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Let's cure social anxiety. 23andme customers, join in!

social anxiety

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#1 littlePawn

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 02:14 AM


Science has, unfortunately failed us. One useless research paper after another, with a replication rate less than 20% showing how a rat responds to substance X, and thousands of other such studies, with very few scientists even interested if their rat studies can even be replicated, is the reason there won't ever be a mainstream cure. The only thing that will cure this is a community of sufferers.

 

I'm thinking of creating a database where everyone with social anxiety can compare SNP's with specific genes of interest. For instance, MTHFR has received a lot of attention in SA, but a gene such as DDC has not. There are potentially many thousands of genes that may be related to SA. If enough of us are willing to share specific polymorphisms for genes of interest we identify, then as a group we should be able to correlate specific genes with our condition outside that of the general population. Not should... we will.

 

If you're interested, and have had your genome sequenced at 23andme or a similar service that gives you your snps, reply here or PM your skype and let's get this idea rolling.


Edited by littlePawn, 26 July 2015 - 02:14 AM.

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#2 Duchykins

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 03:45 PM

Why would you open a post like this with a BS line like "science has failed us"?  What do you think genotyping and sequencing are?

 

In any case, I have about another month to wait for me 23andme results.  I'm impatient.   :dry:   I'm willing to participate in this, though.


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#3 littlePawn

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 01:36 AM

I guess it's a realisation that the majority of those pubmed articles fail replication,and there's very little being done about that. Hard for us to base our knowledge off new research when replication isn't taken seriously.

 

Anyway sounds good! Should be interesting to see if we have some mutations in common outside the general population, and if enough other people do too.


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#4 Duchykins

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 02:56 AM

I guess it's a realisation that the majority of those pubmed articles fail replication,and there's very little being done about that. Hard for us to base our knowledge off new research when replication isn't taken seriously.

 

Anyway sounds good! Should be interesting to see if we have some mutations in common outside the general population, and if enough other people do too.

 

Indexing on PubMed (or any public peer-reviewed paper database) doesn't mean a study came from a legit journal.  Especially the open-access ones (actually these are the ones that have the most bullshit precisely because they are open-access).  Not everything from open-access is bad science, but these are the ones that you have to be especially careful with.  Junk journals, predatory journals are all over the place now because of ease of publishing on the internet.  PubMed is more vulnerable to this kind of crap because it is a biomedical paper database (you would not tend to see as much nonsense from physics or math, for example).

 

It's so ubiquitous now that we have need for lists of bad or questionable publishers and journals (two different things) like this:  

 

http://scholarlyoa.c...ublishers-2015/

http://scholarlyoa.c...idual-journals/

 

https://en.wikipedia...cess_publishing

https://en.wikipedia...i/Jeffrey_Beall

 

 

Legit scientists victimized by bad publishers and quack scientists:

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

 

 

Fake papers submitted to hundreds of journals to test the rigorousness of their reviewing process, a whopping 157 accepted the papers for publishing, 98 journals rejected it, about 60% did no real reviewing at all (editors' failing since they have final say): 

 

https://en.wikipedia...of_Peer_Review?

http://www.sciencema...42/6154/60.long

 

 

Elsevier, a large publisher that has both  good and bad journals, and definite shenanigans under its belt (a lot of papers cited on LongeCity come from journals via this publisher):

 

https://en.wikipedia...d_controversies

 

 

That being said, it's long been my habit to check up on the journal of any paper in cited in health-related matters.  More often than not when it's about supplements, diet, or something lifestyle along those lines, the either the whole journal turns out to be bunk, or the paper has clear issues within it.

 

My favorite example: physics paper from Cornell University Library that upset a lot of Christians because they had trouble trying to poke holes in it.  It was a good while before they noticed the publication date.

 

Recent example from LongeCity, beaucoup medical woo-woo science found on PubMed:  http://www.longecity...c-megadosingiv/

 

Lastly, these public databases do not have the same indices as the ones that major institutions (like universities, associations, government) prefer to use for research.  Eg, EBSCOhost puts PubMed to shame, and you would not find the same papers in an EBSCOhost search that you would find in a PubMed search (or a Cornell search; that physics paper doesn't come up).


Edited by Duchykins, 27 July 2015 - 03:16 AM.

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#5 Duchykins

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 03:00 AM

What I'm trying to say is that science, when it's actually done, does not fail us.  It consistently works.  But because the method is a human construct, it is imperfect and therefore vulnerable to people with unethical intentions.


Vigilance.


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#6 littlePawn

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 03:53 AM

These are troubling times indeed. The matter is made worse with all these pseudo-journals and a general trend of poor statistical analysis. But also even in prestigious journals, failed replication is a big issue in all the biological sciences. Even landmark studies, held in high esteem within a profession, are failing replication when it comes time to implement some of their finding. These are in elsevier journals and other top journals. Neuroscience especially has a low rate of replication.

 

You're absolutely right regarding science, the scientific method itself is the most beautiful discovery in methodology to have ever existed in my opinion. But where did everything go wrong where it's no longer applied? It seems even academics, and researchers think that "science" is how much domain-specific knowledge one knows, or how good one is at a particular lab methodology. None of that is science. Science is a process, of replication, hypothesis testing, failability. And yet where has replication gone? It's not taken seriously, it's given no prestige, and it's not even done most of the time. I cannot help but observe that, even with record funding in science, and more scientists than ever, that science itself is a dying methodology. Unless groups are formed of amateur independent scientists that are interested in science for the sake of discovery, not for career advancement or funding, then I cannot help but see this problem getting worse. A lot of the foundational science we have now is based off gentleman scientists from the pre 20th century discoveries. This " industrial professionalization of science is a rather new thing, and it my opinion is killing real science.

 

http://journals.plos...al.pmed.0020124

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0005738

http://www.nature.co...nmeth.3288.html

http://www.nature.co...ll/483531a.html

http://www.sciencedi...010945215000775

 

http://www.jove.com/...at-is-happening

http://www.reuters.c...E82R12P20120328

 

 


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#7 Duchykins

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 04:56 AM

I agree.  

 

It's even worse than predatory practices.  When profit doesn't appear to be a motive (fraudulent science), we see voodoo science: pathological science, junk science, pseudoscience.  And cargo cult science.  We actually have to have different terms for different kinds of "wtf science"!

 

I think a lot of it has to do with Americans' relatively strong propensity for anti-intellectualism, suspicion of major institutions, this nonsense that everybody's opinion is equally valid and cannot be challenged AND the toxic belief that the scientific method should be democratic so that it's not "suppressing" Teh TruthTM.   I know you can find it in other countries, I'm not trying to say otherwise, but America is ground-zero for this crap and we have been since the 1950s and Roswell.  Anti-vax, creationism, climate denial, alternative medicine, a bunch of other shit politicians and media have either taken advantage of or created  ... we are both one of the largest producers and consumers of bad science in the world, after India and China.

 

The public has been having a strong influence on what's being "studied," and published, for a variety of reasons.


Edited by Duchykins, 27 July 2015 - 04:57 AM.

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#8 Duchykins

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 05:07 AM

This shit bugs me because I'm working towards a degree in evolutionary biology and have always been a nerd, so my first introduction to junk science was, of course, creationism, nearly 15 years ago.  ID creationism and its plethora of fake and junk journals especially.  Now I seem to see it in almost every subject.


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#9 littlePawn

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 07:56 AM

Wow, you sound just like me, seeing this in every subject.

 

However, I used to be a staunch creationist for the first 25 years of my life. I "knew" the evidence existed for god, because it was repeated constantly to me how much of it there was. So I tried to find just a single piece of objective evidence for god's existence, which couldn't be refuted, which I thought at the time wouldn't be a hard thing to do. But it led me to the realization how indoctrinated I was. 

 

Now, applying that same level of scrutiny that I though was a central part of science to science-based disciplines like biology, I find this level of scrutiny isn't really shared by other students, or it seems, practitioners.  I see the same resistance, the same personal attacks from people who consider themselves intellectuals, because their religion of establishment science is attacked. If anything I think having been brainwashed for so long, and then coming to a realization how the same techniques are used absolutely everywhere, even in "science" (where the scientific method is often not applied), makes one very cautious, and heavily skeptical.

 

Couldn't agree more that the root of the problem is being caused by mostly public ignorance. There is a nasty vendetta most people hold against those "white lab coat kitten killing evil scientists", and it does little to foster an environment where people would wish to become scientists for the public good, to find true causes and cures of disease at their own personal sacrifice. How could they when they're vilified so much for making such life sacrifices? You're up against people who can't appreciate the need to kill mice to save millions of human lives later. The logic does not connect for them.

 

This wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't so much interference in science by lobbying groups and government, which the public, as you say have a strong influence over. The end result is what we have currently. Billions wasted. And I'd strongly argue, it would be better if those billions were never spent in the first place. The amount of false data and studies there are makes separating the truth from the chaff nearly impossible. Editors routinely fail (most of the time) to filter out studies that later are found to be false. And it's not entirely their fault either. How can a few editors be expected to pass or fail a study that involves vast amounts of equipment, time, laboratory personnel, statisticians and other domain-experts? They aren't given the resources, personnel or equipment to properly verify whether the study should be published or not. Heck, they're not even paid at all!

 

One part of the solution to this dire state of affairs is for replication to be taken much, much more seriously, with appropriate teams of full-time replication experts (biology scientists, statisticians, technicians), all highly paid, dedicated to this task full time. And even then, that would just be a small part of the dent in this bigger problem. You then have the pharmaceutical companies purposefully withholding or fabricating research results, with domain experts doing so in ways that most people would never be able to discover them.

 

The whole problem is rooted in science becoming a career move instead of a pursuit of knowledge. Until this is changed back to the way things were in the days of the Newtons and Descartes, any brilliant mind is strongly encouraged to tread down a path that serves little use to science and knowledge discovery, and many uses to politics and industry. I think personally the entire concept of ingesting chemicals hoping for brain state changes is antiquated. But it's a perfect business model for any form of recurring income. And in any business or marketing course, we know that recurring income and upsells is the most basic form of recurrent revenue. 

 

Imagine if we had real scientists with the funding that has been invested into medicine and biology, instead of this mass produced cargo cult brand we have currently. We would be altering these states of mind permanently via brain implants and electrical therapies. Even for aging, how can the heads of so many government departments, and leading scientists "not get it" that by curing aging, all the myraid of neurological disorders will, in turn, be cured too, as the underlying process of the nervous system is understood, instead of one isolated disease after another isolated disease; with little underlying holistic thinking of how to connect all the dots missing. Why would they connect the dots? That would put everyone out of a job.


Edited by littlePawn, 27 July 2015 - 08:01 AM.

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#10 Duchykins

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 08:10 PM

That would put everyone out of a job.

 

 

Hear, hear!



#11 ImmortalSpace

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 12:00 PM

Well this sounds like a great idea, but what about more broadly anxiety in general for people with Generalized Anxiety disorder.

 

I think this will be interesting, OP message me if you are interested in my project Portal to gather this data when it comes about.



#12 littlePawn

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 04:31 AM

Seems a lot of SA, generalized anxiety, neuroticism is linked to the serotonin transporter. But my experience with SSRI's hasn't been good. Ineffective, emotional blunting, definitely not a transformation into the care-free extrovert I aspire to be.
 
Is anyone else in a similar basket?
 
Seems the SLC6A4 (gene encoding the serotonin transporter) is of immense relevance - http://www.ncbi.nlm..../PMC3487694/#R2 and http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3060567/
 
In particularrs25531. Yet rs25531 shows a nocall, or rather a -- (no record) in my 23andme results. rs25532 is shown however, for which I am heterozygous. It is also of undetermined relevance it seems according to the studies, with less mention.
 
Would anyone else with be willing to compare their rs25531 and rs25532? And if you could please give a quick overview of your anxiety situation. Even if you don't have anxiety it would be great nevertheless as a reference.
 
On another note,has anyone had a read through the first linked study? If so, what are your thoughts on how we could determine whether we are of L (long) or S (short) genotype for 5-HTTLPR? Since this doesn't seem to be measured directly in the SNPs.


Edited by littlePawn, 01 August 2015 - 04:37 AM.


#13 Duchykins

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 06:45 AM

Hey can we get a list of places to submit our raw data too?  Including pay sites.  I know different ones sometimes only look for certain things.

 

And yeah whenever I get mine I'll share whatever with whoever.  It looks like it will be a month or so till I get it.



#14 littlePawn

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 07:27 AM

Not sure of any for anxiety unfortunately. Main ones I'm familiar with are prometheus and geneticgene. Problem with them is a lot of the studies reporting the SNPs, such as the ones in snpedia, lack replicated clinical evidence. Even the references contain in the studies I linked to above in the meta-analyses are highly conflicting.



#15 Al Capacino

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 08:28 AM

I've been debating having a 23andme test for some time due to my chronic anxiety and depression issues with lack of an effective enough treatment.
This sounds like an interesting idea so I think I will go ahead and following results will contribute.

#16 littlePawn

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:15 AM

That would be great Al Capacino. If we can get 30 people with chronic anxiety, that should allow us to form a large enough statistical sample to link a specific mutation to our condition outside the general population. From there we can see how to supplement that mutation.



#17 littlePawn

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:31 AM

Okay so to get things started, I spent today downloading all of the genotype frequencies from the hap-map project and compiled them into one database. I also converted my 23andme snp's into database format and joined the two together as tables. Not sure if there's a programmer in the midst here, but we could develop a blueprint so when people submit their 23andme data, we can run some sort of program that will automatically compare all of our alleles with one another and look for commonalities? I could do this myself but it will probably take me months to get something working as I'm not an experienced programmer.

 

Now.. on to the actual data. So in essence, here is what I did: I compiled the database to show all of my genes alongside that of the reference hapmap, along with their frequencies. I then sorted via frequency to identify gene types that are very rare. To my surprise, I have thousands of genes with less than 1% commonality in the population. I'm not sure if this is common in everyone or rare, but I find it bewildering nevertheless. This makes the project more interesting than I first imagined. I thought at first we'd be trying to identify some genes we share that only maybe 10% of the population has, but I'm seeing some frequencies as low 0.001%! I realize with a large enough sample this might not be statistically meaningful, but it could be.

 

Imagine if a lot of us shared some of these particular rare gene snp's and we found people without anxiety didn't have them? That would be huge. But I don't know what I'm talking about really as this is the first time I've done something like this. Is there a geneticist or anyone well versed in genetics that might give some insight into this? 

 

As it stands I think we should proceed with the plan. Compare our 23andme results and see if we share any of these extremely rare alleles with each other compared to people without anxiety. I'm more excited than ever now, I think we're on to something here.


Edited by littlePawn, 02 August 2015 - 10:44 AM.


#18 Duchykins

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 05:13 AM

My initial raw data is back.

 

Genetic Genie spit this out:

 

Homozygous mutations  (I'm fucked)

 

  • MAO-A R297R       TT
  • CBS A360A       AA
  • MTHFR A1298C       GG

 

Heterozygous  mutations  (maybe fucked)

  • COMT V158M     AG
  • COMT H62H    CT
  • VDR Bsm    CT
  • VDR Taq    AG
  • MTR A2756G     AG
  • MTRR A66G      AG
  • MTRR K350A     AG
  • BHMT-08       CT

Edited by Duchykins, 10 September 2015 - 05:13 AM.


#19 littlePawn

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 06:07 AM

Looks like you may need to supplement methylfolate + methylcobalmin.

 

Now depending on how severe your social anxiety is (if you have it), I'd be very interested in the following SNPs that have no clinical relevance, yet with the three people I've tested so far with SA, all fall within a rare genotype: 

 

rs6685406 rs6681347 rs6663882 rs10754855 rs1775416

 



#20 Duchykins

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 01:25 PM

rs6685406     AA

 

rs6681347    TT

 

rs6663882     AG

 

rs10754855    CT

 

rs1775416    AG

 

 

I've been on the methyls for more than a year now.   I even went through the potassium crash toward the beginning.   



#21 Duchykins

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 02:09 PM

I'm unsure of the usefulness of some of these reports since all of them tell me I should have problems with high blood pressure when I actually have the opposite, borderline hypotension, which is a factor in my migraines.  However, I found about 8 mutations that have been linked to migraine (unsurprisingly) , dozens to bipolar, depression, ocd and schizophrenia, and a few to autism and adhd.

 

Currently I'm looking for the ones that deal with metabolic dysfunction.

 

It seems caution is highly advised when interpreting these things, since one mutation could easily be affected or offset by another mutation.

 

I do have some kind of anxiety disorder.  It seems a blend of generalized and PTSD.  Only the PTSD is assured because of my hypervigilance.  Other anxieties I have are definitely related to my deep-seated and long relationship with anger  (getting angry triggers the worst of my anxiety because I have to struggle to hide it and control myself, and manifests as serious chest pain, suppressed breathing and heart palpitations).  Seems the MAO A  TT plays a role in my anger which I did not expect to see in any results.   I have problems socializing but I don't think there is only one underlying cause.  Ativan helps keep me calm in class and makes my social interactions flow more smoothly and pleasantly.   I only do it when I have no other choice; I have different coping mechanisms now as a 33 yr old.  I distinctly recall a time when I reacted differently to groups of people, for example one New Year's Eve my husband and I went down to the wharf to check out the parties and wait for fireworks, and I physically balked at entering the crowds.  It took about 6-7 minutes before I could make myself enter them.  And no I did not myself the entire night, I was too busy trying to pretend to be normal as my husband could have a good time.  It took me about 4 days to recover from it (meaning I completely withdrew, read books or whatever, and didn't go outside or talk to anyone).

 

 

It's hard to say whether it is exactly social anxiety because of my sensory processing problems and Asperger's. 

 

Today I'm going to skip my methionine, glycine and taurine doses and see what happens.   Hopefully, the loss of taurine will not trigger migraine.  I'm also going to skip the extra 5mg methylcobalamin spray and take only the active B from Swanson's.  Maybe kick the riboflavin and thiamine up to 300 mg from 200 mg (I should be trying the riboflavin @ 400 mg anyway because that was the dose used in migraine studies but I'm afraid of it - lol anxiety bites).


Edited by Duchykins, 10 September 2015 - 02:31 PM.


#22 littlePawn

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 03:21 PM

Very interesting.

 

It seems you have only have 2 of those rare ones, but nevertheless this may just be statistical noise or something more.

 

rs6685406 AA 0.12 

rs10754855 CT 0.17

 

The column on the right is the genotype frequency in the caucasian (CEU) group.

 

May I ask your race? So far I've put together a group of 3 other caucasians that also share those two polymorphisms according to http://hapmap.ncbi.n..._details_phase3 and http://hapmap.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-perl/snp_details_phase3?name=rs6685406&source=hapmap28_B36&tmpl=snp_details_phase3

 

If you also fit into this group it would make 4 of us with a relatively rare mutation here. These polymorphisms occur both less and more frequently in other races, so it might be hard to draw conclusions outside of the CEU group for now.

 

If this is the case, and I assume you feel the need to "recharge" at times due to introversion (based on your account of the fireworks gathering), it will be interesting to find another person with social anxiety type symptoms and see if they too fall into one of these rare polymorphisms.


Edited by littlePawn, 10 September 2015 - 03:22 PM.


#23 Duchykins

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 09:56 PM

French mostly, some other European mix, with a lil Hoopa.

 

I do have to recharge, I'm pretty infamous for it.  I usually take a whole day and a half to recover from weekly chem lab, stuff like that.



#24 littlePawn

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 10:02 AM

Alright, anyone here with 23andme results and Social Anxiety also wiling to share their rs6685406 and rs10754855  polymorphisms?



#25 123apk

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 11:39 PM

Why would you open a post like this with a BS line like "science has failed us"?  What do you think genotyping and sequencing are?

 

In any case, I have about another month to wait for me 23andme results.  I'm impatient.   :dry:   I'm willing to participate in this, though.

 

Why is it Western meds always seem to be the same sedating, masking types for social anxiety, like keeping is quiet and half asleep will help whereas Russia and Asia made meds people could actually function on?

I think the question is more why were there two seemingly different approaches and why is western (particularly American) medicine trying to dope us down, keep us quiet and make us addicted and dependent whereas the rest of the world seeks to address the problems and keep functionality?



#26 123apk

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 11:42 PM

This shit bugs me because I'm working towards a degree in evolutionary biology and have always been a nerd, so my first introduction to junk science was, of course, creationism, nearly 15 years ago.  ID creationism and its plethora of fake and junk journals especially.  Now I seem to see it in almost every subject.

 

Wait, what? Creationism is like a science or something in America? I thought it was just something you got taught in religious class like how god created the world and stuff like in the rest of the world?


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#27 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 02:12 PM

As I wrote in a similar thread (maybe it was this?) - it's much more complicated than this and you are completely forgetting to look at how often these mutations occur. Any mutation with a frequency over 33.3% (don't ask me about this number, it's what Promethease uses) is likely insignificant. Any mutation with a frequency over 50% is very likely insignificant - when it comes to anxiety. No, supplementing with B12 and tetrahydro folate, and yada yada, won't do you anything - you'll only end up wasting your money. Trust me, I've tried these things myself and they're absolutely useless even in supraphysiological dosages unless, in the case of b12, you have a problem with too few red blood cells or something similar. I encourage you to try exercising and stop masturbation. It seems a mix of too much masturbation and not enough physical activity induces this feminine-minded "oh my gosh what are they thinking about me. Do I look good I this shirt?" type of thinking that is often seen in teenagers as well. A lot of guys feel feminine if they jerk it too much. Laugh all you want, over-masturbation is a sickness that is plaguing the modern world and causing lots of unnecessary ailments such as anxiety, lack of energy, lack of desire to complete tasks, and so on and so forth; and we Westerners don't even have high enough test. or dht compared to Middle Eastern people to account for our over-masturbation, rather it's the product of pornography viewing since early in life. If you can't stop masturbation because you're addicted to it, give me a PM and I'll share with you substances that I've tried that work to reduce or completely remove my own sexual desires without negatively effecting exercise performance and so on. As for 23andme, as I've said in multiple threads, it's inadequate to diagnose most things since 23andme only covers a tiny part of a person's genome, and doesn't even fully sequence every gene even, so it's not just that many genes are not sequenced at all, rather it's that the genes that are sequenced are not sequenced fully in some or most cases. If you want your full genome sequenced, fullgenomes.com does it very cheap compared to earlier prices. You'll need at least 10x coverage to trust the genetic data for health diagnoses (no I am not affiliated with them and I haven't used their services before. It was just an example.)
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#28 littlePawn

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 09:08 AM

Hi RatherBeUnknown, thanks for your contribution.

 

Regarding the population frequencies, for the two listed SNP's toward the end of the thread which I'm curious about these occur in 12%, 17% of the CEU population respectively. Regarding the genes. My understanding is statistics itself doesn't rely on a full dataset to draw inferences. If we have enough random samples over any large enough subset of the entire dataset (23andme snps vs the entire genome) we should be able to draw conclusions with high confidence. I'd be very curious if you could further explain biochemically or statistically why this isn't possible. A mutation in a certain codon sequence that is evident within those only having a certain trait and not in others would definitely provide direction for future investigation in my opinion.

 

No masturbation problem here. But I agree with your take on vitamin B12. I've tried it and am disappointed with the results. Anyway, if anyone within the CEU population group would like to share those two SNPs I mentioned earlier, and can also give an overview of their social anxiety (physical and psychological symptoms), it would be helpful.



#29 Junk Master

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 04:06 AM

Is it just masturbation, or does sex count?



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#30 Londonscouser

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 06:30 PM

Is it just masturbation, or does sex count?

 

I think it is just masturbation. I don't know why, but from personal experience I'm pretty confident that masturbation and sex with a women affect different neuronal pathways.

 

Oh and i think i do have like mildish social anxiety, but i can't be sure whether abstinence from masturbation reduces social anxiety for me... I've never abstained for longer then like 10 days lol... 







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