129 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

No. The stem cells, adult or embryonic are the most promissing strategy to be immortal, according to me.

 

Lol quite possible actually that I didn't dig enough But if I was writing the article, I would count the 65 diseases, that I write about.

[shadowhawk]

Well since I don't think God is against life extinction I guess this topic is not for me.

[The Brain]

When is god turning up ?

Isn't it about time he spoke for himself?

[shadowhawk]

How do you expect Him to turn up?  What do you expect him to say and how?

[Area-1255]

How do you expect Him to turn up?  What do you expect him to say and how?

I don't think he's going to reveal himself until a certain time; depending on your definition of "reveal" and how Biblically ascertained you are.

I believe the human willpower is a manifestation of spiritual integrity - it's not so much about "moving spirits" as it is the PSYCHOLOGY and ENERGY you choose to attract....

 

The dark side of the human mind has been demonstrated not only in Hitler's groupies and himself - but on the smaller level....Richard Ramirez; the night stalker, son of sam and all of these serial killers admittedly having satanic fetishes or having immersed themselves in occult like work opened themselves up the CONSCIENCE DULLING power of negative energy AKA Satan AKA the dark willpower AKA the black wolf of the human will.

 

That's what this is about after all - it's not totally just "Higher Executive" judgement  - or the construction of a Satanic empire - it's about diluting the conscience of humanity through concentrated programming - evil people are everywhere..and good people are everywhere, but few...because people have lost a normal degree of happiness, or have found themselves subject to stringent guidelines and obligated to ADHERE to the pace SET TO THEM, FOR THEM...by those of an organized deviant conscience....and a platform where deviant minds to all get along and hold hands seems to be ever-expanding in high organizations....

 

The CHURCH being one of them...but to generalize and say life extension is or isn't approved is MADNESS.

NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO, OR WHAT GROUP JOIN...there will be kind hearted people, and then there will be DEVIANT, EXTREMIST, AND POWER SEEKING GREEDY MINDS.

 

The biggest question lies in how we DEFINE the moral or objective limit on such behavior, and by what parameter we SET as a break-off to the evenly distributed graciousness or by which parameter to we now define what is FAIR, LOGICAL , OR MORAL.

 

~Jay 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Stems cells will not be enough, after all. The stem cells can make only simple tissues and simple organs, that can do their job without the need of advanced microscopical structure and without advanced blood supply system built in them. And the most important organs are exactly that advanced, and need their microscopic structure in order to operate correctly, and need a complex blood vessels system inside them in order to survive. Relying only to adult stem cells we end up without the ability of creating advanced important organs. Adult stem cells technologies can make skin(prone of lack of blood, capable to feed from blood transfused from the underlying tissues long enough to be grafted successfully and taking its blood supply later from small blood vessels grown from the tissues under it) or a wind pipe(cartilage and mucosa, both prone of blood shortage), or a blood vessel (taking the needed nutrients and oxygen directly from the blood stream), or whatever bone marrow blood cells, but to be immortal, we will need entire organs, that are needed for us to be alive, developed in full functionality, with the micro-structure and much more adequate blood supply. E.g, we will need entire lungs, hearts, kidneys, that will be able to receive enough blood in and out in order both to do their function perfectly, and to feed themselves successfully. So far this can't happen with the current adult or embryonic stem cells technologies.

It seems, that we will need the therapeutic cloning in order to get the needed organs. And here comes again the church and the such called moral. We can't clone our self an embryo, because cloning is a very bad heresy and show a high absence of moral, not mentioning, that the poor cloned embryo after being grown for 2-3 months, when the abortion is normally allowed, will be killed in order to take its little organs, grow them and transplant them back in us.

Now there has to be discovered another ways, that to find a way around the so immoral arguments for not dying, and to be able to grow functional organs morally and religiously acceptably, e.g. to go around the anti-cloning arguments. And, lets hope, that they will come soon, because the 3D printing in the next 20-30 years will not print the microscopic acines of the lungs, and the tiny blood vessels around the acines, that actually get the oxygen from the air for you not to die, and once a technology to do advanced organs comes true, it will be so expensive, that will be needed to pass another 30-40 years in order for you to use it, and if you are 30 years old today, and there is no other stopping factor for these technologies to postpone them for another 30-40 years, when you become 100 years old, if, of course you manage to survive that long, because with the growth of the average life span of the human, the majority of you won't, you will be able to transplant a new advanced organ, and save your life. And you will be very moral, because the immoral technology can be developed in 10 years, become inexpensive for 30-40 years, and you can use it when you become 70 or 80 years old.

[shadowhawk]

You are right, stem cells will not be enough.  They die also, just like us all.

Edited by shadowhawk, 10 February 2015 - 08:20 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I was pointing another problem - the only way to get genetically identical to us organs, with advanced structure is cloning.

[shadowhawk]

Same thing, clones die.  I thought you were for life?

[Danail Bulgaria]

We will need genetically identicle advanced spare organs at some point. Do you have some idea how we can get them?

[shadowhawk]

Kill clones?

[Danail Bulgaria]

Can be used - as long as you define clones as several months old embryos, that have no consciousness yet, and are more like groups of cells.

[smccomas01]

Some one correct me if I was wrong, would not a clone have at least the same genetic problems as the original host? Not to mention cloning technology is not nearly as advanced as what you would think. Took them 276 tries before they were able to clone dolly, right now cloning is not looking so good. Dont blame Christians for that it would seem to be a very complex process.   

[Danail Bulgaria]

You can be correct, @smccoomas01 but they are stopping the progress into this direction.

 

P.S. the need of organs is large today. And the best organs for transplant are the ones, that have the same genetics as yours.

Edited by seivtcho, 10 February 2015 - 11:48 PM.

[Multivitz]

No, all they do is get groups of people to support the wrong direction of thought, pushing humanity away from the real realisation I have had, and others share to a certain degree, of eternal life here on the material plane. Immortality is possible already, shame most people who I talk to get cognative dissonance or scared of looking a fool.               Its the environmental hazards like polution that are the real life shorteners. Religion is in us all, we can only act from one moment to the next, thats our religion, if you need help from a religious book or church fine, I just hope people see themselves in other people. Bio fields is where its at, different resolutions of fields have different aspects over our form, some over DNA! Intuition is part of the field, Rupert Sheldrake is a respectable scientist and urges others to do research whilst mainstream fools try to put people off, check out his TEDTalk ban on youtube and the after interview where he talks about Wiki!

Edited by Multivitz, 11 February 2015 - 01:41 AM.

[shadowhawk]

You can be correct, @smccoomas01 but they are stopping the progress into this direction.

 

P.S. the need of organs is large today. And the best organs for transplant are the ones, that have the same genetics as yours.

 

Why not kill your own children even if not a  clone?

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

For many reasons, @shadowhawk

 

Developed children into babies are conscious, and killing them is a murder. The same is for a clone, developed into baby. The cloned embryos, however, until a certain age are nothing more than cells, and are completely unconscios, don't have the desire to live, would not exist anyway, and their existence is as valuable, as the existence of the same volume of your own skin cells.

[shadowhawk]

How do you know an embryo is not conscious?  When does human life begin?  If there are no body parts how can you use them?

[Danail Bulgaria]

The science (embryology, gynecology, pediatrics) today thinks, that until the third month the embryo doesn't have a working brain, cappable of consciousness. This is why the abortion until the third month is allowed in the medicine today, at least in many countries, including mine.

 

When the human life begins? Well, biologically when the zygote is formed, but consciousness is formed further in time. Before the consciousness, the life is cells. Your skin cells also are alive, but are not conscious. Do you make a sin if you require to sacrifice them for medical reasons? Such as operating skin cancer? When you resect a skin cancer, you kill not only the cancer cells, but completely inocent skin cells too. Is this a sin? Shall we ban cancer operations?

 

In the 3 month embryo the body parts are already shaped, even though some of them do not work. Taking a body part, containing the organ, and growing it is an option. How? Well, as far as I know, the technology is not invented yet, but it can happen. Organs can be grown in animals soon. Japan tries to do somethin simmilar.

http://www.telegraph...hin-a-year.html

Why not to be tried an organ growth in a genetically modified animal, that will not reject it?

[shadowhawk]

Does life or consciousness make a human.  If we can't measure consciousness are we no longer human.  No matter what you say, it is not human life for example,, that is your philosophical and personal perspective you are imposing on the fetus so you can kill it for your own reasons.  What makes that right?  Do others get to do the same thing with you and harvest your body based on the same criteria? 

[Danail Bulgaria]

What makes a human according to you? I personally think, that in biological terms everythig, having a human DNA is a human, or at least a part of a human. The human is the body and the workings of the brain.

 

If we can't measure consciousness will we be considered human beings anymore? I don't know. According to the reanimators (the specialists in the medical speciality anesthesiology and reanimation) today, if the brain doesn't work anymore, the human is death.

The consciousness is the work of the brain. The working of the brain can be detected with an electroencephalograph. So, we can detect if there is consciousness or not.

if we can't detect permanently the workings of the brain anymore, we also can't detect permanently the consciousness anymore.

So, if the brain doesn't work, we have also absence of consciousness.

In this cases the medicals definitely will pronounce you death. This may actually mean, that if we can't measure consciousness we are not human anymore.

 

Yes, that is my philosophical and personal perspective, that I am imposing on the fetus (my fetus, genetically identical to me, created from my own cells to be more precise), and I can actually kill it for my own reason of not dying. But this perspective is not formed just like that by myself in my small human brain. It is a result of aggregating a lot of knowledge, and a lot of reading of different medical books, genetics, stem cells, even biology and clonning. It makes me think everything, that I wrote so far. What your philosophical perspective is based on?

 

Once the technology gets created, people will not need to harvest mine (or yours) body for organs for transplantation, as the situation today is (there are lists of many people waiting for years for a suitable donor organ, and many of them even die while waiting. Those, who have the balls and the money purchase illegal organs, e.g. harvest organs from other alive and conscious bodies, just as you said. The rest either die while waiting, or harvest the organs from death people). Instead of doing that, the people will harvest their own cells, will make their own clonned embryos, and will take organs from these cloned embryos. And as a result, they will get an organ, that is non - rejectable - a very serious advantage in medical terms.

[serp777]

Why would you use the bible for any moral or ethical decisions? If you use it, without being accused of picking and choosing, you have to be willing to accept these as well:

 

 

Leviticus 20:13 ESV / 705 helpful votes

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

 

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

 

Kill Witches

    You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

 

Laws of Rape   (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

 

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

 

Kill False Prophets

    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.   (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

 

    The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath.  He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies!  The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished.  He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm.  The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet.  At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt.  In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed.  Who can stand before his fierce anger?  Who can survive his burning fury?  His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence.  The LORD is good.  When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge.  And he knows everyone who trusts in him.  But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood.  He pursues his foes into the darkness of night.   (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

 

And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.  "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."  (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

 

[shadowhawk]

I DON'T want to go off topic,  Human life begins at conception.  If not then, when?

It ends in death,

Edited by shadowhawk, 19 February 2015 - 01:29 AM.

[serp777]

I DON'T want to go off topic,  Human life begins at conception.  If not then, when?

It ends in death,

 

The fallacy is saying that the argument is about where human life begins. its where consciousness begins that matters. When someone experiences brain death you don't keep them in hospitals taking up valuable space for living people and draining the bank account of the people who have to pay for life support--their lives aren't valuable anymore once irreversible brain death has occurred. Consciousness is what makes the human more than the cells of which he/she is constructed.

[shadowhawk]

Are you saying any time a person lacks consciousness they may have their body parts harvested?  And when does consciousness begin?  A early child has not experienced brain death.  We do not kill people who have experienced brain death.  Who made up the rule you are not human if unconscious.  Isn't this a value judgement not based upon any evidence?

[serp777]

Are you saying any time a person lacks consciousness they may have their body parts harvested?  And when does consciousness begin?  A early child has not experienced brain death.  We do not kill people who have experienced brain death.  Who made up the rule you are not human if unconscious.  Isn't this a value judgement not based upon any evidence?

 

No that's not what im saying. When a person cannot have consciousness any more or has not had any consciousness to begin with, then body organs to save the lives of others would be acceptable. Consciousness is necessary to be able to make decisions, think, or do anything. The family then is given powers of decisions over that person when they are no longer capable of deciding. If that person has no family then the doctor gains that power. Almost always people who experience brain death are taken off life support. This is standard medical ethics. What value would there be in keeping someone's body alive when their mind is no longer there?

 

"And when does consciousness begin?"

Impossible to determine exactly. its different for every person. it depends on genetics and the environment. You generally take the lower bound of where neurologists estimate it to begin so that you are least likely to make a mistake of ending an existing consciousness. That's where abortion age limits are placed. This is a bad question because its a lot like asking when a teenager becomes and adult or a child becomes a teenager. We certainly know a bundle of cells does not have consciousness at least. A 1 month old fetus does not have a substantial nervous system either.  It barely has the development of the brain stem.

 

And Would you let people who need organs die for your value judgment? That's not based on any evidence

 

"Who made up the rule you are not human if unconscious."

Nobody did. Nobody is saying that. I am saying that what makes the life valuable is consciousness and the mind. Ask any family that has a person with alzheimers if they are the same as they were before in terms of the person they knew. Ask any family who has a son or daughter with permanent brain death and ask them if they are just as valuable with their consciousness or without. Ask the boards of every medical ethics committee if brain dead people should be put on permanent life support just because they have human cells.

[shadowhawk]

We don't kill people just because they aren't conscious.  Especially if there is hope of conscious life.  With a fetus there is no reason to take their life, they are not in any way dead.  Everything is there and they are growing like any child.

[Danail Bulgaria]

@shadowalk, you are correct until some point. in medical terms things are not so easy. The absence of consciousness can be temporary uncousciousness, coma, persistent vegetative state, brain death, clinical death, and biological death.

 

Organs are being harvest only from people in brain death or in biological death.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Brain_death

 

The legal medicine today do not harvest organs from people in all types of unconsciousness.

 

The CLONED ebryo, however is a chance to live, that would not exist anyway.

[serp777]

We don't kill people just because they aren't conscious.  Especially if there is hope of conscious life.  With a fetus there is no reason to take their life, they are not in any way dead.  Everything is there and they are growing like any child.

 

The stage of the fetus doesnt occur till approximately 9 weeks. That's how long it takes for anything resembling a complicated neural system to form. You didn't understand the point I was making. A fetus is not an embryo and so an embryo isn't more special than any other cell configuration.

[shadowhawk]

Actually a complicated system starts immediately.  Human life goes through many stages from conception to old age.  Change is not what makes  us human.  It is your subjective value system that is being expressed here, not the facts.