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Immortality is stupid

immortality value of life life

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#31 seivtcho

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 05:40 PM

So, what do you loose, when you become "ageless" :)



#32 gatornoot

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 05:47 PM

So, what do you loose, when you become "ageless" :)


Nothing. I don't think anyone wants to be old and decrepit. I'm all for minimizing pain and suffering.

#33 Florin

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 07:09 PM

You can never be truly immortal. You're eventually going to die from something. The probabilities are eventually going to catch up with you. Even if you dig a hole in the ground and lie motionless for centuries, eventually the sun will expand and engulf the earth.

 

Before the sun engulfs the earth, you could move to Mars and dig another hole there. :)

 

But instead of hiding out in a hole, other survival strategies such as mind backup might be a bit more convenient and even safer. Yes, you could still die in a theoretical sense, but the probability of actually dying could be reduced to nearly zero.

 

http://www.longecity...indpost&p=38728


Edited by Florin Clapa, 11 December 2014 - 07:11 PM.


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#34 gatornoot

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 07:32 PM

"Mind backup" is basically creating a copy of your instance, but from your point of view nothing changes. You'll still see the "backup" as a foreign being until your brain dies. The "backup" on the other hand will be just like any other conscious parallel instance (assuming this is ever possible on a computer), it'll just happen to contain the personality and set of memories formerly residing only in your head (as opposed to the blank slate of a baby), and the lack of a biological anatomy. I'm not sure this is necessarily a good thing. I guess it could be if you have a lot to contribute to humanity, but the poor backup will be imprisoned in a silicon cage with no way to escape. Sounds like a nightmarish hell, actually.

In the end no matter what you do, you'll eventually be sucked into a black hole after a few billion years, all the information and order will be lost in the blender, and all energy will be spit back out at the moment of the big bang at time zero. There's no way to escape the infinite cosmic recycler.
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#35 seivtcho

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 07:48 PM

I don't like the mind backup strategy either. However, there are many other solutions except the mind backup to cope with what can happen to the Earth. In the worst case, when the cryonics becomes developed to actually working condition, people may simply use it to go out of the solar system, reach other (exo)planets in space, find or wait long enough to settle somewhere else, or on the Earth again.



#36 gatornoot

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 07:55 PM

I hear the moons of Saturn will be habitable in a few billion years. Me, I just plan to make everyone else happy and help create heaven on earth while I'm here as best I can (or at least not make things worse) so I can also enjoy being other instances going forward.
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#37 shadowhawk

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 08:03 PM

 

 

 

It appears that middle age life expectancy is increasing but what about the upper limit which i have followed for several years.  They seem to die off at about the same rate.  Upper age and health seem to be about the same.  If you are middle age 60-90 health seems to be better.  Middle age diseases seem to be getting solved but very old age seems to be about the same.  :(

 

It is your time to give proves now. The french Clement lived 120 years. Prove, that the such "upper limit" existed always.

 

 

120 or so is the present upper limit now but no one alive is that old.  In fact the average age of those above 110 is going down in recent years.  :(
 

 

 

Where do you get your sources? I smell something rotten in them.

 

 

 

I smell something too.  Why don't you Google it?  There are many sources for the oldest living humans today.  There are less than 80 of those 110-118 years old in the world.  Do you realize what percentage of humanity that is?
 


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#38 seivtcho

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 08:24 PM

The upper limit is the upper limit. Even if one person did it to there, it is still the upper limit. And the highest upper limit came today in our time. This is enough to speculate, that the upper limit rises too.



#39 Florin

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 08:43 PM

"Mind backup" is basically creating a copy of your instance, but from your point of view nothing changes. You'll still see the "backup" as a foreign being until your brain dies. The "backup" on the other hand will be just like any other conscious parallel instance (assuming this is ever possible on a computer), it'll just happen to contain the personality and set of memories formerly residing only in your head (as opposed to the blank slate of a baby), and the lack of a biological anatomy. I'm not sure this is necessarily a good thing. I guess it could be if you have a lot to contribute to humanity, but the poor backup will be imprisoned in a silicon cage with no way to escape. Sounds like a nightmarish hell, actually.

In the end no matter what you do, you'll eventually be sucked into a black hole after a few billion years, all the information and order will be lost in the blender, and all energy will be spit back out at the moment of the big bang at time zero. There's no way to escape the infinite cosmic recycler.

 

Many (maybe most) will not have philosophical or emotional hangups about copies or not having physical bodies. Logically, the "copy" would be me, but I do have to admit that I'm still uneasy about it. As for embodiment, a physical body could be recreated along with the brain from the backup.

 

I don't see why black holes couldn't be avoided.



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#40 gatornoot

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 09:01 PM

I don't understand this fascination with trying to perpetuate your current state of existence indefinitely. Kind of sounds like the absurd ideal of perpetual existence in bliss (or torment) most religions would have you believe your consciousness transitions into.

I actually find it exciting to start fresh every time into a world created by other instances of yourself. Of course, it'll suck when you're an African aids orphan and such, but hopefully once people start realizing this self-evident truth, the amount of pain and suffering they inflict on other instances of themselves will greatly diminish.

#41 shadowhawk

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 09:03 PM

The upper limit is the upper limit. Even if one person did it to there, it is still the upper limit. And the highest upper limit came today in our time. This is enough to speculate, that the upper limit rise
 

There is no limit to speculation, if you need no evidence.  I would guess the upper limit may rise.  But, there are many ways to die.  By the way, even if we doubled our lifespan, in the scheme of things that is nothing.


Edited by shadowhawk, 11 December 2014 - 09:07 PM.


#42 Area-1255

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 11:16 PM

Have you stopped eating your favorite flavor of ice cream just because you have a virtually infinite supply of it? Will you ever put off eating it forever just because you can?

Not everyone with tons of time on their hands is UNproductive, and, I mean this in the most literal sense as possible....

If anything, GENERALIZING is stupid. However, a more plausible argument against immortality, OP, would be these.

 

-It won't stop you from being killed or taken away by a nuclear explosion, being shot (maybe), or being a victim of another catastrophe.

-What then? After you gain "Immortality" - what's the next step? What is there left to do?

 

Additionally,the concept of immortality is already in our reach, you can't make assumptions that someone will be unproductive, because even with immortality - does not guarantee all other things are in place.....if you want to reach a higher dimension...you would be looking at how to combine immortality , with ultimate quality of life - and finding a long-term purpose all at once.

 

My research is just the beginning of doing this, as you combine the biochemical perspective, with the cultural influences that teach us how to truly live, but also the spiritual paradigm that gives us a sense of what is right.

 

Science would not live without spiritual basis, and just as Hitler supposedly used amphetamines, and was supposedly driven by demons - this demonstrates the notion of how spirituality interacts with genes and such...if you believe that.

 

MY POINT IS....you map the conscience to w/e sequence gives you meaning , your biological rhythms must move towards something you feel strongly about - or you will never enjoy life, mortal, or immortal alike! 


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#43 Antonio2014

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 08:01 AM

I'm not convinced by mind backup either. It's like trying to continue living through your sons. It's no real life extension.



#44 Antonio2014

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 08:14 AM

I actually find it exciting to start fresh every time into a world created by other instances of yourself. Of course, it'll suck when you're an African aids orphan and such, but hopefully once people start realizing this self-evident truth, the amount of pain and suffering they inflict on other instances of themselves will greatly diminish.

 

You will not start a fresh, other new people will start. How can you dislike mind backup and like this?

 

As of why immortalism/LE, that's a personal decision. Everyone has its motivation. I personally am not bored of life. There are many things I want to do and see. I want to see the first colonies on Mars. I want to go to Alpha Centauri. I want to see the first alien encounter. I want to work as a teacher, a physicist, a musician, an astronaut, a basketball player, a doctor, a writer, an actor, a politician, ... Also, if some time in the future I want to die, it will be my decision, not the decision of cancer or aging.



#45 gatornoot

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 03:39 PM

And you'll get to do all those things, you'll just happen to be in the brain of another person, with no recollection of being the "you" you are right now.

#46 Florin

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 06:59 PM

I'm not convinced by mind backup either. It's like trying to continue living through your sons. It's no real life extension.

 

This is a matter of perspective; many people would consider this real life extension.


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#47 Florin

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 07:05 PM

And you'll get to do all those things, you'll just happen to be in the brain of another person, with no recollection of being the "you" you are right now.

 

This is also a matter of perspective which closely resembles the philosophy called open individualism which states that everyone is the same person. However, most people including myself value subjectivity and wouldn't consider this to be the most desirable form of immortality.

 

http://en.wikipedia....n_individualism



#48 gatornoot

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 05:52 AM


And you'll get to do all those things, you'll just happen to be in the brain of another person, with no recollection of being the "you" you are right now.


This is also a matter of perspective which closely resembles the philosophy called open individualism which states that everyone is the same person. However, most people including myself value subjectivity and wouldn't consider this to be the most desirable form of immortality.

http://en.wikipedia....n_individualism

That's pretty interesting. I had no idea that was a thing. I just came to this as a logical conclusion after trying to figure out the nature of consciousness.

The way I see it, consciousness is the result of a complex network of electrical impulses. There is no fundamental difference between the electrical energy that results in my feelings of consciousness vs anyone else's. Therefore, my feelings of consciousness also exist in all other people, albeit in a different pattern.

In other words, if there is something to be experienced or felt, it will be so. On the other hand, it is impossible to experience nothingness.

To me this is a self evident truth and whether is it desirable or not has no effect on its inevitability.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no hurry to die, but I'm not afraid of what comes next either. I'm only afraid I won't get to do enough to make things better while I'm here as the current me.

#49 Antonio2014

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 07:54 AM

The way I see it, consciousness is the result of a complex network of electrical impulses. There is no fundamental difference between the electrical energy that results in my feelings of consciousness vs anyone else's. Therefore, my feelings of consciousness also exist in all other people, albeit in a different pattern.

 

The electricity is the same, but the network is different, so the feelings are different.



#50 gatornoot

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 01:37 PM

Yes. Same observer entity, but in a different instance (or "person" as we like to call them). With a different set of feelings, memories, personality, etc

#51 gatornoot

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 01:48 PM

I also like that this is a perfectly balanced equation. Any happiness or pain you dish out you'll get to experience (in exact amount) as the instance on the receiving end.

I always had a problem believing the alternative religious beliefs that promise an infinite immutable state of bliss (or torment) just for believing something right before you die, regardless of whether you're a good or horrible person your whole live and what effect you had on others. I'm sorry, that just makes no sense to me.

#52 Antonio2014

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 06:11 PM

Yes. Same observer entity, but in a different instance (or "person" as we like to call them). With a different set of feelings, memories, personality, etc

 

No, different observer entity.



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#53 Mind

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 10:53 PM

I am going to wave my magic science wand and invoke quantum superposition for brain back-up. Your brain/mind/consciousness could be in a state of superposition with several back-up copies throughout the galaxy. If one physical body gets the axe, you just keep on going as the same person in a different place. Come to think of that, maybe it would make a good sci-fi flick. Good guy trying to hunt down several minds of the "bad" guy and kill them simultaneously.

 

Okay, more realistically, we don't know all there is to know about time, physics, the universe, consciousness, etc... so it is hard to say how long we could live.

 

I know that it is not good marketing to talk about "immortality", but it is a useful term when discussing life extension. It is a boundary condition. We use infinity in math all the time...no one freaks out about the fact that you can never count to infinity. Heck, we even use imaginary numbers...where is the outrage?!


Edited by Mind, 13 December 2014 - 10:55 PM.


#54 Area-1255

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 01:57 AM

I am going to wave my magic science wand and invoke quantum superposition for brain back-up. Your brain/mind/consciousness could be in a state of superposition with several back-up copies throughout the galaxy. If one physical body gets the axe, you just keep on going as the same person in a different place. Come to think of that, maybe it would make a good sci-fi flick. Good guy trying to hunt down several minds of the "bad" guy and kill them simultaneously.

 

Okay, more realistically, we don't know all there is to know about time, physics, the universe, consciousness, etc... so it is hard to say how long we could live.

 

I know that it is not good marketing to talk about "immortality", but it is a useful term when discussing life extension. It is a boundary condition. We use infinity in math all the time...no one freaks out about the fact that you can never count to infinity. Heck, we even use imaginary numbers...where is the outrage?!

Very good point, Mind, and it also isn't too smart for someone to generalize with regard to immortality and morality, trying to fuse the two into the same sentence completely takes away the individuality and concept thereof in respect to each person's lifestyle , movement, and goals - criticism should be minimized in that regard. If one looks upon a star and the star tells them they are immortal, some are going to believe, and then some are going to call them a schizo, and others are going to call them a drug abuser, and yet again, others will call them demon influenced, and yet.....where is perception in all of this? Where is individuality, it's this type of notion that hinders us and yet gives others a false sense of progression!


Edited by Area-1255, 14 December 2014 - 01:58 AM.


#55 Mind

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 11:24 AM

 

I am going to wave my magic science wand and invoke quantum superposition for brain back-up. Your brain/mind/consciousness could be in a state of superposition with several back-up copies throughout the galaxy. If one physical body gets the axe, you just keep on going as the same person in a different place. Come to think of that, maybe it would make a good sci-fi flick. Good guy trying to hunt down several minds of the "bad" guy and kill them simultaneously.

 

Okay, more realistically, we don't know all there is to know about time, physics, the universe, consciousness, etc... so it is hard to say how long we could live.

 

I know that it is not good marketing to talk about "immortality", but it is a useful term when discussing life extension. It is a boundary condition. We use infinity in math all the time...no one freaks out about the fact that you can never count to infinity. Heck, we even use imaginary numbers...where is the outrage?!

Very good point, Mind, and it also isn't too smart for someone to generalize with regard to immortality and morality, trying to fuse the two into the same sentence completely takes away the individuality and concept thereof in respect to each person's lifestyle , movement, and goals - criticism should be minimized in that regard. If one looks upon a star and the star tells them they are immortal, some are going to believe, and then some are going to call them a schizo, and others are going to call them a drug abuser, and yet again, others will call them demon influenced, and yet.....where is perception in all of this? Where is individuality, it's this type of notion that hinders us and yet gives others a false sense of progression!

 

 

"Living indefinitely" is terminology for better marketing.



#56 Antonio2014

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 07:04 PM

Well, I don't think 'immortality' is such a bad term. It captures pretty well the essence of the concept, only that people easily misunderstand it. Now the human race has a finite and fixed maximum lifespan of around 120 years. If aging is completely eliminated, the human race will have an infinite maximum lifespan. That doesn't mean that each human individual will live forever. Nevertheless, immortality describes very well that characteristic of the (future) human race. People simply think that 'immortality' is applied to single individuals, and they are wrong, it must be applied to a population or species.



#57 Florian Xavier

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 09:22 PM

it apply to things in life, but not to life itself lol

 

plus we are already bored at 25, but we don't kill ourselves.


Edited by Florian Xavier, 15 December 2014 - 09:23 PM.


#58 shadowhawk

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 08:08 PM

Super Centarians

 

Those over 110 still alive list.

http://en.wikipedia....percentenarians

 

 



#59 Area-1255

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 12:24 AM

Well, I don't think 'immortality' is such a bad term. It captures pretty well the essence of the concept, only that people easily misunderstand it. Now the human race has a finite and fixed maximum lifespan of around 120 years. If aging is completely eliminated, the human race will have an infinite maximum lifespan. That doesn't mean that each human individual will live forever. Nevertheless, immortality describes very well that characteristic of the (future) human race. People simply think that 'immortality' is applied to single individuals, and they are wrong, it must be applied to a population or species.

Immortality exists, upon those who desire it and actively work on every level for it. It is essential one must adapt to and thwart the stresses of the daily life style, and take on a form of hormonal dominance and optimal growth factors and anti-aging factors.


 

 

I am going to wave my magic science wand and invoke quantum superposition for brain back-up. Your brain/mind/consciousness could be in a state of superposition with several back-up copies throughout the galaxy. If one physical body gets the axe, you just keep on going as the same person in a different place. Come to think of that, maybe it would make a good sci-fi flick. Good guy trying to hunt down several minds of the "bad" guy and kill them simultaneously.

 

Okay, more realistically, we don't know all there is to know about time, physics, the universe, consciousness, etc... so it is hard to say how long we could live.

 

I know that it is not good marketing to talk about "immortality", but it is a useful term when discussing life extension. It is a boundary condition. We use infinity in math all the time...no one freaks out about the fact that you can never count to infinity. Heck, we even use imaginary numbers...where is the outrage?!

Very good point, Mind, and it also isn't too smart for someone to generalize with regard to immortality and morality, trying to fuse the two into the same sentence completely takes away the individuality and concept thereof in respect to each person's lifestyle , movement, and goals - criticism should be minimized in that regard. If one looks upon a star and the star tells them they are immortal, some are going to believe, and then some are going to call them a schizo, and others are going to call them a drug abuser, and yet again, others will call them demon influenced, and yet.....where is perception in all of this? Where is individuality, it's this type of notion that hinders us and yet gives others a false sense of progression!

 

 

"Living indefinitely" is terminology for better marketing.

 

Very good point, although Immortality certainly reaches a certain crowd, and .......certainly looks more glamorous at first glance.



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#60 corb

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 10:18 PM

I'm just gonna say two things:

Immortality or however close it's possible for a biological being and more precisely a human to get to it is a LONG way off. Not something we should be worrying about right now. People won't go crazy or murderous if they can live for a thousand years. That's the typical close minded thing to think up, but I'd say it's the furthest from the reality. Are some people going to commit suicide? Sure. Some. But I don't think most of them. People into extreme life extension to begin will probably have a too positive mindset to give up on life off their own accord.

 

Second thing, about something mentioned in this thread - mind uploading, as far as I'm concerned it should be completely prohibited - this is something I personally believe in very strongly.
Now I can't say when we'll have a computer powerful enough to be capable something like that. Sooner or later. But it should be obvious to everyone who's thought about it a little bit that it's a very scary prospect.
AIs disregarding science fiction, will be mostly harmless. They will not be human (unless someone crazy tries to make them humanlike). Machines are not scary. They are logical. They have no needs. The have no ambitions.

A human mind with the capability of an AI on the other hand - scary. Terrifying. Definitely something that would very much be capable of acting like the typical sc ifi AI and committing atrocities. And there's no point to it. It's just a journal. A diary. One that can talk and "think", but it's still just a record of someone's thoughts and feelings.


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