enough to stop says that we are more than a cocktail of chemicals and reactions thrown together for our own individual survival. I just wonder where these tenancies come from i guess. I think that we humans and even most animals, who can care for others especially children and even sacrifice parts of our lives for the greater good of theirs, says that more is in control of the body then just the brain. Because a brain wouldn't tell a father it is logical to take a bullet for his child if the situation ever arose. It would be dead set on its own survival..

Anyways.. like you say I guess there is no way to know for sure.

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#34 N.T.M.

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:33 AM

The only way the OP's question can even have validity is if you postulate on Cartesian dualism, which is, in itself, grossly untenable.

Does that answer your question?


Haha not sure what that means N.T.M., my vocabulary doesn't quite extend that far yet.


Oh, sorry. :) What I meant is that to be nothing, you must assume that there exists a state of being that's non-physical (i.e., "nothing"). In philosophy this is referred to as Cartesian dualism, or, more often, just dualism. The problem with this is that all the evidence supports its opposite, monism. In other words the answer to your question would be something like, "Probably not, although it's impossible to know for sure."


Ok gotcha.I think you are ultimately correct.

I wonder why spirituality then is a term so commonly thrown around especially in psychology seeing as how we can't even prove they exist. I sure as hell hope we have them though. I mean who wants to turn into a tree when they die anyways...

As someone mentioned earlier, I wonder why it is necessary to love if we were just a bunch of chemicals. And I'm talking about unconditional love, not infatuation. I mean the fact that we know we can cause each other pain and even care enough to stop says that we are more than a cocktail of chemicals and reactions thrown together for our own individual survival. I just wonder where these tenancies come from i guess. I think that we humans and even most animals, who can care for others especially children and even sacrifice parts of our lives for the greater good of theirs, says that more is in control of the body then just the brain. Because a brain wouldn't tell a father it is logical to take a bullet for his child if the situation ever arose. It would be dead set on its own survival..

Anyways.. like you say I guess there is no way to know for sure.


The term spirituality can be used monistically, though. In fact, scientists (a group composed almost entirely of atheists) often report having had spiritual experiences.

As for what you said about us not being just a product of chemistry, I would have to disagree with your reasoning. Just because a quality doesn't carry an obvious benefit, it doesn't mean that that wasn't its origin. Consider pleiotropism, for example. If selective pressures cultivate a certain quality, other qualities--which by themselves carry no such benefit--can emerge as genetic byproducts. There's a similar parallel for emotionally motivated actions (your examples).

#35 Layberinthius

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 10:30 AM

I think memory is without a doubt our most important asset as part of our body, but I still don't think it's relevant to us existing after death. Even if our memories are nonexistent, we aren't visible, or tangible, i think we (or at least a part of us) will still be there with an ability to act upon matter. It may sound irrational to you, but everyone has irrational beliefs.

BTW I'm all for biologically engineering our immortality, but honestly I think we would run into some very serious problems. 1. We will have an over population of people and limited supplies. In this case, who will be deciding who stays and who goes? . 2. The Earth will still have its natural disasters ice ages, solar flares, ect. ect.. Take Yellowstone Volcano for example. When that thing goes we all go, despite your preserved mind and conditionally "immortal" body. 3. The Earth is eventually going to be destroyed, no doubt about it along with anyone who lives long enough to see it. These are just a few of the problems off of the top of my head..

So despite my irrational belief on spirituality, I see it more plausible than our modern day quest of engineered immortality, which will eventually fail one way or another.


I believe that memories are key to our existence, without our memories we become lesser than what we were as teenagers. But because I wrote everything, all of my lifetime memories into a computer, I got depressed one day and destroyed it all in just one step.

The human mind is so incredibly fragile that its very hard to preserve it, even some of our own parents will go to great lengths to damage and destroy our thoughts and ambitions.

Abusing tobacco and alcohol for a couple of years (I quit both) has taught me one thing, even if half of my brain was melted and it was damaged by those drugs, I am still here and I need to go on, even if I have lost a huge chunk of my childhood memories to drugs which are legal but should be illegal.

Unfortunatley I believe the reason behind us getting old and grumpy is because our brains biologically degrade due to distance from each neuron as our brains increase in size, and ontop of that from abuse of sugar, alcohol or tobacco, or just plain stress.

Noopept has thankfully reversed/repaired some of the damage done from the drugs.

Frankly I would love to be genetically engineered for my brain and body to go back to a size that it was when I was a teenager. I was faster and more intelligent back then, getting old is biologically safe for survival as I am stronger and taller now, but there are technological means for protecting ones self now, we dont need to defend ourselves with our fists anymore but we can use knives, guns or lasers.

Being a teenager is where I pretend and imagine where my mind/counciousness lives because it is where I was most happiest.

I believe being a teenager of 18-20 years old is the 'perfect' age to be.

1: No one will, unless they murder someone, we have polluted the world and we will pay for it, and no one cares about this beyond replacing a few light bulbs, I agree that its a very dangerous thought process to have on the only planet that we have. I've written another post which details what will occur in our future, its very bleak or humourous depending upon what side of the fence you sit. http://www.longecity...rs/#entry612702
2: This is why survivalism exists, and is why I am a survivalist.
3: Too easy, by the time it occurs I hope that I will be on a spaceship and out of here, or on Mars, or deep underground to kick off the next million years of existence with other human beings, there are many ways to survive even on an unhospitable planet, but its not a happy or infinite existence, everything ends eventually and whatever mechanism which makes us immortal had also better be portable or we wont be immortal for very long.

Cyborgs will most likely play a part in this, no doubt that photonic computers will probably at some point complement my biological brain or even completely replace it.

Dont get me wrong I wouldnt replace the biological experience for anything, I love the view of Venus setting on the horizon on a crystal clear night.

But imagine the immense capability of a Cyborg on a planet like Mars, an unterraformed planet like Mars. Your Brain inside of a Cyborg suit gets the processing power of a modern quantum and photonic computer (Immune to solar flares) with the shielding benefits of a space suit (to protect against both cosmic and solar radiation from all over the spectrum.

Religion:
I was raised Jehovah's Witness and quit it at age 12, I then became wholly Agnostic and after a few years wholly Atheist for 15 years. Only recently in the last 2 years have I slowly seen the benefits to praying to someone who doesnt exist, Buddha, and I have picked Buddhism up as a form of emotional support for my Biological brain.

The way I see religion, it is a bug fix, a patch for an imperfect computer made up of chemicals, neurons and electrons. Each brain needs this bugfix inorder to be a perfect brain but not ALL of them do, I didn't need it for 15 years but now I do again.

The reason being is that I am lonely and need Buddhism to cope, the knowledge that someone out there cares about me, Buddha cares for me, the reason I pray to Buddha is because people in this society are so incredibly selfish and annoying and destructive to someone elses life that I couldnt possibly live without it without going insane.

Edited by Layberinthius, 19 September 2013 - 10:59 AM.

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#36 N.T.M.

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:57 AM

Religion:
I was raised Jehovah's Witness and quit it at age 12, I then became wholly Agnostic and after a few years wholly Atheist for 15 years. Only recently in the last 2 years have I slowly seen the benefits to praying to someone who doesnt exist, Buddha, and I have picked Buddhism up as a form of emotional support for my Biological brain.

The way I see religion, it is a bug fix, a patch for an imperfect computer made up of chemicals, neurons and electrons. Each brain needs this bugfix inorder to be a perfect brain but not ALL of them do, I didn't need it for 15 years but now I do again.

The reason being is that I am lonely and need Buddhism to cope, the knowledge that someone out there cares about me, Buddha cares for me, the reason I pray to Buddha is because people in this society are so incredibly selfish and annoying and destructive to someone elses life that I couldnt possibly live without it without going insane.


I applaud you for your honesty. :)

#37 Layberinthius

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:55 AM

I applaud you for your honesty. :)


No problem :), I consider hiding the truth to be lying to ones self (delusions) and wont stand for anything else than utter sheer honesty no matter how hard it hurts from anyone that I interact with. Anything else is distorting the truth to fit whatever works best for whatever delusion somebody believes in at the present time.

I find myself deluding myself sometimes too, its another bug in our makeup that we have to force ourselves to route around.

But even people who think they know someone I find that more often than not are full of shit and are deluding themselves to the point that they cannot even see the truth when its screaming at them in their faces.

Most of the worlds problems are the cause of delusions and I've found the wealthier someone is the more deluded they become, to fit the endorphin hit that they are receiving they will gladly distort and delude themselves just so that they can ignore the reality of whatever it is that they are doing, just like a heroin addict does.

This is why most people are still in the matrix, it makes them feel good to ignore the truth because if they ignore the fact that they are destroying the earth then they can continue to get more money/feel good things, and over-ride the irrational idea that we should continue to pollute and destroy the earth just because you/I need a new iPhone/car. (for example)

The natural state of a stable and logical mind is depression, as soon as you introduce endorphins it becomes irrational and illogical, hence why the saying "power corrupts and apsolute power corrupts apsolutley" They're fucking addicts just like everyone else is.

If you want to see real humanitarian acts, go to the people who have nothing, that is what we are like when we are living inside nature, it is an artifact of modern society that we have such ready access to happy thoughts, money is a big one but tv and movies and music are another.

Nothing is something that we have ALWAYS been, it is a part of us and goes far back into the times of cavemen, it is only since we have defined the values of what is or what isnt "something" that we have become to define ourselves as worthless human beings without money/love/power/personal transportation.

If a cavewoman puts on a set of jewelery pearls and diamonds then she has increased her self worth and self value to the point that she would ignore any facts or reality of her existence just for the next 'fix', this is why in humans past we have seen gross corruption. But she is still a cavewoman.

The same thing occurs today in modern times with a wife and a new SUV, or a man and a new toolbox/car. They're all full of shit and nobody cares about the damage that they are doing to the world outside of their perfectly controlled and policed country.

The best analogy I can give is that the human being is exactly as it sounds, it is a human being a human, without electrons cursing through the human brain we are nothing, just as with a light bulb it is not a light bulb unless you parse current through it, it is the sum of its components without electricity, it is exactly the same way in the human brain, without electronic impulses and a constant level of chemical reactions occuring, we cease to exist, and we cease to be able to process the thought process that we exist.

Which is why when you go uncouncious you cease to process thoughts, you may have a residual absence of time but you are counciously completely unaware of anything occuring outside of your body and from behind your eyeballs you are unable to perceive anything, the world could end outside and you would be completely obivious under anasthesia, underneath a complete uncounciousness.

Our feelings of spiritualness (if they exist, they dont in me, I need to take care of myself though so I am kind to myself, you do not need to have a spirit inorder to treat yourself or others with kindness though.) are an inherent thought process which some people have and some people do not (ex: life-term mass murdering psychotic prisoners).

So therefore the logical conclusion to religion is that god does not exist, and more importantly satan does not exist, heaven and hell do not exist and Buddha while he may have been a physical being, today does no longer exist. However it is a thought process of mine which I need to cope, so I make him exist.

I am not unkind to myself or to others, so I have made a councious LOGICAL descision to undertake believing in such a being, thats all it takes for religion to work, you do not need to delude yourself and believe in things that other human beings (who wrote the material/bible) believe, ie: Faith. "You gotta have faith!" - delusions.

This last point, Logic, is what kept me alive throughout my teenage years, otherwise without this constant logical thought process analysing every single descision that I made I probably would have comitted suicide at age 14. It was either give up my faith and use logic to fight my way out of the delusional world of my parents, or kill myself. I made the logical and right choice by discarding the delusions. And have done so eversince unless I permit their existence in my own mind.

Logic can take you very very far, through some of the most disturbing and torturous life events that you can possibly ever hope to survive, but your mind and body are influenced and tortured/manipulated and deceived as an everyday event in this modern day society that we all live in. As a result some of us will turn to faith inorder to cope with the pain.

But logic is what powers everything, somebody steals because they logically need it/need money because they are either addicted to the endorphin rush of stealing or because they need money/food to survive. It is ALL logical. even with extremely delusional people, they are either mentally incapable of processing thoughts and emotions or they are vulnerable to delusional thoughts, and the endorpin/dopamine rush which accompanies undergoing these (previously mentioned) acts.

People need to develop their own personal firewalls, their own "bullshit filters" of their minds, to keep the bad and illogical mess that is a seething sea of bad and illogical thoughts out there which we encounter every single day. Putting up with something and agreeing with it are both bad ways of going about this. Agreeing with it is the highest tier that you can go to, putting up with something is not as bad as agreeing with it but it is close enough that you can find yourself beginning to become deluded/believing the delusions. I tend to ignore/avoid doing both of these things, agreeing with something is when I've lost, putting up with something is that can be lived with but is tantamount to being brainwashed/tortured by somebody elses erreronous thoughts and must be "flushed" from your own mind periodically throughout the day or else you will begin to believe them.

As soon as you become practiced at it, your mind can become a very impenentrable fortress, however you can still agree to believe certian things which may or MAY NOT be true, it is up to the rest of your brain to come up with what the truth is, by using logic and observation of facts, and a thought process involving deduction. to ultimatley sift through the bullshit illogical fallacies and emotional jerkoffs which most people go through when transmitting information to someone else (talking).

The thing is about talking, it is a broadcast system, every ear within range will hear what that person is saying, but you do not necesserially need to agree with it, you can of course always just walk up to the guy and puch him in the face. But we all know that will incur a reaction from whatever happy-do-good cop wishes to run to their rescue.

Edited by Layberinthius, 20 September 2013 - 09:40 AM.


#38 Layberinthius

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:12 AM

And before you go off thinking that this guy must have had a great childhood with a great education, think again, I was homeschooled, and its life experience which has taught me all of this, not education. If I didnt learn any of this at an early age I would have died.

The only reason why I can read or write is because of the JW religion and elementary school, I was home schooled after elementary school but I never learnt anything except for what I learnt by myself. You might notice from my profile and previous posts that I can cover a wide variety of topics, this is because of learning by myself, without the aid of teachers, just me and some books and trying things out in the real world. This IMHO is the best method.

I suspect that the reason behind why most children cannot learn for themselves (need a teacher) is because that they are too 'stuck in the matrix' and are just as deluded as most people are, for example they might hold the belief that cartoons are real and that they should finish their schoolwork early so that they can run home and "get back to reality" and so therefore they are not engaging with reality in their real lives, this is escapeism and I believe can affect most children at a very early age, then carries onto adulthood, where you get people who will defend their lifestyles to the death if need be, because they've believed in it eversince they were little. They therefore do not know of anything else.

I havent sat infront of a teacher since I was 14, and just because I cannot/do not participate in the consumerist culture (have a job) doesnt make me any less of a human being either, or any less smarter than they are.

At least thats what I tell myself each night. :P (another delusion)

Edited by Layberinthius, 20 September 2013 - 10:25 AM.


#39 N.T.M.

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 12:54 AM

And before you go off thinking that this guy must have had a great childhood with a great education, think again, I was homeschooled, and its life experience which has taught me all of this, not education. If I didnt learn any of this at an early age I would have died.

The only reason why I can read or write is because of the JW religion and elementary school, I was home schooled after elementary school but I never learnt anything except for what I learnt by myself. You might notice from my profile and previous posts that I can cover a wide variety of topics, this is because of learning by myself, without the aid of teachers, just me and some books and trying things out in the real world. This IMHO is the best method.

I suspect that the reason behind why most children cannot learn for themselves (need a teacher) is because that they are too 'stuck in the matrix' and are just as deluded as most people are, for example they might hold the belief that cartoons are real and that they should finish their schoolwork early so that they can run home and "get back to reality" and so therefore they are not engaging with reality in their real lives, this is escapeism and I believe can affect most children at a very early age, then carries onto adulthood, where you get people who will defend their lifestyles to the death if need be, because they've believed in it eversince they were little. They therefore do not know of anything else.

I havent sat infront of a teacher since I was 14, and just because I cannot/do not participate in the consumerist culture (have a job) doesnt make me any less of a human being either, or any less smarter than they are.

At least thats what I tell myself each night. :P (another delusion)


I think our backgrounds may be similar in many respects. I agree with a lot of the points you made.

I realize that by virtue of just being human I'm limited in how objectively I can see the world, but I want to make every effort to see it as clearly as a can; I want to minimize that gap between what I perceive and what's objectively real.

#40 Bogomoletz II

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 08:04 PM

“Nothing” doesn't exist.

#41 PWAIN

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 10:47 PM

“Nothing” doesn't exist.

Prove it :)

#42 TheBatman

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 01:38 AM

"Nothing" doesn't exist.

Prove it :)


noth·ing(nPosted ImagethPosted ImagePosted Imageng)
pron.

1. No thing; not anything: The box contained nothing. I've heard nothing about it.

2. No part; no portion: Nothing remains of the old house but the cellar hole.

3. One of no consequence, significance, or interest: The new nonsmoking policy is nothing to me.


n.

1. Something that has no existence.

2. Something that has no quantitative value; zero: a score of two to nothing.

3. One that has no substance or importance; a nonentity: "A nothing is a dreadful thing to hold onto" (Edna O'Brien).




By definition(in the literal sense not figuratively) to truly be "nothing" is NOT possible, you either exist or you don't. That goes for everything else that is composed by one or more atoms. Even particles smaller than atoms exist and they are all considered matter. ALL matter is tangible and in a state of existing and is prone to being acted upon or changed. Never is matter reduced to nothing. Just manipulated or changed.

The force that changes matter is energy. No matter what you do you cannot destroy energy. It can be transferred and converted many different ways but never destroyed.

Although neither of our claims can ever be proven right or wrong, our opinions are conflicting. In that sense, only one of us can be right(it either is possible or it's not).







...And that's my opinion/belief. Bring on the down votes!

#43 Bogomoletz II

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 10:07 PM

By definition(in the literal sense not figuratively) to truly be "nothing" is NOT possible, you either exist or you don't.


Right, and that's why the answer to the question in the title is negative. You cannot be something that by definition doesn't exist. Anyway, thanks for sparing me from the need to explain.

Although neither of our claims can ever be proven right or wrong,


What makes you think that?

#44 TheBatman

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 12:18 AM

What makes you think that?


Well I don't know haha.

#45 Julia36

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:29 PM

As things stand now, when a person, dies, they are gone. Our minds are like the flame of a candle... once it goes out,.. that's it. Physics do not entertain an afterlife for any of us just yet.


not so Quantum Archaeology is discussable (see other thread), and may be viable. Cryonics looks possible.


Posted Image

We cant have much perspective compared to coming machine intelligences





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