129 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

@shadowhawk, I noticed, that you keep not answering some of the questions asked to you.

 

You didn't answer for example is in your ideology the cloning allowed, if the clone is alive - each wasted cell is a wasted clone, and you are for not wasting human life, right? So each cell has the chance to become a thinking human just like the ebmryo. Will in your ideology stream everybodies cells into clones? If no, then why you are going against your ideals? Please, answer.

[shadowhawk]

Is the clone a live human being?  It has nothing to do with ideology.  If so I am for life and would not cut it up as you want to do so you can steal its body for your own selfish ends.  You are the idealist devaluing human life.  However, I am not against some procedures where you use your own cells, such as stem cells, in medicine.  That is far different than a clone.  Why are you valuing life not your own so cheaply?

[Danail Bulgaria]

Shall I understand, that if the clone is an alive and will become a human being, you will let it live So, you are for cloning. That is some sort of progress lol.

 

How about if a cloned ebmryo, or a fetus stops developing or dies without you being involved? Can you harvest its body parts? It should not be considered alive anymore.

[shadowhawk]

We have long given our organs to others but that is our choice.  But we do not rob living others of their body parts.  You would do better to look to your own stem cells.  There is a lot of interesting development here.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The development there is really interesting, but can't provide us the most important organs.

[shadowhawk]

But they belong to someone else and that raises huge ethical issues.  There is no more reason to let them harvest your organs than for you to take theirs. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Very few people will change their opinion to match yours, unless there appears a new technology that to provide the organs via another way.

[shadowhawk]

No I think yours is the minority view.  No one has the right to take someone else body parts without permission.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The illegal body parts trade often happens with the permission of the one, who is giving them. The donors receive money for that. Shall I understand, that you accept the illegal organs trade? lol.

 

Plus the cloned embryo would not exist anyway. What chance of becomming a human you are talking about, if such a chance does not exist anyway.

[shadowhawk]

No I do not accept the illegal organs trade.

 

Here is what happens during the first month of human life.

 

Fertilisation

Every human being begins life as a single cell, formed when father's sperm fertilises mother's egg. Fertilisation normally takes place in the mother's Fallopian tube, which connects the uterus (womb) with the ovary. The uterus is the size and shape of a large pear: it is made of muscle and it stretches to allow the baby's growth throughout the months of pregnancy.

A woman ordinarily has two tubes and two ovaries, one at each side of her uterus. Every month one of the ovaries in turn releases an egg (ovum) which passes slowly along the tube towards the womb cavityHybg1.gif
If the egg is not fertilised within 12 hours or so of being released, it dies; it cannot develop further. But if the woman has sexual intercourse during the days of her monthly cycle just before or at the time when an egg has been released from the ovary, then many sperm cells released by her partner may travel up to the Fallopian tube and one may fertilise the egg. When fertilisation is completed and the nuclei of egg and sperm have combined, a new being comes into existence and is capable of further development. Because the parents are human - belonging to the species Homo sapiens - the new being is also human. Fertilisation (by which we mean conception) marks the beginning of the human lifespan.

A consultant specialising in the care of pregnant women writes: "Life does not begin with birth. When born, we are already nine months old... we have a responsibility to learn how to study the life in utero, and how to care for it"

Heredity

The cells of living beings contain DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid), the substance in the nucleus that enable cells to reproduce and transmit characteristics from generation to generation. When cells divide, the DNA takes the form of chromosomes - the units carrying the genes that pass hereditary features from parents to offspring. Different species have varying numbers of chromosomes per cell: for example, a mouse has 40 while a cat has 38. Human body cells normally contain 46 distinctively human chromosomes. But an egg and a sperm cell contain only 23 chromosomes each, to allow for their adding together at fertilisation: sperm and ovum are termed gametes (from a Greek word for "marriage partners"). When they "marry" they make one completely new cell - the human embryo, zygote or conceptus - with 46 chromosomes carrying a fresh, unique combination of genes. At fertilisation this human embryo is about 0.1mm in diameter. Since characteristics come from both parents the zygote is never the same as, or part of, the mother, but is a genetically distinct individual. The colouring of hair, skin and eyes, the sex of the new human being, and factors influencing height and build, are determined at fertilisation by information on the DNA.
Gender

A baby's sex is determined at fertilisation. A chromosome from the father's sperm determines whether the child is male or female. If an X chromosome is present the baby is a girl; if a Y chromosome is carried by the sperm instead, the baby is a boy.

 

Twins

Occasionally two eggs are released by the ovary and fertilised. This results in fraternal twins who are different in appearance and may be of different sexes because their genes form from two eggs and two sperm cells.

Rarely, one embryo splits into two and both cells develop separately, as identical twins, similar in appearance.

"They have the same genetic make-up and apparently the whole genetic message is the same in both of them. Nevertheless, they are obviously different human beings."

Blueprint, builder and house

The embryo is not simply a set of instructions for making a new human being, like a blueprint for building a house. A blueprint is inert and cannot carry out instructions, but the embryo is active and begins work at once. A house needs builders, carpenters, electricians and plumbers to complete it; but the embryo has the ability to grow spontaneously, moving on to other phases of development and constructing the skeleton, flesh, nerve connections and a waste disposal system of the human body. After a house is built, a blueprint remains separate; but the embryo - already an essential human by virtue of the genes - is blueprint, builder and "house" together.

Implantation

Hybg2.gifAfter fertilisation the single cell splits into two, then the two cells double to four, four to eight, eight to sixteen and so on. Because the cell cluster looks superficially like a berry it is called the morula (Latin for "mulberry"), but the new life is always biologically human (species Homo sapiens).

 

The journey along the Fallopian tube continues slowly for about four days. Growth increases. By the time the womb cavity is reached, the cell cluster becomes hollow and fluid-filled, and is referred to as the blastocyst. However, this is not an inert clump of cells but a busily developing human individual: differentiation (organisation into different parts and functions) is already taking place. Meanwhile the uterus is forming a spongy lining within which the embryo will implant. To achieve this the embryo burrows into the wall of the womb and is covered over by the lining of the womb. This begins 6 days after fertilisation and is completed within the next 7 days.

If fertilisation has not taken place, the lining of the uterus comes away at the end of the monthly cycle as the woman's menstrual period. But once implantation occurs, the embryo sends out a hormonal signal which prevents the mother's period. This is usually her first indication of pregnancy.

Estimating length of pregnancy

Generally a woman does not know the exact date of her baby's conception. When she misses a period she may take a pregnancy test; she should see a doctor promptly to obtain professional care for herself and her child. The doctor takes the date of the first day of the mother's last menstrual period as the starting-point for a 40-week pregnancy. This gives the baby's gestational age. However since fertilisation only occurs when the ovum is released from the ovary, some two weeks from the beginning of the last period, the baby's actual (conceptional) age is also two weeks less. Full-time delivery occurs 38 weeks after fertilisation, but 40 weeks after the mother's last menstrual period. (In this booklet all developments of the embryo and foetus are dated from the time of conception, or fertilisation unless stated otherwise.)

Protection and life support

During and after implantation the embryo develops a protective, fluid-filled capsule which surrounds and cushions the developing body to prevent injury. Embryo and fluid are enclosed in two membranes, an inner amnion and an outer chorion. The chorion is covered in rootlike tufts, some of which form the early placenta - an organ made by the baby and the mother which transfers nutrients from the mother's bloodstream and removes waste products from the child's, though mother's and baby's circulatory systems remain separate. The placenta also produces hormones to maintain the pregnancy. In the ninth month it will alter the mother's hormonal balance and triggers off the birth process - although we are still unsure what causes labour to begin.

The baby is connected to the placenta by the umbilical cord, the lifeline channelling nourishment in and taking wastes out, which will be cut close to the baby's abdomen at birth and will leave the mark of the navel. During pregnancy the baby obtains oxygen from the mother's blood via cord and placenta, so does not drown in the surrounding fluid.

Body development

By 25 days from fertilisation the body is developing. Head and trunk appear and tiny arm buds begin to form, followed by leg buds. The early embryo seems to have a "tail", but this is really a protective covering for the spinal cord. Because the central nervous system (brain. spine and spinal cord) is so important, governing sensory and motor functions, the embryo's body is designed for rapid growth of head and back.

By 21 to 25 days the baby's heart is beating. Other internal organs are present in simple form and functioning as they grow. Early facial features appear. The doctor who performed the first-ever blood transfusion to an unborn baby has described the embryo at the end of the first month from fertilisation

"By 30 days, just two weeks past mother's first missed period, the baby - one quarter of an inch long - has a brain of unmistakable human proportions, eyes, ears, mouth, kidneys, liver, an umbilical cord and a heart pumping blood he has made himself."





 

[Danail Bulgaria]

I understood your argument for not killing the embryo, only because it is alive, no matter that its brain is not functioning, and no matter of the fact, that the cloned for organs embryo would not exist anyway.

 

What I am asking you now is when you have to choose between several bad things which one would you choose? 

[shadowhawk]

Between killing you or someone else?  I don't have to make that evil choice so I won't.  Beside, I think you want to justify killing someone else.

[Danail Bulgaria]

No lol I want to justify the cloning of organs.

[shadowhawk]

Women are defined as not fully human in Islam, Blacks have been defined as not humans.  Jews were defined as not human.  Mentally Ill have been defined as less than human.  I could go on showing where names such as clone have been used to dehumanize life.  Just make up a name which defines away reality.  No what you are doing is destroying a human life and you claim to be for life.

[serp777]

Actually a complicated system starts immediately.  Human life goes through many stages from conception to old age.  Change is not what makes  us human.  It is your subjective value system that is being expressed here, not the facts.

 

Actually no it doesn't. If you mean 1/1*10^15 as complex as a fetus that is 7 months of age then yes. You are expressing a subjective opinion, and I am expressing a neurological basis for my argument. Again you would let a brain dead human go off life support so your conception and value of what should live is entirely inconsistent.
 

We have long given our organs to others but that is our choice.  But we do not rob living others of their body parts.  You would do better to look to your own stem cells.  There is a lot of interesting development here.

 

If the fetus wont develop into a human anyways then why wouldn't we use it to save other people? You don't value human life if you're not willing to save people when there's no loss.

Women are defined as not fully human in Islam, Blacks have been defined as not humans.  Jews were defined as not human.  Mentally Ill have been defined as less than human.  I could go on showing where names such as clone have been used to dehumanize life.  Just make up a name which defines away reality.  No what you are doing is destroying a human life and you claim to be for life.

 

You're destroying human life by denying those who need organs a very useful technology where the fetus doesn't have any sophisticated kind of neurological system and wont develop into a human anyways. Like in the case of abortion for instance.
 

[shadowhawk]

The fetus is a human life, no different than any other.  I have already shown from the very first it is already fully genetically there and undergoing tremendous change which continues to death.  The only thing that will stop this human is death.  I am against destroying humans by killing them for the supposed selfish benefits of others.

[serp777]

The fetus is a human life, no different than any other.  I have already shown from the very first it is already fully genetically there and undergoing tremendous change which continues to death.  The only thing that will stop this human is death.  I am against destroying humans by killing them for the supposed selfish benefits of others.

 

actually it is different by definition. Why do you think its called a fetus? Tremendous change doesn't matter. What matters is the brain according to all neuroscience. Without a functioning brain, the person might as well be dead because the mind is what makes the human experience. You're impossing your subjective and basless beliefs to deny life to those that needs organ transplants. Now saving hundreds of thousands of lives is selfish apparently. What ignorance. You're selfish because you think your ethical beliefs justify the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

Edited by serp777, 27 February 2015 - 11:25 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Because it is a stage of human life like a baby or child or teen or adult or senior citizen.  It is always human.

[Danail Bulgaria]

@shadowhawk, you don't want cloning for organs, right? Think out an alternative. Find out another way for us to have genetically identical to ourselves organs.

[smccomas01]

Are we talking "cloning of organs" or "cloning of humans" to harvest organs? The reason I ask is we have already made significant progress in the area cloning organs. There is also some facinating research on Lin28A. Apparently it is possible to regrow digits that is of some particular interest to me I have a lot of brothers that have lost limbs to IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

I mean cloning of organs. I didn't met a progress of the organs cloning in people. No advanced cloned organ transplanted so far (as far as I know). If you know about an article or a case of successful CLONED organ transplanted in a HUMAN, not something, that is giving hope for the future, nor something transplanted to animal, et. make a topic about it. Do you know something like that? A cloned kidney, a cloned lungs, or a cloned heart transplanted to some one?

[smccomas01]

Well.... There was some work done by Dr. Paolo Macchiarini however he is under investigation now :( 

 

There has been some success's Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center (Ironic based on the topic) 

 

http://www.nbcnews.c...disorder-n77136

 

 

[serp777]

Are we talking "cloning of organs" or "cloning of humans" to harvest organs? The reason I ask is we have already made significant progress in the area cloning organs. There is also some facinating research on Lin28A. Apparently it is possible to regrow digits that is of some particular interest to me I have a lot of brothers that have lost limbs to IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

 

Something I thought of is using a genetic mutations that makes it so a human only grows the smallest portion of their brain stem, which can only control their heart beat and bloop pressure essentially. There's a genetic disease for having no brain basically. if this could be replicated somehow, you could harvest organs without the ethical considerations of harming another human consciousness. Cloning humans without brains would be the solution.

Because it is a stage of human life like a baby or child or teen or adult or senior citizen.  It is always human.

 

it is a stage of human life without a brain. The brain makes consciousness and consciousness is what defines the human experience. Without a brain you might as well be dead. This is based on neurology and your point of view is based on subjective, inefficient ethics which would prevent hundreds of thousands for receiving organs essential to live.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Well.... There was some work done by Dr. Paolo Macchiarini however he is under investigation now :( 

 

There has been some success's Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center (Ironic based on the topic) 

 

http://www.nbcnews.c...disorder-n77136

 

That is an interesting find about the vaginas. As far as I understood it, this is not actually a cloned organ, but an organ, made from stem cells, grown on a scafold.

 

We would need the cloning to make organs, that require a complex microscopic structure, or a complex micro-circulation. Both of these can't be made, at least at this moment, via stem cells grown on scafolds, or by 3d printing.

 

You may add your finding in my topic, if you like:
http://www.longecity...used-on-people/

I will give you a positive feedback.

 

You may also share what you know about the works of Dr. Paolo Macchiarini.

Edited by seivtcho, 28 February 2015 - 01:59 PM.

[smccomas01]

Yep pretty cool stuff there is also this 

 

On Dr. Macchiarini he had done some work with artificial trachea's however it appears that some of his claims were not accurate.

 

http://retractionwat...lo-macchiarini/

 

 

[smccomas01]

Doing further reading on Dr. Macchiarini, he may be getting the shaft.

 

http://www.sciencepl...driven-justice/

 

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

These things are interesting, but better post them in the topic, where they will sit the best. We never know what can be done, if we all in this forum manage to collect our knowledge on a topic. What better topic than those, which are talking about usage of the technologies on people.

 

P.S. They judge the Italian professor for that he has been taking money. They don't charge him for fraud in his researches.

Edited by seivtcho, 28 February 2015 - 03:06 PM.

[shadowhawk]

I am not against healing or growing new body parts using methods that do not destroy another  person.  They can even grow new hair using stem cells for example.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The hair is nothing. You will not die from baldness. We will need hearts, lungs, kidneys, brain regeneration methods.

 

P.S. Post what you know about the stem cells TRIED ON PEOPLE in the topic, I started.

Edited by seivtcho, 03 March 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[shadowhawk]

I know a lot about stem cells, to much to post here.  Want to know of a Catholic company that is doing stem cell research?