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Noots got Banned in the UK

noots

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Poll: Anarchy in the UK? (31 member(s) have cast votes)

Will this lead to anarchy and disrespect for government authority?

  1. Yes (18 votes [58.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.06%

  2. No (13 votes [41.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.94%

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#61 Kingsley

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:01 PM

1) Noots did not get banned.  Read the whole thread.

 

2) Don't feed the troll.  He is clearly fishing for "dislikes."


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#62 vtrader

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 04:19 PM

This is becoming a general trend now, though not related I've noticed the amazon and ebay in the uk their supplement variety has decreased a lot over the years. I remember two years ago amazon having a much wider selection and brands of several pages worth.

 


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#63 Turnbuckle

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 09:23 PM

1) Noots did not get banned.  Read the whole thread.

 

 

 

 

Are you sure? Suppliers don't think so. One says the following (though the cutoff date has changed due to the delay in implementation)--

 

Initial Statement
 
 
From April 5th 2016 we will no longer be supplying the following products:
 
Adrafinil
Coluracetam
Centrophenoxine
Noopept
Phenibut
Phenylpiracetam
Pramiracetam
Sunifiram
Oxiracetam
Selank & Semax
 
We are withdrawing these products from sale as a result of the “Psychoactive Substances Act” that will come into force on April 6th.  
 
 

 

 


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#64 YOLF

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 10:16 PM

 

1) Noots did not get banned.  Read the whole thread.

 

 

 

 

Are you sure? Suppliers don't think so. One says the following (though the cutoff date has changed due to the delay in implementation)--

 

Initial Statement
 
 
From April 5th 2016 we will no longer be supplying the following products:
 
Adrafinil
Coluracetam
Centrophenoxine
Noopept
Phenibut
Phenylpiracetam
Pramiracetam
Sunifiram
Oxiracetam
Selank & Semax
 
We are withdrawing these products from sale as a result of the “Psychoactive Substances Act” that will come into force on April 6th.  
 
 

 

 

 

 

Was there something specific that named the different products?


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#65 Turnbuckle

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 10:39 PM

 

 

 

 

Was there something specific that named the different products?

 

 

 

Yes. The law bans everything. Anything affecting a "person’s mental functioning or emotional state" is banned unless it receives a specific exception.


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#66 Kingsley

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 10:43 PM

It's quite reasonable for suppliers to be uncertain regarding the reach of the new law since there is some ambiguity.  I suspect these concerns will blow over in time.  I don't know this for sure.  Here's what I know for sure:

 

1)

The law does not apply to "any substance or combination of substances presented as having properties of preventing or treating diseases in human beings; or any substance or combination of substances that may be used by or administered to human beings with a view to . . . restoring, correcting, or modifying a physiological function by exerting a pharmacological, immunological or metabolic action, or making a medical diagnosis."

 

This language was included because parliament members did not want to ban traditional medicinal herbs and substances with a potential medicinal benefit.  I'm having a hard time thinking of a nootropic that does not arguably fall within this exemption.  Even the more exotic racetams were developed with their potential medicinal benefits in mind.  Let's assume though that some subset of nootropics falls outside the exemption.  Continue on to the other points below . . .

 

 

2) 

The parliament has stated in great detail and with great specificity (see previous post for link to report) that the purpose of the law is to target "legal highs," i.e. those "intoxicants analogous to traditional illicit drugs."  We discussed previously the principle that when a law is ambiguous, courts look to the legislative intent as an interpretative aid.  You'd likely have a very hard time convincing a court that the law prohibits a substance that cannot get you high and that is not analogous to a traditional illicit drug.

 

 

3)

The law is based on an almost identical law passed in Ireland in 2010.  Tellingly, no one ever attempted to apply this law to nootropics, only to serious designer drugs.  Further, the law failed miserably even for its stated purpose: there were only four successful prosecutions obtained over five years, all related to designer drugs.  I don't believe anyone has presented any reason or evidence to believe that the new English law will be applied differently.

 

 

4) 

In a previous post I discussed some evidentiary barriers to the state's obtaining a conviction under the law based on use of nootropics, and I believe I provided a link to an article discussing similar issues with the Irish law.  In short, based on the English (and American) criminal justice system and rules of evidence, it would be incredibly difficult to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt as is required for criminal convictions, that a particular nootropic meets the definition of a prohibited substance under the act since there is no scientific concensus regarding the vast majority of nootropics.  It's hard enough to obtain a conviction for serious designer drugs, which is precisely the reason that the Irish law crashed and burned (four total convictions in five years).

        


Edited by Kingsley, 04 April 2016 - 10:44 PM.

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#67 caruga

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 01:20 PM

Somehow this passed beneath my radar.  What, so now rosemary oil is banned too?  Proper laws should strive to be unambigious and not open to interpretation.  To do otherwise leads to unaccountable powers that can be abused and twisted to suit the caprice of the moment.  I can't think that this is what a representitive government does.  I would ask 'is guarana affected' but I know that nobody knows any better than I do.  A lawyer probably couldn't tell me  That's probably the whole point.  Sites are taking down their stock because they 'might be' affected.  THEY SHOULD KNOW, DAMNIT.


Edited by caruga, 05 April 2016 - 01:24 PM.

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#68 Turnbuckle

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 03:30 PM

Here's what I know for sure:

 

1)

The law does not apply to "any substance or combination of substances presented as having properties of preventing or treating diseases in human beings; or any substance or combination of substances that may be used by or administered to human beings with a view to . . . restoring, correcting, or modifying a physiological function by exerting a pharmacological, immunological or metabolic action, or making a medical diagnosis."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are taking these words out of context. Yes, they do give this definition of "medicinal product" and medicinal products are on the exempted list, but such products still have to be authorized. A manufacturer or vendor can't just claim it's a medicinal product.

 

The exempted list can be found on page 40 of the bill, but then you have to go to Human Medicines Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/1916) to discover how medicinal products are treated. This says, for example--

 

(15) For the purposes of this regulation and regulation 4 (special provisions for pharmacies etc), a
medicinal product is authorised if there is in force for the product—
(a) a marketing authorisation;
(b) a certificate of registration;
(c ) a traditional herbal registration; or
(d) an Article 126a authorisation.
 
 
 

 

Is any nootropic presently authorized as a medicinal product? Doesn't seem so or vendors wouldn't be pulling their products.

 


Edited by Turnbuckle, 05 April 2016 - 03:30 PM.

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#69 Kingsley

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 05:51 PM

No, you are conflating the two laws.  The Psychoactive Substances Act merely incorporates the same definition of "medicinal product" that is contained in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012.  Statutes do this all the time for the sake of consistency and to save space.  The fact that medicinal substance vendors have to obtain a license under the Human Medicines Regulations does not mean that a product that is not licensed cannot be a medicinal substance.

 

It would be like if you had one statute prohibiting dogs in certain areas and another statute requiring that dogs be licensed, and the first incorporated the definition of "dog" from the latter.  Just because a dog isn't licensed doesn't mean it's not a dog.

 

I can't comment on the licensing law or how much of a barrier it will pose to vendors who want to sell nootropics, what kind of showing they have to make to obtain a license, whether some exception applies, etc.  It may well pose a significant barrier, particularly for the more exotic nootropics.  Or it may just be that you check a box and you get your license.  I don't have this information.   

 

Regardless, the Psychoactive Substance Act is almost certainly not going to be applied to individual nootropics users even assuming that some fall outside the medical substance exception.  The licensing law could make things difficult on vendors of certain nootropics, but these will no doubt still be available to users via importation.  It will be a shame if some users have to turn to the grey market, but likely not a nootropic apocalypse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are taking these words out of context. Yes, they do give this definition of "medicinal product" and medicinal products are on the exempted list, but such products still have to be authorized. A manufacturer or vendor can't just claim it's a medicinal product.

 

The exempted list can be found on page 40 of the bill, but then you have to go to Human Medicines Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/1916) to discover how medicinal products are treated. This says, for example--

 

 

 


Edited by Kingsley, 05 April 2016 - 05:59 PM.

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#70 Turnbuckle

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 06:21 PM

The fact that medicinal substance vendors have to obtain a license under the Human Medicines Regulations does not mean that a product that is not licensed cannot be a medicinal substance.

 

 

I think it's like this: If you sell your nootropic without claiming it's a medicinal product, then it is banned by the new law, but if you claim it is a medicinal product, then you are covered by another law and must get authorization to sell it. 


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#71 wanderlust

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 12:45 PM

 

The fact that medicinal substance vendors have to obtain a license under the Human Medicines Regulations does not mean that a product that is not licensed cannot be a medicinal substance.

 

 

I think it's like this: If you sell your nootropic without claiming it's a medicinal product, then it is banned by the new law, but if you claim it is a medicinal product, then you are covered by another law and must get authorization to sell it. 

 

the same laws cover chocolate , and popular energy drinks such as   redbull which contains( taurine )  i also have a perfume that contains prognolone&oxytocin 

 

some one needs to take a list to nootropics and vitamins to there local police station and ask which ones are naughty and which ones are allowed for sale 

 

i am currently researching a cure for phantom-limb pain in amputees if it works i will be getting into contact with law enforcement personnel before introducing it into the public domain even though its main ingredients are legal.

in truth this conversation is only related to the sale of noots 


Edited by wanderlust, 06 April 2016 - 12:48 PM.

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#72 wanderlust

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 01:17 PM

i would see this more as an opportunity than as a problem  

 

if a nootseller in France or Europe where to join forces with an English man such as myself, they could set up a company based in Europe with an English office(purely tech support / eBay listings  )

selling noots to the English market which are shipped directly and quickly (24hours)  from Europe, as far as i am aware this remains 100% legal. 

 


Edited by wanderlust, 06 April 2016 - 01:19 PM.


#73 Turnbuckle

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 01:27 PM

i would see this more as an opportunity than as a problem  

 

if a nootseller in France or Europe where to join forces with an English man such as myself, they could set up a company based in Europe with an English office(purely tech support / eBay listings  )

selling noots to the English market which are shipped directly and quickly (24hours)  from Europe, as far as i am aware this remains 100% legal. 

 

 

You might want to read the act before you go further--

 

(1) In this Act “prohibited activity” means any of the following activities—
 (a) producing a psychoactive substance that is likely to be consumed by individuals for its psychoactive effects;
 (b) supplying such a substance;
 (c ) offering to supply such a substance;
 (d) importing such a substance;
 (e) exporting such a substance;
 (f) assisting or encouraging the carrying on of a prohibited activity listed  in any of paragraphs (a) to (e).
(2) The carrying on by a person of an activity  of a prohibited activity listed in any of paragraphs (a) to (e).

 

 

 


Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 April 2016 - 01:28 PM.

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#74 wanderlust

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 01:53 PM

my personal goals are a little larger than becoming the supplier of noots to the uk 

 

this new law does however entirely open the market up to foreign company's

 

a current European supplier could do the entire thing with out any English offices or suppliers

simply by warning English costumers about the legal status of there orders 

 

which i expect is what will happen in due course

 

its sad that a law which is meant for  recreational drugs will result in the noot business going abroad  

 

the brilliance of capitalism is free-market system upon which it is built  

every time it is restricted or manipulated it grows weaker

 

the real result of this law will be less tax paid to the uk government and more crime taking place

 

at the same time I can understand the reasoning for this law

 

if some new magic  substance is introduced to the recreational drug scene and taken by teenagers everywhere which was popular but is totally untested on humans what could the outcome could be? i am thinking mass  zombies , werewolves,or even  telepathy  ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by wanderlust, 06 April 2016 - 02:25 PM.


#75 caruga

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 02:08 PM

 

(1) In this Act “prohibited activity” means any of the following activities—
 (a) producing a psychoactive substance that is likely to be consumed by individuals for its psychoactive effects;
 (b) supplying such a substance;
 (c ) offering to supply such a substance;
 (d) importing such a substance;
 (e) exporting such a substance;
 (f) assisting or encouraging the carrying on of a prohibited activity listed  in any of paragraphs (a) to (e).
(2) The carrying on by a person of an activity  of a prohibited activity listed in any of paragraphs (a) to (e).

 

 

 

 

Goodbye theanine?

 

 


 

the brilliance of capitalism is free-market system upon which it is built  

every time it is restricted or manipulated it grows weaker

 

QFT.

 

People can regulate themselves.  Especially today, in the age of information.



#76 basicallyyes

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 03:52 PM

Even if this did lead to anarchy nothing would come of it. The number of people who take noots in the UK is relatively small, and the number of those people who would rebel would be even smaller. The truth is if something starts taking away from the sales of pharmaceuticals to a significant degree it will be banned regardless of what type of supplement it is, from b-vitamins to piracetam.

 

IMO This is part of the reason why the best noots should be kept "underground" and not blogged about. It should walk the line between helping people who need it but not becoming something people use just to get an extra boost when they are otherwise healthy.


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#77 sativa

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:54 PM

From a reddit post:

While the act has been signed into law the government is having problems finding a company that can supply, hold and test against reference samples of the initially named substances banned by the act. In order for a substance to be classified as one of those controlled this needs to be in place, so while the law is in place it is unenforceable as a given compound would have to be matched to a non existent reference sample, so nothing is controlled yet.


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#78 GHPI Matt

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 01:12 PM

I could be wrong but I think the act has been delayed:

http://www.independe...e-a6959986.html



#79 sativa

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 01:28 PM

Yes delayed "indefinitely" I think :)

They need to work out the logistics of enforcing the act, amongst other things.
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#80 Keizo

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 09:18 AM

 

 

Please sign this petition for God Emperor Trump to invade Britain: https://www.change.o...conquer-england


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#81 Hotforpips

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 05:03 PM

http://www.huffingto...4b05c31e571ae4e

26th May apparently

#82 Turnbuckle

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 08:43 PM

From the article linked to above--
 
Last week, analysis by the Office for National Statistics said deaths linked to legal highs had more than tripled in two years.
 
The number increased over a 10-year period from 2004, with a total of 76 recorded during that time frame in England and Wales...
 
“Psychoactive substances shatter lives and we owe it to all those who have lost loved ones to do everything we can to eradicate this abhorrent trade,” Minister Karen Bradley said.

 

 

 

So 7.6 deaths a year for all these substances combined, and it becomes abhorrent, while smoking is whitelisted even though it causes 100,000 deaths a year in Britain--more than ten thousand times as many deaths.

 

​Looks like Britain is a giant loony bin where the loonies are in charge.


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#83 sativa

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:54 PM

 

At the very moment this recent mailing was sent out, we received the official announcement that the Psychoactive Substances Act will come in effect on May 26th.

 
"The UK will be the first country in the world to put in place a rigorous system of testing to demonstrate that a substance is capable of having a psychoactive effect, providing evidence to support civil action and prosecutions."
 
We hope that rigorous testing of pychoactive substances may improve the minds of the people in power, while they are on it. But sadly and simply, the above news means that we can ship you your order for the next 2 WEEKS only.
 

 

The conservative UK government has cognitive issues. Perhaps they should try piracet...- OH, wait, they can't.


Edited by sativa, 06 May 2016 - 09:56 PM.

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#84 wanderlust

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 11:57 PM

Quoting "Maya Ethnobotanicals "(i am also on their mailing list) on a forum about nootropics  Tut tut

 

there is a very  big difference between the two markets and reasona why the law applys diffrently to the two.

 

Such as people like myself with learning disabities who can live normal lives with the aid  of noots

 

 

 

At the very moment this recent mailing was sent out, we received the official announcement that the Psychoactive Substances Act will come in effect on May 26th.

 
"The UK will be the first country in the world to put in place a rigorous system of testing to demonstrate that a substance is capable of having a psychoactive effect, providing evidence to support civil action and prosecutions."
 
We hope that rigorous testing of pychoactive substances may improve the minds of the people in power, while they are on it. But sadly and simply, the above news means that we can ship you your order for the next 2 WEEKS only.
 

 

The conservative UK government has cognitive issues. Perhaps they should try piracet...- OH, wait, they can't.

 

 



#85 sativa

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 11:42 AM

Quoting "Maya Ethnobotanicals "(i am also on their mailing list) on a forum about nootropics Tut tut

"Tut tut" you say? - well, not really!! The point is the new information about UK law which has potential to impact the nootropics market etc

As an aside, i'm not ashamed or feel a need to hide my my connection to that ethnobotanical vendor or use of ethnobotanicals, many such as kanna, voacanga and Syrian rue have nootropic potential, and iboga's pharmacology is highly interesting and useful.

Edited by sativa, 07 May 2016 - 11:44 AM.


#86 wanderlust

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 01:02 PM

Can you sight any studys to Support your asserstion  that  kanna, voacanga , Syrian rue and iboga have any cogative enhancing qualities  and furthermore that they have no negative side effects a prerequsite for somthing to be considered a noot

such as intoxication (a side effect of all three )

however,  iboga holds promise in treating opiate addiction
and syrian rue can be used as an opate alternatve for periods of time
there is lots of evidence to suggest that
 in the correct environment as part of rituals or in a therputic environment with trained professionals and with safeguards in place  all three could be used therapeutically  and enhance mental health and mental wellbeing  

 however to suggest that nootropics be associated with them being taken outside of the safety of such an environment is irresponsible
 
 


Edited by wanderlust, 07 May 2016 - 01:03 PM.


#87 Hotforpips

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 01:38 PM

Will anything be legal? I personally import the majority of noots from the us via powder city. So now I take it come the 26th May I'm some sort of criminal if try to do this?! I can understand why we don't want kids smoking synthetic cannabis ect and the damage these substances can do, but this appears to be out of all proportion. Wonder how much money is now going to be wasted enforcing this new law instead research to improve peoples lives. Bizzare and worrying to live in the UK these days.
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#88 sativa

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 04:56 PM

Can you sight any studys to Support your asserstion that kanna, voacanga , Syrian rue and iboga have any cogative enhancing qualities and furthermore that they have no negative side effects a prerequsite for somthing to be considered a noot

such as intoxication (a side effect of all three )


You can simply look at their pharmacology to gain insight into each ethnobotanical I mentioned. Remember that dosage can be adapted to minimise psychoactive effects...

Piracetam gave me psychoactive intoxicating effects :)

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#89 sativa

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 06:56 PM

Each ethnobotanical I mentioned have all been mentioned in threads in this forum.

Piracetam contributed to me feeling psychoactive effects, but these were not intoxicating. Kanna wakes me up (PDE4 inhibition) and acts as an antidepressant (SSRI activity) - it's CB1 activity could be deemed intoxicating...paired with voacanga which contains a CB1 antagonist might somewhat negate this, but other voacanga indole alkaloids (that resemble ibogadine) would further complicate the pharmacology.
Iboga upregulates and balances many receptor systems.
Syrian rue can bring about a so called "flow state", contains harmalas which inhibit KYNA acid production (and act as AChE inhibitor) and also pinolene which rivals (and resembles) melatonin in many respects.

I think intoxication is an entirely subjective thing.

Also, the requirement that a nootropic have no proven negative side effects seems, in certain respects, very hard to gauge and prove - mainly due to lack of studies showing no negative effects over 20-30 years of use. Also, who should decide what the amount of time is to check that a compound has no negative side effects? This requirement is *almost* unrealistic

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#90 GHPI Matt

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 10:42 PM

Does anyone have official conformation noots are to be banned? How about modafinil?







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